Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    I don't think anyone has any justification or proof (other than an opinion like mine is) that would indicate that Toyota "did anything wrong" at all.

    That's my opinion also. Honda and Nissan have more "room" to grow than Toyota, because they are much smaller and focus mainly on smaller cars. Nissan does have pickups, but seems to me they sell VERY few compared to Toyota - hence, when sales of pickups drops, Nissan doesn't have as far to fall.

    I'd say Toyota is doing just fine, considering the Camry is WAY ahead of Accord in sales and the Corolla is now within 6,000 cars of the Civic year to date.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I guess I wasn't the only one who noticed that Toyota is losing ground to its main rivals this year....one day after September was finalized, Toyota has announced long-term 0% financing on all its most popular models, including Corolla, Camry, RAV4, you name it...

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20081002/ANA05/810029930/1142/emailblast02&refse- ct=emailblast02

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, you can BET they did not do it because they had a meeting and said, "Nissan and Honda were down SLIGHTLY less than we were !!! We must counterattack !!!"

    They had a meeting and said, "The market is down and slow across the board. Let's see if we can get some buyers to come buy our cars."
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Hmmm. My bet might be different from yours...

    The bad news is Toyota's decline outpaced the market's.

    The campaign was an apparent response to new "employee pricing" incentives General Motors rolled out Aug. 20, said Junichi Yamaki, senior vice president for auto analysis at Moody's Japan.

    As a result, the Detroit automaker picked up market share in September, while Toyota's took a rare step backward.

    "It's a vicious cycle," Yamaki said.

    One red flag, however, is Toyota's inclusion of small cars such as the Corolla and Matrix in the 0-percent scheme. It shows that the market hurt is cutting deep, Yamaki said.


    "Needless to say, it's quite obvious dealer traffic is decreasing," Toyota spokesman Hideki Homma said today. "We needed to promptly do something."

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081003/FREE/810039990/1528/- - newsletter01

    Honda certainly saw no such need for itself. The only question in my mind is whether this bit of speculation might come true or not:

    The move, announced late yesterday......could fuel an expensive incentive war with cash-strapped rivals.

    I assume they are talking about the domestics there, because Honda and Nissan are neither cash-strapped nor desperate to be in a war of finance rates.

    And the article isn't quite accurate when it calls 0% 60-month financing "unprecedented" at Toyota, because Toyota did have such financing available across the board for a few months after 9/11, mimicking GM's program. I know it did, because I used it to buy my Celica at the time.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I think this statement proves that I am right when I say that they are focusing LESS on what the rivals did and MORE on just "selling more cars" which is the whole point of being a car company:

    "Needless to say, it's quite obvious dealer traffic is decreasing," Toyota spokesman Hideki Homma said today. "We needed to promptly do something."

    Notice he did not say "Nissan and Honda have TONS of customers and we have none."

    Car companies do not spend a ton of time worrying about competing with other car companies. They are just trying to sell the most cars they can.

    Toyota is not overly worried that they are losing customers to Nissan and Honda.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The Toyota spokesman is a PR flak paid to put the best possible spin on everything he announces, while still remaining within the bounds of credibility. He's hardly going to come out and say "our competitors are eating our lunch! We had to do something, and QUICKLY!".

    I was more interested in the comments of the auto industry analyst, who is a more neutral spectator to these events than the Toyota spokesman. ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    This is the part where you and I part ways:

    "Our competitors are eating our lunch! We had to do something, and QUICKLY!".

    I don't think being down a few percentage points in a month means that anyone's lunch is getting eaten.

    Like I said - it's one month of down sales, which affected almost EVERY car company.

    Show me a three-month or six-month trend where Toyota is getting their clock cleaned and THEN we might have ammo for a conversation about 'Yota losing their Mojo.

    But we ain't got one right now................
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Actually, one article I saw had Nissan as being down further than Toyota...

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Dispatch/US-auto-sales-plunge.asp- x

    Now the stats quoted here combined Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, and Nissan/Infiniti, so they're probably different than if were were just comparing Toyota, Honda, and Nissan.

    I think the main thing that's going on here is just that Nissan and Toyota were starting to rely more on trucks than Honda was, so they had further to fall. I think Toyota also just flat-out stopped building Tundras and idled the plant, about two months ago, in an attempt to deplete the inventory already on the dealer lots.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Dude, 3 months or 6? I am talking about YTD figures, that's 9 months!

