Well they certainly won't be building Prius IIs in San Antonio, I would bet my hat on that. They will still be importing them, right alongside the Prius IIIs. Which leads right back to the issue of the day - the very strong yen in relation to the dollar, and the consequent destruction of Japanese automaker profits from offshore operations in 2008.
First time I ever drove a Prius II, in 2004, I thought the interior was fairly cheap and flimsy, middling quality at best, and now they propose to cheapen it? If they are going to pull thousands of dollars of cost out of this car, and they are going to do all that cutting in the interior, I shudder to think what it will be like when they are done.
The Insight II is basically the new Fit with a hybrid powertrain. Cheapish interior, but not horrible.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Truly frugal buyers won't bother with either one and buy a Fit or Yaris instead. You have to drive an awful lot to make up for the price difference between a hybrid and ICE car.
As you know, this is the well-worn (here at Edmunds) "is the extra cost of the hybrid worth it?" discussion, and for some it WILL be worth it, for others it won't.
The Insight II will cost $1500 more than the same-size Fit Sport, and have more features. Even if you value the extra features at $0, someone driving the Insight 12-15K per year could make up the cost differential in 2-2.5 years with $4 gas, 4-5 years with $2 gas, and be consuming less oil all along the way.
The Toyota comparison is even more favorable to the hybrid, given the price jump of the new Matrix last year and using the current Prius (priced around $20K later this year) and the current Matrix (the closest model in size) as the basis for comparison.
People will make their choices.....
The question is, if the Prius II costs $20K and the Prius III costs $25K while making only 8% better gas mileage and being a half second quicker to 60 mph, which will people choose, ESPECIALLY in this down economy? I'm thinking most will choose the current/old Prius, not the new one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
anyone here knows what equipment the japanese prius II is going to ditch in order to lower the price?
drop the touch screen and use a manual a/c control would save at least a couple grand? I mean yota could've sell it at cost and crush the insight. But price it too low would steal a lot of corolla's sales.
On the flip side of your question, what new technology will the Prius III make available to the customer? Will it be enough to make the extra $5 grand investment seem worth it?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't know, but I expect Prius buyers aren't really looking to be "sold" on one. They're more or less looking for the image that the car provides. That being the environmentally conscious, frugal, extroverted type. To me a Prius owner reminds me of the same people with psychadelic painted VW Buses during the hippie years. I don't think they care that A prius has a low return on value more than they care about burning less fuel and emitting less polution.
People have bought cars "for image" for many decades now.
Having people buy a Prius for what image they want to project is nothing different than a millionaire sports star buying a Ferrari for his image, or a family buying a blinged-out SUV for their image.
The difference in those scenarios is that the Prius buyer feels like they are doing something good for someone ELSE, whereas the other two examples are for personal vain or satisfaction, and not to help anyone else.
This next year's economy is going to be the worst that nearly any working adult has ever experienced. Any and all efforts to gain one more sale are good ideas.
There is very little possible to 'cheapen' the interior in terms of materials and it wouldn't make sense to begin to use completely new materials. But as anythingbutgm noted this G2 Prius has already paid for itself. It's beyond breakeven so the only costs to build one now are marginal direct costs like steel, plastic, rubber, aluminum and labor...No more marketing and no fixed costs to recoup. This variable-cost-only vehicle might cost as little as $12000 to build and ship so it could be sold as low as $19,995 MSRP and still make money. :surprise:
What they will likely do is sell the current package No 1, which is what is currentlly sold to the fleets. It has no SKS and no backup camera and currently lists for about $22,000 MSRP. But that includes all Fixed Costs and Marketing charges. The new Gen 2.8 wouldn't have to be priced to cover these expenses, variable cost only.
Yes the truly frugal will do exactly that. But in the same way that you'd never be seen in an econobox there are a lot of buyers who will never drive or own a vehicle as small and basic as a Fit/Insight II or Yaris or Versa. I'm one as well. Forget 'payback' I won't drive one, period.
It doesn't matter how good the fuel economy is, for me it's too small and too basic.
Many say the same about the Prius too. But this is a huge market in normal times and there are many many strata of buyers looking for excellent fuel economy - but there are some sacrifices that they won't make.
Now if the $20000 buyer wants a little more than a strippie Fit/Yaris/Versa such as a Corolla, Mazda3, Insight II or maybe a larger more powerful Prius G2.8 then there are sales to be captured. Toyota is making sure that Honda doesn't hog all the under $20K buyers wanting excellent fuel economy.
