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Oh, and about the DCX factory in China...I think it just opened yesterday (literally) - some here were yapping about it being open some time ago. Now Chery can get to some (read: ripoff) new designs even quicker. I wonder how that goshforsaken heckhole will crush human rights next. Do everything you can to support business in first world countries, where lives and the planet both have more value.
Remember the constitition only says you have to be at least 35 years old. It says nothing about having to act it!! LOL!
I've gotten over it and re-trained. I thank Uncle Sam every few weeks for the Trade Act program. It was started in the Carter Administration in 1974, IIRC. I think a lot of these Ford, GM and DCX workers should ask about this because they are losing their jobs because of foreign competition. My foreign competitor was Airbus. The horrible tragedy of 5 years ago in NYC also helped doom us Boeing workers as well. Higher jet fuel prices, the 45 day SPEEA strike we participated in in 2000, etc, all played a part. That was, incidentally, the biggest white-collar strike in US history. We won. Trouble is, we didn't gain a thing. What a waste of time! Boeing was already paying us fair wages and benefits, generally. Stupid move to strike like that. There's always exceptions, union leads could only do so much at a time. Something else could always get in the way of helping Joe Six Pack and his particular complaint. Unions are not a bad thing, overall. Just a pain in the butt at the same time. Compromise or be cast out.
Incidentally, I'm watching an 8-part series on Cochise County here in SE Arizona. There is an old mining town here named Bisbee in which the IWW (International Workers of the World)struck in 1917. The result was that the local sheriff and posse loaded them into boxcars in the sweltering Arizona desert heat and sent them to an oakie town in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico. The author and speaker of the DVD series points out that you can still get into a fist-fight over the 1917 Bisbee Deportation today in modern-day Bisbee, population 7,000. Bisbee was once deemed the "nicest town between L.A. and St.Louis." It's high population mark was around 25,000 people. I tend to enjoy driving over there because it's climate is mild for SE Arizona(70 degrees when it's 95 degrees in Tucson)and it's architecture is interesting to look at. They have most of the old pool halls and houses of ill-repute(often the same places)still standing and touched up, being used as bars and pool halls today. Brewery Gulch still rocks on Saturday night with live music/entertainment. Point is, this bickering and fighting over worker's rights has gone on for decades, for centuries. The right decisions are not always made in labor disputes. Go get training and leave the field you're in if you're getting laid off. I would recommend the healthcare field. Just be sure and have a strong stomach for body part ailments and smells and...umm...problems. Be careful, carry a big torch and listen for Sasquatch hoots and yelps as often as you can. No, retrain in another field, I'm serious. Be changeable and adaptable and follow up on your paperwork. Be willing to work hard for your own future in getting the bureaucratic "red tape" sorted out as you fight to get your schooling funded by the Feds. Sitting around and drinking beer and compaining about the current Adminstration makes about as much sense as praising Big Ben and Coach Cowher and the rest of the Steelers for the joke that was called last year's Super Bowl. Yeah, right ref from Pittsburgh, you'll just throw in a few crappy, dishonest calls. Just a few here and there so they won't stand out as being immoral and dishonest. You and the NFL front office are a disgrace to the fans of NFL football and to your own sport. May the bird of paradise poop on your Honda Accord's windshield while Alexander and Hasselback prepare to blow the Arizona Cardinals away tomorrow afternoon.
How do we know that modern-day China is that debauched for workers still?
I'll tell you one thing. I won't just buy a Chinese car verbatim. I'll want to know it'll hold up. Bricklin now says late 2008 or early 2009 for American entry. So be it. Also, Japanese and South Korean cars are now getting so good that it's hard to just pick one car you might want. And $15,000 can buy you a good South Korean/Japanese car. They're virtually the same car nowadays. Japanese quality is no better than South Korea's Hyundai or my favorite, Kia. Suzuki's new SX-4 is now the car I have my eye on. Where else can I get a car that I can drive in 2WD(FWD), AWD lock for icy condtions and AWD standard for rainy conditions, have them available at the touch of a button, and spend $14,999 for a new car with a 7-year, 100,000 mile Warranty? Yes, I'd trade my 2001 Kia Sportage in for one of those. Thing is, why should I? My Sportage is about to turn over to 120,000 miles and I will be taking it in for it's timing belt replacement appointment next week sometime. The little SUV is built so tight and so well and it performs so well, still accelerates like it did when I bought it 5 years ago, etc., why would I trade it in? I have yet to need a single replacement light bulb for it. It still has it's original battery. And this is my favorite value stat for it. It's original Hankook tires went 102,000 trouble free miles without even as much as needing a puncture wound fixed on any of the 4 OEM tires! There was still some (about 1/8 of an inch) tread on the tires, too, the distribution spread evenly about the surface of the Hankook Wilderness SUV tire. No alignment was ever or has ever been done and I can still pick my nose freely(with the new Toyo Wilderness tires installed on my Sportage 4x4) with no hands on the wheel for longer than my wife would care to tell you about. What a rig. Look Ma! No hands!
