Six years and it's junk? If you'll put $10,000 on that belief, I'll let you look at my 2002 Mercury Mountaineer Premier-- then I'll take your money. The love of offshore tin has your brain spinning! Now in my case, I'm sort of an automotive omnivore, but the flavor of American Iron satiates me a bit better than the rest.
I'm wondering if you, like me, would refuse to fall into the trap of overpaying for used foreign cars. One reason I do not sell/trade the Mountaineer is the price you are so correct about! And I could never be forced to buy a used Civic at a "going price." That's for people who don't know any better!
By the way, I bought the Mountaineer when it was 5 months old and had 5000 miles on it. I got just about $11,000 off the price the first owner saw on the window sticker. It has been a true bargain for me over the last 6 years. :shades: It listed for 38K, and I paid 27K.
He's onto a good point about resale value which is the truer value of a product and a reflection on its quality and value.
Let's look at the current value of a 2 year old 2006 Honda Civic vs. name any Big 3 car or truck of your choice from 2006.
Which one is holding up it's value better? The problem is the Big 3 overprice their junk. Now... $4K for a brand new fully loaded Dodge Caliber, now your talking!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I would NEVER fall into the foreign used car trap.
Great price! Used Detroit iron is the way to go...wait for the depreciation hit and then buy it.
I bought a new 2003 Lincoln LS (sticker was $38K) for $30K, back in 2004 as a leftover. I do not own the car anymore but that year is worth about $11K now in great condition.
My wifes Yukon is worth more if we keep it than selling/replacing it.
If you're the type of person who likes to drive a new car, and also likes to trade every few years, you're probably going to be better off with a Japanese import.
However, if you're the type to buy a new car and hold onto it until it's ready to fall apart, it probably doesn't matter. My 2000 Intrepid, bought new, probably isn't worth more than $900-1000, but honestly, I couldn't see how a 2000 Accord in similar condition (141K miles, broken a/c, mis-matched tires, a few dings, scratches and scrapes here and there) could be worth much more.
If you're the type to buy young, low-mileage used cars, domestics probably are the way to go BECAUSE of the depreciation. Honestly, if used imports hold their value so well, making them expensive as used cars, I don't see what the point is. Why buy a used 2-3 year old Civic, Accord, or whatever when you can buy a brand-new one for not much more?
But in the end, just buy what you truly like. It's not worth getting a car that you're going to positively hate, just because it holds its resale value better.
My latest vehicle buy was just a few months ago. I got a reasonable deal trading in a 2004 Jeep GC just before the BIG drop in SUV sales rates. I got a sweet little 2009 Pontiac Vibe AWD 2.4liter. The last time I looked, the dealer still had my Jeep on the used lot, some 2.5 months post trade-in. Yeah, I know. The Vibe is really a disguised Toyota! Like I said, I'm an omnivore-- but with a tight wallet.
But in the end, just buy what you truly like. It's not worth getting a car that you're going to positively hate, just because it holds its resale value better.
I keep telling my beautiful wife that very same thing but she won't let me get that F-430!
talk about tin can, have you knock on the fender of your vibe? For the price you paid for the vibe (around $20k) you could've gotten a 2 yr old 9-3 with spare change for a nice set of snow tires. That definitely beats falling asleep while driving the vibe!
Running a search within 100 miles of my zip code for all Honda Accords, the average value on AutoTrader comes out to $8,977. Most probably average around 100K miles, rather than 141K miles like the Interpid said to be worth $1,000 from the year 2000.
I can state why I'd pay the extra for the Honda.
1) I won't get stranded everywhere 2) The car is probably only at 50% of it's useful and reliable life 3) Repair costs will be minimal 4) good gas mileage 5) I'll be able to resell it in 2 years and 30K miles later for most of the price i originally paid.
Why I woulnd't pay anything for a Dodge over 100K:
1) It could die at any moment. 2) after a few years, it'll cost more than the Honda did. 3) It won't get as good of gas mileage. 4) I won't be able to sell it a few years down the road
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"(141K miles, broken a/c, mis-matched tires, a few dings, scratches and scrapes here and there) could be worth much more."
If we consider this car to be in "FAIR" condition, according to KBB.com the Intrepid's private party value is $2950. The Accord???? $4050.
Now according to KBB, "fair" is dings and scratches and MINOR mechanical.
IF we consider hypothetically, it needs an A/c compressor, autozone.com lists A/C compressors for the Dodge at between $280 and $420, and the Honda is between $260 and $610. Essentially a wash.