The new Prius G3 packages have been already announced at the NAIAS. There are 3 initially.
Silver which is roughly similar to this year's Package #4 and which will prolly sell for about $26000. Gold which is similar to this year's Package #6, plus Heated Seats, XM, Tilt/Tele SW, Adjustable Dr Seat, EV/Eco/Pwr Modes, Sunroof with Solar Panels to power a heat evac unit in summer. Price is likely to be in the $30K-ish range at least Platinum.. all of the above, except the Sunroof/Solar Panels, plus 17 AW's, LED headlights, Intelligent Parking assist, Lane Keep Assist and Dynamic Laser Cruise Ctrl w/ Pre-collision System. My guess is $33000.
Those are the packages being offered to the initial buyers for pre-orders. When the vehicles begin to hit in large volumes I'm sure that there will be 6-8 packages in total for the wider population.
I've been invited to go to DC on Monday to get a preview of the G3 Prius from the Prius Marketing Team and the Chief Engineer. Updates to follow.
JD Power has determined that the Prius has the highest 'I will definitely buy another ......' at 94% of current owners. The Corvette is second at 92% and the Mini Cooper is third.
You're right current owners don't need to be sold again. 'Just sign me up.'
The image-conscious Prius buyer wants everyone else to think he/she is doing good for others - which has no relation to the good actually existing. Seems to be just as vain...
And how much pollution was created to make this vehicle instead of keeping a previous model efficient vehicle? Compare that to using public transport? And what about the other car in the garage? If one has a Prius and a Denali instead of a pair of normal cars, is there really a gain?
Prius drivers are not immune from having vain image aspirations.
Does not matter, because the lifetime pollution total of the Prius is less than it's gas counterparts. And all along the way, the Prius is reducing emissions.
It matters very much. Short term impacts are not worthless. Who can say what the lifetime of the car will be, or how often the status seeking eco-weenie will demand another car to be produced so his ego can be stroked with the latest "green" trend.
Defend those self-righteous eco-ambitions to the death.
I never said it applied to every Prius owner. Some simply want something with low operating costs after intial purchase. Some want to feel good and couldn't care less about what others think. But some want everyone to know.
Yes, buying a questionable looking backwards turtle car is admirable. Reducing what in the scheme of things is an insignificant amount of gas and pollution should really put one in line to be canonized. It really makes a difference.
People mock those supercars and SUVs too, no reason any other should be immune.
You're making huge assuptions here about the general buying public from a specific example or two which is always wrong to do. Logical Fallacy.
You assume a driver gives up a fuel efficient vehicle to move into a new more fuel efficient vehicle. There are soo many other possibilities that you just haven't considered.
You also assume a Prius and a Denali ( you must know someone who has both ) cancelling each other out. A family is much more likely to have a minivan and a Prius.
There is no 'right or 'wrong' in these decisions. It's only about buying a car to drive. People buy them for all kinds of reasons. Only others wanting to make judgements seem to impute some 'right' or 'wrong' connotation to this action. It's an action done thousands of times a day why is there a right/wrong or good/bad attached to this vehicle.
If some feel that they are doing something good for themselves and society....so what!!!!! It's their money.
If some just like the vehicle....so what!!!! If some just want to spend less on gas....so what!!! If some just want to support Toyota and/or new technology....so what!!! If some just want...............................It's their money.
A huge number of vehicle purchases are made because '..some want everyone to know' that.... ...they 'made it' ...they're frugal and sensible ...they aren't concerned with other's opinions ...they're 'tough' ...they're a 'real man' ...they're a feminine woman ...they can blow your doors off ...they're doing something 'right' for the environment
Why does this reason bother you so much? Just ignore it if it does. Itseems like it's like a burr in your saddle where the other reasons don't affect you in the least.
But why is this one vehicle such a burr in your saddle? Over on certain GM sites two words will set the site on fire for a couple of hours.
'Prius' and 'Tundra'
Why? They're damn vehicles. Nothing more. Why does it matter what one thinks when one buys a Prius or Mustang or Volvo. It's a damn vehicle that in 15-20 yrs will be worthless.
I don't know, but I expect Prius buyers aren't really looking to be "sold" on one.
Toyota's original plan for Prius was for it to be a technology showcase, which is where my remark was directed. And for that matter, they are probably onto something there - some buyers probably bought Prius because they perceived it to be technologically advanced, at least back in '04-'05.
