I agree & also wonder if the time has come to shut down this thread
When I post links, noone seems to read them and respond. Denial? Often people cite outdated sources that directly contradict recent news, such as Biller's crushing loss.
NHTSA is biased. Consumer Reports is biased. JD Power is biased. TrueDelta is biased. Strategic Vision is biased. All the car mags and press are biased. How convenient!
Orangutan-armed Sikes and the 3-armed grandma? Reliable, unbiased sources.
They just search across the globe for other bad news, in an endless cycle.
The global economy is recovering slowly, yet an 8% global increase in sales is seen as bad news here. And gas was cheap last year, slowing hybrid sales, but oil is way up. And they have buckets of cash.
The funny thing is some people here seem to think they can bring Toyota down. Good luck with that.
But I think the worst part is when other automakers are compared, the true colors come out, and you'll see who is loyal to which brands, because all that criticism is conveniently ignored.
Ghosn is an engineer, Nissan's steering shafts are snapping. So is he a murderer? They recalled about 3 times the number of vehicles they produced in 2010. Death traps? No, perfectly safe, because a double standard is applied.
When I post links, noone seems to read them and respond. Denial?
I read them, and respond if appropriate.
And gas was cheap last year, slowing hybrid sales, but oil is way up. And they have buckets of cash.
I would not call $2.79 cheap. That was the lowest price I paid in 2010. Early 2009 the price was $1.77. Those prices are for the cheapest Costco gas. I don't see any excuse for Toyota hybrids not selling well during 2009-10. If not for the surge in December for the Prius it would have lost ground in 2010 like the entire Toyota/Scion line of cars. The Avalon being the only exception.
Who are these people with buckets of cash. I am assuming it is the Chinese.
Honestly, I doubt we will ever see such a low price again. That was rock bottom in the global recession. Get used to a $3 in front of the price, maybe even a $4.
We should also remember that hybrid sales were artificially boosted during cash-for-clunkers, and we are comparing 2010 to those C4C 2009s.
The outlook is good, IMHO, for hybrids in 2011. Electrics' range is so limited they cannot really do the sort of volume hybrids can. You're skeptical of electrics so I don't have to convince you...
"One year after Toyota's highly publicized recalls, some car buyers are still avoiding the brand, according to shopping metrics provided by Edmunds.com.
"In the end, new products and new designs attract car buyers," said Caldwell. "Incentives work too, but new products are a far better investment for car companies long term."
>I'm only pointing out the obvious: this thread has devolved into a boring personality clash.
If that's the rubric, I can show you several GM-oriented discussions where they have been that for a long time. Actually just opinion, rather than personality, but if this should be closed, then some GM topics need to be closed, renamed, or refreshed in some way.
I have learned from the links posted in most cases. But toyota's handling of problems and coverups in the past are not characteristics of a good company that earns trust. Covering up reports of unintended acceleration from 2002 doesn't do it for me. If a car has a flaw, I expect it to be publicized and the people owning them notified.
Thanks to Edmunds for the T-shirt which I was sent.
I think a little research will show that Toyota's debt exceeds their reserves by a quite a large amount.
Moody's Investors Service on April 22 lowered its main debt rating for Toyota Motor Corp., saying the carmaker's well-publicized quality problems could hurt profits over the long term. The rating agency cut its senior unsecured rating on Toyota from Aa1 to Aa2, with a negative outlook. The cuts also apply to a number of its subsidiaries.
Moody's said in a statement that the ratings cut reflected Toyota's low level of profitability, which it expected to continue until at least 2012.
"Its product quality and recall challenges -- largely centered in the U.S. -- have created significant uncertainty over whether it can maintain the pricing power it has historically achieved over its rivals," Moody's Senior Analyst Tadashi Usui said.
In another blow, Toyota's position in the Forbes ranking of the world's leading companies released on April 21 nosedived to 360th from third last year.
