Toyota on the mend?

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  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Winter - even one as relentless as this one has been - is not without its pleasures. On a cold night, I like to pour a couple of fingers of Lagavulin into my favorite Scotch glass & add just a drop of water to open it up.

    Then I sip it slowly. Lagavulin has a distinctive peat-smoke taste that's perfect for nights when the sleet's bouncing off the windows.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    FWIW , I have been to Germany ,more specifically Munich,Frankfurt and Stuttgart ,but it has no relevance to this discussion. It's like me saying your comments imply you have never been to Japan.Not related to the topic at all.

    What I was saying was that BMW/MB do not have that exclusive luxury cache that they have in the US. It is as you said like GM. Makes everything for everyone. But in US they dont have that image. They are though of exclusively as a luxury marquee.

    And Cadillac a true luxury brand??Well, my local dealer sells Cadillacs and Kias under the same roof. It is a Cadillac,Kia and Mazda dealer. And the other one sells Cadillac and GMC. Both within 10 miles of each other in a town of 200k. Lincolns too are sold with Ford Focus and F150 next to each other. Not a sign of a luxury brand IMO.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    edited February 2011
    Ok, forgot to include that sports car category. Did not cross my mind at all.;)

    Right now- only 2 major players there among mainstream models- Camaro and Mustang. Only the Mazda Miata from the imports atleast gave a shot. But the main [non-permissible content removed] 3 had no players here. I dont know - thats kind of surprising. Especially as the sales numbers can be pretty good. :shades:

    Maybe the new Toyota FT86 is good. But I think thats one reason why Camaro and Mustang stagnated developmentally.Especially the Camaro. The Mustang too was new in 2001 and had a refresh in 2006 I think. The new redesign is in 2014. Thats a long time. They had no competition - so they stalled. Thats why I believe so much in competition and have no irrational or exclusive loyalty to a brand. I buy whatever is the best out there for me.. :P

    And by the way , my answer to your question is D . I hope I am correct ! :shades:
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Jim, Relax- no excitation here. :P

    So I suppose based on your statement - Lexus folks argue about books , BMW folks about music and Cadillac/Lincoln owners about Scotch !! Just kidding ! :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    my local dealer sells Cadillacs and Kias under the same roof.

    My local Lexus dealer is on the same lot with his Chevy and Subaru sales. Not sure of the relevance. He also is in the news a lot as the dealer that brought Toyota down. Bob Baker Lexus is also the reason it is very unlikely we would buy another Lexus. They are a lousy dealership. Lying salesmen and ripoff artists in the service department. They could take lessons from both the BMW and MB dealers. Both owned by Penske. Much higher classed operations.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Thats a sweeping generalization. There are many BMW/MB dealers with less than stellar ratings. The dealerships are privately owned. And FWIW, Lexus has been rated as one of the highest customer satisfaction brands in US. Also they may be owned by the same group, but I dont think they sell Chevy and Lexus on the same lot next to each other. What probably you are saying is that they are adjacent dealerships owned by the same person. Or atleast I am thinking so .

    My local dealers sells the Kia Forte/Rio next to Cadillacs on the same lots next to each other and not as an adjacent dealership. Big difference there.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    My local dealers sells the Kia Forte/Rio next to Cadillacs on the same lots next to each other and not as an adjacent dealership. Big difference there.

    So... Can we assume that its your opinion that a luxury brand is determined based on the dealership arrangement? Thats what it seems, anyway.

    I'm just attempting to understand the criteria you use to define what a luxury make is here...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2011
    And Cadillac a true luxury brand??Well, my local dealer sells Cadillacs and Kias under the same roof. It is a Cadillac,Kia and Mazda dealer. And the other one sells Cadillac and GMC. Both within 10 miles of each other in a town of 200k. Lincolns too are sold with Ford Focus and F150 next to each other. Not a sign of a luxury brand IMO.

    Well, I would guess most reasonable folks would define a Corvette as a superior sports car, yet Chevrolet sells them next to Aveos.

    While I see your point of view, I just don't agree with it.

    A BMW 7 series would still be a luxury car, even if it was sold on the same lot as Chevrolets, or entry-level 4-cylinder BMW's (or MINI Coopers).

    Dealerships don't make a car a luxury car. A Chevy Aveo would still be basic transportation even if the dealership sold only Aveos out of the Taj Mahal.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    That is one criteria. Absolutely, a luxury brand has to be a standalone dealership that cannot sell mainstream brands. Maybe luxury brands together like say Audi and MB but not a mainstream one like Ford or Honda. Luxury buyers have different expectations. That concept was seized by Lexus and they really nailed it. You cant sell the Hyundai Equus next to an Accent and claim you are a luxury brand.

