Lincoln MKX

nvbanker

They do still seem to be suffering from a diversity problem, don't they?

You're exactly right on the buyouts - I've been through that, and exited quickly, lest I be left with all the idiots who couldn't find work elsewhere. Kind of like being sent to Iraq, I guess.

ANT was still around as recently as a month ago - but he's in new product development, not old opinions. So, these aren't the boards he's commenting on anymore. Probably too busy. Lots of new product on the wall right now. But I miss him. He was very helpful.

If Ford has cars for Whites, Gays, Blacks & Women, which car is for Hispanics? Just wondering, since I believe ANT is one. Ah, the MKX maybe?

displacedtexan

Little things mean a lot.

I submit that when the reviewers first sat in the MKX and noticed the D-L shift selector, their mental image was "Another Town Car/ Grand Marquis". This applied a negative bias to their evaluation that they looked hard to justify.

Further, that the presence of a manumatic would have applied a whole different, more positive spin to their writing.

I think that's an important point. Until someone posts a study of manumatic use, arguments over whether they're used or not, or useful or not, are moot. The impression left on the buying public, and automotive press, of not having one is going to hurt sales.

lateralg

A facet of human nature that I find fascinating is our ability to make judgements on we have little/no direct experience with; e.g. "useless".

I wish that those who judge select-shift, manumatic, etc. as useless, evaluate the following USES in a car so equipped:

* On snow/ice, start in 2-nd or 3-rd gear.
* Give 'fragile' passengers a smoother take-off (no neck-jerking) by starting in 2-nd or 3-rd.
* On long downgrades, select a gear one or two lower than normal driving gear ... then note the absence of brake smell when arriving at the bottom.
* When anticipating a passing situation on a 2-lane road, manually select the passing gear ahead of time. When the opportunity to pass arrives, merely get on the throttle ... no unpredictable wait for kick-down, no wondering which gear the transmission will select, no neck-snapping.

IMO a person driving a car so-equipped, who doesn't use one or more of these features, is little more than a passenger who happens to have the keys.

nvbanker

I never use it upshifting, but I downshift all the time, to slow down on hills, etc.

explorerx4

i find the gas pedal is enough for me. i don't want to screw up that 'adaptive' tranny by throwing it a curve by manually shifting.

akirby

If you downshift a manumatic, do the rpms go up? If I downshift a lot does that save wear on the break peddle? Does it work better on cars with lots of low-end torque?

qbrozen

If you downshift a manumatic, do the rpms go up?

yes. you are selecting a lower gear, so the rpms must increase.

If I downshift a lot does that save wear on the break peddle?

it will reduce wear on the brake pads, but at what cost? You will be decreasing the life of the transmission, however minor. You may not notice it since the tranny could go out at 190k miles instead of 200k or you'll sell the car by then. It also depends on what you mean by "alot."

Does it work better on cars with lots of low-end torque?

hmmmm... that's one I'm not sure I have an answer for. I would guess typically, yes. But, then again, if the car has alot of torque, you won't need to downshift as much for acceleration purposes.

akirby

Those were rhetorical questions - inside joke. Sorry.

lateralg

You can't screw up the adaptive tranny by manually shifting. It doesn't work that way.

lateralg

Tossing out some bait, Allen?

nvbanker

i don't want to screw up that 'adaptive' tranny by throwing it a curve by manually shifting

Your tranny isn't "that adaptive". And downshifting or even upshifting won't affect it that way.

explorerx4

alright, i admit, bad attempt at humor.
i use my gas pedal foot to get my autos to downshift and sometimes upshift. they seem to be willing.
occasionally, i will start out in 2 instead of leaving it in drive.

akirby

Nope, just having some fun.

maximafan

"I believe our discussion has to do with how
many people fall into each category."

Well, I thought that's what I was doing. I
stated my opinion. That would put me in a
certain category, wouldn't it?

lateralg

One for your side, one for mine. Score tied.

akirby

Make that 2 to 1 in favor of manumatic shifting.

driverdm

Manu matics now! Manumatics tomorrow! Manumatics forever! I don't know why Ford isn't listening. That is just one more thing for people to constantly clamour about. Just give the people what they want. POWER TO THE PEOPLE... MANUMATICS AS WELL.

displacedtexan

I'll vote for the other side. If it meant saving some dollars on the price, I'd forego it. If I want to shift, I want the whole enchilada - the joy of heel/toe clutching and shifting. That's my personal preference.

That being said, I do think lack of it leaves a sour impression on too many people, especially the automotive writers who have the bully pulpit.

snakeweasel

I'll vote for the other side.

Same here, If I want to shift I'll get a manual, a real manual.

akirby

Even though I prefer a manumatic (had and used one for 6 years in my LS) I have to admit that I don't miss it in my Fusion. So I don't think it's necessary from an overall sales standpoint as most buyers won't ever use it.

