Toyota on the mend?

nippononly

All of the luxury carmakers (near-lux too) are suffering from the gas prices, because their volume is in their lowest end models, and the folks "buying" those are most often leasing the maximum car they can afford. With the gas prices doubling, they can no longer afford those payments and the gas to run their cars.

As for styling, it will of course be heavily subject to individual tastes, but I kinda like the new IS. I do think all the cars look too similar now - there should be much more distinction between the IS and GS for instance.

As for truck sales, don't forget that with the LX and Land Cruiser, 50% or 100% gains in sales, which sounds spectacular, usually translates to an extra 1000 sales a year or whatever - not that big a deal. The LX and LC were way overdue for their updates, so it was no wonder that they have bumped up in sales. Plus, as you say, I think in LX price territory, you genuinely have buyers who are unconcerned about the price of gas.

gagrice

Again, that's strictly your opinion.

You are right. It is OUR opinion. And we are not part of that group that leases. We buy cash for the long haul. Unfortunately we have not found any recent vehicle we wanted for the long haul. The LS460 is a big improvement over the LS430, so there we agree. I did not look at or consider the IS or GS as luxury cars. We did look at the LX470 when we were looking for a good buy on an SUV. They had a pearl white one that we could have gotten a great deal on. However it had a flaw in the paint on the hood. I told the salesman. His comment, we can fix that. He obviously knew little about pearlescent paint. For me that would have been an additional $10k off the invoice price. Also that dealer is very low on my list of car dealers. It will be interesting to see how many LS430s and LS460s hold their own after 19 years as our LS400 has. I sometimes wish the LS400 would break so I have an excuse to buy a new car. I will probably sell the Sequoia before too long. With several diesel SUVs on my radar, the Sequoia will just be taking up space in the garage.

mcdawgg

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/Themostdependablec- ar.aspx

Looks like Toyota is doing very well - better than last year. Toyota's Lexus is #1, while Toyota brand is #4. Acura is #5 and Honda is #9.

nippononly

was also the leader in four car classes, and tied Honda for a fifth.

The funny thing is that by contrast GM had only two class leaders and both of them are discontinued models: the Monte Carlo and the Century. :-P

Ford had 3 class leaders, two models that are older than dirt, and one discontinued: the Crown Vic, the Ranger, and the Monterey minivan.

Prius led its class (compact cars) in reliability.

kdhspyder

True this.

Also another factor in the apparent 'good' result in the Sequoia is that this is a year-over-year comparison which certainly is valid but last year was the 'wind-down' year with sales at their low point. Even moderately better sales for the new model seems like an improvement. I'd rather compare them to a graph of sales since the first Sequoia arrived. These last two years might be the two worst years. Fuel prices.

That being said I love the look and capability of this new model. It's just too bad about the timing. I think that they'll keep it just in very small numbers.

kdhspyder

The R-family of engines is finally going to replace fully the 90's technology still riding under Toyota hoods.
Just in N America...
1GR .. 4R, Taco, FJ, Tundra
2GR .. V6 Camry, Avy, Sienna, Highlander, RAV, Venza, ES, RX, GS, IS
3GR .. IS 300, GS 300
4GR .. IS 250
1UR .. LS 460. GS 460
2UR .. IS-F, LS 600h

.....................New for 2007
3UR .. Tundra, Sequoia, LC, LX570

.....................New for 2008/2009
1ZR .. Gen3 Prius ( new in 2009 )
2ZR .. Gen10 Corolla
1AR .. 2.7L Highlander, Venza ( new in 2009 ) link
.............Toyota Highlander To Feature All-New Four-Cylinder Engine
Capable Performance Plus Outstanding Fuel Efficiency Equals Excellent Value

2AR .. 2.5L RAV, ( Camry, Corolla/Matrix, xB new in 2009/10 )

The new 2.5L 2AR will debut in the RAV next month. This will be the workhorse I4 for the midsizers. The announcement rated it at 179 hp ( vs 166 ) and better FE than the outgoing 2.4L 2AZ engine. link

nwng

Meaning the price of gas means little to those of US who want a large SUV.

