I'd rather they spend their energy on a commie war machine. If we have to fight them someday, the U.S. Military is going to call up and ask hey China, can you build us 100,000 tanks, send us 500,000 rifles, and 5 billion rounds of ammo so we have enough to shoot you. :sick:
The reality is that, when the US Army ordered fatigue from China, there was an uproar in the Congress. I doubt real weapon purchase orders would fair any better in appropirations.
As to the "so we have enough to shoot you" part, well, like I said, protectionism has nothing to do with being nice to Indians or Chinese despite occasional crocodilian tears.
I'd rather them starve for a bit, and over throw there cummunist regime and form a democracy. We have people basically starving i this country because the wages are so low. I'm tired of my tax dollars being spent to support people, when our buisness's in this country don't have enough ethics to pay somebody a fair wage because of greed.
can't name a union and company where wages and benefits I'd say are unfair.
That's because, to you any demand made by union is fair, apriori :-) If union demand no more than what is available at fair market price for labor, why would anyone pay union due at all?
Working GM, which is considered by some as the 2nd biggest buisness in the world behind General Electric, one shouldn't ask for a $50-60K a yr. paycheck, have some vacation, retirement and health benefits, is greedy ?
GM is not ranked #2 of world's business by any metric. GM revenue is way behind XOM, and its market cap is not even in the top 100 (is it even in the top 1000??). If you want to go by the number of employees, Indian Railroad is a far bigger employer . . . and 50k Rupia is about the fair wage there ;-) Why is it so hard to understand that fair pay has to be linked to market recognized value creation, not the size of employer . . . even demanding $20k a year for doing nothing is greedy.
Well unregulation like we have now is failing us. So what is the answer brightness ? Unions, have lost their power and the effect has been the cost of living keeps going up faster than peoples wages. We as individuals keep piling on the debt to our credit cards, get longer loans like 60 yr. notes, or interest only to make up the difference. It seems like someday we will see 15 yr. mortgages on cars, perhaps then you finally see what I'm seeing.
Well if the "free market" is the determing factor then McDonalds, needs to start paying its work force $0.30 an hr. since that is what a child probably makes in Chinese Mickey D's. Perhaps we could get Visa's for Chinese, children to come over here make us hamburgers and fries alot cheaper than our minimum wage.
This is the biggest flaw with your "free market" ideology. The standard of living and free market don't go hand and hand in my eyes thus we need more regualtion from the federal government.
Since when has a totalitarian regime been overthrown by economic privation? Totalitarian regimes thrive in abject poverty. They only get overthrown in one of two situaitons:
(1) losing a major war; (2) reforms intended for economic betterment
If you are tired of your tax dollar being spent to support people, you ought to be an advocate of free trade. Free trade is not foreign aid; in fact, it helps reduce foreign aid programs . . . for example, our aid programs to China stopped when that country pulled up its own shoe strings through participation in trade, just like our aid programs to Germany stopped when trade lifed Germany out of war-time destruction and post-war chaos. Protectionism on the other hand is literally using your tax dollars (tarrif is just another name for tax) to suppor politically well-connected people.
brightness, I was talking about our country's citizens. We have social programs because of corporate greed whom doesn't want to pay a livable wage. Housing is a form of domestic free market. Look how unregulated and unrealistic these prices have become. My point in my eyes is proven.
Actually, it's your own ideology that's leading you astray when compared to reality on the ground:
1. McDonalds does not even employ children in China;
2. MCD pays significantly higher than local prevailing wage in China because they want to have motivated workers who would keep their stores clean and tidy. . . they are quite a bit neater than most Chinese restaurants. BTW, MCD price is not cheap by local fast food restaurants standard;
3. There is no law currently preventing MCD from importing Chinese to work in the US . . . there is indeed a special class of visa for importing food service workers . . . which is the reason why we see so many Eastern Europeans and Latin Americans working at the counters of MCD, BK and Dunkin Donuts.
4. The Eastern Europeans and Latin Americans are not being paid $0.30 an hour for the simple reason that they can not find anyone willing to work at that low wage point . . . why? Because the competitors are willing to pay more. AFAIK, there is no minimum wage requirement for those imported workers.
As you can see, solid reality on the ground proves that the paranoia about the world would go to hell in a hand basket if there were no red tapes to baby sit us is quite unfounded.
Well if a worker at McDonalds makes more than a worker building a car, it proves to even more how out of whack a unregulated union free country truely is. That is where we will be within 30 or 40 years if we keep down this current path to destruction. :surprise:
Housing is one of the most regulated market there ever is. Every step of the way, permit is required. That's a major part of the reason why supply takes time to catch up with demand in a rising market . . . The more regulated a housing market is, like San Fran, NYC, Boston, the more volatile the prices are.
Social programs are created because government greed in aggrandizing itself. Every dollar spent on social programs, only 13 cents reach the supposed target recipient; the rest is lost in the bureacratic paper shuffle . . . that 87 cents on every dollar is a huge incentive for every senior bureacrat to expand his/her own department. That's why we see more and more regulations and higher and higher taxes.
Please stop imagining things. Chinese workers at joint-venture automakers make still more money than those working at McDonalds. It's just that most western companies in China, from McDonalds to GM to MSFT, and everthing in between, tend to pay more than the local prevailing wage, for two reasons:
(1) Worker productivity is higher at the western companies;
(2) Nearly half of Chinese workers are still employed by the ultimate "paradise" in unionism: the State-owned enterprises, where nobody can ever be fired unless criminal convictions. Those state-owned enterprises have really low productivity, so the wages are correspondingly low (rather, stagnant). Workers are essentially paid to do nothing all day every day. Their relative wage were actually high once upon a time, but inflation eventually ate away at their real wage levels. Due to the low productivity, wage increases were slow compared to the rapid wage increases at the more productive new companies.
The average wage in China, brightness is $0.60 per hour. They get no overtime of 1 1/2 or 2x there wage, and do work 6-12 hour day work weeks on average. You can bull a bull-crapper brightness. :P
Rocky
P.S. you were the one claiming that Mickey D workers in China get paid a higher wage than other industry's.
Not sure where you are getting the stats, and how out of date that is. Wage level is rising double digit per centages every year in China in recent years, in Yen terms, which itself is rising compared to Dollar. Average wage is almost meaningless in China because the coastal regions enaged in trade with us has a wage level that is nearly an order of maganitude higher than the interior. It's like the old joke about a $200k salary in NYC gives one a living standard comparable to $100k in Cleveland . . . only more dramaticly so.
$0.60 an hour translates to about 4.5RMBY, which would be very very low by coastal China standards . . . lower than retiree's guaranteed pension of RMBY1500/mo in the coastal cities, even at 40hr per week work hour rate . . . so one or more of your numbers are way off or way out of date. One of my production partners is having difficulty finding workers willing to take RMBY15 per hour and 35hr week, and the job does not even require college degree. To put into perspective, the cost of a dinner at the sit-down restaurant there is about RMBY8-10.
I said MCD there pays more than local prevailing wage. That does not mean higher wage than at a genuinely productive auto plant. Sure, there are indeed ancient auto plants that churn out complete crap, where they pretend to make cars and the State pretend to pay them :-) That's about fair ;-)
When did you see the piece? General news articles are not written by people with first-hand expertise. If you care to find out the truth, all it takes is a trip to China yourself. The little personal attack about Mises is quite uncalled for, considering the old man died before China open up to the west and proved yet again how correct he was in predicting reducing government regulations would automaticly bring economic prosperity . . . that would be lifting one fifth of world's population out of abject poverty.
15yr mortgages on normal cars can not happen for the simple reasons that the collateral is nearly worthless after the first half of the period, and the borrower would just walk away from the obligation. Banks would be stupid to make such loans on any car that is not a collectible.
60yr notes make little sense either because at that rate, the property tax will be higher than principal payment for 40 years in most jurisdictions. So why not rent?
In a way, we are paying the piper after half a century of unionism. Some of the job holders should have been transferred to a more productive industry many many years ago if not for union's promise of permanent job security, a promise that always prove to be a mirage for all but a few who got in early on the Ponzi Scam.
There may be a logic to the massive endebtness in some cases, the skewing induced by mortgage interest deduction in the tax code whereby people would be better off paying a mortgage than renting due to sheer regulatory absurdity.
First, I would like to say that by no means do I defend the unscrupulous, leech-like nature of many overpaid corporate execs. That's just another can of worms altogether for another day!
Secondly, I do believe that the UAW does serve a purpose and that it is necessary. However, I do believe that gradually over the course of their existence, they have strong-armed manufacturers into overpaying employees, negatively affecting the bottom line. So, as it is, I am not anti-union but anti-the-way-the-unions-are-currently-run.
1. I was browsing catalog for 27" TV in the early 90's while in college, the price was close to $1000, made in Japan. I bought one five years ago at $400, Japanese brand but unsure where it was made, and today, they sell for around $200, and nobody wants them, being rapidly replaced by LCD's.
2. I wanted a window AC while in college in the early 90's, the price was $400 for a 5000BTU unit made in the US, to expensive for my blood . . . I bought one at $250 in 1999 . . . today, they sell for about $100, occasionally $89.
3. I bought a Chest Freezer in 1997 for $450, thinking it was a great deal . . . today, a unit of similar size imported from China costs about $250.
When did you see the piece? Dateline, or CNN, honestly it's been few months. It was a story about China. They talked in great detail about how it's every young china mans dream to go work in the city, since one can be independent and make enough money to send to their parents. They live in apartments with their co-workers. This particualr textile worker (female) was the focus of the interview and they did a brief life story. They also went into detail about how the Chinese don't care about trademarks or copyrights and are pirates. Maybe this explains the CHIN-E- cars that takes a Mercedes Benz like Fintails and attempt to reverse engineer it. :mad: We both know the Chinese will never beable to duplicate German Engineering due to or lack their of ...........