If I get a 2007 Suzuki SX-4 and hell still has burning embers down there I'll come back and tell you about my new rig. My excitement over the SX-4 is practically eclipsed by my amazement over my own little South Korean Sportage 4x4. No issues to complain about with this little SUV. If you're still with me let me explain my stance on why I feel that the Chinese cars are going to have to be good. Real good.
Competition, my car-luny friends! Competition is hot and juicy and good! Good competition, delicious and tender, dripping off the bone with good beefy American steer taste.
No, I'm serious. I can buy a cute little new 2006 Kia Rio LX sedan now for only $9,000. That's at a local Tucson dealer, they're taking $2,000 off for their year-end clearance sale. I don't know if that is Kia's manufacturing rebate or the local Tucson dealer's concoction. But the fact is is that I can buy a great little car that gets 32 mpg city and 35 mpg highway for only $9,000.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Competition is good, real good.
We can only gain. Shop hard, shop careful. Have fun. I love to car shop.
rockylee, the demise of the American car industry could be construed as sad. If they're not delivering the goods, though, what's a pressed American consumer to do? We want good value for our money. Although many would not agree that my 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 was a smart buying decsion on my part, I have proven them all wrong by owning and operating a rig that has surpassed my wildest expectations as far as cost to maintain, repair, etc. Low cost is the simple explanation, only lower than average costs overall as the years roll by. Value given for the money paid is excellente! Primo!
Nice 6-speaker stereo system(the speakers were installed already but I bought my own Kenwood AM/FM/cassette player and had it professionally installed at Circuit City)that will blast my favorites out for me any time I want to hear them.
Life is good. Excuse me while I drive my beautiful rig over to Movie Gallery and use my one free rental to check out 'Geronimo' starring Matt Damon. This Apache Warrior-Chief was forced to surrender at this place. This incident apparently went down only 25 miles west of me here in Willcox, AZ, at a place called Cochise Stronghold. More on that later.
I'm living in the true 'Wild, Wild West'. I can almost see Artemis Gordon in his suit looking out the back of their train as they pull out of the station. Duck! Whew!
I'll have to adjust my Sonic's cap a little higher up on my head. That one came a bit too close for Southern Discomfort for me.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That the UAW receives a percentage of the Big 2.5's profits... to which the UAW is then beholden to pay out all UAW autoworkers salaries, benefits, and pensions.
:shades:
It's sad when 3 CEO's at some of the biggest company's in the world can't get a meeting to talk about trade for a few hours. :confuse:
Do you really think he won in 2000 ?
Rocky
P.S. BTW, Bill Clinton, was a Rhoade Scholar with a 181 IQ. and I remember under him much better economic times when this country sold 19 million vehicles in one yr. Perhaps you selectively have forgotten those good times ? :P
Rocky
(at least where I work)
My idea is cost effective, but when the top dogs are the ones benefiting they don't want to have their gravey tipped over. :sick:
Rocky
It's called Independent Contracting and unless the UAW draws up some new paperwork and nullifies the current contract it will not be allowed.
Not necessarily a bad idea but they'll just have to be sure they don't spend all of that money and be sure and budget to cover their state and Fed.taxes.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Rocky
Rocky
Buyouts range from $35,000 to $140,000
WAYNE -- Ford Motor Co.'s jittery blue-collar ranks welcomed news Thursday that the automaker will offer more buyouts to thin its factory work force, though many remain fearful about their future.
All of Ford's 75,000 hourly workers in the United States will be eligible for at least one of several buyout packages, which range from college tuition payments for themselves or their family members to $140,000 lump-sum payouts.
"The way things are right now in the industry, I probably don't stand a chance of retiring with this company anyway," said Felicia Stewart, who works at Ford's Wayne Asssembly Plant where the Focus is built.
Stewart, 38, has two teenagers and said she could use help sending them to college. She's considering taking a buyout even though she is years from retirement age.
"This would give me a chance at something new," she said.
News of the buyout deal reached with the United Auto Workers came a day before Ford planned to lay out details of a restructuring plan that likely will include major job cuts and accelerated plant closings.