I see from kdh's remarks that they are set to introduce a fair amount of new tech into the Prius III, to keep it up with the times, and that's a good thing. My hope/fear is twofold: 1. that Toyota is aware we are in a recession and is not making a business model around 200K annual sales of the Gen 3, and 2. that Toyota is not pricing Prius right out of the market. After all, it will still be a smallish car, which at $30K is a challenging sale, even given its hybrid powertrain (STILL the highest-rated car for fuel economy on sale in the U.S.) and new tech features.
My fears on both counts (1) and (2) will be compounded tenfold if Toyota sells the Prius II at a price of $20K right next to this new model.
On a sidenote, I think it's funny that people take such offense at the idealistic view those few buyers take that they are making a standout statement on their eco principles by buying a Prius. Sure there are a few buyers like that but you can hardly ascribe that philosophy to all Prius owners everywhere, and so what if those few folks think that? Buying a Mercedes says you are rich, buying a Maserati says you are rich and like to show it, buying a Porsche says you are in your midlife crisis, buying a mondo-SUV says you are a big strong man with lots of outdoor pursuits, I could go on. All these themes are equally laughable.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
At the NAIAS 'reveal' it was stated that the goal for the G3 is 180,000 units of sales "..in the first full year". Interpret that as you may. Since the vehicle will only begin to arrive in June I guess that excludes 2009, so 2010.
However.. if the economy stays in the pits,...if the economy is so severely damaged that the recovery takes years to bring us back to where we were,....if the currency issue gets worse and worse, ...if the pricing in the high $20's is too much for our diminished budgets, ...if...
I think the G2.8 Prius stripped down will serve a good purpose. It will help catch those that might have stepped up to a $25000 G3 in the past but now cannot afford to do so. I think that it will also capture some new buyers, some. I also think that it will serve the same function as the Corolla to the Camry.
The Corolla guards the rear of the Camry. It allows the Camry to be sold at $22000 MSRP and up. When I started here in the late 90's the new Camry's were being discounted into the $15900 range when things got tough. Now that doesn't happen very much if at all. Never here actually.
Thus too the G2.8 Prius will guard the backside of the G3 Prius. "I'd love to have a Prius but $26500 is just too much." "Well, how about one that looks the same, has the same room, still gets 48mpg day after day, is rock solid and dependable....and only costs $19,995?"
Soccer-Moms, Enviro-weenies, Fat old Caddy owners, ghetto dubs, redneck trucks with gun racks in the window all are potential targets of ridicule and mocking.
Or...we could just not mock anyone or anything. They're just damn vehicles.
I think Prius ownership is admirable. While I don't need to drive something super exciting everyday, I have driven a Prius and it's about as much fun to drive as piloting an electric wheelchair. They also get very expensive depending on option package, getting dangerously close to the $30K range. One could buy an $18K Honda Fit Sport and save more over five years than the $30K Prius owner, who will not in five years make up the savings in gas between the price difference of the two cars. Not even close actually. I don't think the Prius is a particularly good looking car either, but looks are in the eyes of the beholder and should play no part of a purchase decision.
So yes, I think it's admirable for anyone to buy such an expensive, unfun car to drive for what amounts to small gas savings over your garden variety Honda Civic/Honda Fit (my new car!), Toyota Corolla, Nissan Versa, Hyundai Elantra, Ford Focus etc. But really for all of the environmental concern espoused by Prius owners, I wonder what the environmental cost of lithium ion batter disposal is? Not to mention the owners cost for replacing those bad boys.
I won't knock anyone for buying a Prius, but I'm still not sold on the cost/savings benefit of that car. Plus I really would be depressed walking out to drive that thing every day.
This has never been a question that the less expensive vehicle is the most 'cost effective' one in most cases. The only question in a purely cost effectiveness calculation is where is the turning point, the 'minimum' in calculus . As it turns out it's about $20500 when comparing a basic package #2 Prius to a less expensive vehicle ( depending on fuel prices of course ). So any vehicle less than $20000 is the better choice purely on the numbers. Everyone seems to understand this intuitively.
But what if every vehicle under 'midsized' is disqualified from the comparison....my own case for example. I will not drive a small vehicle such as a Corolla or Civic and definitely not a Versa, Yaris or Fit under any circumstance. The 09 Corolla is right at the tipping point in this criterium since it's nearly the same size, power and quietness as the late 90's Camry's.