that is the same reason suv and pu will be back into their preboom sales numbers. Too many people "want" a large suv but does not "need" one.

mackabee

Bob, you got too much time on your hands. I could not in my last 10+ years tell you the designation of the engines nor would I want to. The only one I can remember is the legendary 22R.

louiswei

The 2GR is an amazing engine. Since its debut it has gotten unanimous praise from the automobile community. I truly hope that the new 2.5L 2AR will be able to repeat the same success for Toyota after its debut.

nippononly

I believe most of those engines are direct injected under the hoods of the Lexus models, but NOT under the hoods of the Toyotas. When are the Toyotas going to get the fuel economy and emissions benefits of DI like their Lexus cousins?

And will the RAV4 4-cylinder and Matrix/Corolla 1.8 ever be getting a 5-speed auto? To say nothing of the Yaris?

All of these things would go a fair way toward increasing fuel economy....

gagrice

The Lexus and Toyota 3.5 l V6 all have the same emissions rating and same mileage rating. Not very high at that. So what would that gain the Toyota besides faster 0-60?

kdhspyder

In it's ever so pokey way Toyota slides innovations into the vehicles at it's own damn pace.
The 2009 RAV gets the 2AR 2.5L but stays with the 4 AT. The 2GR V6 remains linked to the 5 AT.

But there's hope... announced today. link

August 14, 2008 - Torrance, CA - Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., announced today that the 2009 Highlander mid-size sport utility vehicle (SUV) will offer an all-new, powerful yet fuel-efficient 2.7-liter four-cylinder engine. When it arrives at dealerships in mid-to-late January, the new Highlander powerplant will be among the best mid-size SUVs in the areas of performance, fuel economy and value.

The new 2.7-liter four-cylinder engine will generate an impressive 187 horsepower at 5,800 RPM and 186 lb.-ft. of torque at 4,100 RPM on regular 87 octane fuel. A dual exhaust manifold will help achieve exceptional low-end torque and maximize its power output. In addition to its performance output, the Highlander equipped with the new four-cylinder will be EPA-rated as an Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (ULEVII) and is expected to be among the leaders in fuel efficiency in the gas mid-size SUV segment. Official EPA fuel efficiency ratings will be announced closer to launch.

The new four-cylinder engine will be mated to an all-new six-speed electronically-controlled automatic overdrive transmission with intelligence (ECT-i). The new transmission will help deliver quiet and smooth performance on par with a V6 and acceleration that is surprisingly quick for a four-cylinder. When equipped with a tow package, the new powerplant will achieve a maximum towing capacity of 3,500 pounds

This is the new 1AR 2.7L which was first announced for the Venza. Now both vehicles will have it.

kdhspyder

Puleeze."..not very high at that"?

The 2GR is considered the best in class across the board ever since it arrived in the Avalon in 2005. The rest of the industry has been playing catchup since then. The Camry and the Accord are the two leaders in V6 engines with more power and better fuel economy than the entire rest of the industry.

The negativism in every post is getting heavy. Especially when it's unfounded. Your statements are beginning to border on the comical. Or you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

nippononly

the gains from DI come more in fuel economy and lower-end torque than they do in emissions. Emissions has to do with lots of things. Direct injection would be one more weapon in Toyota's arsenal.

Do the Lexi and the Toyota 3.5s make the same power at the same FE rating? Just going by memory, I think the Lexi make the same FE with MORE power, partly as a result of the DI.

kdh: that's really cool about the new 2.7L being mated to a 6-speed auto. I wonder if the supposedly "sportier" Venza will also have paddle-shifting...
I must confess I have trouble discerning where the distinction will be between Venza buyers and Highlander 2.7 buyers. Almost the identical car, no? Except for those enormous Venza rims. ;-)

My fear is that with the new 2.7 being glued to the new automatic, any model with the "old" 4-cylinder (1.8, maybe 2.5 as well?, certainly the 2.4 while it is still being used in the Corolla/Matrix) will be stuck with a 4-speed auto until such time as those models' engines are replaced with the 2.7.

