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The Growing Divergence Between Horsepower and Speed Limits
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It makes that little earthquake and tsunami in Asia look like a "backfire" in a bathtub.
starrow: how funny, I am in the Bay too, north bay to be exact. I was including your area in my remarks. I would not pay $5K extra for an extra 100 horses that I used only in momentary bursts on freeway on-ramps, but I do appreciate that there are people that would. Certainly nothing illegal about doing a 0-60 in 1.2 seconds up the on-ramp! :-)
I wish I had the time and idle money to be a regular track-goer, because that would make a high-powered car worth it to me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree. When I got the Vette I had some view of learning to drive better but I didn't take a class for 18 months. Since then, it has been expensive! BTW, I think my 0-60 is only just under 5 sec's.
I want future transportation technology asap. And I believe that there are remarkable breakthroughs in materials and energy to come. Hopefully in 100 years our transportation is as different as the current is from 1906. I want the power and capability to travel as far and as fast as possible, and if it can fly or submerge, great.
We could use more roads though. But if we build more, then more houses will be built (I think they're legally tied together). And that'll defeat the purpose of more roads. So... we need smaller cars so we can draw more lanes into what we have. Leave the outer lanes wide, for the trucks. You can see smog over San Jose, so we have to do something about emissions too. You can do that without reducing power, to a point.
And lest one think it is ultra-slow as a result, it does 0-60 in about 8.5 seconds due to its light weight, which ties the Corolla, beats the Camry and Accord 4-cyls as well as the Explorer V-6 (the old one; here I am just tossing out an assortment of the most popular vehicles on the road), and even beats a fair assortment of the compact and midsize sedans on the road. Very respectable braking distances too, and also gets the highest rating from the NHTSA for safety.
Oh yeah, and it can get to 60 mph on the uphill freeway on-ramps too. Not to mention being decently nimble, again because of the light weight. Point is, I know not everyone wants a very basic car like this, but just as much IF NOT MORE can be accomplished by reducing weight as by massive increases in horsepower.
Did you hear that great pains were taken with the design of the latest Mercedes S-class, using all sorts of expensive lightweight materials everywhere, to keep the curb weight DOWN BELOW 4400 pounds??!! What is this world coming to? Of course, it has honking V-8 and larger engines available to bring this enormous mass to freeway speed. And to do up to 150+ mph on the summer tires, if you so desire. Again, when will the opportunity EVER arise?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I will miss the RSX for many reasons, but I won't miss high insurance rates, a noisy ride, a crappy stereo, and electronic glitches, all of which are eliminated from my life in the Echo at half the price.
And instead of 31 mpg, I am getting 41! :-)
I am going to put 185/60s on this car instead of the stock 175/65s, which will improve high speed stability a bit. The high sides do catch the wind, but they also allow for a high roof so I don't feel wedged into the car the way I did in the RSX.
And no, this car will never go to the track or win a drag race, but on the streets where it is designed to be operated, it will have plenty of get up and go to do the job I have in mind for it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There go your decent 0-60 mph numbers and your 41 mpg.
Welcome to 0-60 in 10 seconds and 31 mpg...
:P
hpmctorque: It is an Echo 4-door with A/C, CD, and cruise. Manual windows, locks, mirrors, and transmission! :-)
I just found myself needing the back seats way more than I expected (niece and nephew transport duties, including a car seat), and not wanting to have to drive the truck all the time to meet that need. Not to mention, even though the gas prices have droped back, I expect to see them at $3/gallon again at least once this year, and with the amount of driving I do, even the RSX's 31 mpg was lower than I would like. I love the elementality of this Echo.
The RSX had about 25K on it when I sold it. THERE was a car that would bounce off the speed limit before I knew it every time I pulled away from a stoplight. And was "only" 160 hp. What people do with the type-S, I just don't know! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Since you have to pay annual property taxes and it can be taken away from you for non payment do you really own a home? The answer is yes.