I could not let poster's think that the figures of cash reserves was the whole story. I think Ford had about the same amount of cash reserves last year as Toyota. Equity, debt & NET Profit are the important financial figures to look at. Forbes rating drop is a big item also.
Actually just opinion, rather than personality, but if this should be closed, then some GM topics need to be closed, renamed, or refreshed in some way.
I'll have to take your word for this, since I have no intention of visiting those GM topics. They sound boring, & I'm not here to be bored.
But toyota's handling of problems and coverups in the past are not characteristics of a good company that earns trust.
As I've said more than once, I'm not at all interested in defending a company that makes boring cars. (I'm a German car guy. Remember?) I'm just pointing out the glaringly obvious: that this thread has turned into a shouting match with no educational or entertainment value.
The difference is Ford rating is coming up as Toyota goes down. That does not bode well for mending. And the additional Toyota recalls that are spreading all over the Globe could hurt their gains in the Non USA market.
And GM doesn't count when they include the sales volume of all 9 joint ventures, sorry.
So let me turn this around on you - please list GM's growth excluding new Joint Ventures. I doubt it's 12%, in fact I doubt it's even double digits.
You were the one who said that GM counted the volume from 9 joint ventures. So please list who those 9 joint ventures are. I don't even know them.
As a matter of fact, all foreign automakers in China operate as joint ventures and only holds 50% of the JV under Chinese law. That's how China arm twists the foreign automakers to share their technologies with China. China is just considering now to change this law for the electric cars to ease foreign automakers fear for losing the cutting edge technology China automaker law
So there's nothing wrong for GM to count the joint venture volume because that is the only form of operation in China for every foreign automaker. But I don't know that GM has 9 JVs.
I agree & also wonder if the time has come to shut down this thread. It's been months since I've seen anything new or interesting here.
I have absolutely no interest in defending Toyota, which doesn't make anything that I particularly want to own. I'm only pointing out the obvious: this thread has devolved into a boring personality clash.
The difference is Ford rating is coming up as Toyota goes down. That does not bode well for mending.
Reality dictates that some manufacturer will always be on top, and that the position will change between manufacturers.
For that reason, at least to me, it seems a bit foolish and futile to make simple comparasons between major players' current "position" in any industry.
Its the nature of competition. Don't like it now? Wait a couple of years....it'll change.
Of course, there will always be those whose main interest is in participating in a "measuring" contest....
Considering Toyota seems to report new problems on a regular basis, that doesn't seem like it would help the 'mend'. I don't post positive stuff, I leave that to others. Pretty much, what I have posted has turned out to be fact. I don't hate Toyota, I just don't think they deserved their exalted status. Nobody can deny they have been forced to change their philosophy regarding reporting and fixing vehicle deficiencies. Is it over? My opinion, No. How will it work out? TBD, so a good reason to continue this thread.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Here's the thing, manufacturers are all outsourcing more and more parts including design, so that loss of direct oversight and control probably will result in more and more recalls from everyone. Heck, it looks like even the previously pristine Ford Fusion is facing a big recall on bad wheel studs which can put a driver in a real world of hurt. Also, I don't think any of these car companies are all that upfront with their issues. Since I just mentioned Ford, how about cruise controls burning up vehicles and sometimes taking houses with them, or the recent apparent cover up of Windstar rusting axles - none of those issues seemed to be promptly dealt with? Cetainly Ford isn't alone in protracted rersolution of vehicle defects either.
Typical casual basher post. I have never denied Ford has their issues with recalls or other problems. Lumping all outsourced parts into a category inferior to oem, is just being ignorant.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Wow - you sure seem like a defensive, angry and aggressive person!
Typical casual basher post
How is this any different from you jumping on Toyota?
Lumping all outsourced parts into a category inferior to oem, is just being ignorant.
Not really. Problems from outsourcing aren't always the result of inferior quality. It can also result from system integration issues. In fact, the latter is probably the more common issue.