And I will be waiting with baited breath to see what the FE ratings are for HLs and Venzas with the 2.7/6-speed. They will need to be at least mid-20s combined to be a competitive advantage.

kdhspyder

Using the current 2.4L Camry with 90s technology as the benchmark at 21 C / 31 H then I'd expect the Venza 2.7L to fall in the same range @ +/- 1 mpg or so.

The Highlander in getting the new engine and the new tranny but being squarer and heavier I'd expect it to fall in the 20 C / 26 H range This would put it just lower than the smaller RAV.

gagrice

Touched a nerve on your dirty Toyota's eh? All I hear is how Green Toyota is and most of their cars are not even ULEV II, let alone, SULEV II or PZEV. The Camry is the same emissions as 5 years ago.

nippononly

The 4-cylinder Camry has a PZEV rating though, which is usually 75-80% of all Camrys sold.

While other carmakers have expanded their PZEV offerings, Toyota sells so many Camrys it doesn't need to sell other PZEV models. But it sure would be nice for its green credentials if it made the Corolla PZEV as well. And then worked on getting the other models in as well.

I believe Honda does the same with the Accord and Civic: the Accord is PZEV, the Civic isn't.

gagrice

The PZEV Camry is only offered in the CARB states. That may be 1/3rd. I guess the rest of the country can just eat their stinky exhaust.

Of course you know this is just to jab at those that have picked on us diesel advocates the last 10 years on this site. You and I know that it is a matter of cost. To squeeze that last MINUTE bit of pollution can be several hundred dollars. CA being in the rabid clutches of whacked out environmentalists, would gladly give up other people's money for a negligible gain at the tail pipe. ULEV II or Bin 5 are very clean, and more than enough to keep our air clean.

larsb

Gary says, "The PZEV Camry is only offered in the CARB states"

All Camry Hybrids are AT-PZEV. All of them, regardless of where sold. The engines and exhaust systems are exactly the same.

The difference is that they burn SLIGHTLY cleaner when they are using gasoline which is formulated in the CARB states.

In other words, when I drive my TCH to California and fillup with Cali gas, my TCH is burning as clean as a TCH which was SOLD in California.

I was worried that I had not purchased the cleanest TCH when I found out that the air pollution scores were different for different models, so I confirmed this with Toyota corporate shortly after I bought my car, so I know it to be true.

nippononly

Just so you know, PZEV is a CARB-state-only designation. The official designation is AT-PZEV, and all it really means is SULEV emissions with a 150K-mile performance warranty on the emissions system.

Therefore, Camrys sold outside CARB-reg states cannot be PZEVs, as that designation does not exist in those places.

I fully support automakers making as many models SULEV or PZEV as possible, even if it does cost more.

larsb

Camry hybrids are indeed AT-PZEV in regard to their emission levels.

Maybe they are not designated as such in non-CARB states but the emission and exhaust hardware is identical, according to Toyota corporate.

gagrice

There is only one model Camry hybrid for all markets. There are two models of the 4 cylinder Camry one ULEV II and one is SULEV II for the CARB states. None of the Toyota 6 cylinders are SULEV II.

As you pointed out the gas makes the difference. The gas has always been the biggest part of the pollution equation, since they started using gas at the beginning of the 20th century. Removing the lead was what cleaned the air in CA. All the added components remove many of the pollutants still in gasoline.

I am surprised you had such good luck with our ethanol laced gas. What brand did you buy?

larsb

Gary says, "I am surprised you had such good luck with our ethanol laced gas. What brand did you buy? "

I bought gas at the Flying J in Blythe and at a 76 station in Beaumont. I'm still running that 76 gas and the tank average is at 35.1 MPG right now winding down to empty.

Apparently, it's very difficult and maybe overly expensive to make a 6-cylinder engine a PZEV.