    It may sound absurd , but thats the truth. Thats why the [non-permissible content removed] 3 created luxury brands. And its not the criteria I use - it's the industry wise criteria.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2011
    That is one criteria. Absolutely, a luxury brand has to be a standalone dealership that cannot sell mainstream brands. Maybe luxury brands together like say Audi and MB but not a mainstream one like Ford or Honda. Luxury buyers have different expectations. That concept was seized by Lexus and they really nailed it. You cant sell the Hyundai Equus next to an Accent and claim you are a luxury brand.

    It may sound absurd , but thats the truth. Thats why the [non-permissible content removed] 3 created luxury brands. And its not the criteria I use - it's the industry wise criteria.

    No.... That's YOUR definition and criteria.

    And, I agree.... It is an absurd idea.

    For example...http://www.gozimmerman.com/site/

    Ford, BMW. Hyundai, etc... all located on the same site...4001 First Avenue S.E. Cedar Rapids, IA 52402

    Are you saying BMW isn't considered a luxury brand?

    Here's a fairly good link for an industry explanation of luxury vehicles...

    http://wikicars.org/en/Luxury_car
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2011
    And FWIW, Lexus has been rated as one of the highest customer satisfaction brands in US.

    That is true and Toyota rates consistently in the bottom half. Maybe little brother should teach big brother some lessons in customer service. As far as Bob Baker it is one medium sized lot with separate building for Lexus. With their used cars combined in the middle. Very dated dealership. Looks the same as it did when my wife bought her LS400 there in 1989. Not sure if Bob Baker owned it back then. It was Lexus of El Cajon at the time.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2011
    Absolutely, a luxury brand has to be a standalone dealership that cannot sell mainstream brands. Maybe luxury brands together like say Audi and MB but not a mainstream one like Ford or Honda. Luxury buyers have different expectations.

    Ah, snob appeal is the criteria. We ran into that buying a new mattress. Two mattresses stores have the same Vera Wang Latex Beyond Tranquility. One the sales people wear ties and sport jacket. The other shorts or whatever. After going back and forth and shopping online we discover both stores are owned by the same people. The price at the snob appeal store was $1500 higher. We found it online for $1800 less than the fancy mattress store sticker price. Guess what, just like the bargain store they matched the online price and we had it delivered and set up the next day. We picked the snob shop because the satisfaction warranty was a year instead of only 90 days.

    Snob appeal is ok as long as you don't let it sway your thinking, that somehow it is better than the others. It all comes down to the almighty dollar. Personally I would rather beat the car dealer down to bare minimum and let them kiss some one else's behind while handing them a donut.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The LS hybrid is in the six figures. They ain't cheap...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2011
    What can they to make it trickle down? Really, not much from AMG and M cars seeps into plainer 3ers and Cs...but those still seem to have more excitement than an IS.

    Fair question, and I'm asking the same one.

    Lexus proved they can, now just do it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah but the Tundra has to try to appeal to flag waving blue collar types, which is easier said than done. 56% growth is amazing given current gas prices.

    And I don't think the Tundra was affected by the stop-sell last year, was it?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You're being silly, no?

    Toyota doesn't build a pony/muscle car because it wouldn't be in their character to do so. Live axles and pushrods? Only on the fake Camry NASCAR race car.

    Even when they do come out with a RWD coupe, it will be smaller and lighter, less brute force.

    And the Mustang is getting beat up by the Camaro, by the way.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Only the Mazda Miata from the imports atleast gave a shot

    Don't forget the Hyundai Genesis coupe, the RX8, 370Z, and G37 coupe. If you include AWD models the list doubles.

    None of those are muscle cars, though. Asia takes a different approach, and that's fine. Variety is the spice of life.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2011
    Young buyers are buying Lexus? Maybe the leased IS, and the younger parasites/kept women in their RX...but an LS is at least as much of a fogeymobile as the competition, and maybe even more so

    I find it hard to believe that the same person who wrote this is offended by the word "bigotries".

    On a lighter note, maybe you can laugh at yourself once you see these new ads from Audi's campaign against old/stuffy luxury:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/02/video-audi-super-bowl-ad-features-kenny-g-as-- - prison-warden/

    Mercedes and BMW are becoming "Snooki-Ized" in the U.S., a reference to MTV's "Jersey Shore," and the star castmember "Snooki" who drives a BMW.