The buyout packages are tied to length of service and other eligibility factors. They include five options that were offered to UAW Ford hourly workers in some locations in February, during a first round of buyout offers, plus three additional options. Offers include $35,000 payouts that come with full retirement benefits, $140,000 buyouts with no coverage, and include options to pay for up to $100,000 in college or vocational education for workers, their spouses and children.
"Our goal is to help our members and their families, and to make sure than any reduction in the work force at Ford takes place on a voluntary basis," said UAW Vice President Bob King, who directs the union's Ford Department.
Ford workers will have to sign up for the buyouts by Nov. 27. Ford wants to complete them by Sept. 1, 2007.
Some want new start
For many workers like Stewart, the plan gives them a better chance at starting a new life outside the factory. They can open businesses, take other jobs or go to school in hopes of launching a new career. Several workers who didn't make the cut in the first round of buyouts said on Thursday they will take the new offers.
For many younger workers, the buyouts provide hope that they will be able to keep their jobs as more senior employees opt to leave.
"Everybody's hoping they'll take the buyouts and free up space so people like me will have jobs," said David Labon, who has 16 years at Ford. "Everyone's nervous and no one knows what's going to happen.
"Even though we're on overtime right now," making the Focus, he said, "we know things can change in a second."
Employees getting off their 10-hour morning shifts at the Wayne plant were eager to learn of the deals. Many spent the day at work trying to learn any details they could.
Workers feel fearful
"I'm a nervous wreck about this," said Angelita Church, who has worked for 10 years at Ford. "If our plant closes, our jobs are gone."
Church said even if she takes a buyout, a plant closing would hit hard since she lives in Wayne, home to Wayne Assembly and Ford's Michigan Truck plant.
"Half the people in my city have their house for sale or in foreclosure," she said. "I don't know if I'm about to join them."
Church gathered in the plant parking lot with some coworkers after work and speculated on their futures with Ford.
Tammy Ayres has worked at Ford 12 years and has two children, a 5-year-old and a teenager attending Michigan State University.
"Where's Michigan going to go after all this?" she said. "Maybe we're all going to have to move to Mexico where they're building new plants."
Rhonda Faulkner, with 16 years at Ford, said she's struggling with whether to take a buyout. She thinks she needs to keep her plant job since she couldn't afford to live on what she's being offered to leave.
"If I stay, are they going to put me down to $14 an hour?" she said. "I can't live on that."
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060915/AUTO01/609150367/1148- /AUTO01
Rocky
P.S. I knew this day would come for Ford, also and I'm still sad about it.
So I guess you have the list of IQs for every President from George Washington down?
Yes he won in 2000 and 2004 (did Clinton every get a majority of the popular votes - no), outsmarting the Dems again - although I will give you that is not really hard. Dems (and unions)been losing ground since 1980.
Clinton never finsihed his Rhodes Schalarship (failed out?)
Bush has a degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard. Many a rich kid's son has failed out of both.
Rocky, blue collar jobs are dying out. Soon all those jobs will be done by Chinese, or in the end, robots as technology changes.
Instead of wasting your time in this forum replying to every post with "new ideas" circa the 1950's and trying to get back to the Dems and unions glory days.
Go back to school and get some new skills for this changing economy.
My grandmother had a copy of it my great aunt gave her.
Yes he won in 2000 and 2004
(did Clinton every get a majority of the popular votes - no), outsmarting the Dems again - although I will give you that is not really hard.
Y'all have the money to buy-off people to lie like the swift boat vets, that doesn't take much brain power.
Dems (and unions)been losing ground since 1980.
Thus peoples wages haven't kept up with the cost of living. Look at how far in debt my generation is with homes, vehicles, hospital bills, etc etc.
Clinton never finsihed his Rhodes Schalarship (failed out?)
Where did you get that hyperbole from ?....Rush ?
Bush has a degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard. Many a rich kid's son has failed out of both.
Daddy baught his grades. IMHO his dad was a pretty smart man.
Rocky, blue collar jobs are dying out. Soon all those jobs will be done by Chinese, or in the end, robots as technology changes.
So the answer is to quit resisting, and become cowards ?
Instead of wasting your time in this forum replying to every post with "new ideas" circa the 1950's and trying to get back to the Dems and unions glory days.
I'd rather waste my time in here since I do enjoy chatting with about everyone, including you.
Go back to school and get some new skills for this changing economy.