Here's the complete list for 2008:

BMW 328i/xi
Buick LaCrosse 3.8
Buick Lucerne 3.8
Chevrolet Cobalt 2.2
Chevrolet Impala 3.5
Chrysler Sebring 2.4
Dodge Avenger 2.4
Ford Focus
Ford Fusion 2.3
Ford Taurus
Ford Taurus X
Honda Accord 2.4/3.5
Hyundai Elantra
Kia Spectra
Mazda 3 2.0/2.3
Mazda 6 2.3
Mercedes-Benz C350
Mercedes-Benz E350
Mercury Milan 2.3
Mercury Sable
Mitsubishi Galant 2.4
Mitsubishi Lancer
Mitsubishi Outlander 3.0
Nissan Altima 2.5
Pontiac G5 2.2
Pontiac Grand Prix 3.8
Subaru Forester 2.5
Subaru Legacy 2.5
Subaru Outback 2.5
Toyota Camry 2.4
Volkswagen Jetta
Volkswagen New Beetle
Volkswagen Rabbit
Volvo S40 2.4
Volvo V50 2.4

I don't know which of those are 6-cylinder engines.

nippononly

I don't know which of those are 6-cylinder engines.

Hmm, let's see: the GM 3.5 and 3.8, the BMW, the Mercedes 3.5, the Ford 3.5, the Honda 3.5 (and are you sure about that one?), and the Mitsu 3.0.

I don't know that it's harder to make a PZEV 6-cylinder, it is just that automakers usually pick 1 or 2 volume models to make PZEV and earn credit, and the Japanese do volume in 4-cylinders while the Europeans and pretty much the domestics too do volume in 6-cylinder models.

hypnosis44

"...and more than enough to keep our air clean."
==========================================================

Such a nice Big Brotherism PR statement. The air is not clean, it is dirty from polution. Cars do not make air clean, they add dirt to it. Drive 'em if you like, but be honest - they are poluters from manufacturing through scrapping. "Long Live Big Brother. War is peace, love is hate, driving a car cleans the air."

louiswei

See... Toyota also makes the big SUVs and pickup trucks like the domestics so their green status is a lie, BIG LIE!!

Oh wait, but nobody makes more hybrids than Toyota...

But you see, Toyota is not making enough hybrids, again they are just using the hybrids as the cover for their green status!!

Oh wait, Toyota is going to start building the Prius in America...

Ah ha, you see, Toyota is NOT GREEN because they don't make enough PZEV engines!!!

:sick: :sick: :sick:

nwng

you forgot about the part that the prius will be "assembling" in the US, which the suppliers are all owned by the yota family members

nippononly

has further reduced its sales forecast for next year, and put off its goal of selling 10 million annually worldwide:

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080828/ANA02/308289975/1078- -

President Katsuaki Watanabe slashed his ambitious 2009 forecast to 9.7 million vehicles from an earlier goal of 10.4 million. Stagnating U.S. sales were largely to blame.

The economic environment, crude oil prices as well as the material cost trend was not accurately forecasted by us, and we initially thought there would be a greater number of vehicles sold," Watanabe said here today while announcing the downward revision.

The more modest ambitions highlight how even the world's biggest and most profitable automaker has been stung by the U.S. meltdown. The automaker's strong operating profits in North America nearly vanished in the April-June quarter, plunging 98.9 percent.

They expect sales to be 130,000 lower than last year in the U.S. this year. They expect the market to continue stagnating through 2009.

Toyota might do well to divert production to models that are still selling so well they are in short supply, like Corolla. I know Honda is doing that to produce more Civics. Since 2006, Honda has been selling more of them than ever in its history, and for much of that time there has been a chronic Civic shortage.

kdhspyder

The US$ has stabilized somewhat but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't divert production to markets other than the US due to the relatively weak dollar. Why ship a Prius or 4Runner here when it could be shipped to SE Asia or China or Europe and not suffer a currency penalty.

I think that if the dollar was stronger that they would offer more incentives to keep up sales here. With the weak dollar there is no impetus to encourage sales....let them go the way of the market.

gagrice

Why ship a Prius or 4Runner here when it could be shipped to SE Asia or China or Europe and not suffer a currency penalty.