Labor should be the same.
Same goes for the body work.
BTW, prices are for an Intrepid ES w/ 2.7 V-6 and an Accord EX 4 cyl all the way around.
If we consider this car to be in "FAIR" condition, according to KBB.com the Intrepid's private party value is $2950. The Accord???? $4050.
Wow, I was actually shocked that the Intrepid was that high! Now, my Intrepid is just a base model, not an ES, but it has a CD changer. I priced it on KBB and it still came out close, at $2930.
Honestly though, ANY car that you buy with 141K miles on it is like a toss of the dice. You could hit the jackpot or you could crap out. I actually trust my Intrepid to last a few more years at least, because I bought the car new and I know how it's been cared for and maintained. But if I was in the market for a used car, I don't think I'd trust any modern car with 141K on it. Now if it was some simple, cheap-to-fix domestic big 'un from the 70's or 80's, I'd actually trust one of them more. They tend to nickel and dime you to death, rather than McKinley and Cleveland you to death!
A few years back, a guy at work wanted to buy a 1992 Accord station wagon. This was around 2002-2003, I guess. Car had about 200K miles on it. The seller emailed my coworker an Excel spreadsheet that had all the repairs/maintenance in it. I think he bought it at 120K, so he put another 80K on it. I still have that spreadsheet somewhere. It was a real eye opener. I'll have to dig it up sometime, if anyone's interested to see it. I remember the guy had all the work done at the dealer, which made the prices higher, but it really made me think that if it takes this kind of money to keep an Accord running to 200K, just go buy a Dodge Dart and put a new ballast resistor or some other 50 cent part in it every once in awhile!
>spreadsheet somewhere. It was a real eye opener. I'll have to dig it up sometime, if anyone's interested to see it. I remember the guy had all the work done at the dealer, which made the prices higher, but it really made me think that if it takes this kind of money to keep an Accord running to 200K,
I'd be interested. Some always act like they go to 300K mi with no maintenance and no repairs. I think the owners have amnesia.
1993 Honda Accord EX 5spd w/160k sold for $2200 07/07 in Michigan (new in 1993 ~16.5k). The car spent 10 years in California and had no rust. At all. During that span, the power antenna had been replaced 3x, each power window had failed once and the driver switch pack once, the passenger side rear door handle failed, the distributor was replaced twice, the radiator was replaced twice, the main relay was replaced (typical 10 yr old Honda) and every bulb was replaced one at a time (also typical 10 yr old Honda). The starter and ignition switch were also replaced. This was at or before its 10th birthday. It is our family's leader for leaving people stranded (narrowly beating out a K-car wagon). It also required a repaint as it pulled a Chrylser and the clear coat pealed off.
After the 10yr mark was the 2nd distributor, clutch cylinder, brake cylinder, new upper and lower control arms, ball joints and tie rods, as well as shocks. Oh and sway bar end links. It also blew out an oil seal in somewhat spectacular and catastrophic fashion.
So that is what it took to get it to 160k or so.
Whats worse is I replaced it with a brand new 2007 Honda Accord EX with very poorly finished dash and rear power window motors that sound like they are about to fail.
In contrast, my '96 Contour SE MTX that was autocrossed or at a track event almost every weekend did fine to 150k, needing 2 water pumps (same as the Honda, only they consider it maintenance), brakes and wheel bearings (hmm maybe that track and autocross thing). Stupid stuff that broke on the Contour was limited to the air flapper vent and the fan speed control.
The Subaru has also been pretty much flawless, and I don't think my folk's 10 year old Sienna has had anything other than scheduled maintenance. I am not saying Japanese cars are bad or have reliability issues, I am just saying in my experience, neither do domestics.
I'd be interested. Some always act like they go to 300K mi with no maintenance and no repairs. I think the owners have amnesia.
I'll look around for it, and if I find it I'll email it to ya. I remember at the time I saw it, I tried to compare it to my '68 Dart, and figured the Accord cost something like 3x as much as my Dart to keep running. However, that wasn't totally fair, as a lot of crap that would go bad on the Dart, I could just fix myself, plus there was stuff that would fail on a '93 Accord that didn't even exist on a '68 Dart!
Also, I think how you drive a car has a big effect on how long it lasts. My Mom & stepdad have a 1999 Altima that has at least 250K miles on it by now. Other than blowing a tranny prematurely at 36K, it's been pretty reliable and hasn't needed much other than regular maintenance stuff. But that's because they drive it like 130 miles per day, mostly highway. The 1986 Monte Carlo the used to have was also a reliable car. Hell, even their 1984 Tempo made it to 160k miles and was fairly reliable. So if a Tempo, of all cars, can get up there, that tells you it's driving habits moreso than whose name is plastered on the car.