FWIW you can lose just about anything for non payment of just about any tax. Don't believe me? Try not paying your income tax this year.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm imagine you considerded waiting for the Yaris and Fit, but thay will cost more than an end-of-model-run Echo.
If I go extra money for 15s, I want alloys, so I would rather dig around and buy used alloys for the Echo than have to buy a fully loaded Yaris to get them.
Anyway, thanks for the congrats! I have gotten a bit off-topic here. I will certainly keep the stock-sized tires long enough to try to set some personal mpg records with them. And I am sure that along the way I will do some exceeding of the speed limit myself, even with my lowly 108 hp! Which is easier to do than you might think, in such a lightweight car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
However it must simply be noted how poorly these little cars do when selling to the mass market. If the newest model of the Camcord isn't more powerful than the old model there is very little the manufacturer can do to justify selling the old one and getting a new one. You have to admit one of the reasons for the Newer Civic SI Hatch falling on its grill has to be that it had less power than the other pocket rockets that were produced at the time. There are other reasons I am sure but we have talked about this before. But I think as long as people are willing to put out the extra money for as much power as they can afford I can see very little future for a less is better approach that some are suggesting. Unless we are talking about a new years diet plan. *S*
But lets face it. In a forum full of enthusiasts even if they manufactured cars with a limit of 100 HP people like myself would be putting puffers on them to get 180 HP, dropping them 2 inches and putting soft sticky tires on them once or twice a year. And I don't believe I am in the minority here.
I am quite sure you are firmly in the majority here at Edmunds, boaz! :-)
I am in the City a lot, and doing that in my truck is just killer in gas bills. Not to mention there are 20 miles of suburban freeway for me to cover between here and there, before we even talk about driving the city streets.
I didn't sell the RSX because I didn't like it, but rather for a couple different reasons, ONE of which was every time I started to have a bit of fun in it, I broke about ten traffic laws, which kind of gets right to the crux of this thread, doesn't it?
The Echo can't get me in as much trouble with the law, it is MUCH cheaper to insure, and gets about 25% better gas mileage for all the driving I do. Yes, it's a cheap car in some ways, but it does the job I have for it, no question.
Now, my question for you is this: how do we convince people to lay down extra bucks for reductions in weight, rather than the time-honored tradition of only shelling out for big boosts in horsepower? And whatever happened to self-restraint anyway? :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's Sport Compact Car getting a Nissan Sentra SE to do a 14.3sec quarter mile with weight reduction as the major mod =].
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0208_scared/
There are a lot of 4 cylinder, fuel efficient engines out there that produce plenty of torque/hp. If they would just be put in a low weight (<2500 lbs) rear drive coupe I would be all over it.
Or they could go the other way and make the gearing taller for much better fuel economy (its FE ratings right now are absurd for such a small 4-cyl car). Even then it would be a fast car I bet.
The hybrid Camry will use the 4-cyl engine (depowered) rather than the 6-cyl the Accord uses, so its performance should be somewhere between the gas 4 and 6, probably closer to the 4 than the 6. I will wait to see the ratings and the price before I cheer. If Toyota follows its own tried and true tradition, it will only offer a full loaded Camry XLE Limited with the hybrid powertrain, so that the sticker will be like $28K. A lot of money to spend, and lots of people who want to save gas don't want all those whoop-de-whoos that the top-end midsize cars have in them. OTOH, in terms of performance, it should be just about right, perhaps even on the fast side of just right.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Randy
There lies the problem. If you can get a 2006 camcord with 240 HP and in 2008 they offered the same car but one had 260HP and the other had the same 240 but was 300 pounds lighter how do you advertise the advantages of the 240 HP car? We already know how the difference in weight between two vehicles involved puts the lighter vehicle at a disadvantage so how could someone expect to sell the lighter vehicle for more money? There is absolutely no incentive to get the buyer into the showroom. So yes there may be a few looking for a light weight car but not enough to impress any board of directors.