Why bother after ya graduate then corporate america will export that job over sea's or bring in foreigners on visa's to undercut you, which you won't be able to afford to compete with them since you owe a hundred plus thousand in school loans. :P
Rocky
Think of an economy as tokens and bananas (perhaps a monkey's economy ?? :-) Everyone has to eat banana to live, but banana rots every day, so tokens are necessary to "save" bananas that can not be consumed on the day they are harvested . . . in otherwords, if you havested more banana today than you need, since you can not save banana itself for tomorrow as it would rot, you can exchange your surplus banana with some other monkey for tokens that can exchanged back to banana at a later date. Historically, tokens tend to be made of hard-to-find items, like cowries, gold and silver, items that are more difficult to attain than bananas; otherwise nobody would be willing to exchange banana for tokens. Long story made short, eventually the monkey colony became dumb enough to institute a paper token system through legal tender law, where the government can produce unlimited supply of tokens at nearly no cost and every monkey is required to use it for exchanging bananas. Obviously, because the government is flooding the market with new tokens every day, a token you saved yesterday for handing in three bananas can only buy two bananas today because growing and harvesting banana takes more effort than making tokens and there are more tokens per banana today than yesterday. That's how inflation destroys savers in a paper currency system, in short. Trading with neighboring monkey tribes who are willing to take tokens in exchange for their bananas only help to make more banana available for monkeys on this side of the border ;-)
Protectionism would lead to massive inflation, thereby wiping out savers like ourselves . . . and collaterized borrowers too because the collateral for which they borrowed to begin with would also drop in value massively because high inflation would lead to high interest rate . . . as well as all captial property owner (houses, stocks, etc.) The people benefit the most from massive inflation would be un-collateralized borrowers. If you believe in protectionism and the need for massive inflation, you should borrow a ton of money on credit cards ;-) Saving on the other hand would be the dumbest thing to do in a massively inflationary scenrio.
We can also farm out a lot of executive jobs to these same people. I've met many of these guys as they stay in my area to work for MS and other similar firms, and they are all genuine, happy to be here, and hard working - not taking half the week off to drink and play golf and otherwise schmooze. The most bang for your buck...no entitlement mentality, no need for a mcmansion, a bloated poserfied SUV, and a trophy wife...
Oh wait, such jobs are sacred...an unwritten rule...
So now protectionism leads to inflation, and the idea of any kind of safety net is unnatural. Oh the economic teachings of the unwashed.
GM, Ford and DCX are going to have a very, very tough time coming back to profitability. Not sporadic profitability. I'm talking serious profitability. Toyota profitability. Get out of the automotive field all of you autoworkers and retrain in a field with a future. What are communities going to do, off-load all of the nursing and respiratory and radiology work to Mexico and India?
Don't we all demand that our local hospitals are staffed with knowledgeable, capable workers? Sure we do. We take it for granted they'll be there to help us.
The Trade Act was started in 1974 by the Carter Administration. You must work hard to ensure that your paperwork goes through. Autoworkers are losing their jobs to intense foreign competition. There are striking parallels to the airplane industry. I worked my butt off for Boeing and they rewarded me by offloading my job to an outside source(in the U.S.)that was willing to do my job for half the pay.
There is a lot of red tape in the Trade Act. E-mail your legislators. Talk to people on the net-go to the state of Michigan website and search for The Trade Act.If you work hard to get into the program you will be paid Unemployment Insurance while you study and you can get The Trade Act to reimburse your state for your tuition and books. That's right-The Trade Act will pay for your tuition and books! My case was a bit more complicated because I moved to Missouri to go to college and I was laid off in beautiful Washington state. Washington state paid me my Unemployment Insurance and the Federal government paid for my books and tuition, with that being paid by Missouri first, then reimbursed by the Fed.'s. I have a lot of respect for this program because it gave me a new skill. A skill in demand, with the demand rising more every year.
I don't want to sound like a commercial but get re-trained. Can't you see Ford and GM are doomed to fail? DCX actually looks stealthier right now than GM. DCX has the girding of Daimler to prop up their failures and mistakes.
It's all foreign for cars now, men. Just know that if you are reading this The Trade Act can help you. You must be patient and you must work very, very, very hard to see it all through. Persevere and be patient and continue to work hard and you can get a degree in a program with a future. Go for it-don't wait! It takes time to process everything. Don't wait for someone else to do the work-get going on it!
The Ford and GM turnip has been squeezed long enough and it is bleeding profusely! Get a tourniquet!
Hey, average GM and Ford worker, it doesn't matter what your UAW Rep. tells you, you're doomed in Ford and GM! Get out and re-train!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Germans making cars are not the yoddling goat herders wearing laderhosen, nor are the Chinese making cars the same people as rice paddy farmers. It would be rather foolish to assume cultural superiority or infiority when we are talking about a couple thousand people out of countries having hundreds of million of people. Making the best cars is a bit like constructing the tallest buildings . . . doesn't involve the whole country . . . not saying either German or Chinese, in general, are more advanced than the other (what the heck does "more advanced" mean anyway? by what standards and in what category?)