I'm also sorry about the personal attack about your pseudo- capatalist pal mises.
Again, government regulation isn't a bad thing unless you have commies/dictators like China running it.
Union leaders are sent to the guillotine or jailed. :mad:
China open up to the west and proved yet again how correct he was in predicting reducing government regulations would automaticly bring economic prosperity . . . that would be lifting one fifth of world's population out of abject poverty.
Oh thats great lets fuel them by giving them our money, so they can spend it on military R&D. brightness, if you only knew whats really going on. We have Chinese spy's hired by there government trying to obtain Top Secret military technology and you want to give the poor souls more money to strengthen ? :confuse: How tasteless. :sick: They even have attempted several times to hack into stuff I can't go into detail about. :mad:
The pseudo's look at China as a means to make a buck exploiting the population, china looks at it as a opertunity to rip-off R&D at all levels.
So China, might be yourself and big buisness's friend but they aren't mine and they are definetly not blue-collar workers friend.
I guess the UAW, appears to strong-arm company's. However if you've read the latest news they have allowed GM and Delphi to hire replacement workers out on buy-outs at $19 an hour with ZERO benefits and Delphi is getting away with paying $14 an hr. with ZERO benefits.
Tell me who's strong-arming who now ? I guess you can now stand up and appluad. :sick:
I try to avoid Walmart. We don't have a Costco's anywhere around here. If I was back home I'd shop at Meijer. My brother just applied at Cotsco's today for a job. I've never been in one of their stores due to availability.
I brightness, haven't many price drops across the board and especially when it comes to automobiles. Basic TV's have dropped because they are out-dated. Who wants a tubual color TV anymore ? :confuse: Maybe for the kids, is about it ?
Also who ues window A/C units anymore, please step back into the 21 st century. :P
My new Refridgerator was $1899, but the owner got it back after 3 weeks becauuse the guy didn't like it enough. I baught it for $599 but unfortunatly made in Mexico. Electralux the company of Frgidaire closed the Greenville Mi. plant last yr. and I had a hard time buying it. I defintly wouldn't of baught it brand new and/or if I didn't get 75% off and it being 3 weeks old used.
My point is the free market hasn't yielded much, if any benefits in pricing IMHO. Cars, have more cheap labor foreign parts in them than ever and look at the prices of them.
The new workforce is implemented and I'm willing to bet Rick Wagoner, is going to want to keep the cost levels about where they are at. $19 an hour with GM. $12-14 an hour at Delphi. Both will have Zero, or little in the way of benefits and retirements. I predict it will take 20+ years for the new workers to get what the veterans have now.
So currently Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, are all paying it's new workers alot better than GM.
Toyota, has the "golden package" from a new UAW workers point of view. Sad, but true how the times have changed in just a few months. :sick:
We both know the Chinese will never beable to duplicate German Engineering due to or lack their of ...........
No, I don't know what you think I know. Is there Aryan blood in German cars? None was found in my last two BMW's. Nor would you find any if you ever actually owned one. BTW, BMW obviously doesn't agree with you either as the company itself is making 3 and 5 series cars in China.
I'm also sorry about the personal attack about your pseudo- capatalist pal mises.
What the heck is a "pseudo-capatalist" anyway? What is a "capatlist"? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Why is a pseudo prefix attached to it? Parroting Fintail really doesn't get anyone anywhere, especially his content-free pseudo-intellectual made-up vocabulary. Rather ironic, considering your berating of people having no originality and no respect for copyright.
Oh thats great lets fuel them by giving them our money, so they can spend it on military R&D.
The obvously do not need US Dollar to do their own military R&D. Inducting a country into the dollar system is a simple way of taxing that country . . . because our government is printing plenty of it out of thin air. The reality is that as our government printing more and more of the paper stuff, it's a good thing the rest of the world is willing to ship us real goods to offset that flood of unbacked currency. Otherwise, we'd all be taxed dry through inflation. As for spying, I'd be very surprised if there is a country of any significance that does not spy on the US. . . after all, we have the most advanced technology, don't we? Even our allies spy on us all the time. That's just the name of the game. Commercial trade has little to do with it. Besides, all this nonsense about nefarious China is little more than shadow boxing since you are not exactly for free trade with India either . . . after all, India is the largest Democracy in the world.
they are definetly not blue-collar workers friend.
They certainly are . . . every time a blue-collar worker shops at Walmart, he/she benefits from free trade.
I have been presenting hard facts, you are the one constantly grappling for spins, hear-says, and outright imaginations. What per centage of notes out there are 60-yr notes? Nearly non-existent. Even 40-year is exceedingly rare. Not even sure how and what you are accusing me of I spinning about 60-yr notes. The bit about Mortgage tax deduction? Of course that's reality . . . a big rationale behind a lot of the interest-only ARMS, as it was being promoted by the big lenders on tax advantage.
As for the non-existent 15-yr car mortgage, I'm not even sure where you are coming up with that stuff. Seriously, economic down turn happens, from time to time. That's how bad economic policies and decisions of the past get corrected. There's no reason to be all doom and gloom.
And you accuse me of spinning? Don't you realize your own post prove the value of outsourcing to low-labor cost places like India and China?
India and China are relatively backward in the products they make. Of course you are not going to see any price benefit from importing from India and China for goods categories that they do not make. Tubular TV was mentioned because that's what was available before China and India came on the scene. LCD panels are dropping in price even faster thanks to the rapid pickup in production in China. Window A/C's still outsell all other forms of A/C's, combined, and that's the form of A/C where product cost outweight installation cost. In any case, if you want to look at central A/C units, the price of central compressor has gone down too, dramaticly, . . . enabling blue collar installation workers/shops to charge more for their labor installing the household A/C's with same tonnage without charging more to the consumer.
Part of the reason why cars have not gone down in price as quickly as A/C units have is because India and China are not exporting cars to the US, yet. Even just with Korean and Japanese competition, we are getting much more bang for our car money than just a decade ago, especially after inflation adjustment. Cars today are much more sophisticated than cars of yore; their prices certainly have not kept up pace with inflation . . . that means getting cheaper in real terms.
No, I don't know what you think I know. Is there Aryan blood in German cars? None was found in my last two BMW's. Nor would you find any if you owned one.
I don't know where the Aryan blood comment came from ? I was just stating that the Germans are a little more mentally, culturally, and more importantly educated than the Chinese. I don't see how you could argue with me on that one, since it's a given. It doesn't take innovation, or brains to carbon copy a excellent piece of work like a Mercedes.
None was found in my last two BMW's. Nor would you find any if you owned one.
Well I'd find some if I was to cut my hand.
What the heck is a "pseudo-capatalist" anyway? What is a "capatlist"? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Why is a pseudo prefix attached to it? Parroting Fintail really doesn't get anyone anywhere, especially his content-free pseudo-intellectual made-up vocabulary.
I'll let fintail, answer that one.
Rather ironic, considering your berating of people having no originality and no respect for copyright.
That's like the pot calling the kettle black. You parrot mises every chance you get.
The obvously do not need US Dollar to do their own military R&D. Inducting a country into the dollar system is a simple way of taxing that country . . . because our government is printing plenty of it out of thin air. The reality is that as our government printing more and more of the paper stuff, it's a good thing the rest of the world is willing to ship us real goods to offset that flood of unbacked currency.
ARE you kidding me ? :surprise: What's going to happen if they they dump it and send us into another depression ? This is why the expert investors are buying gold to back themselves from economic devistation of unbacked currency.
Otherwise, we'd all be taxed dry through inflation. As for spying, I'd be very surprised if there is a country of any significance that does not spy on the US. . .
Of course, but they don't take it over the top like the Chinese.
after all, we have the most advanced technology, don't we?
I don't know ? That's a hard one to answer, especially since us common folks don't have all the facts.
Even our allies spy on us all the time. That's just the name of the game. Commercial trade has little to do with it. Besides, all this nonsense about nefarious China is little more than shadow boxing since you are not exactly for free trade with India either . . . after all, India is the largest Democracy in the world.
I don't know much about India, but they aren't very culturally advanced. I'd call them a 2nd world country at best.
They certainly are . . . every time a blue-collar worker shops at Walmart, he/she benefits from free trade.
Oh, wow....you are beginning to make me laugh now. My wife just asked me what I was laughing about. I don't think a consumer benefits from shopping at Walmart. What I've found over the last 10 years that Wal-Mart is actually as expensive and in most cases more expensive than other stores. Look at the quality and craftsmenship of the garbage you buy from them. Take tools for example. The metal is so cheap it feels "fake". This is what happens when your "free market" goes up in flames. Everyone is trying to cut costs so much you can't find a well made product hardly at all anymore at a fair price. They've all been ran out of buisness. The Big 3, and some of its suppliers look to be staring death in the face. The good paid, hard working, educated, union work-force, is all but gone. :sick:
All I can do is pray that my Step-dad and aunt can survive some rough times, to enjoy better times someday.
I have been presenting hard facts, you are the one constantly grappling for spins, hear-says, and outright imaginations.
I guess that depends on who you ask.
What per centage of notes out there are 60-yr notes? Nearly non-existent.
I know a few people that have them. Non-existent is far from the truth. I also know a few people that have interest only notes and think their property value will increase to yield them equity. :confuse:
Even 40-year is exceedingly rare.
Not among my generation, this is a way for them to own a home with these home prices the way they are. I'd figure you would know this info. I guess Mises didn't teach you this data before he passed away. :P :shades: In all fairness brightness, I don't have the hardcore data in front of me, nor do I care. I can only speak from my experience while speaking with some of my co-workers and friends that own McMansions on Middle Class wages via interest only or 60 yr. notes. Between you and me, they are in debt up to their eye-balls. Most also own one or a combination of new Trucks, Cars, Harley's, boats, ski-doo's, etc. :surprise:
The bit about Mortgage tax deduction? Of course that's reality . . . a big rationale behind a lot of the interest-only ARMS, as it was being promoted by the big lenders on tax advantage.