My issue is that it gives people and the media one more thing to gripe about with Ford. They need to remove anything that gives anyone something to gripe about. Make all the safety equipment standard. Make all options available on all models (nav, etc.). Find out what reviewers gripe about and fix it.

FWIW, I think Fields understands this as he was personally responsible for the side airbags being standard on the Fusion for 2007. And notice the Edge gets Nav and the Vista roof from day one. I think they get it, it's just a question of how quickly they can implement it.

akirby

Manuamtics are NOT an alternative to a real manual. At least not the ones we're talking about here.

GIVEN that you want or need an automatic - do you want more control over it? Hold a lower gear coming out of a corner for better acceleration. Prevent automatic up or downshifts.

Would you rather have wipers that only have Hi/Lo or would you like intermittent settings also? Same thing.

rcf8000

I vote in favor of manumatics. They're real handy in mountain driving. Don't use it much otherwise, though.

snakeweasel

They need to remove anything that gives anyone something to gripe about.

You do realize that those who gripe like to gripe and if they don't have anything to gripe about they will make up something to gripe about. So if you eliminate everything that these people to gripe about they will find something.

qbrozen

I thought it odd that YOU were asking those questions.

by the way, inside jokes typically don't work well on the internet. ;b

akirby

Yes, but the less ammunition you give them the easier it is to dismiss them.

snakeweasel

Manumatics are NOT an alternative to a real manual.

I never said they were, I just truely question if they are really useful as those who really want to shift will but a manual.

Lets be honest how many people actually use their manumatic? I would say it is a small percentage.

If you truely want to have more control over the shifting get a manual, if you want to hold a lower gear coming out of a curve for better acceleration (what are you doing trying to lose the police?) get a manual.

akirby

If you truely want to have more control over the shifting get a manual, if you want to hold a lower gear coming out of a curve for better acceleration (what are you doing trying to lose the police?) get a manual.

Manuals are no fun in stop-n-go rush hour traffic. Not to mention there are some who aren't physically able to drive a manual. I may want an automatic 95% of the time but why not make the other 5% a little more fun?

lateralg

Please tell me how to get a manual in a vehicle that has almost everything I want except the manual; e.g. MKZ, EDGE. Are you proposing that I compromise & buy a Mustang?

I have to repeat what I said earlier: Those who have manumatic but don't use it, are little more than a passenger who happens to have the keys.

snakeweasel

Manuals are no fun in stop-n-go rush hour traffic.

I know thats why living in the Chicago Metro area all my daily drives have been automotics.

akirby

I take it by that comment you have a daily driver automatic and a weekend car with a manual? What if I can't afford or don't want 2 cars? I have to put up with a manual in rush hour every day just to have fun on the weekends? Or I have to do without fun on the weekends?

Why can't I have the best of both worlds? It's just software. If you don't want to use it you don't have to.

snakeweasel

Please tell me how to get a manual in a vehicle that has almost everything I want except the manual; e.g. MKZ, EDGE.

Well from what I know you won't be getting a manumatic either. But life is a series of choices and compromises, if you want to drive a stick there are certain cars you cannot drive.

If you want a phoney shifter go right a head, if I want to shift I will get a manual (or better yet just drive my Caddy :P )

snakeweasel

I take it by that comment you have a daily driver automatic and a weekend car with a manual?

not until recently. Most of my life I just suffered with the auto (with the exception of when I lived in a less populated place where I didn't see a stop light for two years).

But when the wife and I decided to get a luxury car for those special times we bought a CTS with a manual.

What if I can't afford or don't want 2 cars?

thats where you have to make a choice or compromise.

Why can't I have the best of both worlds?

Because its not the best of both worlds, its the best of one and that one world doing a so-so impression of the other.

lateralg

Snake, I just don't understand your logic. It seems that your arguement is that adding the manumatic feature is a detraction to the transmission. Why argue against an added feature?

If it's there, use it or become a "passenger".

[Deleted User]

Ok, you've made your point. Most people WON'T use the manumatic.

However, like with a tape player, combination locks on the driver door, airbags, traction control, ESP, etc., it depends on where you drive, how you drive, preferences and unforeseen circumstances. Conceivably, a person could drive daily and never use ANY of these features, even with the car so equipped. That one time you do use the feature will make the car more desirable than one that is not so equipped.

Manumatics are a poor compromise, but they are a compromise. They do allow a flexibility in mountain driving or slippery conditions--or just the admittedly pointless ability to run through the gears for the aural pleasure on a weekend day with the windows down.