I doubt Chery can make a carbon copy of Mercedes. It may borrow some external look elements, like Gen1 Lexus LS, but the inside mechanicals are entirely different. The Mercedes and BMW factories in China however do make real Mercedes and BMW cars, genuine items.
Being honest is important. Which book or article of Mises did you read? You are very confused about what economic depression is vs. inflation. The two are opposites. Economic Depression is accompanied by massive price reduction (as economy grinds to a halt when people stopped buying) . . . the exact opposite of hyperinflation, when people refuse to hold onto any paper currency and want to exchange any money they get into real goods as quickly as possible.
The word "Aryan" is derived from the Sanskrit word "Arya" . . . denoting a Indo-Persian chariot-riding warrior aristocracy. It's ironic that you should belittle the middleast in the contxt of "Aryan" . . . since the only country in the world still officially calling themselves "Aryan" are the Iranians, which literally means "Aryan." Blond-hair and Blue eyes are just later [non-permissible content removed] mythology.
There is no longer a need for telephone operators or cotton mill makers but that does not mean there are not financial jobs, medical jobs and software jobs but you must retrain to get them. Soon there will be little or even, one day, no need for any type of blue collar workers. It is neither bad nor good but just a fact.
"You better get movin or you will sink like a stone". I think you leftists know the song.
I agree with most of your post except: The Trade Act was started in 1974 by the Carter Administration
The Carter Administration didn't begin its era of incompetence until Jan 1977.
Safety net is by definition unnatural; otherwise why the need for instituting safety net? Not all unnatural things are bad however (otherwise we should follow the ultimate environmentalist advice: eliminate ourselves :-) What really matters is what the safety net consists of . . . how high does it go before it becomes an undue priviledge instead of a safety net? Obviously, none of us would sympathise with a "safety net" that guarantees executives or ball players millions of dollars regardless their performance. Given that the median household tax filing showing income of $35k (cominbed if filing jointly) and $65k would make the top 20% in household income . . . Should the safety-net be $5k a year food stamps during job transition, $15k a year for re-education, $25k a year for a make-belief job, $50k a year job "security," or $100k a year? Obviously, given that $35k a year is median household/tax filer income, the privileged disincentive to make one's work actually worthwhile and respond to consumer demand change is obvious in the larger numbers. . . not to mention the rip-off for the average non-priviledged households to pay for those the priviledged.
Trade restrictions are obviously inflationary. Out-sourcing can only happen if the farther away source is less expensive . . . removing that less expensive alternative, you get higher prices . . . as simple as that.
You rightists seem to revel in the death of the middle class. It will be your undoing...religion and paranoia won't keep the poor repressed forever. The "free market"...that's like the tooth fairy.
Some safety net must exist. Welfare recipients shouldn't rake in 100K, but at the same time people should not be kicked to the street...unless you want a really bloody period in history to begin.
Higher prices vs ARTIFICIALLY low prices aren't an evil in and of themselves. When prices are kept low because of currency manipulation, environmental ignorance and abuse, and human repression and abuse, those prices are artificial.
I am far from oppressed. You are Canadian - enough said!
I'm not suggesting kicking people into the streets . . . The union wage/benefit package of $40-60/hr amounts to $90k-$130k a year. That's not safety net . . . that's priviledge! Any time would-be workers willing to take less pay and do the same work to the same quality are turned away by law to preserve existing workers at significantly higher pay . . . that's not a safety net, that's a priviledge. The turned-away applicant is ripped off, the employer is ripped off, and the consumer is ripped off. That's the essence of union: the ripping off of other workers, employers and consumers, for the benefit of union members, the union bosses and politiccians who support unions.
Debates on whose pricing is reality, whose is "artificial" can go on till the judgement day and beyond . . . that's what the markets are for: settling different opinions on pricing, at any given time. The price we assign for the environment and human labor change over time and location. That's why a fluid market works better responding to ever changing conditions far better than government fiat.
We have gone through this little more than 24hrs ago. People are having bigger homes, better vehicles and better medicine than ever before. Indebtness is not the result of lack of income pe se. In fact, a case can be made that those making more money have more debts. We just have a debt cultural going right now. Like stated before, if you believe in protectionism and the coming massive hyperinflation, you should load up on unsecured debt too. As all that will simply be washed away in a sea of worthless paper money.
So is any organized labor bad? Should workers not communicate with each other in regards to pay and benefits? The unions have indeed demanded a bit much...but does that make their principle so evil?