I'm not a real-estate junkie, but having a home note longer than I'll probably live isn't a good thing. :confuse:
As for the non-existent 15-yr car mortgage, I'm not even sure where you are coming up with that stuff.
I was being sarcastic since it seems every few years they keep giving one longer and longer to pay it off. I think 84 or 96 months they are up to now. :confuse: lemko, and I talked a bit about this and we both like to be sarcastic on some people decision making.
Seriously, economic down turn happens, from time to time. That's how bad economic policies and decisions of the past get corrected. There's no reason to be all doom and gloom.
Hopefully in November, and in 2008, we finally get a major correction in a very large White Painted House :P
Right now it's doom and gloom for alot of middle and lower class folks. They work there buts off and their boss keeps taking from them. The answer IMHO, is a few swipes of the pen to correct the "Free Market" but I don't expect that to happen until sometime shortly after November 2008' I hope and god willing. :surprise:
was just stating that the Germans are a little more mentally, culturally, and more importantly educated than the Chinese. I don't see how you could argue with me on that one, since it's a given.
No, it's not a given. The "mentally, culturally" part is little more than elaborating on "Aryan Cultural Superiority," and quite laughable. The "more educated" part is not a given at all.
It doesn't take innovation, or brains to carbon copy a excellent piece of work like a Mercedes.
Nobody is making a carbon copy of Mercedes, except for plants owned by Mercedes itself. What's interesting is that, both BMW and Mercedes actually have plants in China that make cars that are not rip-offs.
That's like the pot calling the kettle black. You parrot mises every chance you get
Like what? Have you ever read Mises to even begin making that assessment? When I cite Mises I give citations. Otherwise, I speak with my own words. Besides, Mises is the Dean of Austrian School of Economics . . . What's Fintail's qualifications and why is he citable?
What's going to happen if they they dump it and send us into another depression ? This is why the expert investors are buying gold to back themselves from economic devistation of unbacked currency.
Hmm, if they dump it, it would be like a massive Fed injection of money into the economy. It would be inflationary, not deflationary . . . not depression at all. Buying gold is not a hedge against depression . . . exactly the opposite: a hedge against inflation. If you are expecting depression, you should dump all your gold now and look forward to picking them back up later at lower prices.
I don't know much about India, but they aren't very culturally advanced.
Sure, unlike the Aryans ;-) Can we all sing Deutches Uber Alles now? Shoot, the fly in the ointment with that blissful ignorance is that the Indians were the original Aryans, the people who came up with the self-identification of "Aryan" . . . and here you call them cultually retarded.
I don't think a consumer benefits from shopping at Walmart.
Sure, you are the omniscient one . . . never mind millions of consumers making the choice of shopping at Walmart . . . presumably they are all stupid ;-)
I know a few people that have them. Non-existent is far from the truth. I also know a few people that have interest only notes and think their property value will increase to yield them equity.
We already know that some of the people around you are not the most financially savvy, or savvy about much of anything else. However, interest-only is not the same thing as 60-year notes, "nearly non-existent" is not the same as "non-existent" What's more interesting is the following link:
So apparently, 60-year is not something that FNM would buy yet, so obviously banks would be rather reluctant to under-write them, if they under-write that at all, since they would not be able to unload the risk.
Not among my generation, this is a way for them to own a home with these home prices the way they are.
You and I are in the same generation, little over half a decade apart in age. There are morons in every generation. That does not mean the rest of us owe them a comfortable living. Those dumb enough to sign up for 40yr loans and option arms as the only way to afford a house just managed to bid each other into pending bankruptcy. Even as you admit, they are in debt over their eyeballs because all the toys that they buy. You can not argue that they life is hard due to free market competition when they have every toy under the sun and managed to bury themselves in a mount of debt . . . even someone making tens of millions can still go bankrupt if they don't know how to manage their money . . . e.g. Mike Tyson.
I hope you can certainly agree that people who have spent themselves into bankruptcy only have themselves to blame . . . none of us owe them a bail-out. A bail-out is what protectionism is . . . and it certainly has adverse effect on the rest of us. In fact, protectionist policies would instantly sink the dollar, causing massive inflation . . . at which point, those eyeballs deep in debt would indeed be bailed out as their debt would be worth much less in real terms, while reducing us savers and retirees like your parents into paupers.
And you accuse me of spinning? Don't you realize your own post prove the value of outsourcing to low-labor cost places like India and China?
The only benefit on some goods is a cheaper price. What suffers is craftsmenship. Price shouldn't be the sole basis of our economy otherwise you'll end up with a buncha crapola. Do you want to own a Chin-E class of a car brightness ? I sure don't. We have a Chin-E vehicles at Pantex, called GIANT. I think they are put togeather using recycled Camel Cigarette tins. It honestly makes me puke our tax dollars were used to buy this junk from a communist country. What happened to our dignitaty ?
India and China are relatively backward in the products they make. Of course you are not going to see any price benefit from importing from India and China for goods categories that they do not make. Tubular TV was mentioned because that's what was available before China and India came on the scene. LCD panels are dropping in price even faster thanks to the rapid pickup in production in China. Window A/C's still outsell all other forms of A/C's, combined, and that's the form of A/C where product cost outweight installation cost. In any case, if you want to look at central A/C units, the price of central compressor has gone down too, dramaticly, . . . enabling blue collar installation workers/shops to charge more for their labor installing the household A/C's with same tonnage without charging more to the consumer.
The price might be cheaper, but at what expense ? The TV factory's use to pay a decent wage, which gave them spendable income to buy a vehicle, and the worker at the domestic assembly plant, could then turn-around and buy a TV, since both jobs provided spendable income. Presently you might have a cheaper product made from China, but the consumer still can't afford it because he is working at the Stop N' Go, instead of having the opertunity to work at the good paying factory.
My economic theory is this in short : If everyone had good jobs like those found in some union shops, and most of the stuff we buy was made here we'd have less people on welfare, living off of the government, we'd also have more tax revenue, as a result of more good jobs in our country. Our country would be great if the jobs returned and help wanted signs were displayed out of most employer windows. Wages would rise to meet the "free employee market" :P The United States, could have a well oiled economic life-cycle like we did in the 50's if we'd change as a nation. Internal competition is the best form of Free Marketing. If Japan wants to sell a car here it is slightly tariffed to even out the 30% currency manipulation. They can avoid that tariff by building it's plant here. If they tariff our vehicles more and/or close their market to us then we have a responsibility to send their company's back home. If they go bankrupt, oh well.
When we opened the doors and allowed big buisness to search for cheaper labor, that was the beginning of the end of our economic greatness. If foreign company's want to build a auto-plant here, that's fine as long as they pay their fair share of taxes and support our way of life. They currently aren't paying their fair shair while making record profits off of us. We have sold our economic greatness down the drain, and the ones to suffer have been our working citizens from all walks of life.
It's not for either you or I to decide for everyone else whether lower price of high craftsmanship is more important. It's for the individual buyer to make that decision, at least in a free society any way.
The problem with your theory is that it's just a lot of hand-waving wishful thinking. "Internal competition" is simply an artificial limitation to the scope of freedom on the market place . . . it's as if "free competition" within New England for growing fruits and veggies but Californian and Floridian imports are not allowed, oh, because their use of Mexican labor or whatever . . . what do you think the result would be? Certainly not more fruits or veggies for New Englanders. New England farmers may become eccstatic, but New England consumers would suffer . . . and a lot of the woods would be reverted back to farmland like it was before the national highway system was built that brought fruits and veggie from California and Florida. Market place serves the function of price discovery, and unhindered exhausted search for all possibilities is really the only way to find what is the most cost-effective way of getting things done.
Business had been free to search for cheaper labor since pretty much the beginning of this country: we imported Chinese labor to build the trans-continental railroad; we imported German and Irish labor to settle the midwest . . . heck the very reason for this country's founding was the fend off undue meddling on business, like the Stamp Tax, Tea Tariff, etc..
We already know that some of the people around you are not the most financially savvy, or savvy about much of anything else.
They are Texans, what else would you expect. :P Sorry rorr. J/K I agree some of my co-workers aren't the most finacially savy pal.
However, interest-only is not the same thing as 60-year notes, "nearly non-existent" is not the same as "non-existent" What's more interesting is the following link:
Okay, I guess I didn't know what they meant, when they said they had a 60 yr. note. They must of meant an equivalent. They were trying to get me to look into one. I'm like NO-WAY JOSE !!!! I'm not leaving my children with debt !!! My inner voice was like I'm not taking finacial advice from a guy who has a Civic an is paying $720 a month for 72 months. :surprise: When it comes to real-estate, and loan options you are speaking way above me.
So apparently, 60-year is not something that FNM would buy yet, so obviously banks would be rather reluctant to under-write them, if they under-write that at all, since they would not be able to unload the risk.
That is true, why take on that kind of risk, right ? I'm surprised banks take on the risks they do on these long-term car notes. It seems to risky to me.
You and I are in the same generation, little over half a decade apart in age. There are morons in every generation. That does not mean the rest of us owe them a comfortable living. Those dumb enough to sign up for 40yr loans and option arms as the only way to afford a house just managed to bid each other into pending bankruptcy. Even as you admit, they are in debt over their eyeballs because all the toys that they buy. You can not argue that they life is hard due to free market competition when they have every toy under the sun and managed to bury themselves in a mount of debt
I agree 100% with ya. I can afford a decent house, but it's hard to compete when the morons are bidding the new home prices so far up there I'll never be able to afford one and not willing to take on that kind of debt. I do like automobiles, and would like to buy a new one if I choose and not be house broke. I'm expecting a real-estate correction someday. I doubt it will happen in my area since the economy keeps growing, and real-easte keeps going up 5-15% each yr. depending on location.
even someone making tens of millions can still go bankrupt if they don't know how to manage their money . . . e.g. Mike Tyson.
