Toyota on the mend?

gagrice

I was kind of excited to try out what the Japanese have to offer in a modern sedan. Several things turned me off. The back seat was far from passenger friendly. It was not as roomy as the specs would have you believe. The key fob was near useless locking and unlocking the doors. Budget said that was common with the Accords. Then the road noise was horrible. Evansville has a lot of concrete highways and they were the worst. Really shows the poor engineering of the Accord. It was actually worse than my son in laws Yaris cheapo econo box. I did average 28 MPG for the entire two weeks, city and highway about equal. I did not think it handled any better than my wife's 21 year old Lexus. I guess I just expected more from Honda.

ateixeira

Sounds like a global problem.

ateixeira

I'd like to try a new Sonata, even the base model had DI and a 6 speed. Next time I rent a sedan I'd ask for one of those (or an Optima).

gagrice

Sounds like a global problem.

It is a big World Wide problem. Whether it is your iPhone or the roses on your table. There is a good chance that some poor soul was working his or her tail off in less than safe conditions, for very little money.

We should expect countries like the USA and Japan to be better than most. However there are sweat shops in NYC and Los Angeles that are as bad or worse than slave labor operations in China.

ateixeira

Sad but true.

Let's see better labor standards for suppliers whose products end up in our hands.

snowallergy

I have an 01 camry, same generation. Mine has been trouble free for 176,000 miles and still going strong. But then again, I maintain it. People who have a lot of problems with their cars often don't take care of them.

ateixeira

176,000 miles?

That's impossible, SUA should have killed you about 9 or 10 times by now.

I see dead people....

lemko

Speaking of unmaintained, I saw a late model BMW 745i billowing blue smoke at lunchtime today. I pity the owner! He's going to get a repair bill that makes the deficit appear modest.

ateixeira

This is why a new one costs $90,000 but you can buy a 3 year old used one for about 12 bucks.

fintail

I think a 745 has to be at least 6 years old (going back to 2002 IIRC), so who knows what has happened to it.

When the engine fails, the car is a total loss. Nobody wants to mess with an early idrive Bangled 7.

lemko

I imagine the owner is some poor sucker who bought it from a Buy Here Pay Here lot in a marginal Lower NE Philly neighborhood thinking he could look rich for cheap. You can't do German on a shoestring budget. Even a modern VW might be challenging for a person of modest means, (an old Bug is the exception).

ateixeira

You can't do German on a shoestring budget

I'm not even sure if you can do Scandinavian (Volvo/Saab) on a shoestring budget.

Go for a basic late 80s/early 90s pre-OBDII econobox with a manual transmission. If the clutch goes you could always park facing downhill to jump it.

fintail

No doubt it is a neglected car, probably an abused ex-lease vehicle that broke a few wallets and ended up in that skid row dealer. You can't do German on that budget - heck, many modern VWs might be just as troublesome or more than a 7er, you really can't even do Lexus on that budget - fail to maintain the car, and see what happens. That person should probably be driving an aged Camcord or maybe a larger domestic car.

ateixeira

Pre-ODBII because an out-of-tune car won't pass smog.

snowallergy

I started looking into BMW's awhile back. Then I read the threads on the problems they have. Whaaaat?? If the price doesn't cure someone from wanting one, the unreliability and high cost of repairs will.

I see tons of camrys 10 years older than mine on the streets here in Fl. Don't see many older american or european cars at all. Unless those broken down on the side of the road count..?

ateixeira

Let's follow the (il)logic of this thread....

FL means lot of retirees means boring cars means everyone drives a beige Camry.

lemko

An aged Camcord or large domestic is a lot more forgiving of neglect.

snowallergy

Believe it or not, the seniors like lincoln town cars and rear wheel drive, big american cars. The young people refer them to as old people cars. Mostly the ones driving the camrys are mostly younger to middle aged. I live in Pa half the year and there's lost of 4 wd subaru up there.

busiris

I just returned from visiting the traveling Motor Trend car show in Greenville, SC.

I primarily went to take a look at the much-touted Volt, but to my surprise, it was roped off and you couldn't get within 15 feet of it. I have gotten more detail from pictures of the car than from seeing it in person.

But, just to stay on topic, Toyota had a large presence there, and I was able to get some really good looks at their products... especially the #2 and #4 Prius(s).

Also saw the Cruze close-up. Light years ahead of the vehicle it replaced... I think it will do extremely well.

lemko

Dang! Don't you hate that? I hope I can get a good look at the new Buick Regal at the Philadelphia show this year. Last year, it was roped off and on a platform. I most definitely need to see the Volt up close. Was the Nissan Leaf there?

imidazol97

Just go to your local dealer to see the Regal. I was sitting in one months ago. Great car.

busiris

For some reason, there was no Nissan, BMW, MB or Volvo representation.

I did see the Buick's up close, and was also impressed by the Lucerne. And, they had a new Camaro convertible.... also roped off.

There were tons of GMC trucks there as well.

ateixeira

Yeah, and a used town car is a bargain, since they depreciate like rocks falling off a cliff.