Now, I dunno how CR rates a 2000 Intrepid. It may be too old to even be rated anymore. But for the most part, when it was newer, I think it scored average for most part, to slightly better. Anyway, the car's been good enough over the years that I wouldn't be afraid of buying a new domestic. Only reason I wouldn't buy a new Mopar is that I don't like the Avenger/Sebring, and while the 300/Charger is okay, I think I'd want something a bit more economical.
I was thinking about a 4-cyl Altima. But I drove an '08 Malibu 4-cyl at the GM show in Carlisle, PA, and was pretty impressed. I was worried that the 'Bu's 4-cyl would be crude and buzzy, but it seemed pretty smooth and quiet. I think I still like the Altima better. But I'd at least give the Malibu, or the Aura, a chance. And if I chose the Altima, it wouldn't mean that the GM cars were crap. More likely, it would be that while they're both decent cars, I just happened to like the Altima better.
I actually WANT to like the Ford Fusion. But the fact that it's built in Mexico and only has like 31% domestic content just doesn't quite set well with me.
As I've said many times in here in one topic or another my 00 Accord at 157K has had no such repair issues mentioned above.
Now people who say they don't spend on repair or maintenance I'd doubt. They take maintenance and if you follow the book religiously, which I did to at least 100K, it's an expense you'll notice but I still would not think twice about taking it across the country. Well, maybe right now I would but that's because the wife tells me to get the AC checked.
The only actual repair I can remember was replacing an O2 sensor a few years back. Sorry - no spread sheet.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
They take maintenance and if you follow the book religiously, which I did to at least 100K, it's an expense you'll notice but I still would not think twice about taking it across the country. Well, maybe right now I would but that's because the wife tells me to get the AC checked.
Now that I think about it, my uncle would take his '03 Corolla in for its 30/60/90K mile servicings, although in his case I think it was more like 42K/70K/102K. I dunno how he's maintained it after that, though. In 2007, it needed a new catastrophic converter and a new water pump. But both of those repairs came in at over 140K miles, so I don't hold them against Toyota...that's just high mileage creeping in. I think the converter was about $585 (dealer wanted about $1200!), and the water pump was around $500 I think.
I don't think my uncle is so religious about those 30K servicings these days, though. But whenever he has to take the car in for servicing, he'd always get me to help him drop it off and pick it back up. I can't remember the last time I've had to do that though, so I guess the thing's been running okay.
The book has you replace the timing belt at 105K (long way from the 60K of my 80). Now anytime I've replaced a timing belt they (the dealer back then) would always automatically replace the water pump because they already had everything apart and essentially you are just paying for the part at that point. This time I had a private mechanic do it and he said they just inspect the water pump and mine looked fine so they left it there. 52K later it's still there.
Heck, if it died at this point I'd have them put another timing belt on it...
If I squeeze two more years out of the thing I'll be happy as a clam.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
You wouldn't have about 20-30 of those Wilson bills sitting around taking up space, do you???...I need some filler for my wallet for when my wife empties it...
Now you do know that you'll never see one of those other than the nice picture. They only use anything over $100 to move money between Federal Reserve Banks. Nice to think about though...
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I'll bet there are more different portraits on $3 bills than any denomination.
I could never figure out why in the US $2 and dollar coins never go anywhere. In Canada they use them all the time - except, of course, now they have a $2 coin.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
IIRC, Canada no longer prints a $1 bill. Secondly, I don't think people realize that the $1 coin can be used in a vending machine, because it won't accept halves. I'll bet most people think the biggest coin it can handle is the quarter. How frustrating is it that you sometimes have to go through 3 or 4 bills to find one that works??? It will take 35 YEARS of continuous use for a dollar coin to wear to the point that it needs to be replaced, and yet I'd bet the vending machine would still accept it.
Right you are. Canada doesn't have one or two dollar bills anymore. Both are coins. Really useful in vending machines and such.
The vending industry would just love to have a dollar coin that is accepted. The only way that is going to happen is to stop printing the bills. The coins would catch on in a hurry then.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I'd rather swipe a card, even for a buck purchase, than carry cash around plus coins weigh too much. We're trying to save weight so our American cars will save more gas, right?