That is sad and a perfect example. I'd give my left arm to have $10 million, I could name a few cars I'd own. :shades:
I hope you can certainly agree that people who have spent themselves into bankruptcy only have themselves to blame
Yes sir, we do agree.
none of us owe them a bail-out. A bail-out is what protectionism is
I guess I can't see the connection of being a economic protectionist and a bail-out for a dumb consumer.
and it certainly has adverse effect on the rest of us. In fact, protectionist policies would instantly sink the dollar, causing massive inflation . . . at which point, those eyeballs deep in debt would indeed be bailed out as their debt would be worth much less in real terms, while reducing us savers and retirees like your parents into paupers.
The dollar is sinking, without protectionist policies. However the new bankruptcy laws don't apply to big corporations, like Delphi that hide their money in over- sea's banks and cry foul. I wrote my congressmen to change these laws. I got a right wing reply go figure. :sick:
It's not for either you or I to decide for everyone else whether lower price of high craftsmanship is more important. It's for the individual buyer to make that decision, at least in a free society any way.
Well I'm getting cheated because I don't have a choice of a good made product thus I can decide to gripe at least, right ?
The problem with your theory is that it's just a lot of hand-waving wishful thinking. "Internal competition" is simply an artificial limitation to the scope of freedom on the market place . . . it's as if "free competition" within New England for growing fruits and veggies but Californian and Floridian imports are not allowed, oh, because their use of Mexican labor or whatever . . . what do you think the result would be? Certainly not more fruits or veggies for New Englanders. New England farmers may become eccstatic, but New England consumers would suffer . . . and a lot of the woods would be reverted back to farmland like it was before the national highway system was built that brought fruits and veggie from California and Florida. Market place serves the function of price discovery, and unhindered exhausted search for all possibilities is really the only way to find what is the most cost-effective way of getting things done.
Well like I said it's my take on it. I strongly disagree with the way things are now and demand change. I'm tired of my General Motors, having to ship jobs out of the country to compete brightness. I'm tired of the UAW, having to give up the moon to give it's employer enough slack to compete with the chinese. It's sickening and getting old. :mad:
Business had been free to search for cheaper labor since pretty much the beginning of this country: we imported Chinese labor to build the trans-continental railroad; we imported German and Irish labor to settle the midwest . . . heck the very reason for this country's founding was the fend off undue meddling on business, like the Stamp Tax, Tea Tariff, etc..
That was 200 years ago brightness, when most of america's internal land was yet to be settled.
Buisness back then when compared with buisness today is like comparing apples and oranges to a Buffalo. For god-sakes you must of missed "Little House on the Praire" growing up. :P
The USDollar is sinking because of protectionism policies and the threat of further protectionism policies. Foreigners have been willing to take dollar in exchange for the good that they give us because there had been an implied promise that with dollar they can buy just about anthing under the sun. That changed when our Congress stopped the UAE from buying some port handling facility and the Chinese from buying an oil company. I'm not debating whether either one of them carries real national security concern . . . but the simple fact that the two Congressional interventions came as quite a shocker to the dollar-holding rest of the world that the promisary notes are not redeemable for everything under the sun.
Further threat of protectionism dampens the enthusiasm of foreigners holding dollars even more. Since dollar is not something they can use in their own country, they will have to go through two sets of transactions, buying goods on the international market, then selling back home, to convert dollar into local currency . . . If the US is to impose tariffs, the action will guarantee to invoke retaliatory tariffs by other countries . . . which would very much likely to make foreign holders of dollar pay twice over on those tarrifs as they convern their dollar holdings . . . not to mention the risk of currrency control disallowing dollar outflow or inflow by the US altogehter.
When dollar is worth less, everything goes up in price in the US. When that happens, eventually wage go up. You and I have lived most of our lives in a period of relative price stability, but double digit inflation was common when we were born. $10k was a CEO salary back in 1970, and the price of a single family home was around $20k in some of the most expensive national markets . . . the same house is probably worth close to $1 million today. Obviously, as you can see, someone who took out a mortgage of $20k at 6.5%and bought that house, even if at 60-year terms (it did not exist back then), would have done very very well.
The game was played out between the 6.5% fixed nominal interest and the 12% plus real inflation . . . in other words, the borrower was making 5.5% every year by holding that loan (i.e. doubling in real equity every 12 years or so, per rule of 72). Meanwhile, any saver was getting wiped out by the same inflation at the same 12% a year rate (minus whatever small per centage the bank gave on saving accounts). That's why I said, massive inflation would be a bail out for deep-in-debt borrowers at the expense of creditors and savers. Protectionism would achieve exactly that.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. In the late 1700's, it was the outsourcing of farm products to the Ohio Valley; in the late 1800's, it was the importation of Chinese labor to build the railroads and the German and Irish to settle the midwest; in the late 1900's, it was the outsourcing of manufacturing over seas and importing labor. As you can see, it was just a matter of enlarging the market place in general, giving each participant more and more choices (i.e. freedom).
The USDollar is sinking because of protectionism policies and the threat of further protectionism policies. Foreigners have been willing to take dollar in exchange for the good that they give us because there had been an implied promise that with dollar they can buy just about anthing under the sun. That changed when our Congress stopped the UAE from buying some port handling facility and the Chinese from buying an oil company. I'm not debating whether either one of them carries real national security concern . . . but the simple fact that the two Congressional interventions came as quite a shocker to the dollar-holding rest of the world that the promisary notes are not redeemable for everything under the sun.
Well president Bush, well actually his cronies are still selling off control of infrastructure to foreign country's. They just went from ports to the Military. No biggie, right ?
Further threat of protectionism dampens the enthusiasm of foreigners holding dollars even more. Since dollar is not something they can use in their own country, they will have to go through two sets of transactions, buying goods on the international market, then selling back home, to convert dollar into local currency . . . If the US is to impose tariffs, the action will guarantee to invoke retaliatory tariffs by other countries .
brightness, as smart as you are you act like they are holding the best cards. WE the United States, hold the Royal Flush, not them. We were the only nation, and currently could once again be the only nation that is self supportive. We can make everything we need and the rest of the world would go down the crapper if we didn't trade. They depend on us, not the other way around.
which would very much likely to make foreign holders of dollar pay twice over on those tarrifs as they convern their dollar holdings . . . not to mention the risk of currrency control disallowing dollar outflow or inflow by the US altogehter.
And that's a bad thing. The rest of the world owes us trillions, and we could tell them it's time to pay up or be taken over.
When dollar is worth less, everything goes up in price in the US. When that happens, eventually wage go up. You and I have lived most of our lives in a period of relative price stability, but double digit inflation was common when we were born. $10k was a CEO salary back in 1970, and the price of a single family home was around $20k in some of the most expensive national markets
The 70's were good times for my family. The 80's had some good and bad years for my family. My mom at GE, made $13 something an hour in 1985. Dad I think made $15 or $16 as a job setter, but got laid-off for a small while.
the same house is probably worth close to $1 million today. Obviously, as you can see, someone who took out a mortgage of $20k at 6.5%and bought that house, even if at 60-year terms (it did not exist back then), would have done very very well.
We had a small house and then mom, and dad, baught a new one in the country in a small town at the time. Now it's grown into a city. Both of my parents regret buying a home that today is worth over $200K today. Dad, said he could afford it but back then he said he wasn't willing to spread himself that thin because of being laid-off twice at GM.
The game was played out between the 6.5% fixed nominal interest and the 12% plus real inflation . . . in other words, the borrower was making 5.5% every year by holding that loan (i.e. doubling in real equity every 12 years or so, per rule of 72). Meanwhile, any saver was getting wiped out by the same inflation at the same 12% a year rate (minus whatever small per centage the bank gave on saving accounts). That's why I said, massive inflation would be a bail out for deep-in-debt borrowers at the expense of creditors and savers. Protectionism would achieve exactly that.
Well as a free marketeer, don't you believe in a correction to get things out of whack, back in line with reality ?
You and I being smart enough to not over spend would reap the benefits of a real-estate correction, wouldn't we ? However the downside would be the auto-industry and just about most everything else would have to be corrected to a true market value. It's good for the savy consumer, but not good for the sellers.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. In the late 1700's, it was the outsourcing of farm products to the Ohio Valley; in the late 1800's, it was the importation of Chinese labor to build the railroads and the German and Irish to settle the midwest; in the late 1900's, it was the outsourcing of manufacturing over seas and importing labor. As you can see, it was just a matter of enlarging the market place in general, giving each participant more and more choices (i.e. freedom).
Like I said before pluses and minuses. I believe now we are getting more minuses, than pluses.
Wages, benefits, retirements, are all on the decline, something we haven't faced yet.
No, it's not a given. The "mentally, culturally" part is little more than elaborating on "Aryan Cultural Superiority," and quite laughable. The "more educated" part is not a given at all.
The Germans are far more advanced than the chinese. I find it quite laughable that you are laughing at the obvious.
Nobody is making a carbon copy of Mercedes, except for plants owned by Mercedes itself. What's interesting is that, both BMW and Mercedes actually have plants in China that make cars that are not rip-offs.
I guess you missed the worst car forum a few months back that had carbon copy Chinese Made Mercedes Benz cars with Chinese nameplates on them. it was either Chery or Geely that did the copying. Wow, that took real intelligence to steal somebody's design. :confuse:
Like what? Have you ever read Mises to even begin making that assessment? When I cite Mises I give citations. Otherwise, I speak with my own words. Besides, Mises is the Dean of Austrian School of Economics . . . What's Fintail's qualifications and why is he citable?
I have read some of his work and your like his pet parrot. Sure you don't have to use quotations, because you're a good "double speaker" and can twist what he is saying in your own words. I gotta give you credit for having the skills to do so. Fintail, appears to be very educated. I guess I agree with him alot on topics through-out these forums. I'm not questioning your intelligence by any means, but you're a devout typical business man capitalist, and I'm a protectionist that doesn't like trading with 3rd world country's where the playing field isn't equal. The funny thing is we have common ground that we both want business to succeed. I however care more about the workers thru middle management and you care more about the share-holders and the top dogs running the company.