But in comparing these two so dissimilar vehicles, the Fit Sport and the Prius, you open an entirely new question. In your stated view you are willing to choose a smaller vehicle with less options. Thus would you also consider a larger vehicle with more options...but also more miles? If you are comparing only the economics ( not styling or driving ) then it's also a perfectly valid choice to compare a new Honda Fit Sport with a 2 or 3 y.o. Prius at the same price. Now everything changes. The Prius is a killer deal - just by the numbers.
the image thing holds true back in 2004/05 when the G2 came out and a whole lot of people were getting on the wait list and pay way over msrp . Let's just forget it's a hybrid, look at it as a mundane commuter hatchback with dead steering that can comfortably seats four with all the safety equipments plus a 48 mpg, what do you think the market price point should be? I understand everyone here wants a mazda3 hatch or fit sport to scoot around, so do I. For the majority of the buying public, a comparatively equipped matrix will be pushing $19k and wins the ugly contest handsdown compare to the prius. Like nippon said, the development costs were already paid for and it costs fairly little to produce the G2. The only problem I see yota pricing it competitively is the currency fluctuation since it's still made in nippon.
Yesterday I got a close up look at, in and around the new 2010 Gen 3 Prius at a preliminary showing to the DC Auto show. It was presented by the Prius Marketing Team which is travelling around the country o some of the local auto shows after NAIAS.
Pricing is not known and will not be known until April. Preliminary thoughts from Detroit and other sources is that the pricing for the bulk of the volume in sales will not be changed very much from the Gen 2's; i.e. MSRP's from $24000-ish to $30000-ish. The premium, low volume Platinum Edition may be well above $30000.
The exterior looks very much the same.. the tail lights and faux spoiler are sharper; the colors and shape are very similar, except sleeker ( with a lower cd ); 16" and 17" alloys are offered; the HIDs are gone, replaced by halogens and in the top trim LEDs and halogens; the rear taillights are LEDs; a sunroof with a small solar panel array is an option.
Under the hood is where the bulk of the changes are.. there are NO BELTS anywhere; the 1.8L 2ZR engine is better suited to the size and weight of the vehicle -especially in NADM high-speed highway situations; the 42 mph cutoff speed on the ICE when decelerating remains; the 'thermos bottle' is gone replaced by a EGR system to heat up the engine quicker - a gas heat exchanger; the NiMH battery is smaller; the Star Safety System is standard on all models the PSD has a second gearset like the TCH and HH to allow the MG2 to spin faster.
The interior is significantly changed.. tilt and telescoping SW; adjustable driver's seat, heated seats added to the leather option; the base models lose the MFD screen in favor of a simpler one on the dash where the driving info is; the touch and look of the new console is much nicer IMO; the Navi system is the same Gen 4 now in the Venza - slick; the back seats and the rear cargo are essentially the same although the head room in back is somewhat better; active headrest restraints are standard now. the steering wheel controls are either ultra sensitive or heat sensitive. Either way as your brush your fingers across them the appropriate button on the semi-headsup display come to life. It eliminates the need to look down to see where your fingers are in relation to which button.
The Fuel Economy should be 8-10% better with much improvement on the highway segment especially at 75 and 80 mph.
Plugins are an option for the future but the reality is that there is just not much money to be made from them for some time to come. They will likely be one option among many.
Hybrid technology is just so simple and reliable now that it's next step is to expand to a wider field. The costs are down dramatically, thus the cost savings are able to be 'rolled back into the vehicle' in terms of additional options and safety equipment. The limiting factor for all hybrid vehicle makers as of today is supply of batteries and hybrid components. No more can be made at the moment so until some of the new battery-producing factilities come on stream there's little incentive to expand the technology to other vehicles.
I wanted to do that but didn't see it in the list before I bugged out to go snowboarding this morning. When I see ModBob on IM, I'll put him on the task of digging it out of the archives.
You're off-topic btw - gotta be a Toyota rhyme in here.
With so many aftermarket shops converting Priuses to plug-ins now, Toyota should offer some sort of dealer-installed plug-in conversion package that customers could opt for and finance with the vehicle.
Plug-in isn't rocket science any more, it is just fairly expensive, and I can appreciate why Toyota is not yet ready to make it a factory option. But the dealer-installed thing makes sense, I think.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It is a win for Toyota when someone gets the mod done. They are no longer responsible for the 10 year 150k warranty. Besides you think Toyota wants a giant lawsuit when a Prius burns up like the one conversion did with A123 Li-Ion batteries? I don't see how it could be that much of a money maker for Toyota.
