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Comments
The "Lincoln"/Ford share doors, side and quarter windows, rear quarter sheetmetal, have differently styled taillights in the same exact same fender opening and the vehicles side profile is identical except for trim differences.
Most people also don't recognize that the Aviator/Explorer/Mountaineer shared doors and other panels.
The buying public either isn't that savvy or (more likely) simply doesn't care.
Take a look at Ford's market share and profits, We can see that you got that one wrong.
Your level of contempt for car buyers explains why the US based car companies are deservedly getting killed and their market share has plummeted.
Roger Smith would be proud.
Rather than looking down on the public and thinking they are as dumb as you have convinced yourself they are and putting so much energy into excuse making, they should do like the successful makers do and focus on making excellent cars that intelligent buyers want to buy.
Crazy idea, huh?
I do sincerely want to congradulate you on your new ride. The photo presents the X beautifully. It is a nice looking vehicle, especially the rear end. The front end, IMHO, is completely another story looking more like an AMC Spirit than the intended 60s Continental. But perfection is unachievable on this planet.
You will probably be happy with the car as Lincolns IME are pretty reliable, comnfortable vehicles. The new 3.5L engine sounds like a winner too. I wish you great luck with it.
I will finish by editorializing that I don't really think the X is worth the price they put on it, especially with the Edge being so much cheaper and GM CUVs with seating for 3 more people getting better gas mileage being avaiable. Also, the interior of the X, especially the door panels, is pretty low rent. But each to his own. When I bought my 04 Navigator, there were plenty of negatives to be said about that car as well. And they get louder as gas approaches $4/gallon. Oy.
"The vast majority of data indicates that the temperature has increased, and I believe the correlation and the analysis says that is mainly because of the greenhouse gases keeping the heat in. You can just plot it with the Industrial Revolution and the use of all of our resources," he said.
Not only is this unprovable, it is most likely completely untrue. Note the word "believe" usually reserved for religious discussions, which global warming has become to many. Yet AM for whatever reason is embracing the biggest enemies of the automobile. HiPo Fords in the future? THis does not bode well. Twin turbo Lincoln? Not if CO2 comes out the back. This is a sad day for Ford. But just one of many over the last few years.
Lastly, I seriously hope that AM will be practicing what he preaches. Fields should immediately lower his carbon footprint and move to inner city Detroit. And they all had better listen to the great environmentalist and climatologist, Sheryl Crow and use ONLY ONE SQUARE of paper next time they visit the cr_pper there in Dearborn. I dont know tho, with as much BS as AM is generating, a whole roll may not do the job.
Mark.
If Ford's approach is so great, then I would think they'd be selling far more vehicles, and making more money than their foolish competitors who spend money uselessly on trying to differentiate their products.
OK, arrange such a comparison. I would like to see the data.
You have also said before hardly anyone realizes the Explorer and Mountaineer are the exact same vehicle with some superficial trim variations front and rear. Do you just pull this stuff out of a dark hole in your nether parts, or does it come to you in a dream?
Even Ford knows they must better differentiate their products among divisions. ESPECIALLY between Fords and Lincolns. The next generation of Ford - Lincoln twins will not share sheet metal like they do now. You already know this, as you are better informed than most on these matters.
Yeah, green sells. See Toyota, Honda. But Bill Ford and now Mulally do basically nothing but TALK green. Their vehicles get worse mpg than others, pound for pound.
So what you and scootertrash seem to be saying is that if you took the MKX and gave it unique doors and greenhouse that it would (just due to that change alone) significantly increase sales?
The competition does it because that's what their designers decided to do and nobody stopped them. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that if you can afford it. I'm saying that as a cost cutting measure it's a very, very minor difference that has virtually no impact on sales.
It's the front and rear and interior styling and features that people look at - not the doors. That's all I'm saying.
"The competition" differentiates it's different vehicles because it shows respect for the buyer and the products.
The reason they can afford to do it is they focus on the cars. You don't see the "successful" car companies buying all kinds of unrelated garbage like Land Rover and Jaguar, Greenleaf or Visteon or "Think!", instead they use their money to build really good Hondas and Toyotas.
The US automakers continue to get their butts kicked because they let accountants and marketers dictate product rather than designers and engineers.
Sadly, they are getting exactly what they deserve.