    OUCH. That hurts!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    Is maybe 1 out of every couple hundred or more sold that hybrid version though? I think I've only seen one on the road. Possibly the most pointless luxobarge out there. It takes a lot less to get an S/7/A8 to 100K...heck, S65 is more like double six figures, probably doesn't sell many less than that LS hybrid either.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not sure about the spread, but the LS has gone way upscale and ain't the bargain it once was.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    edited February 2011
    There's a difference between bigotry and saying there's fire where there's smoke. I do find it funny that pointing out what RX drivers tend to be draws so much ire. Possibly the least accountable segment of humanity there. I find it hard to believe it is a crime to say it like it is.

    Audi's A8 ads are pretty funny...what kills me most is how much those things cost nowadays. Used to undercut the competition, not anymore really. The same stuffy money will buy those things as the competition...the opinion of Audi drivers on "Top Gear" is becoming reality on this side of the pond too....heading for the BMW image, and that's not a nice thing to say (like snooki and the Jersey style douches)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    It still undercuts the competition by tens of thousands...AFAIK the gap is not as large in other markets. Makes me wonder how it would fare if priced the same.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    They can make an interesting submodel...but I don't know if they've proved they can inject any life into the entire lineup...and to be honest, I don't know if the typical buyer would know or care either.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    pointing out what RX drivers tend to be

    How many RX owners have you met? Why so judgemental?

    I don't buy in to the stereotypes. The RX owner I know collects Corvairs, explain that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Could be a Euro vs. Yen thing, or import taxes, dunno.

    Plus, it's not like Lexus is selling value (Hyundai is with the Equus), it's the other way around - the Germans have retreated upscale. They're simply not able to market a large luxury car at the same price level as Lexus.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    Spend some time in the eastern suburbs of Seattle, you'll see what I mean. The things are desiger handbags on wheels driven by the idle stay at home set.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    In the EU anyway, I don't think there are any special import taxes on such cars. The Asian makes just price high in the upper end - the dorks at Hyundai tried to sell the Grandeur for over 40K Euro!

    The Germans don't have to play at that level, they can make their money at a higher price. That level seems to only exist in NA anyway.

    Who knows if the LS is even being sold at a profit here?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Spend some time on the East Coast and you'll see lots of Douches driving german cars, too. Or look at Hollywood, since that's closer to you - every other wreck I see seems to be in a Benz.

    You don't see me concluding all German car drivers are that way.

    Also - I bet RX owners had previous good experiences with a Toyota. Not so for the young douches buying Benzes.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That Grandeur is one generation away from, well, grandness.

    Let's also remember that in Germany you can get much smaller engines in an S class. Didn't Princess Di die in an S280?

    Edit: Yep...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Ah, snob appeal is the criteria.

    That may be a large determining factor in some areas, but not here in the Southeast.

    Folks buy what they deem a luxury brand product because of the product, not who is selling it.

    I guess I know over 200 folks who buy their cars new, with many of them being BMW's, MB,s, Lexus', etc., and I would bet $$$ that not a single one would say that the determining factor in buying their "luxury" car was due to dealership "exclusivity".

    Like you and your mattress purchase, you look for the best deal on the product you want to buy.

    I don't doubt that the country has some, however, that view the situation differently, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Or look at Hollywood, since that's closer to you

    Last time we drove Pacific Coast Highway on a Sunday afternoon I was amazed at the percentage of luxury vehicles. A high percentage were SUV types. And what caught my attention was the number of Range Rovers. The RX I believe is more popular in the lower class subdivisions. Laguna Beach and Marina del Rey seem to have more luxu barges than anyplace I have ever been. BMW 7s probably the top seller along that stretch of multi million dollar homes. I don't have any statistics only what I saw in that small window of time. Driving a Sequoia Limited felt like I was really in the cheap seats. Though I was bigger than most.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    It is what it is dude. If you disagree , fine - your opinion. The dealership you mention is the exception rather than the rule. And I imagine even though they are on the same lot-- each dealership is different in the sense that each one has it's own lobby,service center ,waiting area etc. I dont think all makes have the same service area and a Ford is behind a BMW at the service center lane.

    It is all about the luxury brand. So you sell a BMW 7 series as a Suzuki 7 series and folks would buy it and consider it a luxury car. Ya right! :shades:
    Some would think maybe but you know the truth.