    Oh, and this
    "Our competitors are eating our lunch! We had to do something, and QUICKLY!".

    Was supposed to be a silly exaggeration of what the Toyota spokesman definitely WOULDN'T say.

    But never mind, I will skedaddle, it's beginning to feel uncomfortably similar to a GM forum in here...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    LOL...

    Every month we go over this same scenario and next time the figures are published you bring out the same conclusion ( in error ) as the past month.

    With the US$ tanking against the Yen and Euro and Loonie there is NO INCENTIVE at all to ship short-supply vehicles like the Prius to the US market when those same vehicles shipped to say the UK can bring 20-40% more revenue. In fact it's just good business NOT to meet demand here. It's a relative waste of limited production and holding down supply holds pricing firm with demand outstripping supply.

    Now lets take a look at the top selling vehicles in the US in Sept and YTD...
    F series...... 32,700 ...... 392,700
    Silverado* .. 50,400 ...... 370,500
    Camry........ 29,500 ...... 355,600
    Corolla....... 21,300 ...... 279,700
    Accord....... 22,400 ...... 313,200
    Civic.......... 21,600 ....... 285,700

    *Apparent fleet dump and price dump. It appears that not to fall too far behind the outgoing F150 ( ewww ) and not to fall into 3rd place YTD behind the Camry that GM pulled out all the stops to pump up Sept. The average sales volume for the Jan - Jul period was about 37000 units and it was trending downward. Suddenly in Aug/Sept buyers from all over the continent suddenly woke up and bought every Silvy in sight ( 55K in Aug and 50K in Sep ). What was it about Aug/Sep that suddenly made the GM faithful so much more eager to buy? Why were these buyers so much smarter than those in the preceding 7-10 months?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Sneaky. It looks like the same ol' Corolla but under the skin it's entirely different from the engine(s) to the fuel economy to the safety features to the available amenities to the ride and comfort.

    It definitely is not intended to polarize the faithful which loved the Gen 9 look ...so they kept it and changed everything under the skin. It's a much much nicer vehicle.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    With the US$ tanking against the Yen and Euro and Loonie there is NO INCENTIVE at all to ship short-supply vehicles like the Prius

    Actually the Dollar is in the best condition ever against the Euro. The Yen is stronger. The CAD is way off from the USD. So it will be a good time for Germans to sell US their fine diesels. Could be why they are all gearing up. Could be VWs big chance to dethrone Toyota world wide.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Maybe not best condition ever (not even remotely close, go back 8-9 years and see how things were then)...but as good as it's been in maybe 18 months anyway. I just have to wonder if recession will cut more revenues to German makers than a low dollar.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That will teach me to believe a headline. Looks like we barely recovered from freefall.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    To do a valid comparo of 'performance' one would have to separate the BOF sales and Unibody sales when comparing Toyota and Honda. Compare apples to apples.Obviously Honda has Zero BOF sales. It's the BOF segment that's pulling down the market ( including Toyota ) the most.
    ..............BOF Sales..........Unibody Sales
    ...................YTD / % ............ YTD / %
    Honda.......... None .......... 1,180,500 / -1.1%
    Toyota....338,300 / -21% .. 1,793,300 / -7.5%

    Given this market Honda is doing very very well to be down only a little for the year. In the growing Unibody segment Toyota's -7.5% is decent. BOF vehcles are the anchor.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually the Dollar is in the best condition ever against the Euro.

    Mmmmmmm, not quite.

    I worked for a European company when the Euro first launched. It was at first at par with the US$ then the US$ was 10% stronger @ $1 / 1.1E then it began to turn around in the current administration to where..
    ..it was ~ $1.20 / 1E on Jan 1 06
    ..it was ~ $1.30 / 1E on Jan 1 07
    ..it was ~ $1.48 / 1E on Jan 1 08
    reaching a depth of $1.59 / 1E on July 1 08.