I do have to ask another question of you my friend. When you had the Matrix I remember you defending the first Prius as not necessarily being and underpreformer compared to less expensive cars. You at one point stated you would consider a Hybrid. However you ended up getting a RSX. Passed over the Prius then for fun factor I suppose. Now you have a Echo, same choice as when you got the RSX and once again the Hybrid slipped out of you pocket. So as someone indicating interest in a Hybrid what turned you off this time?
How could Toyota take 500 pounds out without resorting to very expensive materials? Sure, a fully decontented (no A/C or sunroof, and manual everything) tC would be considerably lighter, and cheaper, but probably not 500 lbs lighter, with conventional materials. I value weight savings as much as you do, for the same reasons, but one has to be realistic. Also, while the manufacturers may not be as obsessed with weight savings as some of us would like them to be, can anyone seriously doubt that they're very mindful of the relationship between weight and fuel economy? The only things I'd be willing to give up on the tC would be the sun roof and a little engine displacement in the interest of fuel economy, but not A/C, for sure, or the power and safety items.
I assume you are referring to accidents here, and as far as I know, while this was the NHTSA's official position in the early 90s (which led to a rapid expansion in the most overweight vehicles of all, SUVs), they have since come out and said that it was inappropriate for them to push that position, as there are a great many variables, and that heavier higher vehicles have inherent safety risks of their own that smaller lighter ones don't.
Now you are right on point with regard to my buying decisions! I bought the RSX for some fun, now I bought a high FE small car (the Echo) instead of a hybrid. Last time I had a Prius for a week (current model) I averaged with my driving pattern (suburban, no stop and go commute) and style (fuel economy-minded) 44 mpg. I just finished my first tank of gas in the Echo, which I am not even sure was totally full, and got 38 mpg! I am sure I can better that next time around, and with numbers that close Prius or other hybrids don't make much sense for me.
IF:
I lived in the city; OR
I had a stop and go commute; OR
I didn't take so many long trips (best FE in the Echo, but not Prius' strong suit)
THEN a hybrid might have been the right purchase for me. However, there is a lot of feature content in all the hybrids that I would not want if I had the choice, like auto climate control (having had it in a couple of different cars, I think it is overrated), HIDs, etc. So why would I pay more for all that stuff when a less expensive car had the basics I want, with about the same Fuel economy?
BTW, the first Prius was an underperformer in the context of the market, but we had a fleet of them at work, so whenever I would take one out, I would let co-workers drive, and they would all pronounce power "just fine" when I asked.
The new one is much better acceleration-wise. It can now match tires with a 4-cyl Camry, which isn't the fleetest of foot, but is no 60s VW bus either. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
marketing: Aw crap, the Celica's sales suck now! We want to kill it, but we should put something in to sort of replace it.
engineering: well, we have this much heavier midsize car platform from Europe. If you want we could drop a bigger engine it, restyle it as a 2-door coupe, and certify it for the U.S.
marketing: now there's a thought! In fact, we could use a third model for the Scion line. 2-door coupes are "young and fresh", why don't we make it a Scion while we're at it?
engineering: no prob, give me about 18 months.
If the tC had been designed from the ground up as a light coupe, as the Celica was, it could be a LOT lighter than it is. I agree that it is hard to take an existing car and carve out lots of pounds. Although just eliminating the all-glass roof would have to be a good start.
On a more general note, consider how many car models now exist that can exceed 100 mph for top speed. What on Earth for, especially among the commuter set?
In fact, it is very rare to find a car or truck (more often truck than car) that CAN'T exceed 100 mph.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You can see with many cars on the market that consumers are demanding more power; amongst thhe small cars are the Miata, the Civic, the Solstice, the corvette, and on and on. Every generation of exotic offers more power.
Mayybe a fuel crisis will change this, but people won't like it. the inherent nature of people is to want more.
But the joke here is, they had ALREADY DONE THAT. It was called the Celica. You know the base weight of that car was only 2425 pounds?