What is the topic here? Toyota, not Ford. I did write that I admit Fords have issues, too. Have something you want to post about a brand other than Toyota? There are plenty of active discussions for those other brands. I was pointing out that non oem parts are not necessarily inferior to oem. Maybe you should have made your reply to the OP. They could benefit from your reply to my post. You hurt my feelings. Yellow makes me sad. :P
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I've been called worse. So Fez, how are you doing? I am trying to figure out if we are really going to get another 10 inches of snow tonight. Maybe that's why some think I am a bit crabby.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Speaking with Fortune by telephone, ________ insisted that what the company needed was not a change in organization but a return to fundamentals. "We maybe slacked in some of our core principles [like] attention to the basics of manufacturing," he said. "It was as if we were engaged in car manufacturing in a virtual world and became insensitive to vehicle failings and defects in the market. Now we understand the gap between virtual world and real world, and we're working hard to fill those gaps. We want to pursue the basic performances in our cars -- run, turn, stop -- and secure the confidence of our customers."
Fill in the blank with Toyota, GM, Chrysler... and to a lesser extent, Ford.
We got about 4 or 5 inches of snow last night. Inland they got loads more - up to 20". Sometimes living this close to the coast pays off. Had thunder and sleet going at the same time.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Fill in the blank with Toyota, GM, Chrysler... and to a lesser extent, Ford.
While that's true we are discussing Toyota here. Are they on the mend? Not until they recognize what Watanabe did changed everything for the worse making them no better than GM.
While that's true we are discussing Toyota here. Are they on the mend? Not until they recognize what Watanabe did changed everything for the worse making them no better than GM.
Yes, you are correct.... to a degree.
I'm no Toyota "fan-boy", and the company most assuredly has its faults.
However, to single out a particular auto manufacturer for fault, when clearly most (if not all) of its major competition is just as guilty of the same exact behavior strikes me as being one-sided and biased.
Now, if one wants to make a case that this isn't true, then please...be my guest. When Toyota becomes the ONLY major automaker to be displaying this sort of behavior, then, to me, your point becomes relevant.
I did see a Camry in the parking lot at work today.
Maybe still there from the last storm.
I did see a brand new Camry with dealer plates testing its crumple zone on a power pole yesterday. It was clear no rain or slick streets. About 3 blocks from the Toyota dealership. Which is across the street from Bob Baker's Lexus dealership. I wanted to stop and ask if it was SUA. There was an ambulance so assuming someone got hurt. It is a side street with little traffic. Had to be a salesman along as they do not let you take cars on your own around here. I am sure it was a total loss.
I posted this over in the car commercials thread. It's a link to a TopGear USA episode done in Alaska. Pretty overwhelming geography There is a Toyota connection.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
When Toyota becomes the ONLY major automaker to be displaying this sort of behavior, then, to me, your point becomes relevant.
Back in the 50s and 60s Toyota quality sucked. The success of Toyota was Deming based with quality control. That is how they beat the Big 3. Watanabe dumped Deming. So now Toyota quality sucks but not as bad as in the 50s. Deming also favored long term relationships with employees. That's another thing Toyota has changed. Do you see a pattern here?
So my point is that they are the only Deming based auto manufacturer who after reaching success dumps what made them successful.
Ford Fusion is facing a big recall on bad wheel studs which can put a driver in a real world of hurt.
Ford also just recalled half a million Windstars for a 2nd time for the rusty frames. This goes as far back as model year 1999.
So, as is obvious, it can take time (12+ years in this case).
The irony is that with Toyota under the microscope, the HPFP on Lexus models are being replaced. BMW didn't do that. Better for the Lexus owner. I would pick a BMW 325i over a 330i for the HPFP issue alone.
Comments
When I post links, noone seems to read them and respond. Denial? Often people cite outdated sources that directly contradict recent news, such as Biller's crushing loss.
NHTSA is biased. Consumer Reports is biased. JD Power is biased. TrueDelta is biased. Strategic Vision is biased. All the car mags and press are biased. How convenient!