    Luxury cars are about opulence and status and less about affordability. My rationale is - if you cant get your serviced at the dealership then you should not be buying that brand - this is for new cars and cars for maybe 3 yrs old or less. Ya right - a BMW /Lexus would like to get his car serviced at a Ford dealership !! :P
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Again ,each dealership is privately owned. The ratings dont matter as they are not dealership specific. that is a cumulative nation wide score. For you it may be bad. But for me -- the local Toyota dealer is superb- awesome ,polite ,courteous service, free drop offs and pick ups ,very honest and reliable, free Wifi and coffee, huge LCD screens all over-- so apples to Oranges I feel. SOme other Toyota dealer may not be as good.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    edited February 2011
    The Grandeur is light years from grandness. A complete failure there. Overpriced, under equipped for the money. I mean seriously, 40K Euro...what were they thinking?

    Let's also remember that you can also get smaller engined Lexus there than here, along with models from just about any make. What does the smaller engine have to do with anything? They aren't cheaper than the competition, or what get here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    Oh, there's little douchier than a trust fund kid in an M3, a social climber in a leased C/3/A4, or an overpaid corporate suck in a new CLS/X6 etc. That's never been debated. And Audi is attracting it arguably at a greater rate than any...think of TGUK with a rooster wearing a pendant with 4 interlaced rings :shades:

    I'll bet RX owners are RX owners because it's the preferred Stepford Wife chariot. I wouldn't doubt many of them have no idea it is a Toyota company. I'd even put money on it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    The Rover is a class above for the same consumer, indeed. Lexus can't play there with any of its SUV offerings. Completely different world maybe touched only by Cayenne and G-Wagen.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The RX I believe is more popular in the lower class subdivisions

    Relatively speaking...

    They ain't cheap. Most are well in to the 40s nowadays.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I found a group shot of your local RX Owners Club:

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Grandeur = Azera, right?

    The last generation seemed like an Avalon competitor. They did have nice interiors, so they started to show signs of grandeur...

    The new one will be legitimate. Each new Hyundai model is light years ahead of the car is replaces.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Makes me want to buy one and go to all the Owner's Club meetings. They're all cute. LOL
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The RX owner I know collects Corvairs, explain that.

    He has a trophy wife he bought it for? :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's his.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,714
    edited February 2011
    >Owner's Club meetings. They're all cute.

    They all look dated--clothing, car... etc.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They ain't cheap. Most are well in to the 40s nowadays.

    My Sequoia had an MSRP of $51K+, and it is just a lowly Toyota. New Sequoia comparable to mine lists for $61K. Making the RX a cheapo wannabe SUV for the Stepford wives. :blush:

    I would keep my 2007 Sequoia over anything new ToyLex has to offer, thank you. I don't buy into the paying more for less they are pushing on the masses in NA.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My tax man traded his wife's ES300 & his PT Cruiser on an RX. For one purpose. So their dog would have a nice place for their trip moving to Florida. He moved into The Villages back there. Told me he rarely takes the RX out of the garage, as he uses his golf cart for almost all his running around. He has under 20k on it. It has to be at least 6 years old.

    They still look like an egg decorated for Easter.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Who knows when that photo was taken?

    Actually it looks like a staged photo for the movie Stepford Wives.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2011
    Absolutely, a luxury brand has to be a standalone dealership that cannot sell mainstream brands.

    It may sound absurd , but thats the truth. Thats why the [non-permissible content removed] 3 created luxury brands. And its not the criteria I use - it's the industry wise criteria.

    Care to post any supporting documentation for that comment?

    As you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion... Just not their own facts...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,597
    edited February 2011
    There's what I call an "aesthetic maintenance clinic" near where I live that specializes in trendy "wellness therapy" and other mumbo jumbo...the stuff I see coming and going out of the parking lot is hilarious, hits a home run with every stereotype. The parking lot breakdown seems to be 50% Lexus, equal parts Rover/BMW/MB, 5 Escalade, 5 Audi.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sequoias are huge. It's no wonder they're not cheap. Pricier than Suburbans or Expeditions last time I looked.

    RX seems to have a lot of detractors, but consumers love them to death. It's still creaming the competition despite only minor changes from the original formula.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Over here that niche is filled by the "Lifetime Fitness" places.

    They invited us to an open house - mostly women who work out with lots of makeup and designer fitness wear.

    No particular make stood out in the parking lot, though.

    A friend of ours is a member and it's funny - the instructors actually ask her if she can wear nicer outfits and makeup. Funny stuff.
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