Toyota has never been a huge proponent for plugins other than being one of several options available. They are definitely not for everyone, not for most people for a good 10+ yrs IMO.
Why take any responsibility on such a product, plugin conversion, if there's little or no volume or profit involved. That being said they do want to be a supplier of aftermarket truck accessories!! Why? There are HUGE volumes involved thus HUGE potential profits. Toyota clearly only wants to be an OEM of vehicles - unless there is good potential profit to be made after the sale.
I agree that I don't think that there is much money to be made in aftermarket plugin conversions.
Looked at a Toyota Yaris for a while And decided that it just wasn't my style Test-drove a Scion xA and tC Convincing the wife on either proved to not be easy
Yes, this was first reported a few weeks ago. But the loss does not include all of Toyota's other holdings, like Hino Commercial Trucks, etc. If you include everything else, Toyota still made money this year.
OKYO (AP) - Toyota, the world's largest automaker, sank into the red for the October-December quarter and acknowledged Friday it was heading for its first annual net loss since 1950 because of plunging global sales and the strong yen.
Joining a string of Japanese companies that have slashed forecasts, Toyota Motor Corp. said it expects a net loss of 350 billion yen ($3.85 billion) for the year through March.
That's a stunning reversal from the record 1.72 trillion yen profit the maker of the Prius hybrid and Lexus luxury line had earned the previous fiscal year. In December, the company thought it would eke out a small annual net profit, but the outlook has darkened since then, especially with the dramatic contraction in the U.S. auto market on which Toyota depends so heavily.
For the fiscal third quarter, Toyota racked up a loss of 164.7 billion yen ($1.81 billion), down sharply from the 458.6 billion yen profit it had the same period the previous year, as the global slump squelched sales.
Quarterly sales plunged 28.4 percent to 4.8 trillion yen.
Toyota said the last time it had the equivalent of a net loss was in 1950, when it reported just parent results under different accounting standards than it uses now.
The damage to Toyota's bottom line was particularly pronounced because the company had been on such an aggressive growth track in recent years, but the downturn came extremely suddenly, said Yasuaki Iwamoto, analyst with Okasan Securities Co. in Tokyo.
The something new is that the loss is about 3-4 times greater than what was reported earlier. Ouch!
Well, I can't help them personally. My 2 Camrys are about to be paid off in the next couple of months. They're going strong at 57K and 37K miles and I have no need or intention to replace them.
Comments
First time I ever drove a Prius II, in 2004, I thought the interior was fairly cheap and flimsy, middling quality at best, and now they propose to cheapen it? If they are going to pull thousands of dollars of cost out of this car, and they are going to do all that cutting in the interior, I shudder to think what it will be like when they are done.
The Insight II is basically the new Fit with a hybrid powertrain. Cheapish interior, but not horrible.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Insight II will cost $1500 more than the same-size Fit Sport, and have more features. Even if you value the extra features at $0, someone driving the Insight 12-15K per year could make up the cost differential in 2-2.5 years with $4 gas, 4-5 years with $2 gas, and be consuming less oil all along the way.
The Toyota comparison is even more favorable to the hybrid, given the price jump of the new Matrix last year and using the current Prius (priced around $20K later this year) and the current Matrix (the closest model in size) as the basis for comparison.
People will make their choices.....
The question is, if the Prius II costs $20K and the Prius III costs $25K while making only 8% better gas mileage and being a half second quicker to 60 mph, which will people choose, ESPECIALLY in this down economy? I'm thinking most will choose the current/old Prius, not the new one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
drop the touch screen and use a manual a/c control would save at least a couple grand? I mean yota could've sell it at cost and crush the insight. But price it too low would steal a lot of corolla's sales.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Having people buy a Prius for what image they want to project is nothing different than a millionaire sports star buying a Ferrari for his image, or a family buying a blinged-out SUV for their image.
The difference in those scenarios is that the Prius buyer feels like they are doing something good for someone ELSE, whereas the other two examples are for personal vain or satisfaction, and not to help anyone else.
There is very little possible to 'cheapen' the interior in terms of materials and it wouldn't make sense to begin to use completely new materials. But as anythingbutgm noted this G2 Prius has already paid for itself. It's beyond breakeven so the only costs to build one now are marginal direct costs like steel, plastic, rubber, aluminum and labor...No more marketing and no fixed costs to recoup. This variable-cost-only vehicle might cost as little as $12000 to build and ship so it could be sold as low as $19,995 MSRP and still make money. :surprise:
What they will likely do is sell the current package No 1, which is what is currentlly sold to the fleets. It has no SKS and no backup camera and currently lists for about $22,000 MSRP. But that includes all Fixed Costs and Marketing charges. The new Gen 2.8
It doesn't matter how good the fuel economy is, for me it's too small and too basic.