Orangutan-armed Sikes and the 3-armed grandma? Reliable, unbiased sources.
They just search across the globe for other bad news, in an endless cycle.
The global economy is recovering slowly, yet an 8% global increase in sales is seen as bad news here. And gas was cheap last year, slowing hybrid sales, but oil is way up. And they have buckets of cash.
The funny thing is some people here seem to think they can bring Toyota down. Good luck with that.
But I think the worst part is when other automakers are compared, the true colors come out, and you'll see who is loyal to which brands, because all that criticism is conveniently ignored.
Ghosn is an engineer, Nissan's steering shafts are snapping. So is he a murderer? They recalled about 3 times the number of vehicles they produced in 2010. Death traps? No, perfectly safe, because a double standard is applied.
I read them, and respond if appropriate.
And gas was cheap last year, slowing hybrid sales, but oil is way up. And they have buckets of cash.
I would not call $2.79 cheap. That was the lowest price I paid in 2010. Early 2009 the price was $1.77. Those prices are for the cheapest Costco gas. I don't see any excuse for Toyota hybrids not selling well during 2009-10. If not for the surge in December for the Prius it would have lost ground in 2010 like the entire Toyota/Scion line of cars. The Avalon being the only exception.
Who are these people with buckets of cash. I am assuming it is the Chinese.
Fair enough, you're one of the few that do.
Early 2009 the price was $1.77.
Honestly, I doubt we will ever see such a low price again. That was rock bottom in the global recession. Get used to a $3 in front of the price, maybe even a $4.
We should also remember that hybrid sales were artificially boosted during cash-for-clunkers, and we are comparing 2010 to those C4C 2009s.
The outlook is good, IMHO, for hybrids in 2011. Electrics' range is so limited they cannot really do the sort of volume hybrids can. You're skeptical of electrics so I don't have to convince you...
Who are these people with buckets of cash
I meant Toyota's cash reserves.
"In the end, new products and new designs attract car buyers," said Caldwell. "Incentives work too, but new products are a far better investment for car companies long term."
One Year Later, Lingering Safety Concerns Not All that Ails Toyota
(AutoObserver)
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/26/toyota-recalls-245-000-lexus-sedans-in-u-s-1-- - 7-million-cars-gl/
How many recalls did they have during last year?
If that's the rubric, I can show you several GM-oriented discussions where they have been that for a long time. Actually just opinion, rather than personality, but if this should be closed, then some GM topics need to be closed, renamed, or refreshed in some way.
I have learned from the links posted in most cases. But toyota's handling of problems and coverups in the past are not characteristics of a good company that earns trust. Covering up reports of unintended acceleration from 2002 doesn't do it for me. If a car has a flaw, I expect it to be publicized and the people owning them notified.
Thanks to Edmunds for the T-shirt which I was sent.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm with you on that. It's just spinning in circles now - the thread not the Toyota....
(Imidazol97, are you sure that was a T-Shirt and not a crying towel? We may have to start sending those out instead.
I think a little research will show that Toyota's debt exceeds their reserves by a quite a large amount.
Moody's Investors Service on April 22 lowered its main debt rating for Toyota Motor Corp., saying the carmaker's well-publicized quality problems could hurt profits over the long term. The rating agency cut its senior unsecured rating on Toyota from Aa1 to Aa2, with a negative outlook. The cuts also apply to a number of its subsidiaries.
Moody's said in a statement that the ratings cut reflected Toyota's low level of profitability, which it expected to continue until at least 2012.
"Its product quality and recall challenges -- largely centered in the U.S. -- have created significant uncertainty over whether it can maintain the pricing power it has historically achieved over its rivals," Moody's Senior Analyst Tadashi Usui said.
In another blow, Toyota's position in the Forbes ranking of the world's leading companies released on April 21 nosedived to 360th from third last year.
http://www.industryweek.com/articles/toyotas_debt_rating_lowered_21648.aspx
I could not let poster's think that the figures of cash reserves was the whole story. I think Ford had about the same amount of cash reserves last year as Toyota. Equity, debt & NET Profit are the important financial figures to look at. Forbes rating drop is a big item also.