The magic of the tC for Toyota was profit margins, which is exactly what they are really savvy at, you are right. Existing platform and components, just put a new hair-do on it (styling it to be a 2-door) and put it out there.
Plus, it doesn't have to be put together in Japan and shipped over.
Celica was on a modified Corolla platform, and was built only in Japan. The price was too high. It had the burden of ancestry to deal with there - rarely does a manufacturer lower the price from one generation to the next. What they should have done is made the full power package and A/C standard, given it the tC's styling, and put it back out there.
But anyway, I am totally digressing here. The Celica and the tC BOTH are/were capable of way more performance than you could ever exploit on the street, except maybe once or twice a year. I believe, At least they are sport coupes. I think this thread is much more pertinent with regard to cars like V-8 pick-ups (ones not being used for towing, so IOW the vast majority on the road), Chrysler 300Cs and their ilk, and fancy baubles like AMGs and M-series BMWs (although I suppose that in the case of the M's, there ARE a significant number of owners who actually DO go out to the track regularly. I would hope so, with the amount of money these cars cost). Most of the Lexus line is overpowered in the context of this discussion. Even a V-6 in your average midsize sedan for family transport duties is probably overkill.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
me: I drive on a 2-lane highway, that's curvy and has a few short straightways with dashed yelloe lines. Now if there's a truck going 45 mph and I want to pass, I have a few hundred feet, and a car in the opposite lane may be coming towards me at 60mph. Are you sure you're talking for the majority of people, or just your driving environment? Does my wife's 5.3L pickup have too much power if we use it once every 10 years to drag a tree felled by a storm from our driveway?
If someone gets mad at you on the road, and sticks a gun out the window at you, are you going to feel your Echo is adequate to put some distance between you? Life is not a series of events that are planned, predictable, and that you have control of. Thus your "normally required" power standard is an inferior philosophy.
That is a rural environment, a curvy two-lane with short passing sections. So yes, I'm talking for the majority, specifically the 80% or so of Americans that live in urban areas. If you are in the lucky 20%, then no, I am not speaking for you.
2. "Does my wife's 5.3L pickup have too much power if we use it once every 10 years to drag a tree felled by a storm from our driveway?"
IMO, yes, but this one is more complicated. First of all, I don't believe anyone should be basing their power needs on a once-in-ten-years event that may not happen at all. Opinions will vary there of course. Secondly, and more pertinently, how do you know that a much lower-powered vehicle could not accomplish the same task? Have you tried? Besides, you could certainly rent a truck or better yet hire a hauler to do the same job, since it is so infrequent. The hauler would also be able to dispose of it for you, thereby saving you some hassle.
3."If someone gets mad at you on the road, and sticks a gun out the window at you, are you going to feel your Echo is adequate to put some distance between you?"
Again, a very unlikely event and therefore not one I feel I should base my buying decisions on, but yes. I will just hit the brakes and make a turn.
I do not make purchase decisions based on fear, and I content myself with the knowledge that for the very occasional task for which I do not have an adequate vehicle, I will be able to rent one to do the trick.
I must admit that when this thread was started, I assumed we would see lots of street hot-rodders on here explaining how they really HAD TO HAVE an extra 500 hp because they just couldn't get from stoplight to stoplight fast enough, and similar remarks. Yours is an interesting and unexpected perspective.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
me: well the last time this happened a few years ago, and it will happen again, was during an ice storm. With thousands of trees down and branches down in the area, and phone and electric out and 15" of snow, it is doubtful you are going to get anyone, even if they're not busy helping themselves. So if you are not able to HELP YOURSELF and our whole neighborhood helps each other, you're going nowhere, and no one's coming to get you. And this isn't that rural being 20 miles from 2 cities of 100,000 and 60 miles from Boston. People in many areas prepare to fend for themselves for days or weeks because of natural disaster issues - having firewood, installing generators, stocking some food and water, and having vehicles that can get them thru difficult weather, or plow themselves out.
you: Again, a very unlikely event and therefore not one I feel I should base my buying decisions on, but yes. I will just hit the brakes and make a turn.
me: Unlikely, but you need to consider the consequences if you are the unlucky one. I do know with the amount of crime listed in the paper that it is much more likely then winning the lottery.
you: I content myself with the knowledge that for the very occasional task for which I do not have an adequate vehicle, I will be able to rent one to do the trick.
me: No, you can not predict the next minute. If your area has an earthquake for instance you are going to have the vehicle you have, the amount of gas in it, and the food and water you have then.