Hmm, if they dump it, it would be like a massive Fed injection of money into the economy. It would be inflationary, not deflationary . . . not depression at all. Buying gold is not a hedge against depression . . . exactly the opposite: a hedge against inflation. If you are expecting depression, you should dump all your gold now and look forward to picking them back up later at lower prices.
What ??? Mises taught you wrong. :P Gold is the only hedge against a depression. How can you buy gold later if your currency is worthless. :confuse:
Sure, unlike the Aryans Can we all sing Deutches Uber Alles now? Shoot, the fly in the ointment with that blissful ignorance is that the Indians were the original Aryans, the people who came up with the self-identification of "Aryan" . . . and here you call them culturally retarded.
Well at some point it boils down to intelligence assuming all cultures were on this planet at the same time, right ? The Middle Easterners, are still living in the dark ages, compared to the rest of the world. The Chinese and Indians, look like 1st world nations in comparison. I also don't get why you keep bringing up the term Aryan, when I speak about the Germans ? Ne ways I don't think it was the Indians that "invented" the term Aryan. The Aryan man was blonde hair and blue eyes of Nordic decent and the Indians are quite the opposite. :confuse:
Sure, you are the omniscient one . . . never mind millions of consumers making the choice of shopping at Walmart . . . presumably they are all stupid
Yes most of us are retarded for making that choice. I'm guilty of it also. However a monopoly like Wal-mart has ceized way to much control and power, and eliminates its competition by use of its large bank roll. They are also responsible for eliminating millions of manufactoring jobs in this country, but then again we can blame the dumb american consumer. I do know one thing and that Uncle Sam, is rolling in his grave.
> If we have to fight them someday, the U.S. Military is going to call up and ask hey China, can you build us 100,000 tanks
Now Rocky, it won't be that bad. They don't have to call China, they can just call Willy's Walmart chain; they contact the factories they have over in China.
Gone are the days when high school drop outs would pull in 100K a year working on a car assembly line screwing in one bolt over and over again.
The consumer for years paid way too much and had to live with very shoddy workmanship for too long. GM and the rest of the American car monopoly both management and labor union are on a sinking boat and like the rats they are, are jumping off very rapidly.
If you socilaists are expecting Hillary to bail you out - you can forget it. She will sell you out, after you voted for her, faster than did Bill did!
True, but a person has to remember that those are special, extinuating circumstances because of GM's current difficulties. It's one of those "cut off the hand to save the body" type of things. While I can't predict the future, I would imagine that once GM gets back on its feet and out of the red (and I'm fairly confident it will...Ford is another story), they will renegotiate wages to a more appropriate level.
Gone are the days when high school drop outs would pull in 100K a year working on a car assembly line screwing in one bolt over and over again.
I never knew anyone on the GM assembly line that didn't have a high school diploma. It was a requirement when my father hired in.
The consumer for years paid way too much and had to live with very shoddy workmanship for too long.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, how and why is this the UAW workers fault. You should be blaming the engineers. Look at the quality of the vehicles like the Buick Lucerne, when GM, is committed to building good vehicles. You can give credit to the engineers for the Lucerne, being a good vehicle. The UAW, workers only just build the product with the machinery and materials given to them.
GM and the rest of the American car monopoly both management and labor union are on a sinking boat and like the rats they are, are jumping off very rapidly.
Well I agree that Ford and Chrysler are sinking, but quite the opposite is happening for GM, right now.
If you socilaists are expecting Hillary to bail you out - you can forget it. She will sell you out, after you voted for her, faster than did Bill did!
I'm hoping former Senator John Edwards to bail us out in 2008. Hillary, says she isn't running. Bill, was helluva alot better president than we have now from a working mans perspective. At least Bill, had a higher IQ than a 81. :P
True, but a person has to remember that those are special, extinuating circumstances because of GM's current difficulties. It's one of those "cut off the hand to save the body" type of things. While I can't predict the future, I would imagine that once GM gets back on its feet and out of the red (and I'm fairly confident it will...Ford is another story), they will renegotiate wages to a more appropriate level.
We will see what type of wage and benefits the new workers get. I would be shocked if they are as good as Toyota's.
Comments
Rocky
Self-interest is one of the fundamental reasons why regulations inevitably fail . . . that and the ever-changing reality on the ground.
Rocky
As to the "so we have enough to shoot you" part, well, like I said, protectionism has nothing to do with being nice to Indians or Chinese despite occasional crocodilian tears.
Rocky
Rocky
That's because, to you any demand made by union is fair, apriori :-) If union demand no more than what is available at fair market price for labor, why would anyone pay union due at all?
Working GM, which is considered by some as the 2nd biggest buisness in the world behind General Electric, one shouldn't ask for a $50-60K a yr. paycheck, have some vacation, retirement and health benefits, is greedy ?
GM is not ranked #2 of world's business by any metric. GM revenue is way behind XOM, and its market cap is not even in the top 100 (is it even in the top 1000??). If you want to go by the number of employees, Indian Railroad is a far bigger employer . . . and 50k Rupia is about the fair wage there ;-) Why is it so hard to understand that fair pay has to be linked to market recognized value creation, not the size of employer . . . even demanding $20k a year for doing nothing is greedy.
Rocky
This is the biggest flaw with your "free market" ideology. The standard of living and free market don't go hand and hand in my eyes thus we need more regualtion from the federal government.
Rocky
(1) losing a major war;
(2) reforms intended for economic betterment
If you are tired of your tax dollar being spent to support people, you ought to be an advocate of free trade. Free trade is not foreign aid; in fact, it helps reduce foreign aid programs . . . for example, our aid programs to China stopped when that country pulled up its own shoe strings through participation in trade, just like our aid programs to Germany stopped when trade lifed Germany out of war-time destruction and post-war chaos. Protectionism on the other hand is literally using your tax dollars (tarrif is just another name for tax) to suppor politically well-connected people.
Rocky
1. McDonalds does not even employ children in China;
2. MCD pays significantly higher than local prevailing wage in China because they want to have motivated workers who would keep their stores clean and tidy. . . they are quite a bit neater than most Chinese restaurants. BTW, MCD price is not cheap by local fast food restaurants standard;
3. There is no law currently preventing MCD from importing Chinese to work in the US . . . there is indeed a special class of visa for importing food service workers . . . which is the reason why we see so many Eastern Europeans and Latin Americans working at the counters of MCD, BK and Dunkin Donuts.
4. The Eastern Europeans and Latin Americans are not being paid $0.30 an hour for the simple reason that they can not find anyone willing to work at that low wage point . . . why? Because the competitors are willing to pay more. AFAIK, there is no minimum wage requirement for those imported workers.
As you can see, solid reality on the ground proves that the paranoia about the world would go to hell in a hand basket if there were no red tapes to baby sit us is quite unfounded.
Rocky
Social programs are created because government greed in aggrandizing itself. Every dollar spent on social programs, only 13 cents reach the supposed target recipient; the rest is lost in the bureacratic paper shuffle . . . that 87 cents on every dollar is a huge incentive for every senior bureacrat to expand his/her own department. That's why we see more and more regulations and higher and higher taxes.
(1) Worker productivity is higher at the western companies;
(2) Nearly half of Chinese workers are still employed by the ultimate "paradise" in unionism: the State-owned enterprises, where nobody can ever be fired unless criminal convictions. Those state-owned enterprises have really low productivity, so the wages are correspondingly low (rather, stagnant). Workers are essentially paid to do nothing all day every day. Their relative wage were actually high once upon a time, but inflation eventually ate away at their real wage levels. Due to the low productivity, wage increases were slow compared to the rapid wage increases at the more productive new companies.
Rocky
P.S. you were the one claiming that Mickey D workers in China get paid a higher wage than other industry's.
$0.60 an hour translates to about 4.5RMBY, which would be very very low by coastal China standards . . . lower than retiree's guaranteed pension of RMBY1500/mo in the coastal cities, even at 40hr per week work hour rate . . . so one or more of your numbers are way off or way out of date. One of my production partners is having difficulty finding workers willing to take RMBY15 per hour and 35hr week, and the job does not even require college degree. To put into perspective, the cost of a dinner at the sit-down restaurant there is about RMBY8-10.
I said MCD there pays more than local prevailing wage. That does not mean higher wage than at a genuinely productive auto plant. Sure, there are indeed ancient auto plants that churn out complete crap, where they pretend to make cars and the State pretend to pay them :-) That's about fair ;-)
Rocky
60yr notes make little sense either because at that rate, the property tax will be higher than principal payment for 40 years in most jurisdictions. So why not rent?
In a way, we are paying the piper after half a century of unionism. Some of the job holders should have been transferred to a more productive industry many many years ago if not for union's promise of permanent job security, a promise that always prove to be a mirage for all but a few who got in early on the Ponzi Scam.
There may be a logic to the massive endebtness in some cases, the skewing induced by mortgage interest deduction in the tax code whereby people would be better off paying a mortgage than renting due to sheer regulatory absurdity.
Secondly, I do believe that the UAW does serve a purpose and that it is necessary. However, I do believe that gradually over the course of their existence, they have strong-armed manufacturers into overpaying employees, negatively affecting the bottom line. So, as it is, I am not anti-union but anti-the-way-the-unions-are-currently-run.
How about some solid examples:
1. I was browsing catalog for 27" TV in the early 90's while in college, the price was close to $1000, made in Japan. I bought one five years ago at $400, Japanese brand but unsure where it was made, and today, they sell for around $200, and nobody wants them, being rapidly replaced by LCD's.
2. I wanted a window AC while in college in the early 90's, the price was $400 for a 5000BTU unit made in the US, to expensive for my blood . . . I bought one at $250 in 1999 . . . today, they sell for about $100, occasionally $89.