While I agree that is good business. Is it good PR? Will the potential 4Runner buyer go buy an Explorer instead and be lost as a customer? I think it is even more critical with the Prius as it is a loner. Will the Prius customer get disgusted with Toyota and be lost as a customer?

mackabee

So what's wrong with that? At least we know it will be very well built.
:shades:

mackabee

I don't think Toyota cares much about PR right now. Everyone wants their products. There is no shortage of Toyota customers anywhere. It's a great time to sell Toyota.

kdhspyder

In the case of the Prius shipments are at about the same level as last year - even though they could have been significantly higher - but by NOT shipping them to the US they have avoided the currency penalty or gained a currency benefit by shipping them to Europe.

In the case of the 4Runner it makes no sense to over-produce a BOF vehicle that the market doesn't want here. To then ship it to the US, pay a currency penalty and have to put additional incentives on it just to get it to move is against their entire sales philosphy.

It's a 'pull' system of production/inventory; i.e. build/ship only what can be sold. It the major difference between the detroiters and T/H.

nippononly

Well there's certainly a shortage of Sequoia and Tundra customers, right? Given that they are shutting down the line for three months?!

Toyota has been pushing its Labor Day sale so hard these last couple of weeks that you can't turn the TV on day or night without seeing the ads. Heck, just in the last five minutes I have seen four of them, including two in the SAME COMMERCIAL BREAK.

Someone is certainly worried about a shortage of Toyota customers....

nortsr1

I don't think it's a shortage of Toyota customers....it's the fact that people (customers) are NOT BUYING large heavy vehicles such as those. Sales, certainly, are down with ALL the manufacturers of the Trucks and SUV's.

nippononly

Yes I know. I was responding to the remark which seemed to indicate that Toyota is selling everything it wants to, when in fact sales are down 10% in recent months on the weakness of truck sales. Toyota, like every full-line manufacturer, is far from having "all the customers it wants" for its trucks...

nippononly

is planning to release a hybrid with compressed natural gas as the other power source besides electricity. They will do it next year, and the model it will appear in will be the Camry:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/cng-camry/

I find it intriguing that even though Camry hybrid sales haven't been as hot as Toyota hoped for, they are still plugging away at increasing alt-fuel powertrains for the Camry. And it is odd to pick CNG-electric hybrid as the next choice. I don't think Honda sells very many Civic GXs, which is the only other CNG-powered mainstream vehicle available today.

nippononly

As of 10-1-08, Toyota is the worst-performing of the Japanese Big 3 this year. It is down more than 10% YTD to Honda's 1%:

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081001/ANA02/810019964/1078- /emailblast02&refsect=emailblast02

Even among the minors, only Mitsubishi has done worse this year than Toyota, and Subaru is one of only two companies that is UP in sales (the other is Daimler, with the Mercedes, Maybach, and Smart brands).

Looking just at one month, September was the worst single-month decline for Toyota in 50 years, according to the article. Indeed, Toyota's single-month decline was DOUBLE that of GM, and on par with Chrysler's and Ford's.

It is tempting to say that trucks have dragged down Toyota more than the other Japanese but Nissan goes toe-to-toe with Toyota for truck offerings, and they are only down 3% for the year. Could Toyota's lack of inspiring product (and half-hearted updates to its two volume sellers, Camry and Corolla, at the last model change) finally be coming home to roost as buyers become more selective under tightening economic conditions?

larsb

This really is merely an indication of a car-buying slump in general, due to the economy, and has nothing to do specifically with anything 'Yota is doing wrong.

No one can get loans - so how are cars getting financed?

I don't really think this "signals" anything bad for Toyota per se. It just means people don't have enough "spare cash" around to go buy new cars.

Let me know the first month that everyone ELSE has banner months and 'Yota has a significant drop. THAT would indicate a problem with Toyota.

This news does not.

This story explains exactly what I just said in this post. It was a brutal month for automakers across the board.

andre1969

that in September '08 versus Sept '07, Toyota is actually down 35%! What's going on here? In contrast, I think Ford was down 32% and GM "only" 16%. Did Toyota finally flood the market with Camrys and Corollas, or something?

larsb

Read This and my previous post to understand.