Should we compare to Ford? GM? Chrysler?
I'll have to take your word for this, since I have no intention of visiting those GM topics. They sound boring, & I'm not here to be bored.
But toyota's handling of problems and coverups in the past are not characteristics of a good company that earns trust.
As I've said more than once, I'm not at all interested in defending a company that makes boring cars. (I'm a German car guy. Remember?) I'm just pointing out the glaringly obvious: that this thread has turned into a shouting match with no educational or entertainment value.
Guess who popped in to the Sienna threads, though?
Wonder if he bought a Sienna, LOL.
The difference is Ford rating is coming up as Toyota goes down. That does not bode well for mending. And the additional Toyota recalls that are spreading all over the Globe could hurt their gains in the Non USA market.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So let me turn this around on you - please list GM's growth excluding new Joint Ventures. I doubt it's 12%, in fact I doubt it's even double digits.
You were the one who said that GM counted the volume from 9 joint ventures. So please list who those 9 joint ventures are. I don't even know them.
As a matter of fact, all foreign automakers in China operate as joint ventures and only holds 50% of the JV under Chinese law. That's how China arm twists the foreign automakers to share their technologies with China. China is just considering now to change this law for the electric cars to ease foreign automakers fear for losing the cutting edge technology China automaker law
So there's nothing wrong for GM to count the joint venture volume because that is the only form of operation in China for every foreign automaker. But I don't know that GM has 9 JVs.
Ok, but I got dibs on the first ones.
That's how China arm twists the foreign automakers to share their technologies with China
Sounds like GM is selling their soul to the devil if you ask me. Big risk.
Of course in the past the Chinese have simply copied existing models anyway, may as well make a deal and make it official.
I have absolutely no interest in defending Toyota, which doesn't make anything that I particularly want to own. I'm only pointing out the obvious: this thread has devolved into a boring personality clash.
Ditto for me.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/26/toyota-teases-ft-86-ii-concept-for-geneva/
I don't think this car will do too much volume, but it'll serve as a good halo car and bring in young buyers.
Reality dictates that some manufacturer will always be on top, and that the position will change between manufacturers.
For that reason, at least to me, it seems a bit foolish and futile to make simple comparasons between major players' current "position" in any industry.
Its the nature of competition. Don't like it now? Wait a couple of years....it'll change.
Of course, there will always be those whose main interest is in participating in a "measuring" contest....
They COULD have gone into BK, like GM. :shades:
I don't post positive stuff, I leave that to others.
Pretty much, what I have posted has turned out to be fact.
I don't hate Toyota, I just don't think they deserved their exalted status.
Nobody can deny they have been forced to change their philosophy regarding reporting and fixing vehicle deficiencies.
Is it over? My opinion, No.
How will it work out? TBD, so a good reason to continue this thread.
I have never denied Ford has their issues with recalls or other problems.
Lumping all outsourced parts into a category inferior to oem, is just being ignorant.
Typical casual basher post
How is this any different from you jumping on Toyota?
Lumping all outsourced parts into a category inferior to oem, is just being ignorant.
Not really. Problems from outsourcing aren't always the result of inferior quality. It can also result from system integration issues. In fact, the latter is probably the more common issue.
Chill buddy, you'll live longer.
I did write that I admit Fords have issues, too.
Have something you want to post about a brand other than Toyota?
There are plenty of active discussions for those other brands.
I was pointing out that non oem parts are not necessarily inferior to oem.
Maybe you should have made your reply to the OP.
They could benefit from your reply to my post.
You hurt my feelings. Yellow makes me sad. :P
Ya jackwagon!
So Fez, how are you doing?
I am trying to figure out if we are really going to get another 10 inches of snow tonight.
Maybe that's why some think I am a bit crabby.