3. I bought a Chest Freezer in 1997 for $450, thinking it was a great deal . . . today, a unit of similar size imported from China costs about $250.
I'm also sorry about the personal attack about your pseudo- capatalist pal mises.
Again, government regulation isn't a bad thing unless you have commies/dictators like China running it.
Union leaders are sent to the guillotine or jailed. :mad:
China open up to the west and proved yet again how correct he was in predicting reducing government regulations would automaticly bring economic prosperity . . . that would be lifting one fifth of world's population out of abject poverty.
Oh thats great lets fuel them by giving them our money, so they can spend it on military R&D. brightness, if you only knew whats really going on. We have Chinese spy's hired by there government trying to obtain Top Secret military technology and you want to give the poor souls more money to strengthen ? :confuse: How tasteless. :sick: They even have attempted several times to hack into stuff I can't go into detail about. :mad:
The pseudo's look at China as a means to make a buck exploiting the population, china looks at it as a opertunity to rip-off R&D at all levels.
So China, might be yourself and big buisness's friend but they aren't mine and they are definetly not blue-collar workers friend.
Rocky
Tell me who's strong-arming who now ? I guess you can now stand up and appluad. :sick:
Rocky
Our country is doomed
Rocky
I brightness, haven't many price drops across the board and especially when it comes to automobiles. Basic TV's have dropped because they are out-dated. Who wants a tubual color TV anymore ? :confuse: Maybe for the kids, is about it ?
Also who ues window A/C units anymore, please step back into the 21 st century. :P
My new Refridgerator was $1899, but the owner got it back after 3 weeks becauuse the guy didn't like it enough. I baught it for $599 but unfortunatly made in Mexico. Electralux the company of Frgidaire closed the Greenville Mi. plant last yr. and I had a hard time buying it. I defintly wouldn't of baught it brand new and/or
if I didn't get 75% off and it being 3 weeks old used.
My point is the free market hasn't yielded much, if any benefits in pricing IMHO. Cars, have more cheap labor
foreign parts in them than ever and look at the prices of them.
I rest my case....
Rocky
So currently Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, are all paying it's new workers alot better than GM.
Toyota, has the "golden package" from a new UAW workers point of view. Sad, but true how the times have changed in just a few months. :sick:
Rocky
No, I don't know what you think I know. Is there Aryan blood in German cars? None was found in my last two BMW's. Nor would you find any if you ever actually owned one. BTW, BMW obviously doesn't agree with you either as the company itself is making 3 and 5 series cars in China.
I'm also sorry about the personal attack about your pseudo- capatalist pal mises.
What the heck is a "pseudo-capatalist" anyway? What is a "capatlist"? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Why is a pseudo prefix attached to it? Parroting Fintail really doesn't get anyone anywhere, especially his content-free pseudo-intellectual made-up vocabulary. Rather ironic, considering your berating of people having no originality and no respect for copyright.
Oh thats great lets fuel them by giving them our money, so they can spend it on military R&D.
The obvously do not need US Dollar to do their own military R&D. Inducting a country into the dollar system is a simple way of taxing that country . . . because our government is printing plenty of it out of thin air. The reality is that as our government printing more and more of the paper stuff, it's a good thing the rest of the world is willing to ship us real goods to offset that flood of unbacked currency. Otherwise, we'd all be taxed dry through inflation. As for spying, I'd be very surprised if there is a country of any significance that does not spy on the US. . . after all, we have the most advanced technology, don't we? Even our allies spy on us all the time. That's just the name of the game. Commercial trade has little to do with it. Besides, all this nonsense about nefarious China is little more than shadow boxing since you are not exactly for free trade with India either . . . after all, India is the largest Democracy in the world.
they are definetly not blue-collar workers friend.
They certainly are . . . every time a blue-collar worker shops at Walmart, he/she benefits from free trade.
As for the non-existent 15-yr car mortgage, I'm not even sure where you are coming up with that stuff. Seriously, economic down turn happens, from time to time. That's how bad economic policies and decisions of the past get corrected. There's no reason to be all doom and gloom.
India and China are relatively backward in the products they make. Of course you are not going to see any price benefit from importing from India and China for goods categories that they do not make. Tubular TV was mentioned because that's what was available before China and India came on the scene. LCD panels are dropping in price even faster thanks to the rapid pickup in production in China. Window A/C's still outsell all other forms of A/C's, combined, and that's the form of A/C where product cost outweight installation cost. In any case, if you want to look at central A/C units, the price of central compressor has gone down too, dramaticly, . . . enabling blue collar installation workers/shops to charge more for their labor installing the household A/C's with same tonnage without charging more to the consumer.
Part of the reason why cars have not gone down in price as quickly as A/C units have is because India and China are not exporting cars to the US, yet. Even just with Korean and Japanese competition, we are getting much more bang for our car money than just a decade ago, especially after inflation adjustment. Cars today are much more sophisticated than cars of yore; their prices certainly have not kept up pace with inflation . . . that means getting cheaper in real terms.
I don't know where the Aryan blood comment came from ?
I was just stating that the Germans are a little more mentally, culturally, and more importantly educated than the Chinese. I don't see how you could argue with me on that one, since it's a given. It doesn't take innovation, or brains to carbon copy a excellent piece of work like a Mercedes.
None was found in my last two BMW's. Nor would you find any if you owned one.
Well I'd find some if I was to cut my hand.
What the heck is a "pseudo-capatalist" anyway? What is a "capatlist"? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Why is a pseudo prefix attached to it? Parroting Fintail really doesn't get anyone anywhere, especially his content-free pseudo-intellectual made-up vocabulary.
I'll let fintail, answer that one.
Rather ironic, considering your berating of people having no originality and no respect for copyright.
That's like the pot calling the kettle black. You parrot mises every chance you get.
The obvously do not need US Dollar to do their own military R&D. Inducting a country into the dollar system is a simple way of taxing that country . . . because our government is printing plenty of it out of thin air. The reality is that as our government printing more and more of the paper stuff, it's a good thing the rest of the world is willing to ship us real goods to offset that flood of unbacked currency.
ARE you kidding me ? :surprise: What's going to happen if they they dump it and send us into another depression ?
This is why the expert investors are buying gold to back themselves from economic devistation of unbacked currency.
Otherwise, we'd all be taxed dry through inflation. As for spying, I'd be very surprised if there is a country of any significance that does not spy on the US. . .
Of course, but they don't take it over the top like the Chinese.
after all, we have the most advanced technology, don't we?
I don't know ? That's a hard one to answer, especially since us common folks don't have all the facts.
Even our allies spy on us all the time. That's just the name of the game. Commercial trade has little to do with it. Besides, all this nonsense about nefarious China is little more than shadow boxing since you are not exactly for free trade with India either . . . after all, India is the largest Democracy in the world.
I don't know much about India, but they aren't very culturally advanced. I'd call them a 2nd world country at best.
They certainly are . . . every time a blue-collar worker shops at Walmart, he/she benefits from free trade.
Oh, wow....you are beginning to make me laugh now. My wife just asked me what I was laughing about. I don't think a consumer benefits from shopping at Walmart. What I've found over the last 10 years that Wal-Mart is actually as expensive and in most cases more expensive than other stores. Look at the quality and craftsmenship of the garbage you buy from them. Take tools for example. The metal is so cheap it feels "fake". This is what happens when your "free market" goes up in flames. Everyone is trying to cut costs so much you can't find a well made product hardly at all anymore at a fair price. They've all been ran out of buisness. The Big 3, and some of its suppliers look to be staring death in the face. The good paid, hard working, educated, union work-force, is all but gone. :sick:
All I can do is pray that my Step-dad and aunt can survive some rough times, to enjoy better times someday.
Rocky
I guess that depends on who you ask.
What per centage of notes out there are 60-yr notes? Nearly non-existent.
I know a few people that have them. Non-existent is far from the truth. I also know a few people that have interest only notes and think their property value will increase to yield them equity. :confuse:
Even 40-year is exceedingly rare.
Not among my generation, this is a way for them to own a home with these home prices the way they are. I'd figure you would know this info. I guess Mises didn't teach you this data before he passed away. :P :shades: In all fairness brightness, I don't have the hardcore data in front of me, nor do I care. I can only speak from my experience while speaking with some of my co-workers and friends that own McMansions on Middle Class wages via interest only or 60 yr. notes. Between you and me, they are in debt up to their eye-balls. Most also own one or a combination of new Trucks, Cars, Harley's, boats, ski-doo's, etc. :surprise:
The bit about Mortgage tax deduction? Of course that's reality . . . a big rationale behind a lot of the interest-only ARMS, as it was being promoted by the big lenders on tax advantage.
I'm not a real-estate junkie, but having a home note longer than I'll probably live isn't a good thing. :confuse:
As for the non-existent 15-yr car mortgage, I'm not even sure where you are coming up with that stuff.
I was being sarcastic since it seems every few years they keep giving one longer and longer to pay it off. I think 84 or 96 months they are up to now. :confuse:
lemko, and I talked a bit about this and we both like to be sarcastic on some people decision making.
Seriously, economic down turn happens, from time to time. That's how bad economic policies and decisions of the past get corrected. There's no reason to be all doom and gloom.
Hopefully in November, and in 2008, we finally get a major correction in a very large White Painted House :P
Right now it's doom and gloom for alot of middle and lower class folks. They work there buts off and their boss keeps taking from them. The answer IMHO, is a few swipes of the pen to correct the "Free Market" but I don't expect that to happen until sometime shortly after November 2008'
I hope and god willing. :surprise:
Rocky
No, it's not a given. The "mentally, culturally" part is little more than elaborating on "Aryan Cultural Superiority," and quite laughable. The "more educated" part is not a given at all.
It doesn't take innovation, or brains to carbon copy a excellent piece of work like a Mercedes.