Hopefully they will fire all of the apologists and excuse makers and focus on the cars people want before it's too late.
Meanwhile, don't drink the kool-aid in the cafeteria.
Saying the only reason successful car makers differentiate their different products is because the designers have gone rogue and they weren't stopped really streches the limits of credibility.
Frankly, it's just absurd to lecture on Ford's wisdom in pinching pennies right where it shows and not making their products look different or new as having "a very,very minor difference that has virtually no impact on sales"
That attitude could cut one's marketshare in half if you're not careful. Oh yeah, that already happened.
The only part we disagree on is whether sharing doors and rooflines with the Edge hurts the MKX.
I think having the same drivetrain and some interior switches and electronics hurts the MKX far, far more than having the same doors.
You can't. Nor can I prove otherwise. Move on.
Because unlike anyone who works in the US auto industry, I think the general public is smart enough to recognize when something is pretending to be something it's not.
They might not say "that's the same quarter panel" when comparing two vehicles but they know sameness when they see it--especially luxury buyers. Maybe that's why Ford's marketing seems aimed at unsophisticated luxury buyers who are more impressed with chrome than substance.
They know there's a reason a 2007 Navigator doesn't look fresh but they might not be able to say "that's because it's a freshened up 1997 Expedition"
Respect the customers and build vehicles that people want and then they can focus on cars, not endless excuses and apologies.
That disregard for people's perceptions is one of the reasons Ford is in trouble, and Mercury is less than an also ran in this market. That and Ford's "redesigns" that use the same body panels over and over again for several generations. Doesn't MATTER if people don't immediately identify exactly what is the same. The product won't be perceived as fresh as teh competition, especially after more and more people have a chance to see the new and old parked together at Walmart--or an MKX and an Edge parked in line on a street. It sinks in one way or the other.
Yes, this is pointless, like your "99 out of 100 statements." I'm starting to think you may have been one of the Ford employees who argued for saving pennies through recycling the same bodies. Move on yourself.
I disagree that sharing body panels (assuming the front, rear and interiors are different) significantly impacts sales or public perception.
When I see a ES350 on the road I have to look really hard to tell if it's a Lexus or a Camry - doesn't matter if it's front, rear or side view. They all look the same to me. And granted the Edge and MkX do look similar in side profile but from the front or rear it's very obvious that they're different vehicles.
That's my opinion - obviously yours is the opposite. Fine.
Let's take the two most successful car makers in the world, say um... GM and Ford.
We'll have them sell the exact same body shell with different grilles and taillights and try to convince the ignorent public they are different. Then we can take two upstart companies and have them sell their cars under separate divisions too, but they will have their siblings share no body panels, making their different cars actually different from each other.
Then after a few years, we can see what plan proves to be more successful.
Oh yeah, that experiment has already been tried.
So an ES 300 and Camry which share no exterior body panels "all look the same" and the absolutely identical Edge/MKX "look similar but it's obvious they are different"
I sincerely hope those opinions are yours alone because if anyone in Dearborn thinks like that, they are finished.
How I feel about the car is influenced mainly about whether I like its styling, inside & out, how it handles and performs, quietness, transmission smoothness, its comfort, and the image it projects.
I frankly don't give a damn about component sharing. If I did, I wouldn't have purchased a 2001 Lexus GS 430 because it had the same cheap wiper control stalk as the lowest-priced Toyota.
BTW, I have never once confused a Camry with an ES300 from any angle. Although photographs reveal the similar styling genre used by both, I have never in the metal confused one for the other, even on split second glance. Maybe because I am detail-oriented, as well as cognizant of the holistic "look" of the thing. Who knows?
But this whole thing started with my admission that I DID momentarily think a passing Edge was an MKX. And that took me aback, given that ever since I was a little kid I have been able to tell makes and models and even years (less possible now with so little annual change on most models) at a glance.
I disagree that sharing body panels (assuming the front, rear and interiors are different) significantly impacts sales or public perception.
It remains possible that you are right. However, since Ford has used this formula (change front, rear and interior on the same body) almost exclusively in the past 10 years in their redesigns, their market share has fallen precipitiously. So I believe that sales are affected, if for no other reason than Ford styling becomes more and more stale through this method of updating.
I agree that it's better if they don't share body panels.