And you don't have to live life "in fear", to be prepared for emergencies. Do you not have a smoke alarm or fire extinguisher because you're not afraid of fires? or you don't believe in keeping medicines in the house? or do you think police should not wear bodyarmor because they rarely get shot at? No you err on the side of caution when your life is possibly at risk (at least greater probability than winning Powerball).
For everyone out there, this is a "good enough." Many environmentalists make do with a Prius which still does use gas. Boy racers buy Mustangs and Civic Si's instead of Bugattis. Soccer moms buy cars with 8 seats instead of the 15 they need to carry a full team.
None of those vehicles will be of any use when zombies take over the world and you're on your own. Doesn't mean it was a dumb idea to buy it. Trust me, life is better with the motto, what could possibly go wrong??
My wife and I had gone ot visit my son stationed at Fort Hood Texas and we discovered what driving in that state was like. Long roads and a lot of space between towns. Coming home we decided to visit Santa Fe New Mexico so we decided to take I-285 from western Texas on the 10 up to the 40. Well texas has a lot of two lane roads with speed limits in the 75 MPH range. And believe me just about everyone is trying to make time between the cities you might be heading for. It was not uncommon to cruise at 85 for hours on end. When you would come to a truck that was doing 70 it felt like he was crawling. Now a small light car might seem nice but when you are running into 40 MPH head winds and pull into the other lane to pass a 80 foot truck doing 70 smaller lighter and less HP would not give you the same feeling of satisfaction as the extra 20 ponies that have been added to my car. The lowering and suspension work made driving in the wind a lot nicer as well. This kind of driving is not a once in a life time thing for many of us. The mountain roads during the work week and the high speed long two lane roads on vacation happen a lot once you get the kids out on their own.
Now I know some have said that you just have to plan more when passing in a light weight low powered car. But you add wind and that same car seems a little less attractive than it might in a Chrysler 300C or even a V-6 accord. And it only takes one or two experiences like I have mentioned to make a power believe in most drivers.
Good point about high wind too. Between Vegas and LA, the crosswinds were crazy and it was tiring to keep a straight line. If I did that more than once in a long while, I wouldn't want a light car either.
Personally, I'd just take a chainsaw to it. Cut it into manageable pieces and be done with it. If you drag it out off of the road or driveway, you have to cut it up eventually right?
Nothing beats a bihg honkin chainsaw....
:-)
Also, unlike probably EVERYBODY posting here, I would contemplate just staying behind the truck for a while - I am assuming that from time to time there were passing zones with a second lane.
So our comfort zones are just set differently.
Now the altitude thing is a separate factor, and I can appreciate that folks who live at 5000 feet or higher might want a more powerful car because of the decreased potency of the engine at thise altitudes. Although here is another place where I would think that one benefit of a small car would be the low weight?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The X-Type is primarily driven as a winter vehicle, and traction is at a premium compared to power.
My wife's Silverado would be the vehicle to take in the winter when conditions are severe, as it hhas more power, and ground clearance.
All people are limited by budgets. You could ask why don't I drive a Viper or Saleen S7? Don't you think I realize we can't all afford the best? My point on this topic is that if you can afford more power at any price point (of the car) you should buy it.