Nobody is making a carbon copy of Mercedes, except for plants owned by Mercedes itself. What's interesting is that, both BMW and Mercedes actually have plants in China that make cars that are not rip-offs.
That's like the pot calling the kettle black. You parrot mises every chance you get
Like what? Have you ever read Mises to even begin making that assessment? When I cite Mises I give citations. Otherwise, I speak with my own words. Besides, Mises is the Dean of Austrian School of Economics . . . What's Fintail's qualifications and why is he citable?
What's going to happen if they they dump it and send us into another depression ? This is why the expert investors are buying gold to back themselves from economic devistation of unbacked currency.
Hmm, if they dump it, it would be like a massive Fed injection of money into the economy. It would be inflationary, not deflationary . . . not depression at all. Buying gold is not a hedge against depression . . . exactly the opposite: a hedge against inflation. If you are expecting depression, you should dump all your gold now and look forward to picking them back up later at lower prices.
I don't know much about India, but they aren't very culturally advanced.
Sure, unlike the Aryans ;-) Can we all sing Deutches Uber Alles now? Shoot, the fly in the ointment with that blissful ignorance is that the Indians were the original Aryans, the people who came up with the self-identification of "Aryan" . . . and here you call them cultually retarded.
I don't think a consumer benefits from shopping at Walmart.
Sure, you are the omniscient one . . . never mind millions of consumers making the choice of shopping at Walmart . . . presumably they are all stupid ;-)
We already know that some of the people around you are not the most financially savvy, or savvy about much of anything else. However, interest-only is not the same thing as 60-year notes, "nearly non-existent" is not the same as "non-existent" What's more interesting is the following link:
http://60yearmortgage.com/
So apparently, 60-year is not something that FNM would buy yet, so obviously banks would be rather reluctant to under-write them, if they under-write that at all, since they would not be able to unload the risk.
Not among my generation, this is a way for them to own a home with these home prices the way they are.
You and I are in the same generation, little over half a decade apart in age. There are morons in every generation. That does not mean the rest of us owe them a comfortable living. Those dumb enough to sign up for 40yr loans and option arms as the only way to afford a house just managed to bid each other into pending bankruptcy. Even as you admit, they are in debt over their eyeballs because all the toys that they buy. You can not argue that they life is hard due to free market competition when they have every toy under the sun and managed to bury themselves in a mount of debt . . . even someone making tens of millions can still go bankrupt if they don't know how to manage their money . . . e.g. Mike Tyson.
I hope you can certainly agree that people who have spent themselves into bankruptcy only have themselves to blame . . . none of us owe them a bail-out. A bail-out is what protectionism is . . . and it certainly has adverse effect on the rest of us. In fact, protectionist policies would instantly sink the dollar, causing massive inflation . . . at which point, those eyeballs deep in debt would indeed be bailed out as their debt would be worth much less in real terms, while reducing us savers and retirees like your parents into paupers.
The only benefit on some goods is a cheaper price. What suffers is craftsmenship. Price shouldn't be the sole basis of our economy otherwise you'll end up with a buncha crapola. Do you want to own a Chin-E class of a car brightness ? I sure don't. We have a Chin-E vehicles at Pantex, called GIANT. I think they are put togeather using recycled Camel Cigarette tins. It honestly makes me puke our tax dollars were used to buy this junk from a communist country. What happened to our dignitaty ?
India and China are relatively backward in the products they make. Of course you are not going to see any price benefit from importing from India and China for goods categories that they do not make. Tubular TV was mentioned because that's what was available before China and India came on the scene. LCD panels are dropping in price even faster thanks to the rapid pickup in production in China. Window A/C's still outsell all other forms of A/C's, combined, and that's the form of A/C where product cost outweight installation cost. In any case, if you want to look at central A/C units, the price of central compressor has gone down too, dramaticly, . . . enabling blue collar installation workers/shops to charge more for their labor installing the household A/C's with same tonnage without charging more to the consumer.
The price might be cheaper, but at what expense ? The TV factory's use to pay a decent wage, which gave them spendable income to buy a vehicle, and the worker at the domestic assembly plant, could then turn-around and buy a TV, since both jobs provided spendable income. Presently you might have a cheaper product made from China, but the consumer still can't afford it because he is working at the Stop N' Go, instead of having the opertunity to work at the good paying factory.
My economic theory is this in short : If everyone had good jobs like those found in some union shops, and most of the stuff we buy was made here we'd have less people on welfare, living off of the government, we'd also have more tax revenue, as a result of more good jobs in our country.
Our country would be great if the jobs returned and help wanted signs were displayed out of most employer windows.
Wages would rise to meet the "free employee market" :P
The United States, could have a well oiled economic life-cycle like we did in the 50's if we'd change as a nation. Internal competition is the best form of Free Marketing. If Japan wants to sell a car here it is slightly tariffed to even out the 30% currency manipulation. They can avoid that tariff by building it's plant here. If they tariff our vehicles more and/or close their market to us then we have a responsibility to send their company's back home. If they go bankrupt, oh well.
When we opened the doors and allowed big buisness to search for cheaper labor, that was the beginning of the end of our economic greatness. If foreign company's want to build a auto-plant here, that's fine as long as they pay their fair share of taxes and support our way of life. They currently aren't paying their fair shair while making record profits off of us. We have sold our economic greatness down the drain, and the ones to suffer have been our working citizens from all walks of life.
Rocky
The problem with your theory is that it's just a lot of hand-waving wishful thinking. "Internal competition" is simply an artificial limitation to the scope of freedom on the market place . . . it's as if "free competition" within New England for growing fruits and veggies but Californian and Floridian imports are not allowed, oh, because their use of Mexican labor or whatever . . . what do you think the result would be? Certainly not more fruits or veggies for New Englanders. New England farmers may become eccstatic, but New England consumers would suffer . . . and a lot of the woods would be reverted back to farmland like it was before the national highway system was built that brought fruits and veggie from California and Florida. Market place serves the function of price discovery, and unhindered exhausted search for all possibilities is really the only way to find what is the most cost-effective way of getting things done.
Business had been free to search for cheaper labor since pretty much the beginning of this country: we imported Chinese labor to build the trans-continental railroad; we imported German and Irish labor to settle the midwest . . . heck the very reason for this country's founding was the fend off undue meddling on business, like the Stamp Tax, Tea Tariff, etc..
They are Texans, what else would you expect. :P Sorry rorr.
However, interest-only is not the same thing as 60-year notes, "nearly non-existent" is not the same as "non-existent" What's more interesting is the following link:
Okay, I guess I didn't know what they meant, when they said they had a 60 yr. note. They must of meant an equivalent. They were trying to get me to look into one. I'm like NO-WAY JOSE !!!!
My inner voice was like I'm not taking finacial advice from a guy who has a Civic an is paying $720 a month for 72 months. :surprise: When it comes to real-estate, and loan options you are speaking way above me.
So apparently, 60-year is not something that FNM would buy yet, so obviously banks would be rather reluctant to under-write them, if they under-write that at all, since they would not be able to unload the risk.
That is true, why take on that kind of risk, right ? I'm surprised banks take on the risks they do on these long-term car notes. It seems to risky to me.
You and I are in the same generation, little over half a decade apart in age. There are morons in every generation. That does not mean the rest of us owe them a comfortable living. Those dumb enough to sign up for 40yr loans and option arms as the only way to afford a house just managed to bid each other into pending bankruptcy. Even as you admit, they are in debt over their eyeballs because all the toys that they buy. You can not argue that they life is hard due to free market competition when they have every toy under the sun and managed to bury themselves in a mount of debt
I agree 100% with ya. I can afford a decent house, but it's hard to compete when the morons are bidding the new home prices so far up there I'll never be able to afford one and not willing to take on that kind of debt. I do like automobiles, and would like to buy a new one if I choose and not be house broke. I'm expecting a real-estate correction someday. I doubt it will happen in my area since the economy keeps growing, and real-easte keeps going up 5-15% each yr. depending on location.
even someone making tens of millions can still go bankrupt if they don't know how to manage their money . . . e.g. Mike Tyson.
That is sad and a perfect example. I'd give my left arm to have $10 million, I could name a few cars I'd own. :shades:
I hope you can certainly agree that people who have spent themselves into bankruptcy only have themselves to blame
Yes sir, we do agree.
none of us owe them a bail-out. A bail-out is what protectionism is
I guess I can't see the connection of being a economic protectionist and a bail-out for a dumb consumer.
and it certainly has adverse effect on the rest of us. In fact, protectionist policies would instantly sink the dollar, causing massive inflation . . . at which point, those eyeballs deep in debt would indeed be bailed out as their debt would be worth much less in real terms, while reducing us savers and retirees like your parents into paupers.
The dollar is sinking, without protectionist policies. However the new bankruptcy laws don't apply to big corporations, like Delphi that hide their money in over- sea's banks and cry foul. I wrote my congressmen to change these laws. I got a right wing reply go figure. :sick:
Rocky
Well I'm getting cheated because I don't have a choice of a good made product thus I can decide to gripe at least, right ?
The problem with your theory is that it's just a lot of hand-waving wishful thinking. "Internal competition" is simply an artificial limitation to the scope of freedom on the market place . . . it's as if "free competition" within New England for growing fruits and veggies but Californian and Floridian imports are not allowed, oh, because their use of Mexican labor or whatever . . . what do you think the result would be? Certainly not more fruits or veggies for New Englanders. New England farmers may become eccstatic, but New England consumers would suffer . . . and a lot of the woods would be reverted back to farmland like it was before the national highway system was built that brought fruits and veggie from California and Florida. Market place serves the function of price discovery, and unhindered exhausted search for all possibilities is really the only way to find what is the most cost-effective way of getting things done.