Markets today rely on imperfect information and an underinformed consumer base, hence the willingness of so many to buy so much Chinese junk. There's no excuse for the criminal actions of these tyrannical regimes to change "over time"...they should change their amoral actions now or trade with someone else. They need us a lot more than we need them.
To be blunt there is little to no pressure on a company to increase wages, pass its profits to the workers or lower the cost of its products.
A company will only increase wages if it needs more workers and will only lower its prices if it thinks it can make a bigger profit by doing so.
Competition is a great and wonderful thing. Only problem is corporations do not like to compete. They buy up smaller companies or exit markets. They try to produce products that are as unique as possible so that they don’t have to compete.
Also economic theory tends to make assumptions that do not hold true in the real world. Are all economic decisions purely rational? (I.e. luxury cars? Gas guzzling SUV? Environmentally sound hybrids with hard to dispose of battery packs\electronics? Driving a pick up truck to work everyday??) Are all rational decision the best ones? Is more that one rational decision possible? This is where economics falls apart.
I don’t think the UAW is responsible for the domestic’s trouble. They were profitable for decades with the UAW. What is responsible is the domestic’s bad management.
They have been loosing market share to the imports for more than a decade yet could not find a way to stop it. They have traded long range goals for short term profitability far too often.
The domestics ignored the subcompact market is the 70ies allowing the imports to get a firm foothold. Sure they had a great business decision for ignoring the subcompact market. Margins on subcompacts are less than on full sized cars. However baby boomers were just joining the workforce were unable to afford full sized cars.
In the 80ies and 90ies and they got burned badly when consumers decided that they would rather pay more for a car the lasted longer than less for a car that didn’t. Up till that time Detroit thought of a car as a disposable item. They expected people to buy a new car every 3-5 years, and so they made cheap cars that looked pretty and didn’t last much longer than 5 years. The imports made more expensive cars that lasted 7 or more years and gained even more market share.
In the late 90ies to today they chased profits on SUV thinking that low gas prices would last forever and ignored the car market allowing the imports to gain even more market share.
In the last 30 or more years management has made lots of missteps that looked rational.(i.e. fighting seat belt laws) but turned out to hurt them(German imports look safer cause they didn’t need the law to compel them to make safer cars).
Workers should not form cartel on wages any more than employers should form cartels to stonewall the workers.
Information is never perfect, and is ever changing . . . that's why there is a need for the market place to begin with . . . the primary economic function of a market place is price discovery. As to whether consumers should refuse to buy sausage because the way it is made or refuse to drive because the license plates are made by prisoners in some states (in the US) at what essentially amounts to slave wages (lower than some of the rhetorical "slave wage" paid overseas, and the prison workers indeed do not have the option of a different employer) . . . that is an individual consumer choice. Don't assume you know more than most other consumers do . . . frankly, most consumers do not care. As to who needs whom more, depending on whether your "us" is the US or Canada. Canada is a major exporter of natural resources, whereas the US is not.
The fantasyland "free market" you and your Misean compatriots dream about would have employers forming de facto cartels to keep wages lower. Collusion is a two way street, and you get the law enforcement you pay for. If corporate clowns could just assemble the brainpower to make more successful products, then everyone wins.
I'll not assume I know more than most consumers...I know it because it is true. Not caring is a direct sign of less knowledge, IMO. Ignorance. And China needs the masses of lemminglike Wally World addicts more than we need their trinkets. With some short term pain, we could make it all here...but they won't be able to sell that stuff anywhere else.
Nor does a perfectly free society without any restrictions . . . does that mean the pursuit of Freedom should be abandoned? Tell you what, that's the answer is yes according to many totalitarian regimes; in fact, that's exactly their propaganda why individuals should forsake freedom and submit to the State. "Free Market" is simply the realistic manifestation of Freedom in the economic sphere, where day to day livihood is made.
Cooperations want to make as much profit as possible. Shareholders likewise. Those actions do not directly benefit either the worker or the consumer.
To be blunt there is little to no pressure on a company to increase wages, pass its profits to the workers or lower the cost of its products.
Cooprations are not living things, they do not think for themselves. Cooporations are institutions set up by individuals in pursuit of their own happiness (i.e. profit). Likewise, governments are not living things, they do not think for themselves. Governmetns are staffed by individuals perfectly capable of pursueing their own happiness (i.e. profit). If you theme is that cooporations are selfish, it's nothing more than saying individual human beings are selfish . . . and I will add that the same individual human beings, with all their selfishness, will have to be involved in making and enforcing laws in the context of government intervention in the market place. Now, go back and think about the ramifications of the last sentence.