Subaru's market share in Vermont is 14 times what it is in Florida. When I drive up to New England there seems to be a dealer on every exit of I-95, it's incredible.

ateixeira

Can you clarify? You were able to sit inside new Prius models already? I'm shocked if a Prius V is open to the public?

DC Auto Show starts Jan 28.

I like the Cruze interior design, outside less so. I'm also surprised they went with an iron block (as did the Volt). And why give the Eco model a smaller gas tank, erase the range advantage it could have?

It's good but GM could do better, they should do better.

deltheking

GM is just a terrible mess. They just cant be competitive or atleast par. That wont help. They have to be much better than the competition, class leading and with good pricing. They just cant be on par and win the sales. They have to be on top with their products. Dont see that happening any time soon inspite of recent Toyota's woes who are much ahead even at this stage. But I hope they do better and put pressure on imports and others. Customer wins :P

crkyolfrt

Doesn't the Eco have a dif rear axle? Sometimes axle and suspension config affects fuel tank volume. You see this often with cars that offer AWD as an option. The extra running gear infringes on room. Ironic, cuz the AWD's need the bigger tank to match range.

busiris

No Prius 5's were there... Only a 2 and a 4.

Regarding the Cruze, there's no question its a huge improvement over what it replaced.... Appearance-wise, anyway. I can't say as to its mechanics....

ateixeira

They can do it when they put for the effort:

Traverse/Enclave/Acadia
Equinox
Corvette Z06 and ZR1
Pickups
SS engine (poorly marketed, great engine)

Problem is you can't be complacent. Sonata made every midsize sedan seem dated. Ford EcoBoost pickups are a HUGE threat especially if gas keeps going up, and GM has not marketing their DI turbos well at all (no branding).

Volt has captured the public's attention. Sales are not even important. GM has *major* PR swagger right now. They are in the spotlight - a good time to update the Malibu and the pathetic Colorado - models that could sell in volume.

ateixeira

Could that be it? Why would the Eco's running gear be bigger and intrude on the gas tank?

I thought they made it smaller to lower the curb weight, and thus help with fuel economy.

crkyolfrt

Well, I might stand to be corrected, but pretty sure I read somewhere that they use a dif axle in the rr of the Eco. My guess would be cost cutting, or maybe yet another measure to reduce weight? I read they even left some sound insulation out to keep weight down.

ateixeira

Could it have been a different axle ratio? As in a taller final drive, to obtain that 40mpg EPA highway?

Probably.

busiris

Looks like the Colorado may be on its way out, judging from the sales figures...

From...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Colorado

Year Colorado Canyon Total U.S. sales
2004[9] 117,475 27,193 144,668
2005[9] 128,359 34,845 163,204
2006[10] 93,876 23,979 117,855
2007[11] 75,716 20,888 96,604
2008[11] 54,346 14,974 69,320
2009[12] 32,413 10,107 42,520
2010[13] 24,642 7,992 32,634

Also....http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/03/spied-again-next-generation-chevrol- et-colorado.html

crkyolfrt

Well, they do that also..except not taller as one would think. In fact it is lower. The Eco manual is not the same manual in the LS. In the Eco it has a lower final drive, but with a triple overdrive gearset. So I guess that is how they get the tall gearing back. I wonder if somehow there is less frictional loss in a triple overdrive gearset?

The normal Cruze uses a Z link rr suspension. But here is the wording, so in fact the rear end is dif on the manual tranny Eco.

"Z-link design not included on Cruze Eco model equipped with a manual transmission"

explorerx4

If someone has an anti-import agenda, but post something pertinent to this topic, I'm ok with it.
I will admit I was trying refocus the posts to the topic.

tlong

Toyota's U.S. lifecycle:

70's - small, scrappy, durable (except for rust)
80's - growing, reliable, innovative, getting more luxurious
90's - establishing leadership, quality, reliability
00's - growing fast, getting complacent, cheapening, losing sight of the ball
10's - recovering? or going downhill?

I suspect they will recover some but there are going to be other players nipping at their heels who are hungrier and more agile (Ford, Hyundai). Amazing that we can say that about Ford, kudos to Mulally. What a turnaround.

crkyolfrt

I don't think we should underestimate just how much of their new found success is due to not taking any bail out doe.
At a time of nil to slow economic recovery, this is one lone 'money saver' to the tax payer, but as such it sorta takes on a larger than real life numbers significance ....i.e the actual sum of its parts roll here being more creditworthy with the people's perception, than what the actual cost would have been if they (Ford) had been set on the shelf right beside GM saying me too please. It was a very very shrewd marketing ploy of Ford to go it alone at a time when the nation would appreciate the effort disproportionately to its actual value. That, combined with some of their seemingly competent and desirable recent model lineup, has proven to be an extremely successful strategy. For now at least..

But are people's memories really so poor that they forget some the things that Ford too, has pulled in the past?