    Just taking the difference between Jan 1 07 to Jul 1 08, The US$ lost 22% of it's value to the Euro. Or IOW in that 18 month period the exporter, Toyota, could continue to ship to the US and aborb a 22% decrease in revenue or it could ship those units to Europe where actually the prices are 10-20% higher in the local currencies and those currencies are 20+% stronger than the US$.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    level off in the coming 3-5 years. As consumers get more savvy they will realize the Hype behind Toyota. Toyota quality isn't that great any longer. All car manufactures have caught up. Look a JD powers yourself or even Consumer reports or MSN reliability data. Lexus is the only star in Toyota. It was bound to happen in a market economy for other car makers to survive they had to bring quality/reliability up to what consumers demand. Consumers will find out you don't have to pay the Toyota premium price for a good quality, reliable vehicle.
    Media has played a huge role in putting Toyota and Honda on a pedestal. Case in point. I watch a show called Motor Week. They have a 2008 Honda Accord in thier longterm fleet. At 10,000 the A/C failed, at 18,000 the steering is making noises. They still had nothing but great things to say about this car!!???. If it were a GM/Ford/Chrysler/Dodge product.. we know what the story would have been..
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Consumers will find out you don't have to pay the Toyota premium price for a good quality, reliable vehicle.

    I agree with you up to a point. The question becomes: does one really have to pay a price premium to buy a Toyota?

    1. Toyota financing deals are very competitive with the industry, even the domestics, and in some cases there is substantial cash on the hood too.

    2. Compare model to model and you find that in many cases Toyota is toe to toe with competing models. Their cheapest model is under $12K with A/C, the same as GM and Hyundai, the only other two car companies competing down there in the cellar.

    3. You can get a Camry 4-cylinder LE with plastic wheel covers very reliably for about $19,000. That is also toe to toe with the pack, from what I can see.

    4. The same is generally true for trucks and the van, although Tundra fails to compete on price as much as the rest of the lineup.

    5. If you are one to prefer more equipment rather than less, you do begin to get into a place where Toyota option packages are expensive by comparison. In some cases, Toyotas have less standard equipment than their main competition, although I would say these cases are few in number.

    In general, I would think sales industrywide will level off for at least the next two years, thanks to the economy. In the 3-5 year range, I think Toyota will probably continue to profit from the misfortunes of the domestics about as much as the other automakers do, and by then we could be looking at a very different domestic landscape, with less manufacturers out there then than now. That makes it hard to do much in the way of accurate prognostication....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I just found this forum. This is a very interesting discussion with everything going on with GM, Ford and Chrysler. I read an article where toyota has revised their sales numbers for the year from 8.85 million units to 8.5 million units. And now their projected profit is $10 - $12 billion dollars. While their sales are down, it's obvious Toyota is still extremely healthy and can easily weather is sales downturn. heck with their profit this year, they could buy Chrysler and Ford if they wanted to.

    This also explains why Toyota went with 0% financing. They can afford to do it.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Looks like the demise is going to have to be delayed. Toyota brands make 3 of the top 5:

    Scion tops

    Scion was tops in the Consumer Reports annual reliability study released on Thursday, followed by Acura and Honda, as the results showed continued strength by Japanese brands and increasing quality from Ford.

    Toyota, a longtime mainstay near the top of the rankings, was fourth and was trailed by its luxury division, Lexus.

    Lincoln had the best showing of any domestic nameplate, ranking 11th. General Motors checked in with an 18th-place by its venerable Buick brand. Chrysler had a dismal showing, with its highest brand, Jeep, not appearing until the 28th spot.

    Overall, Ford's quality is nearly on par with import rivals Toyota and Honda, though its products remain a bit bland, said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' auto-test division. GM, on the other hand, offers sexier models, but its quality is a bit off, he said.

    "If you could merge the two--and I'm not saying you should--you could really get the best of both worlds," Champion quipped at a luncheon in downtown Detroit.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I laughed when folks were saying Toyota was losing a step. Waht these folks didn't realize is a) Toyota realizes their reputation for quality is everything in this country; b) the top management at Toyota recognized that they had an issue; and c) Toyota has the money to fix the problems.

    I expect them to remain near the top for the foreseeable future.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    was the first quarter in 8 years in which Toyota experienced a global sales decline, almost 4% in fact, while it is basically flat for the year:

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20081024/ANA02/810249985/1142/emailblast02&Profi- le=1142

    In the U.S. it is down 10.4% for the year.

    Kind of odd to see both Toyota and Scion beat Lexus in the reliability study, no? Typically Lexus is first place, by a wide margin in some years.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes I believe that is the flip side of being a BOF producer especially here in NA. On the one side of the coin when times were good BOF's were money making machines with profits of as much as $10000 - $20000 per unit, gagrice's Sequoia for instance. It was a good 10-15 year run where BOF sales and profits soared. In fact for the BOF makers it was heaven.