Well like I said it's my take on it. I strongly disagree with the way things are now and demand change. I'm tired of my General Motors, having to ship jobs out of the country to compete brightness. I'm tired of the UAW, having to give up the moon to give it's employer enough slack to compete with the chinese. It's sickening and getting old. :mad:
Business had been free to search for cheaper labor since pretty much the beginning of this country: we imported Chinese labor to build the trans-continental railroad; we imported German and Irish labor to settle the midwest . . . heck the very reason for this country's founding was the fend off undue meddling on business, like the Stamp Tax, Tea Tariff, etc..
That was 200 years ago brightness, when most of america's internal land was yet to be settled.
Buisness back then when compared with buisness today is like comparing apples and oranges to a Buffalo.
Rocky
The USDollar is sinking because of protectionism policies and the threat of further protectionism policies. Foreigners have been willing to take dollar in exchange for the good that they give us because there had been an implied promise that with dollar they can buy just about anthing under the sun. That changed when our Congress stopped the UAE from buying some port handling facility and the Chinese from buying an oil company. I'm not debating whether either one of them carries real national security concern . . . but the simple fact that the two Congressional interventions came as quite a shocker to the dollar-holding rest of the world that the promisary notes are not redeemable for everything under the sun.
Further threat of protectionism dampens the enthusiasm of foreigners holding dollars even more. Since dollar is not something they can use in their own country, they will have to go through two sets of transactions, buying goods on the international market, then selling back home, to convert dollar into local currency . . . If the US is to impose tariffs, the action will guarantee to invoke retaliatory tariffs by other countries . . . which would very much likely to make foreign holders of dollar pay twice over on those tarrifs as they convern their dollar holdings . . . not to mention the risk of currrency control disallowing dollar outflow or inflow by the US altogehter.
When dollar is worth less, everything goes up in price in the US. When that happens, eventually wage go up. You and I have lived most of our lives in a period of relative price stability, but double digit inflation was common when we were born. $10k was a CEO salary back in 1970, and the price of a single family home was around $20k in some of the most expensive national markets . . . the same house is probably worth close to $1 million today. Obviously, as you can see, someone who took out a mortgage of $20k at 6.5%and bought that house, even if at 60-year terms (it did not exist back then), would have done very very well.
The game was played out between the 6.5% fixed nominal interest and the 12% plus real inflation . . . in other words, the borrower was making 5.5% every year by holding that loan (i.e. doubling in real equity every 12 years or so, per rule of 72). Meanwhile, any saver was getting wiped out by the same inflation at the same 12% a year rate (minus whatever small per centage the bank gave on saving accounts). That's why I said, massive inflation would be a bail out for deep-in-debt borrowers at the expense of creditors and savers. Protectionism would achieve exactly that.
Yeah it's nice when we can agree.
The USDollar is sinking because of protectionism policies and the threat of further protectionism policies. Foreigners have been willing to take dollar in exchange for the good that they give us because there had been an implied promise that with dollar they can buy just about anthing under the sun. That changed when our Congress stopped the UAE from buying some port handling facility and the Chinese from buying an oil company. I'm not debating whether either one of them carries real national security concern . . . but the simple fact that the two Congressional interventions came as quite a shocker to the dollar-holding rest of the world that the promisary notes are not redeemable for everything under the sun.
Well president Bush, well actually his cronies are still selling off control of infrastructure to foreign country's. They just went from ports to the Military. No biggie, right ?
Further threat of protectionism dampens the enthusiasm of foreigners holding dollars even more. Since dollar is not something they can use in their own country, they will have to go through two sets of transactions, buying goods on the international market, then selling back home, to convert dollar into local currency . . . If the US is to impose tariffs, the action will guarantee to invoke retaliatory tariffs by other countries .
brightness, as smart as you are you act like they are holding the best cards. WE the United States, hold the Royal Flush, not them.
which would very much likely to make foreign holders of dollar pay twice over on those tarrifs as they convern their dollar holdings . . . not to mention the risk of currrency control disallowing dollar outflow or inflow by the US altogehter.
And that's a bad thing. The rest of the world owes us trillions, and we could tell them it's time to pay up or be taken over.
When dollar is worth less, everything goes up in price in the US. When that happens, eventually wage go up. You and I have lived most of our lives in a period of relative price stability, but double digit inflation was common when we were born. $10k was a CEO salary back in 1970, and the price of a single family home was around $20k in some of the most expensive national markets
The 70's were good times for my family. The 80's had some good and bad years for my family. My mom at GE, made $13 something an hour in 1985. Dad I think made $15 or $16 as a job setter, but got laid-off for a small while.
the same house is probably worth close to $1 million today. Obviously, as you can see, someone who took out a mortgage of $20k at 6.5%and bought that house, even if at 60-year terms (it did not exist back then), would have done very very well.
We had a small house and then mom, and dad, baught a new one in the country in a small town at the time. Now it's grown into a city. Both of my parents regret buying a home that today is worth over $200K today. Dad, said he could afford it but back then he said he wasn't willing to spread himself that thin because of being laid-off twice at GM.
The game was played out between the 6.5% fixed nominal interest and the 12% plus real inflation . . . in other words, the borrower was making 5.5% every year by holding that loan (i.e. doubling in real equity every 12 years or so, per rule of 72). Meanwhile, any saver was getting wiped out by the same inflation at the same 12% a year rate (minus whatever small per centage the bank gave on saving accounts). That's why I said, massive inflation would be a bail out for deep-in-debt borrowers at the expense of creditors and savers. Protectionism would achieve exactly that.
Well as a free marketeer, don't you believe in a correction to get things out of whack, back in line with reality ?
You and I being smart enough to not over spend would reap the benefits of a real-estate correction, wouldn't we ?
However the downside would be the auto-industry and just about most everything else would have to be corrected to a true market value. It's good for the savy consumer, but not good for the sellers.
Rocky
Like I said before pluses and minuses. I believe now we are getting more minuses, than pluses.
Wages, benefits, retirements, are all on the decline, something we haven't faced yet.
Rocky
The Germans are far more advanced than the chinese. I find it quite laughable that you are laughing at the obvious.
Nobody is making a carbon copy of Mercedes, except for plants owned by Mercedes itself. What's interesting is that, both BMW and Mercedes actually have plants in China that make cars that are not rip-offs.
I guess you missed the worst car forum a few months back that had carbon copy Chinese Made Mercedes Benz cars with Chinese nameplates on them. it was either Chery or Geely that did the copying. Wow, that took real intelligence to steal somebody's design. :confuse:
Like what? Have you ever read Mises to even begin making that assessment? When I cite Mises I give citations. Otherwise, I speak with my own words. Besides, Mises is the Dean of Austrian School of Economics . . . What's Fintail's qualifications and why is he citable?
I have read some of his work and your like his pet parrot. Sure you don't have to use quotations, because you're a good "double speaker" and can twist what he is saying in your own words. I gotta give you credit for having the skills to do so.
Hmm, if they dump it, it would be like a massive Fed injection of money into the economy. It would be inflationary, not deflationary . . . not depression at all. Buying gold is not a hedge against depression . . . exactly the opposite: a hedge against inflation. If you are expecting depression, you should dump all your gold now and look forward to picking them back up later at lower prices.
What ??? Mises taught you wrong. :P Gold is the only hedge against a depression. How can you buy gold later if your currency is worthless. :confuse:
Sure, unlike the Aryans Can we all sing Deutches Uber Alles now? Shoot, the fly in the ointment with that blissful ignorance is that the Indians were the original Aryans, the people who came up with the self-identification of "Aryan" . . . and here you call them culturally retarded.
Well at some point it boils down to intelligence assuming all cultures were on this planet at the same time, right ? The Middle Easterners, are still living in the dark ages, compared to the rest of the world. The Chinese and Indians, look like 1st world nations in comparison. I also don't get why you keep bringing up the term Aryan, when I speak about the Germans ? Ne ways I don't think it was the Indians that "invented" the term Aryan. The Aryan man was blonde hair and blue eyes of Nordic decent and the Indians are quite the opposite. :confuse:
Sure, you are the omniscient one . . . never mind millions of consumers making the choice of shopping at Walmart . . . presumably they are all stupid
Yes most of us are retarded for making that choice. I'm guilty of it also. However a monopoly like Wal-mart has ceized way to much control and power, and eliminates its competition by use of its large bank roll. They are also responsible for eliminating millions of manufactoring jobs in this country, but then again we can blame the dumb american consumer. I do know one thing and that Uncle Sam, is rolling in his grave.
Rocky
Now Rocky, it won't be that bad. They don't have to call China, they can just call Willy's Walmart chain; they contact the factories they have over in China.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The consumer for years paid way too much and had to live with very shoddy workmanship for too long. GM and the rest of the American car monopoly both management and labor union are on a sinking boat and like the rats they are, are jumping off very rapidly.
If you socilaists are expecting Hillary to bail you out - you can forget it. She will sell you out, after you voted for her, faster than did Bill did!
I hope your optimistic views are correct pal.
Rocky
I never knew anyone on the GM assembly line that didn't have a high school diploma. It was a requirement when my father hired in.
The consumer for years paid way too much and had to live with very shoddy workmanship for too long.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, how and why is this the UAW workers fault. You should be blaming the engineers. Look at the quality of the vehicles like the Buick Lucerne, when GM, is committed to building good vehicles. You can give credit to the engineers for the Lucerne, being a good vehicle. The UAW, workers only just build the product with the machinery and materials given to them.
GM and the rest of the American car monopoly both management and labor union are on a sinking boat and like the rats they are, are jumping off very rapidly.
Well I agree that Ford and Chrysler are sinking, but quite the opposite is happening for GM, right now.
If you socilaists are expecting Hillary to bail you out - you can forget it. She will sell you out, after you voted for her, faster than did Bill did!
I'm hoping former Senator John Edwards to bail us out in 2008. Hillary, says she isn't running. Bill, was helluva alot better president than we have now from a working mans perspective.
Rocky
We will see what type of wage and benefits the new workers get. I would be shocked if they are as good as Toyota's.
Rocky