As vehicles become more powerful with the new introduction of models, I will also upgrade. I'm considering a 6.0L GTO to replace the Firebird Formula.
me: If you start at the same distance behind an 18-wheeler at 70 mph, say 40 feet, take into account the length of the truck, and then pull back in front of the truck at a safe distance (40'+?), what do you think the time difference would be between your Echo, and my 330hp Firebird?
Now figure what speed you're at to pass this truck quickly, maybe up to 85-90mph? and calculate how far you're travelling. Then calculate if a vehicle in the oncoming lane is travelling 85mph towards you. So my back of the envelope calculation is that you'd have to ascertain any ncoming traffic at about a distance of a mile in our Echo. My pass might require 0.5 mile of clear road. No difference huh? You might need plastic seats if you try that!
Or don't they have "the law" in your neck of the woods?
Do you have any analogies of you utilizing ALL of your HP without breaking the law? any rubber squealing is considered illegal too you know, so no burnouts
:-)
me: that wasn't an analogy, it was an example; and it wasn't my original example.
Do you think the law always protects us to the maximum, possible? In this example on a 2-lane highway with oncoming traffic what do you think is safer, a pass that takes 15 sec. or 25 sec.?
james
me: So said the school of fish, when the first one crawled up on land a few hundred million years ago.
You also consider my thought on being prepared, with inactivity which is totally wrong. What I'm stating is that when you do an activity you should get the best equipment you can afford.
If you want an analogy, I live close enough to Mt. Washington, the tallest mountain in the East, and 1 of the worst weather locations in the world. Every year thousands and thousands of people hike it. But there are always a few who either are killed or are rescued from their near-death hike during 6 months of the year. What's the difference besides the weather conditions? The preparedness of the hikers.
If you start on a bright sunny morning with a coat, light hiking shoes, and a day's food and water, you might find a change in weather makes that inadequate. Groups of hikers would be well-advised to leave with compass or GPS, cell-phone, flares, waterproof-matches, kindling, sterno, a utility knife, MRE's, and heavy gloves, coat, hat, and boots (I'm sure I'm missing items).
you: Trust me, life is better with the motto, what could possibly go wrong??
me: Isn't that a Homer Simpson quote from the control room?
I was thinking a while back that I would go on the 80,000 ton (medium large) Norwegian Dawn out of NYC. But does anyone remember what happened to it a year ago off the Carolina coast? It was damaged in a storm by a rogue wave that flooded cabins and ripped hot tubs from the upper deck. The dawn limped home. But if the storm was a little more severe, and the ship was hit by a few more waves like that ... A bigger, more powerful ship would not be as bothered by such a storm.
I really don't see why I would want less power in my vehicle or the ship or plane I'm on. If I had a spaceship, I'd want the power to pull out of the event-horizon of a black-hole.
The question simply breaks down into what do people want to buy. The answer for as many years as I have been alive is bigger and more powerful. Look at the first Accords and look at them now. Look at the early Civics and the new ones. You are one of the very few people I have talked to that even considers these sub compacts as an option. Not enough thought of the Echo as an option to keep them worth producing. I might not go the the extream as some other posters here would but very few of us want our new and improved whatever it is to be de-contented from what we already have. No one wants a slower computer or a weaker microwave. In fact even when I bought my drum kit I wasn't interested in light weight hardware.
To answer an earlier question you asked, I don't see any way to get the public to pay more for less. We expect to pay less for less and as you well know that is why sub compacts are not the main profit makers for any car company.
The whole weight thing kind of got off on a tangent anyway. The primary question remains the level of power in today's vehicles that is so high they can not only exceed but in many cases DOUBLE the local speed limit. But if passing is everybody's gig, then I must sigh and concede. The urgent desire for 5-second passing times at 85 mph is leading us into an ever-increasing dependence on foreign oil and a surge in greenhouse gas emissions. This BTW is also a huge tangent, so please don't respond. I understand many people disagree that these things are linked.
If as a society we could just learn to slow down a bit, we could probably eliminate many of the traffic-related fatalities out there, and we wouldn't need so much power under the hood either. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)