    OTOH auto profits are not so lavish. There is far more competition and the prices are lower. Luckily the volume is higher too so fixed costs can be relatively small. But where Honda is appearing to be 'stronger' now it came at a price. Over the last 15 yrs the massive profits from BOF vehicles foregone at Honda kept its financial results well behind Toyota. One might say that the huge profits from the BOF's helped fund the R&D and marketing of the Toyota hybrids.

    Now this year however Honda is benefiting from not having a 'BOF anchor' on its sales and financial results. It's just a new environment with new conditions to consider and new courses to take. Honda doesn't have to fight the economic current while dragging an anchor behind it. GM, Ford, Chrysler and Toyota all have to do both. However Toyota's 'anchor' is relatively smaller than the others, it's ship is more sound and well-trimmed since it has not ignored the basic business model that got it to No 1,i.e. efficient, durable, reliable autos.

    Again as in the beginning everything at Toyota USA revolves around the Camry and the Corolla.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2008/10/01-1-sales.html

    October 1, 2008 - Torrance, CA - Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today reported September sales of 144,260 vehicles, a decrease of 29.5 percent from last September, on a daily selling rate basis. Calendar-year-to-date (CYTD) sales total 1,793,303 units, down 10.4 percent from the same period last year.

    The Toyota Division posted September sales of 128,215 units, down 28.9 percent from last September. The Lexus Division reported September sales of 16,045 units, a decrease of 33.4 percent from the year-ago month.

    And from Forbes on the Japanese market?

    Toyota Motor Corp (nyse: TM - news - people ) fell 5.4 percent to 3,510 yen after the Nikkei business daily said the automaker's annual operating profit will likely fall some 40 percent from last year to around 1.3 trillion yen for the year to next March.

    Still not in the red but maybe this economy will open a whole new path for Korean cars.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    So, let's see now, Toyota paid for your new Camry engine (did you have all the receipts for oil and filters by the way?) and they pay to fix your son's truck and you're still unhappy?

    Fortunately for Toyota there are millions of satisfied Toyota owners out there or Toyota would be in real deep water after everybody read your post.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Wow, this guy has bad luck, considering the number of actual sludge cases are next to zero and the number of bad camshafts on the Tundra was a few thousand at most.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    My dealer and Toyota both say it is fine for me to do my oil changes, as long as I have receipts for the oil and filter and keep records of date and mileage when I did the oil changes.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    He doesn't just have bad luck, he has the worst luck in all of history. He also had an Odyssey van that needed some sort of major overhaul (was it the doors? the transmission? I forget) while still under warranty.

    He is also stretching the limits of his credibility by posting in every single thread here at Edmunds over and AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN with his story. Even in threads that are totally unrelated to the tale of woe he wishes to relate. :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Don't feed the trolls. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    C'mon we have to have a few Toyota bashers. I still have not forgiven them for the crappy engine in my 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser. Though I would love to have that vehicle back with a small block Chevy V8 engine. I was hopeful with the FJ Cruiser. It turned out to be a total dud. And sales back me up on that one. My Sequoia is a decent vehicle, except a gas hog on this designer CA gas. Not too bad on real RUG.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    C'mon we have to have a few Toyota bashers

    But we always have you, gagrice! :-P

    Seriously though, I think you are a bit like me in that you tend to be something of a malcontent regardless of what you buy, and you quickly sell off the occasional car you really like (the Passat diesel in your case, if I read you right).

    I have had a lot of new Toyotas over the last quarter century, and I know with 100% certainty that they are not as reliable or well-built as they were 10, 15 years ago. But they are still a pretty good deal in a market where almost no-one prioritizes fuel economy or weight reduction in their designs.

    And they build fairly decent trucks, I think, despite your experiences to the contrary. ;-)

    I remain fairly convinced that the sloppiness of the QC from about 2002 to 2007 combined with the cheapness of the materials they use then and now is going to cost them in about 5 years' time. Around 2012 we will begin to see the first wave (EVER, for this company) of former customers who don't replace their vehicle with another car of the same make.