So why DO you think different models should have different sheet metal, if it doesn't affect sales or perceptions?
So you and Scootertrash will stop complaining.....
Actually, the answer is simple - it allows the designers more creative freedom which could lead to a better design.
So I'm all in favor of better designs. I'm not in favor of making something different just for the sake of being different.
If you look at the MKX stand-alone - do the doors and roofline bother you? If the Edge didn't exist would they be ok? Or is it just the fact that you know they're shared that bothers you?
What matters to me is what lateralg said - the overall vehicle design, styling and function.
I think what you two are alluding to is that the end result of forcing commonalities is that the final design is compromised - but that's not what you're saying.
Mark
That is exactly what I am saying. The MKX design was compromised by having to use the entire Edge body, not just the mount points. The Aviator concept looked like a real Lincoln, not a Ford. And sure, I would be less bothered if the Edge didn't exist. Then Lincoln would have the exclusive look that a car of that class deserves.
As it is, you have an Edge with a slightly upmarket interior, a different grill, and a plastic tail light bar connecting the exact two taillight holes that the Edge has. The Ford Explorer Limited, for example, was offered for years with a different grill, a classier interior and some exclusive options, but they didn't try to call it a Lincoln. I don't think it is too much to expect that a Lincoln, though built on the same chassis and using many of the same components, should be more than just a special trim level of a Ford model.
Giving the car its own styling is one way to make it more than a badge engineered deal. It's own engine (or tuning the same engine to get a bit more power) and/or an exclusive transmission option are other ways.
The MKX will sell ok regardless. But wouldn't it be nice if it took over the luxury CUV market? Lincoln is capable of doing that, if fewer compromises are forced on what is supposed to be Ford's luxury division.
BTW, I think the much maligned grill is the best part of the MKX. Though it reminds some people of an AMC Spirit, there is Lincoln DNA in it. Unfortunately, no other Lincoln shares the look, and it looks as if Lincoln is about to introduce a whole new grill theme. At least this time, it sounds like the plan is to eventually take it across the line, like most other makes do to better identify and link their various models.
So someone at Ford thought, well geez, why don't we just graft the Aviator grill onto the Edge? We'll save a ton of money and who will know the difference?
Except they fattened up and "AMC Spirit-ized" the grill to match it up with the chunkier Edge fenders, and they deleted the more Lincoln-style roofline and rear doors...not to mention eliminating the iconic Lincoln front to back chrome strip. But to each his or her own. I'll buy Lincoln again when they start looking more like their concepts (all of which have been rather interesting in the past five years) and less like their Ford brethren.
This is about as childish as I've seen.
is pzev green?
Yup. I see they use the same doors...even though they don't even use the same windshield, much less anything else.
If ya can't beat'em, join 'em!!!
:P
Imagine the cost for unique body parts on a truck that only sells 20,000 units per year, ala MKX vs. the cost if those body parts are the same as a vehicle that sells over 100,000 units per year and will have non OEM availablity?
Yes this means your insurance premium should be lower on an MKX compared to a RX350. Lower cost of ownership is part of the story/appeal of the MKX vs the RX350
Mark.
Mark- While you make a good point about repair costs, I can't imagine that: "When you break it will be cheap to fix 'cuz it's really just a Ford" is a very good luxury car sales pitch.
But if you do, you definately get car salesman bonus points for frankness!
Given the obvious similarities, I don't even know quite why that is. But obviously, both Honda and Toyota know how to style corporate siblings in a way that their road presence is different.
My sense is using different sheetmetal is at least part of it. I can't imagine, like akirby, that side styling has no bearing on it. It is the largest part of the car, and the side most people approach most often to get in and out.
Saying it is not really important to perception suggests that if you did something like graft a Navigator front clip and tail lights on an Escalade, then people would think the Navigator and the grafted Escalade were now the same vehicle. I find that hard to believe, but I suppose it could happen. I know everyone does not see the world as I do.
But bottom line, other manufacturers now more or less do a better job of sibling model differentiation than Ford does. How important is it? Well maybe not at all for a badge engineered brand like Mercury (though Mercury seems to be the last such brand in the US). However, Lincoln must be more special than that and be so recognized on the world stage. And I suspect that the next generation of Edge/MKX will not look alike as tehey do now.