It was nothing 'Yota did wrong. That's the market this month.

stever

Toyota sales gained 14% in Canada. Bloomberg.

Car sales in Japan have sunk to a 34-year low, including a 6% drop by Toyota.

Sales are strong in China but even there, Toyota has slowed production since they aren't going to meet sales projections.

It is curious that Toyota got hammered so much, compared to Honda.

larsb

Honda was down 24 percent and 'Yota was down 32 percent. Not a huge gap there.

stever

Hmm, could have sworn I read they were actually up.

Bad link, no cookie.

[ah, Honda was up in the Japanese domestic market - got my wires crossed]

gagrice

It looks to me like the only bright spots for Toyota is the biggest and the littlest. The Yaris and the Sequoia are way up in sales over last year. The Prius has tanked or are they still trying to find a company in China to build them cheaper? Your link requires registry. This has most of the figures. Honda is slightly ahead for the year. Acura & Lexus are way down. This may boost GM back into the lead World wide.

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382903

nippononly

But for the year, Toyota is down more than 10%, Honda is down 1%. The overall market is down 12%. So Toyota is slightly ahead of the curve, but not keeping up with its main Japanese rivals (Nissan down 3.4% for the year).

gagrice: people seem to really like the improvements Toyota made to that new Sequoia! Unfortunately, no amount of improvements are going to make up for the total crash and burn that the large SUV segment executed this year. SUV sales are down 57% at Ford this year. Yikes.

mcdawgg

You are comparing apples to oranges - Toyota is a full line manufacturer, MUCH larger than Honda, so the numbers can be misleading.

The Camry was way ahead of the Accord for Sept. and way ahead for the year. The Corolla was behind the civic by 261 units, and year to date by 6,030 units. Corolla has been behind the Civic this year (first time in a long time), but it is catching up. Remember, the 10th generation went on sale in Feb., and is still catching up.

You could say the same about the Accord (new this year) but it is WAY behind the Camry.

andre1969

Corolla has been behind the Civic this year (first time in a long time), but it is catching up. Remember, the 10th generation went on sale in Feb., and is still catching up.

Is the 2009 Corolla really "new" enough to warrant classification as a new generation? It just seems like a re-skin/facelift to me. But then it was the same with the 1993-97 and 1998-02 models...close enough together that I couldn't tell them apart at a quick glance.

You could say the same about the Accord (new this year) but it is WAY behind the Camry.

I wonder if the 2008 Accord just got too big for most of its target market. Now for someone like me, who was raised on the types of big cars they haven't made in eons now, it seems "just right", but maybe for most people it's just gotten too big. It looks larger enough than the Camry or Altima to be noticeable, so maybe because of that, people think it's going to guzzle? Perhaps the confused styling might put off some people, as well. Whereas the Camry and Altima, IMO at least, look like evolutions from the previous models, the Accord just went off in a whole different direction, and seems a blending of Altima, Saturn L-series, and BMW, and somehow losing its Honda identity along the way.

nippononly

You are comparing apples to oranges - Toyota is a full line manufacturer, MUCH larger than Honda, so the numbers can be misleading.

Call it misleading if you will, but Honda gained market share at Toyota's expense this year (and Hyundai/Kia's). That's significant. Before this year, they were both gaining market share only at the DOMESTICS' expense.

And then how do you explain away Nissan's performance? Nissan is very much the full-line manufacturer...

larsb

As I said yesterday - I don't think it has ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO with what any carmaker is doing "wrong" or what another one is doing "right."

The overall car market is DOWN across the board.

I don't think you can "read" anything into it that Toyota was down more than the other Japanese Big 3.

I was more than likely just a coincidence of buying patterns. Maybe Honda and Nissan advertised more. Maybe they had more specials. Maybe their sales departments were more desperate.

I don't think anyone has any justification or proof (other than an opinion like mine is) that would indicate that Toyota "did anything wrong" at all.