If you believe corporations do not face wage pressue, all you need to do is advertise a job at $6/hr, and another at $16/hr, and see the responses you get, and difference in the caliber of candidates you get. Unless your company is set up to hand out government money and not caring one squat about what gets made or served, the caliber of candidates certainly matter. If you have been in business long enough, you will know your competitors put a huge pressure on you, both in terms of product price and wages.
Of course existing companies try to minimize compeition in order to maximize profit (just a matter of human nature, how is that any different from government bureacracy), especially in a mature industry with few competitors . . . that's why we need to keep the barrier to entry low, so the new comers will be the driver of a new round of compeition. That's also why GM supported UAW in the 50's and 60's, as a grand strategy to kill smaller competitors and stymie new entrants. The smaller concerns simply would not be able to afford the massive benefit packages that have inherent economy of scale for larger companies.
There are very good rational reasons for luxury cars and SUVs. Sure, dummies do exist, but they are a statistic minority if not insignificant . . . just look at the massive rise in sales of less expensive luxury-branded cars (socalled entry-level luxury) and car based SUV's when gas price go up. Don't be so quick to belittle other consumers, unless you think very little of yourself.
The problem with UAW for the domestic auto industry is two fold:
(1) first they helped it consolidate. GM's embracing of UAW was a well thought-out economic and political ploy to eliminate smaller competitors . . . because it would be far less affordable for the smaller competitors to provide the type of benefit and wage security that GM could provide thanks to sheer economy of scale.
(2) Eventually, UAW wages reached such a level that the industry could no longer compete against imports from places with lower labor cost.
Making large vehicle vs. small vehicle is a very rational decision when your labor cost is higher than competition. Small vehicles have higher labor to material cost ratio.
I see it quite the opposite as you. The labor unions don't have the geopolitical clout that big buisness has. If they had all this power you say, they would of hung Mises and his cult of believers. :P
Big buisness controls america today, not the people like it was intended. :sick:
Rocky
Rocky
What defacto cartels to keep wages lower are you talking about? Free market means no collective wage setting by anyone. It's the statists (I'm trying hard not to use the phrase "like yourself" to keep it less personal) who want set wages for everyone, minimum wages and wage caps. Free markeers happen to believe that every individual is unique, and should be paid the amount willingly agreed to by both the employee and the employer, not some third-party minder using cookie-cutting stardards.
If corporate clowns could just assemble the brainpower to make more successful products, then everyone wins.
There are probably more "coporate clowns" smarter than both of us put together than can be counted in any reasonable fashion. How are more successful products even possible without free market? Free market compeition is what leads to a steady stream of sucessful products . . . and eliminate the incompetent firms that waste natural and human resources in the process.
Most statists believe themselves smarter than most everyone else. While I have an IQ of 140 and waste way too much time reading and gathering informaiton of all sorts ;-) I doubt any average person is any less capable of making economic decisions that is good for themselves than me personally. Most of the really cheap trickets made in China are actually not shipped to the US . . . they get sold to the rest of the world.
The irony is that, if you believe that big business control American politics today, and you want them to make more rules to control us?
A free market with no collusion on either side simply will not exist - human nature prevents it. So what are you talking about? I'm not talking about an ideal, I am talking about reality. Theory is all fun and nice, but only so much of it is relevant. Corporate entities are just another form of statists, that being the corporate state. Why are they better than any other form?
You have a fair dose of "smarter than everyone else" too, you just don't like to admit it. Don't worry, there's nothing wrong with it. The problem with the average member of the marketplace is an inability to see the big picture and think of the long term. This problem is also rampant in corporate thought. Focusing only on the near term causes long term disaster.
Ah why should high pay equal higher caliber candidates. I have known hardworking fast food workers and lazy doctors. I should hope that the screening process handles that.
I hate to say this but if you put out an ad for $6 and for $16 an hour you will get the same number of responses because $6 an hour is more than the $0 an hour you get when you are unemployed. The only time companies pay more for workers is when they have to(i.e. the lack of employees is hurting profitability and we need to attract employees from elsewhere).
In addition there are things like location, hours, benefits and retirement that can lock you into a job that pays less an hour. Plus you as a worker can not instantly transfer from one field to another due to training involved. It don’t work that way. Heck can you imagine being 60 years old and trying to get a job in a auto plant. Why hire someone who is going to retire soon.
The only reason why Toyota and the non union plants pay as much as they do is because the UAW keeps the wages high enough in the union plants to force them to. Trust me if you loose the UAW autoworker wages on the whole will decline.