But lest I be accused of raining on Ford's parade a little too much, they have done smart things in the past too. The first Ford Taurus is one of the smartest things they ever did since relenting to the use of hydraulically actuated brakes.

tlong

It was a very very shrewd marketing ploy of Ford to go it alone at a time when the nation would appreciate the effort disproportionately to its actual value.

It wasn't just a ploy. GM and C had no choice, and Ford was strong enough to get by without it.

crkyolfrt

Yes, poor choice of word i guess...but as Jerry Seinfeld says:

"People just don't say no to money! It's unnatural!"

(the episode when Elaine was hoping to rent the apt above Jerry, hahaha)

stever

I don't think we should underestimate just how much of their new found success is due to not taking any bail out doe.

But Ford did take a big hunk of federal money for electric cars in '09, about 5 or 6 months after Bush's loan to GM and Chrysler. $2.4 billion in grants. Plus another $5.9 billion in loans. (CNN and BNET).

smarty666

I know it might be farther for you man but you should think of going to the NY Auto Show instead of the Philadelphia one. Last year, they had two different Regals you could sit in at the NY one. I like the NY one slightly better b/c its much bigger and the layout more intuitive.

explorerx4

Look at it this way. How many hundreds of thousands of miles were on that FEH taxi?
My sister's Prius is only used as a family taxi, but it has these weird vibrations.
Someone I know at work also has a Prius. Great fuel mileage for their long commute in warm weather, but told they get about 1/2 that in the winter.
Oh yeah, a headlight replacement was $500.
I can go pretty far on $500 even in an SUV. Bulb is about $5. Not that I have needed one in 9 years.

explorerx4

Toyota didn't take any US bailout money.
Did they sell any more Tundra's?

imidazol97

>But Ford did take a big hunk of federal money for electric cars in '09, about 5 or 6 months after Bush's loan to GM and Chrysler. $2.4 billion in grants. Plus another $5.9 billion in loans.

Let's not forget that the government tax credit for buying hybrids went a long way to helping sell electric assist vehicles, including the Prius. And now there is one for Volt/Leaf.

stever

Toyota didn't take any US bailout money.
Did they sell any more Tundra's?

They did ok during Cash for Clunkers, and Tupelo loaded them up pretty good with incentives to convince them to build Blue Springs. They also asked for tons of dough from home but I don't know if they got it. (Business Week)

tlong

>But Ford did take a big hunk of federal money for electric cars in '09, about 5 or 6 months after Bush's loan to GM and Chrysler. $2.4 billion in grants. Plus another $5.9 billion in loans.

Let's not forget that the government tax credit for buying hybrids went a long way to helping sell electric assist vehicles, including the Prius. And now there is one for Volt/Leaf.

There IS a difference in the government trying to promote directions for certain technologies. If Toyota got the incentives for Prius, I'm sure GM or F could have gotten them too. Quite different than "My company is failing due to decades of mismanagement, please come help me please, as the banks that can't even manage their own books don't trust us enough for a loan!".

deltheking

FWIW, I have sat in a Prius/Altima hybrid/Crown vic taxis - and all of them are much less noisy and obviously have many miles on them. Regarding cold weather- some fuel mileage decrease may occur but certainly not half. Any Prius related forum- I have never seen 1/2 the decrease. And headlight costing $500-- really hard to believe that. It's not a MB/BMW. That is absolutely not true at all. the MSRP on an 08 Prius headlamp is $23.84 and a headlamp with HID is $150 - these are MSRP . Sale prices are $17 and $112. Nowhere close to $500. Where did that $500 come from ?? Here's a link to those OEM Prius headlamp prices:

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getJointLocator&siteid=2- 14311&chapter=&sectionids=3,2413&groupid=10009&subgroupid=20023&componentid=6070- 8&make=34&model=Prius&year=2008&catalogid=1&displayCatalogid=0

ateixeira

Oh yeah, a headlight replacement was $500.

That's probably because the Prius offers HIDs. Let's not criticize Toyota for offering premium features on an affordable car.

Also, was it damaged? If so why didn't insurance cover it? In MD that would have been covered.

I can't imagine a wear-and-tear bulb replacement cost that much.

Edit: just saw deltheking's post. If $500 was spent there must have been body damage as well, so no way was it just the headlight.

ateixeira

Did they sell any more Tundra's?

Tundra easily outsells the Titan and Ridgeline, FWIW.

The pickup market is a tough nut to crack - it's the most domestic-loyal segment by far.

Also - the Tundra and Sequoia sells at higher prices than similar domestic trucks.

ateixeira

Let's not forget that the government tax credit for buying hybrids went a long way to helping sell electric assist vehicles, including the Prius

...and the Ford Escape Hybrid, and anyone else who sold hybrids or diesels (Honda, Nissan, GM, VW, Chrysler, etc).

Toyota's credits expired a long, long time ago.

gagrice

If $500 was spent there must have been body damage as well, so no way was it just the headlight.

I think it is labor charges. I think I read they have to take body panels off to change the HIDs. I know I read lots of headlight complaints in the Prius threads over the years.