Many say the same about the Prius too. But this is a huge market in normal times and there are many many strata of buyers looking for excellent fuel economy - but there are some sacrifices that they won't make.
Now if the $20000 buyer wants a little more than a strippie Fit/Yaris/Versa such as a Corolla, Mazda3, Insight II or maybe a larger more powerful Prius G2.8 then there are sales to be captured. Toyota is making sure that Honda doesn't hog all the under $20K buyers wanting excellent fuel economy.
Silver which is roughly similar to this year's Package #4 and which will prolly sell for about $26000.
Gold which is similar to this year's Package #6, plus Heated Seats, XM, Tilt/Tele SW, Adjustable Dr Seat, EV/Eco/Pwr Modes, Sunroof with Solar Panels to power a heat evac unit in summer. Price is likely to be in the $30K-ish range at least
Platinum.. all of the above, except the Sunroof/Solar Panels, plus 17 AW's, LED headlights, Intelligent Parking assist, Lane Keep Assist and Dynamic Laser Cruise Ctrl w/ Pre-collision System. My guess is $33000.
Those are the packages being offered to the initial buyers for pre-orders. When the vehicles begin to hit in large volumes I'm sure that there will be 6-8 packages in total for the wider population.
I've been invited to go to DC on Monday to get a preview of the G3 Prius from the Prius Marketing Team and the Chief Engineer. Updates to follow.
You're right current owners don't need to be sold again. 'Just sign me up.'
You ARE burning less fuel and polluting less than about 99% of the other vehicles on the road.
That is a definable "good."
Prius drivers are not immune from having vain image aspirations.
Defend those self-righteous eco-ambitions to the death.
Your perspective is much much too narrow.
Just like Lamborghini and Ferrari and Hummer owners want "everyone to know" their image of themselves.
Difference: Prius owners are actually doing something worthy of admiration.
People mock those supercars and SUVs too, no reason any other should be immune.
You assume a driver gives up a fuel efficient vehicle to move into a new more fuel efficient vehicle. There are soo many other possibilities that you just haven't considered.
You also assume a Prius and a Denali ( you must know someone who has both ) cancelling each other out. A family is much more likely to have a minivan and a Prius.
There is no 'right or 'wrong' in these decisions. It's only about buying a car to drive. People buy them for all kinds of reasons. Only others wanting to make judgements seem to impute some 'right' or 'wrong' connotation to this action. It's an action done thousands of times a day why is there a right/wrong or good/bad attached to this vehicle.
If some feel that they are doing something good for themselves and society....so what!!!!! It's their money.
If some just like the vehicle....so what!!!!
If some just want to spend less on gas....so what!!!
If some just want to support Toyota and/or new technology....so what!!!
If some just want...............................It's their money.
Yes, it is their money to do with as they choose, and anyone else can comment as they choose. Freedom is a two way street.
...they 'made it'
...they're frugal and sensible
...they aren't concerned with other's opinions
...they're 'tough'
...they're a 'real man'
...they're a feminine woman
...they can blow your doors off
...they're doing something 'right' for the environment
Why does this reason bother you so much? Just ignore it if it does. Itseems like it's like a burr in your saddle where the other reasons don't affect you in the least.
'Prius' and 'Tundra'
Why? They're damn vehicles. Nothing more. Why does it matter what one thinks when one buys a Prius or Mustang or Volvo. It's a damn vehicle that in 15-20 yrs will be worthless.
Toyota's original plan for Prius was for it to be a technology showcase, which is where my remark was directed. And for that matter, they are probably onto something there - some buyers probably bought Prius because they perceived it to be technologically advanced, at least back in '04-'05.
I see from kdh's remarks that they are set to introduce a fair amount of new tech into the Prius III, to keep it up with the times, and that's a good thing. My hope/fear is twofold:
1. that Toyota is aware we are in a recession and is not making a business model around 200K annual sales of the Gen 3, and
2. that Toyota is not pricing Prius right out of the market. After all, it will still be a smallish car, which at $30K is a challenging sale, even given its hybrid powertrain (STILL the highest-rated car for fuel economy on sale in the U.S.) and new tech features.