It may be moot. With seven speed transmissions coming on line, D an L isn't going to suffice anyway. Also--eventually, more companies are going to offer the double clutch manuals that shift themselves, like Audi, VW, Maserati, Ferrari, etc. already do, because they are more efficient in terms of both acceleration and mpg. And they don't sound weird like continuously variable transmissions often do. These also allow you to shift for yourself if you wish. Many people never will, but leave the switchgear there for those of us who might appreciate it.

snakeweasel

Thats not my argument, my argument is why play shifting when you can have the real thing. I really see manumatic as one step above moving a normal automatic between "D" and the lower gears. If I want to shift I would get a real manual transmission.

Most manual drivers I know scoff at those manumatic as posers. And in a way they are right.

snakeweasel

It may be moot. With seven speed transmissions coming on line, D an L isn't going to suffice anyway.

It is moot but I really don't see the need for a 7 speed automatic (or manual for that matter) unless its a semi.

lateralg

why play shifting when you can have the real thing.

The point is two-fold, I can't get the "real thing" in the vehicle I need ... it's simply not available.

And I don't want the "real thing" in my CUV. I get my left leg workout with my daily driver.

akirby

Again, you miss the point. ASSUME you need an automatic - for whatever reason. GIVEN that you have an automatic, do you want D-L, D-4-3-2-1 or full manual shift control? It's a useful feature that some people actually use and since it's only a software change now that most trannies are computer controlled it's not a big deal to offer it.

I've said repeatedly that it's not a substitute for a manual.

scootertrash

All of this misses the point.

"Luxury" is more about perception than reality.

It's not about what you NEED it's about what you (think) you WANT.

How many people have fancy watches with all kinds of features they never use? Yet, they had to have them when they were buying. Same with TV's. People shop based on the feature load, but then get them home, plug them in, and never read the manual.

When anyone who has more than a very basic knowledge of vehicles looks down and sees only D and L, they know they are getting shortchanged.

Same with the infamous hood prop rod, it works perfectly fine, yet makes a statement about pinching pennies.

The accountants who sit in their cubicles and plan this miserly stuff just hope you won't notice during the test drive, and only discover it after you get it home.

Whether one shifts, or not, is moot.

When you expect nearly $50k for a luxury vehicle, you include what buyers expect, not only what the accounting department decided they actually need.

snakeweasel

GIVEN that you have an automatic, do you want D-L, D-4-3-2-1 or full manual shift control?

When I am driving an automatic I want to forget about shifting altogether.

akirby

So why begrudge the rest of us who don't feel that way?

heyjewel

"But when the wife and I decided to get a luxury car for those special times we bought a CTS with a manual."

Another potential LS sale lost due to Lincoln's inability to sell to this market.

heyjewel

" Stoopid D-L shifter, hood prop rod, I'll add intrusive trunk hinges... The accountants who sit in their cubicles and plan this miserly stuff just hope you won't notice during the test drive, and only discover it after you get it home."

You make a brilliant point there, one that I'm sure is correct. Sales(wo)men are the final liar in the line of offense.

Case in point - the Mercury Mariner and Ford Escape have optional navigation systems. No body tells you that these el cheapo systems need like 12 CDs to cover the USA. You'll discover that the first time u drive a few hundred miles.

snakeweasel

I am not, I am just saying if you want to do it do it right.

snakeweasel

FWIW I was never a potential LS sale. The only car Lincoln has recently made that I would consider is the Town Car.
Now that doesn't mean we won't get the MKX because my wife likes it.

akirby

Doing it right obviously means something different to you. Fine. Move on.

[Deleted User]

Again, the double clutch manuals that shift by computer (unless you choose to move through the gears yourself) are great. Have you driven one? They remove the slop of the torque converter, thereby providing both better mileage and acceleration--yet still provide the driver who prefers an automatic a "D" position to set and forget.

Scooter and akirby say it best...these things are all about perception and luxury, not about rationality. A lot of people saw no need for a 4 speed when 3 speeds ruled. Maybe there was no need.

But the competition marches on. Transmissions are changing very rapidly. With CVTs of various types, DSGs, adaptables, 5, 6, 7 and even 8 speeds coming, plus the 5 and 6 speed manuals, it's a great day for choice.

snakeweasel

Again, the double clutch manuals that shift by computer (unless you choose to move through the gears yourself) are great.

Yep until the break and you have to shell out massive amounts of cash to fix them.

Kirstie_H

OK, this transmission conversation has gotten WAY boring to most of those likely to be interested in the MKX, and more importantly, to me :sick:

Let's move on to features that will probably or definitely be on this new vehicle, OK? There's a lovely little manual transmission discussion on Auto News, or you can create a special one if that doesn't suit you.

lateralg

I started this topic stating my belief that the manumatic shift control is an important marketing feature.

It seems that Cadillac agrees with me. Their ad on pg. 42 of November R&T magazine has seven lines of text accompanying a two-page photo of the STS. The second line of text is:

"5-speed automatic with Driver Shift Control"