Maybe that's why some think I am a bit crabby
I grew up in the Midwest. Trust me - Brandy and a good cigar! You can't control it, so make the best of the situation and these will warm you up.
Maybe that's why some think I am a bit crabby.
Do you live in one of those places where they have outlawed sledding? The only thing fun a family can do in snow.
Hyundai just reported a full year 2010 worldwide sales increase by 16.3%. One of the several double digits increase I was waiting for.
More double digit "spin" to come... anything but Toyota
Hyundai
Read this:
TOKYO – Toyota Motor Corp., the world's No. 1 automaker, says its worldwide production of cars fell for the fourth straight month in December.
That's slow down in anyone's definition.
Toyota slows down
How Toyota Lost Its Way
Seems Akio may not be any better than Katsuaki.....
Speaking with Fortune by telephone, ________ insisted that what the company needed was not a change in organization but a return to fundamentals. "We maybe slacked in some of our core principles [like] attention to the basics of manufacturing," he said. "It was as if we were engaged in car manufacturing in a virtual world and became insensitive to vehicle failings and defects in the market. Now we understand the gap between virtual world and real world, and we're working hard to fill those gaps. We want to pursue the basic performances in our cars -- run, turn, stop -- and secure the confidence of our customers."
Fill in the blank with Toyota, GM, Chrysler... and to a lesser extent, Ford.
They all fit nicely into the quote.
We got about 4 or 5 inches of snow last night. Inland they got loads more - up to 20". Sometimes living this close to the coast pays off. Had thunder and sleet going at the same time.
While that's true we are discussing Toyota here. Are they on the mend? Not until they recognize what Watanabe did changed everything for the worse making them no better than GM.
Yes, you are correct.... to a degree.
I'm no Toyota "fan-boy", and the company most assuredly has its faults.
However, to single out a particular auto manufacturer for fault, when clearly most (if not all) of its major competition is just as guilty of the same exact behavior strikes me as being one-sided and biased.
Now, if one wants to make a case that this isn't true, then please...be my guest. When Toyota becomes the ONLY major automaker to be displaying this sort of behavior, then, to me, your point becomes relevant.
We got about a foot of snow last night.
I did see a Camry in the parking lot at work today.
Maybe still there from the last storm.
I did see a brand new Camry with dealer plates testing its crumple zone on a power pole yesterday. It was clear no rain or slick streets. About 3 blocks from the Toyota dealership. Which is across the street from Bob Baker's Lexus dealership. I wanted to stop and ask if it was SUA. There was an ambulance so assuming someone got hurt. It is a side street with little traffic. Had to be a salesman along as they do not let you take cars on your own around here. I am sure it was a total loss.
It's a link to a TopGear USA episode done in Alaska.
Pretty overwhelming geography
There is a Toyota connection.
Looks like another sale was made!
Back in the 50s and 60s Toyota quality sucked. The success of Toyota was Deming based with quality control. That is how they beat the Big 3. Watanabe dumped Deming. So now Toyota quality sucks but not as bad as in the 50s. Deming also favored long term relationships with employees. That's another thing Toyota has changed. Do you see a pattern here?
So my point is that they are the only Deming based auto manufacturer who after reaching success dumps what made them successful.
Deming Management
Toyota quality mess
Ford also just recalled half a million Windstars for a 2nd time for the rusty frames. This goes as far back as model year 1999.
So, as is obvious, it can take time (12+ years in this case).
The irony is that with Toyota under the microscope, the HPFP on Lexus models are being replaced. BMW didn't do that. Better for the Lexus owner. I would pick a BMW 325i over a 330i for the HPFP issue alone.
Plus, what matters is how many cars sold, earning revenues. Production costs money, sales earn money.
It's all about the Benjamins. $$$
Well said.
Toyota being about the same size as Ford in the US, too, so comparisons are entirely relevant.
When Toyota becomes the ONLY major automaker to be displaying this sort of behavior
Pretty much nails it on the head.