    Before then Toyota could do itself a BIG favor by getting the cheap stuff out of its vehicle interiors, before they get the rep GM deservedly had for at least two decades. I thought it notable that in a recent comparison in C&D of a half dozen large crossovers around the $35K price point, Highlander was dead last in terms of interior materials. They called it out for having cheap hard materials all over inside, and said the Hyundai (the HYUNDAI!) was luxurious by comparison. And the HL is a pretty new model.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Malcontent. I always thought of myself as a Curmudgeon. Malcontent better describes me. Both in vehicles and Government. I also agree that the mid 1990s was the peak of perfection for Toyota. My independent Lexus mechanic agrees with us.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I have had a lot of new Toyotas over the last quarter century, and I know with 100% certainty that they are not as reliable or well-built as they were 10, 15 years ago. But they are still a pretty good deal in a market where almost no-one prioritizes fuel economy or weight reduction in their designs

    Au contraire, mon ami.

    I also know with 100% certainty that my 2005 Prius is every bit as reliable and capable as my 1989 Camry or 1997 Camry both of which went in excess of 175,000 mi with NOTHING significant going wrong. The first Camry was built in Japan as was the Prius the 1997 Camry was built in KY.... ;) just to put that oft-quoted false impression to rest.

    There is almost nothing that ever goes wrong with the 4Runner...ever...no matter what the year.

    The Corolla? Simple, effective and utterly reliable....almost indefinitly.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ... the 'Last Man Standing'.

    Except for the fact that the JY has taken a rocket ride to new highs in strength which may kill off all imports from Japan to the US the 4Runner and the XTerra appear to be the last midsized BOF SUVs in the NA market.

    Every other one of these ubiquitous commuters is dead, being replaced by a Crossover of some type, or will be dead by next year when the Explorer leaves the stage.

    If the JY / US$ stays under 100 / 1 then the 4Runner may stay in Japan or be sold in other more lucrative markets. Then there will be none here.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    I thought the days for gmac to write auto loans are numbered.

    my local toyota tv ads are more blatant: "ONLY toyota has the money to offer you 0% financing", so basically it is telling gm and ford to stuff it and making sure the public knows the countdown clocks for gm and ford are ticking faster by the day. It's a cruel, cruel world out there.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, there's probably a difference between what you and I call significant, eh? ;-)

    And I never said they were unreliable or anything, just less reliable and less well-built than they used to be. Toyota used to give attention to every detail of even the little $9000 Tercels. Now they pump some models out in such high volume that lots of little things get missed. You see it in the reviews and if you buy them regularly as I do (and I know you do too, kdh, I don't mean to imply you don't), you see it in the cars too. They are gradually losing their edge, although I would still put them well above some other carmakers, such as Chrysler on the build quality front, and VW on the reliability front.

    I would say they are still a pretty good deal, for the most part. I think Honda may walk away from them in the next few years, not in net profits just because Toyota is so gi-normous, but rather in the little subjective things like build quality and customer satisfaction.

    And I strongly believe that a lot of the customers between 2002 and 2007 who put up with lots of little glitches or big recalls, as well as Toyota's notably cheap interiors, will change brands at their next vehicle purchase, which is still in the future at this point. Will they be wise to do so? I dunno. Ford is said to be making big leaps in quality and reliability, there's always Honda, and even to some extent the upsy-downsy Nissan as viable competition.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    my local toyota tv ads are more blatant: "ONLY toyota has the money to offer you 0% financing"

    I have already seen Chevy ads on TV countering that message by specifically repeating again and again that Chevy dealers have "the vehicle you want and the financing to make it happen", over and over and over. It was a little annoying.

    It sure is a chaotic car market this year though.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The question is (and I look to you for inside info! :-)), WILL the next 4Runner be sold in the States?

    And while it is not technically BOF, I count the Grand Cherokee in this group simply because it has the off-road ruggedness and the towing capacity (and the dismal fuel economy) to compete with these trucks. So that is one model that will still be around, at least until Chrysler dissolves and Jeep's new owners decide that Grand Cherokee's time has come to an end...

    Oh, and don't forget Wrangler while you are at it!