My fears on both counts (1) and (2) will be compounded tenfold if Toyota sells the Prius II at a price of $20K right next to this new model.
On a sidenote, I think it's funny that people take such offense at the idealistic view those few buyers take that they are making a standout statement on their eco principles by buying a Prius. Sure there are a few buyers like that but you can hardly ascribe that philosophy to all Prius owners everywhere, and so what if those few folks think that? Buying a Mercedes says you are rich, buying a Maserati says you are rich and like to show it, buying a Porsche says you are in your midlife crisis, buying a mondo-SUV says you are a big strong man with lots of outdoor pursuits, I could go on. All these themes are equally laughable.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
FWIW, I was partially baiting our friend larsb. The Prius or its stereotypical driver is no more mockable than many others...but no less as well.
Around here it says you are a 5' 2" blonde soccer Mom with a cell phone permanently attached to your ear. So much for image.
However.. if the economy stays in the pits,...if the economy is so severely damaged that the recovery takes years to bring us back to where we were,....if the currency issue gets worse and worse, ...if the pricing in the high $20's is too much for our diminished budgets, ...if...
I think the G2.8 Prius stripped down will serve a good purpose. It will help catch those that might have stepped up to a $25000 G3 in the past but now cannot afford to do so. I think that it will also capture some new buyers, some. I also think that it will serve the same function as the Corolla to the Camry.
The Corolla guards the rear of the Camry. It allows the Camry to be sold at $22000 MSRP and up. When I started here in the late 90's the new Camry's were being discounted into the $15900 range when things got tough. Now that doesn't happen very much if at all. Never here actually.
Thus too the G2.8 Prius will guard the backside of the G3 Prius.
"I'd love to have a Prius but $26500 is just too much."
"Well, how about one that looks the same, has the same room, still gets 48mpg day after day, is rock solid and dependable....and only costs $19,995?"
Soccer-Moms, Enviro-weenies, Fat old Caddy owners, ghetto dubs, redneck trucks with gun racks in the window all are potential targets of ridicule and mocking.
Or...we could just not mock anyone or anything. They're just damn vehicles.
So yes, I think it's admirable for anyone to buy such an expensive, unfun car to drive for what amounts to small gas savings over your garden variety Honda Civic/Honda Fit (my new car!), Toyota Corolla, Nissan Versa, Hyundai Elantra, Ford Focus etc. But really for all of the environmental concern espoused by Prius owners, I wonder what the environmental cost of lithium ion batter disposal is? Not to mention the owners cost for replacing those bad boys.
I won't knock anyone for buying a Prius, but I'm still not sold on the cost/savings benefit of that car. Plus I really would be depressed walking out to drive that thing every day.
But what if every vehicle under 'midsized' is disqualified from the comparison....my own case for example. I will not drive a small vehicle such as a Corolla or Civic and definitely not a Versa, Yaris or Fit under any circumstance. The 09 Corolla is right at the tipping point in this criterium since it's nearly the same size, power and quietness as the late 90's Camry's.
But in comparing these two so dissimilar vehicles, the Fit Sport and the Prius, you open an entirely new question. In your stated view you are willing to choose a smaller vehicle with less options. Thus would you also consider a larger vehicle with more options...but also more miles? If you are comparing only the economics ( not styling or driving ) then it's also a perfectly valid choice to compare a new Honda Fit Sport with a 2 or 3 y.o. Prius at the same price. Now everything changes. The Prius is a killer deal - just by the numbers.
Lots of options you have to think through.
Pricing is not known and will not be known until April. Preliminary thoughts from Detroit and other sources is that the pricing for the bulk of the volume in sales will not be changed very much from the Gen 2's; i.e. MSRP's from $24000-ish to $30000-ish. The premium, low volume Platinum Edition may be well above $30000.
The exterior looks very much the same..
the tail lights and faux spoiler are sharper;
the colors and shape are very similar, except sleeker ( with a lower cd );
16" and 17" alloys are offered;
the HIDs are gone, replaced by halogens and in the top trim LEDs and halogens;
the rear taillights are LEDs;
a sunroof with a small solar panel array is an option.
Under the hood is where the bulk of the changes are..
there are NO BELTS anywhere;
the 1.8L 2ZR engine is better suited to the size and weight of the vehicle -especially in NADM high-speed highway situations;
the 42 mph cutoff speed on the ICE when decelerating remains;
the 'thermos bottle' is gone replaced by a EGR system to heat up the engine quicker - a gas heat exchanger;
the NiMH battery is smaller;
the Star Safety System is standard on all models
the PSD has a second gearset like the TCH and HH to allow the MG2 to spin faster.