Yes I am from Florida and I do love Bush.
I am a proud member of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy".
I'm no fan of big corporations. As companies get bigger, more energy is indeed lost in the layers of bureacracy. That being said, however, there is a fundamental difference between Coporate entieis and States, at least in this country (and in Canada too). Corporations do not have the power to enforce laws by themselves . . . they do not arrest or incarcerate people. States do. In fact, the only way coporations can get people into legalized physical pain and hardship is via State power. The more power we give to the State, the more likely corporations will get hold of it to the detriment of us individuals.
Fundamentally, Corporations and States are both artificial entities created and run by individual human beings. Neither is living entity and neither can think for themselves. "Corporate greed" is nothing more than greed by individuals . . . the same individuals that could well use the power of a state to satiate their own greed . . . the difference is that, while "the elite" can not find the tool of violent coercion in the "Corporate" toolbox (within the US and Canada at least), they can find it in the "State" toolbox. Furthermore, Corporations face competition all the time (so we can pick and choose), whereas States do not except in times of war. External competition is what makes corporations less corrupt than most governments.
If you do't believe $16/hr can get you more and better applicants to choose from than if you advertised the same job for $6/hr . . . well, proof is in the putting, go ahead and run a couple fake identical ads (identical except for pay) on craigslist and see for yourself.
Of course there are other consideration besides wages and pay . . . however, saying that pay scale is irrelevent is totally nonsensical . . . Pay scale is the most important factor in an employment relationship . . . do you work for free? If pays do not matter, why don't you send 60% of your pay to me ($10 out of every $16 that you earn . . . it would make no difference to you, right?).
Not accurate. Companies hire more people and pay more when they can have reasonable expectation that by hiring more and paying more they can get more return from such investment/expense. Take a moment, and think over that statement and try to visualize when several companies are trying to do the same thing. The result is that potential employees move to the most potentially profitable company. That's how efficient allocation of labor resources is accomplished. Those with the most productivity gets the first call on the labor pool.
Isn't that how a well running economy should operate? As opposed to labor being locked in obsolete companies because of empty promises of benefits and pensions . . . like the UAW contracts have accomplished for the domestic automakers for the past few decades.
You'd be blind (or blinded by something) not to realize free trade is giving consumers much more bang for their bucks on cars. The $9k Rio is far superior to the Ford Excorts. The new Kia minivan actually score higher in safety than all other minivans on the market, including the venerable Toyota and Honda . . . It goes to show that the free market place brings us surprise gifts all the time. Whether each us can overcome the prejudices and vanity to accept such gifts is a different issue . . . no one has the right to prevent others from receiving such gifts. Take for example the new Kia minivan, taking away the imports would really be injustice to growing families with babies.
I've had my 2006 Hyundai Sonata nine months now and I love it. It was the early 2006's, ones still made in Korea. I would not trade it for any car and certainly not an American car. If the US manufacturers could produce such a great car at the competitive price and labor and management quit fighting with one another they would be far better off.
In the orient, management and workers work together as separate sides of the same coin. They see each of their roles as important as the other. The greedy and incompetent CEO's in the US are always fighting with the workers who themselves are always trying to get more pay and benefits than their skills deserve. The union bosses are always out for themselvs. It is a sad scenario in this final death spiral of American car manufactures.
Really, you could see this starting in the 1970's.
While the Japanese manufacturers worked on high reliability, the American manufacturers put out a high percentage of junk for 30 years.
The Japanese continued to improve their product and moved upscale. They also continued to be better at building product that met the desires and needs of a large quantity of American consumers.
The American brands made half-hearted efforts. Ford said "Quality is Job 1", but failed to produce. They had a winner in Taurus but failed to keep this car competitive, relegating it to fleet mediocrity.
GM continued to make big iron in the 90's, pretending with all their profits that the cheap gas would never go away. When their sales began to fade, they pumped up the patriotic advertising, hoping that consumers wouldn't notice the inferior product. Meanwhile, cars like the Cavalier were left to languish for 8 years with no improvements. This was a huge strategic blunder.
What amazes me is that a) the management incompetence of Ford, GM, and Chrysler (they lost the company) was so substantial; and b) that it took so long for these companies to lose the battle. I'm surprised GM, Ford held on to their momentum as long as they did. Americans are a forgiving lot, and those who believed in the US manufacturers held on by buying American, again. And in many cases their loyalty was rewarded with junk products.
IMHO this will all be a good thing in the long run. This is the major wakeup call that will result in an American auto industry that is much smaller, but also more competitive.
I await the day where I can be proud of the products produced by American car manufacturers.