    Overall, I will be glad to see these midsize BOFers off the roads permanently, they are huge gas wasters considering most of them do nothing more than what could be accomplished with a crossover or even a sedan. But I am surprised to see the full-size BOFs begin to go away, with GM's announcement that it will not redesign the Suburban for a next gen. It will be much bigger news, IMO, if the Sequoia is the last man standing in that market segment.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They called it out for having cheap hard materials all over inside

    My 2007 Sequoia has more comfortable seats than the 2008 model. I had a hard time getting past the ugly to even sit in the one on the showroom floor. I would never get my wife to buy one. She was even more turned off on the looks than I am. When people come to the realization that the 2007 was the last of the great Sequoias I should be able to get my money back out of it. With $2 gas I may even make a buck. Not likely though.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    The Corolla? Simple, effective and utterly reliable....almost indefinitly.

    Which in my opinion is a major problem. I usually wait for cars I own to need a repair then I cut them loose. My last Corolla got to the 8 year mark and nothing. I finally had to get rid of it because the windshield washer reservoir was empty. :)
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    I missed my $8k tercel, you paid $8k for trickle down first gen lexus quality, that's how good the car was. :cry:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Rather than generalities you'll have to be more specific about 'less well-built'. I disagree unless you are speaking about 'sensitivities' rather than 'quality of assembly'.

    It's a good question concerning the quality of the interiors and it's one that I'm sure the designers and product people and market people struggle over constantly. There are multiple variable that have to be factored into the final product and many are in conflict with one another.

    Production Volume - Sales Volume - Sales Price - Interior feel & touch - Safety equipment - Exterior styling - Interior amenities - Engine/Drivetrain technology - Fuel Efficiency

    Taking the Corolla as an example.....how should they..
    ..make the vehicle drop dead gorgeous inside and out....keep the price realistic for the segment...sell in large volumes...include all the modern safety equipment...satisfy the expectations of the targetted buyers.

    I've noted this before but here is a key point on this Gen 10 Corolla..
    The LE trim model in the 2009 Corolla is $2000 LESS in price than the 1997 LE Camry ( $18500 vs $20500 ). That's not surprising since it's Corolla and Camry we're discussing.

    However...
    The Corolla is nearly the same size as that Camry .. shorter but about the same width and height
    The 1.8L Corolla is more powerful than that 2.2L Camry.
    The 1.8L Corolla is far more fuel efficient than that 2.2L Camry...especially with fuel at $3 and $4 a gallon.
    The new Corolla at this price has 6 airbags, active head restraints, ABS, VSC/Trac.
    The old Camry at that price had 2 airbags and ABS.....nothing else was even offered.
    The new Corolla has a CD player and AUX input.
    The old Camry had an AM/FM + tape.
    Both vehicles have manual driver seats but the Camry only had Tilt SW wheres the Corolla has Tilt & Telescope.

    Leather, Alloys, Spoiler and Sunroof were/are options on both vehicles ....at the same prices in 2008 as in 1997!!!!!

    With inflation figured in at 2% pa over that 10 yr period the $20500 1997 Camry today 'should' cost ~$25000 today. That's about $4500 more. In fact the 2008 Corolla is more powerful, more fuel efficient, safer, with more modern amenities at a price that's almost $7000 LESS EXPENSIVE in current dollars and they still make money on the vehicle while selling it in huge quantities. Finally to top it off the vehicle is dead solid reliable for as long as anyone might want to drive it just like my 1997 Camry was.

    OK yes I admit that the 97 Camry had a somewhat softer feel inside and it did drive quieter ( a little ). So yes I will admit that the 09 Corolla is 'less well-built' than my '97 Camry in terms of my sensitivities. But on balance would I pay $25000 today for a vehicle made like my '97 Camry when there was this '09 Corolla competing against it? Never.

    The real question is..."How has Toyota been able to maintain the dependability and reliability, improve the efficiency and safety, while lowering the price some $7000 ( adjusted )?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Which in my opinion is a major problem. I usually wait for cars I own to need a repair then I cut them loose. My last Corolla got to the 8 year mark and nothing. I finally had to get rid of it because the windshield washer reservoir was empty.