The interior is significantly changed..
tilt and telescoping SW;
adjustable driver's seat, heated seats added to the leather option;
the base models lose the MFD screen in favor of a simpler one on the dash where the driving info is;
the touch and look of the new console is much nicer IMO;
the Navi system is the same Gen 4 now in the Venza - slick;
the back seats and the rear cargo are essentially the same although the head room in back is somewhat better;
active headrest restraints are standard now.
the steering wheel controls are either ultra sensitive or heat sensitive. Either way as your brush your fingers across them the appropriate button on the semi-headsup display come to life. It eliminates the need to look down to see where your fingers are in relation to which button.
The Fuel Economy should be 8-10% better with much improvement on the highway segment especially at 75 and 80 mph.
Plugins are an option for the future but the reality is that there is just not much money to be made from them for some time to come. They will likely be one option among many.
Hybrid technology is just so simple and reliable now that it's next step is to expand to a wider field. The costs are down dramatically, thus the cost savings are able to be 'rolled back into the vehicle' in terms of additional options and safety equipment. The limiting factor for all hybrid vehicle makers as of today is supply of batteries and hybrid components. No more can be made at the moment so until some of the new battery-producing factilities come on stream there's little incentive to expand the technology to other vehicles.
And I'm not be Pious,
But with nearly four dollar gas,
I'm glad I bought a Prius.
Original (poor) poetry by Larsb
P.S. I didn't really buy a Prius. It's just Art, dude.
And I'm not be Pious,
I can't afford La Jolla
I can afford a Sequoia
How do you like mine?
It's not a junker,
But it is a clunker.
Burma Shave.
Violets are blue
I bought myself a Mitsubishi
Won't you buy one too?
steve...might it be time to resurrect the 'Auto Haiku' thread?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You're off-topic btw - gotta be a Toyota rhyme in here.
Plug-in isn't rocket science any more, it is just fairly expensive, and I can appreciate why Toyota is not yet ready to make it a factory option. But the dealer-installed thing makes sense, I think.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Why take any responsibility on such a product, plugin conversion, if there's little or no volume or profit involved. That being said they do want to be a supplier of aftermarket truck accessories!! Why? There are HUGE volumes involved thus HUGE potential profits. Toyota clearly only wants to be an OEM of vehicles - unless there is good potential profit to be made after the sale.
I agree that I don't think that there is much money to be made in aftermarket plugin conversions.
And decided that it just wasn't my style
Test-drove a Scion xA and tC
Convincing the wife on either proved to not be easy
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Ready for the constraints of the haiku style?
Auto Haiku
Times are definitely, officially bad all over when you see THAT happen.
Toyota ACKNOWLEDGED it today
OKYO (AP) - Toyota, the world's largest automaker, sank into the red for the October-December quarter and acknowledged Friday it was heading for its first annual net loss since 1950 because of plunging global sales and the strong yen.
Joining a string of Japanese companies that have slashed forecasts, Toyota Motor Corp. said it expects a net loss of 350 billion yen ($3.85 billion) for the year through March.
That's a stunning reversal from the record 1.72 trillion yen profit the maker of the Prius hybrid and Lexus luxury line had earned the previous fiscal year. In December, the company thought it would eke out a small annual net profit, but the outlook has darkened since then, especially with the dramatic contraction in the U.S. auto market on which Toyota depends so heavily.
For the fiscal third quarter, Toyota racked up a loss of 164.7 billion yen ($1.81 billion), down sharply from the 458.6 billion yen profit it had the same period the previous year, as the global slump squelched sales.
Quarterly sales plunged 28.4 percent to 4.8 trillion yen.
Toyota said the last time it had the equivalent of a net loss was in 1950, when it reported just parent results under different accounting standards than it uses now.
The damage to Toyota's bottom line was particularly pronounced because the company had been on such an aggressive growth track in recent years, but the downturn came extremely suddenly, said Yasuaki Iwamoto, analyst with Okasan Securities Co. in Tokyo.
All of them have carried the big 20" wheels too, I haven't seen any base models.
Well, I can't help them personally. My 2 Camrys are about to be paid off in the next couple of months. They're going strong at 57K and 37K miles and I have no need or intention to replace them.
What is the Platinum Edition ?