    Well if it makes ya feel any better, my uncle's '03 Corolla started having problems with the catalytic converter just after the 100,000 mile mark. And in 2007, it needed a new water pump. So the things aren't completely indestructible. I think the catalytic converter was around $600, and I forget now about the water pump...maybe $400-500? Other than that though, it's been a good car. I forget how many miles it has on it now...I'd guess at least 150,000?
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    catalytic converter usually lasts about 100k mi, so is water pump (miles driven, not years driven). I looked at both as wear and tear items as your car ages and accumulate mileage, since there is nothing you can do to prolong the life of those components
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    I looked at both as wear and tear items as your car ages and accumulate mileage, since there is nothing you can do to prolong the life of those components

    Well, I can proudly say that those are two items that haven't failed on my 142,000 mile 2000 Dodge Intrepid. :shades: But alas, I can't proudly say that it hasn't had other malfunctions (both bearing hubs in the suspension, camshaft and crankshaft position sensors, leaky thermostat housing, a/c sprouting a leak) :sick:
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    ...so is water pump (miles driven, not years driven). I looked at both as wear and tear items as your car ages and accumulate mileage, since there is nothing you can do to prolong the life of those components

    Actually there is, you can change your coolant in line with the manufacturer's recommendations.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    There is nothing to be gained by trying to declare:

    Because Carmaker X sold me my car that got 1,000,000 miles, then Carmaker X makes the best cars EVER.

    or

    Because Carmaker Z sold me a car which had an engine blow at 35,000 miles, then Carmaker Z makes the worst cars EVER.

    There is no point in that discussion.

    What CAN be useful is looking at long-term owner statistics over a large group of owners. Like Consumer Reports does. And J.D. Power.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Rather than generalities you'll have to be more specific about 'less well-built'.

    Things on the inside feel easy to break, are easy to break, are installed misaligned or with huge gaps. Components the car over are of lower quality and are less durable over time in order to reduce cost. Adding plastic to the interior ad infinitum (until there are no soft-touch surfaces left) and reducing components' cost until their durability is substantially affected are both slippery slopes, and Toyota has been travelling down both of them at its peril since about 1995.

    As for value of the Corolla, well it's decent but not outstanding. A base Corolla XRS, at an MSRP of about $20,000 has standard crank windows. I'm a fan of window cranks, but I know I am the exception to the rule. And how does that compare to the market?

    Because no-one is comparing an '09 Corolla to a '97 Camry and going "Wow! What a deal!". They compare it to an '09 Civic/Sentra/Focus/etc. Is there any compact model sold today whose highline trim (XRS is Corolla's top of the line) does not include power windows?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Your first paragraph confirmed exactly what I was saying as well. The sentitivities of the Corolla seem not as nice, less substantial perhaps, more breakable(?) well that remains to be seen after 7-10 yrs I believe.

    But yes I will agree that the touchy-feelie part of the interiors have been minimalized in order to keep help costs in line - therefore selling prices - while adding more important features such as improved economy, better safety features and more room. If you want to hear it...'Yes the interior does feel less expensive.'

    Why? Because it is less expensive. Why? Because that's what is necessary to keep the costs down in order to keep the price of the Corolla in the high teens rather than the low-mid $20K range. No vehicle maker can add all the desired features to a vehicle, design it to be drop dead gorgeous, give it best interiors and still expect to sell it for a profit at $17000 - $18000. It can't be done.....by any vehicle maker.

    Using the XRS as an example is not really valid. It's less than 3% of total sales. It doesn't reflect anything. When an XRS does arrive ocassionally it's loaded up with nearly all the features at $23700+. It's a hoot to drive because of the relatively large engine in a small, light body. The LE trim however is the bread and butter for the bulk of the buying public. That's the targetted audience. Why build a mini-Lexus for a user that only wants a Toyota engine/tranny, 4 wheels, 4 doors, rock-ribbed reliability, excellent fuel economy and power windows and locks - nothing more. That's the LE trim and it sells itself.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well I hear you, kdh. I know you are wedded to that viewpoint.

    Me, while I don't entirely disagree, I know that if I were running Toyota I would be wondering how Honda, which sells a Civic with all the popular equipment and nice interior materials for $17000-18000, and Mazda which sells a Mazda3 with all the popular equipment and nice interior materials for $17000-18000, manage to do what they do.

    This is also the first year in a while that there were months when Civic beat Corolla in monthly sales. Wasn't Civic the #1 seller of all cars and trucks in May? ;-)

    But whatever. The real sneaky thing about the auto industry is that you don't get punished NOW in sales for the little things you leave out, don't attend to, make as cheap as possible, you get punished TEN YEARS from now, when those customers replace their Toyotas with something made by somebody else. It seems like after a very rocky few years in the early 00s, Toyota DOES have its eye back on the ball as far as QC goes, but it still needs to remember that people have lots of choices when it comes to reliable, well outfitted cars at a decent price.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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