The problem is that even your bad Honda looks good compared to a competitive American products sold at the time. The 1993 Taurus, for example, was notorious for blown head gaskets on the 3.8 V-6, faulty transmissions guaranteed to grenade before 60,000 miles, faulty motor mounts, defective air conditioning compressors and poor quality paint. The original Chrysler Concorde/LHS and Dodge Intrepid were just as bad. The GM entries were the best of the domestics (particularly in the drivetrain department, which meant that people were more likely to keep the car running even when other problems surfaced).
Many of those Fords and Chryslers didn't make it to 100,000 miles, let alone 160,000.
The bottom line is that since that time, the domestics have lost market share, while Honda and Toyota have gained it. Sorry, but I can't believe that all of those people ignored problems, or were completely snookered by Consumer Reports, or were pressured to buy foreign by "import snob" friends and neighbors.
If anything, my experience has been that DOMESTIC owners ignore problems, or consider them "no big deal" (because usually they haven't owned anything BUT a domestic), while Honda and Toyota owners go ballistic if a serious problem occurs, because they bought into the hype and expected the car to be perfect.
I make it a point to ask mechanics - both the independent ones, and those who work for dealerships - which cars are the most reliable. And the answer is invariably the same - Honda and Toyota. In the early 2000s I asked this question of a mechanic who worked at a dealership group that sold Pontiacs, Buicks and Toyotas, and he said there was no comparison in quality and reliability regarding the GM products and Toyotas.
Fortunately, within the last 2-3 years, the responses I've been getting have been much more positive for the domestics. All mechanics agree that GM and Ford (in particular) have improved dramatically since 2000. (For Ford, putting the crappy 3.8 V6 and the front-wheel-drive transmission that went with it out to pasture helped enormously). Chrysler is still a question mark (for which I completely blame the Germans).
They also say that Ford and GM products are more reliable than European vehicles.
I will say that our 2005 Focus SE sedan has been reliable. It has 68,000 miles on the odometer, and the only problems so far have been a broker wiper motor and a broken CD player. The former, however, may not be Ford's fault, as my wife rear-ended another car, and the wiper motor could have been damaged in that accident. So, there may be hope for Ford.
But before the Focus, my wife had a 2000 Cavalier, and the air conditioning compressor gave up the ghost at 55,000 miles (as it did on the Cavaliers of other people we know), and the engine died completely at 113,000 miles. So she isn't in the mood for another GM car anytime soon.
One problem is that the domestics are still too slow to correct recurring faults. The Ford head-gasket problem and faulty front-wheel-drive transmissions went on for far too long.
GM's problems with its intake manifold gaskets on certain V-6s have been happening for years now, and have affected EVERY person I know who has a car with the 3.1 or 3.8 V-6. My parent's 1999 Park Avenue experienced engine failure because of this (ironically, the car was pretty reliable before this), and my mother-in-law's 2000 Malibu was already showing symptoms of this problem when she traded it with less than 100,000 miles on the odometer.
Same with the faulty steering shafts on many GM products - I first heard of this with the 1998 Olds Intrigue, and the same clunking and grinding are now happening on my mother-in-law's 2005 Malibu with less than 45,000 miles on the odometer!
I understand that cars are complicated, and problems can crop up in real-world use that didn't show up in the product-testing phase. But the domestics must do a better job of stepping up to the plate when problems do occur, and must move faster to correct them. It's unacceptable that GM cars are STILL showing trouble with their steering systems a decade after the Intrigue debuted!
Heck, I'd rather have my 1988 Buick Park Avenue versus a new Civic.
I kind of take offense to somebody saying buyers of domestic vehicles are impoverished and poorly educated. Heck, I can buy a Lexus LS460 or a Mercedes S-Class if I so desired, but I instead chose a Cadillac DTS Performance. I spent way less and got a prettier car and am extremely happy with it.
But in the end, just buy what you truly like. It's not worth getting a car that you're going to positively hate, just because it holds its resale value better.
Amen, brother! That's EXACTLY what I've been saying for years on these forums. Buying a car you don't like just because it has better resale value is still throwing money away in my book!
1) I won't get stranded everywhere - especially some of the seedy neighborhoods in which I'd fear having a breakdown.
2) The car is probably only at 50% of it's useful and reliable life.
3) Repair costs ARE minimal.
4) Great gas mileage.
5) I can't seem to kill it.
Sheesh. What the heck is everybody so worried about being "stranded" by an automobile? The last time that happened to me was over 22 years ago and it was because I installed the fuel filter backwards on a 1968 Buick. Fortunately, I was able to get a hold of my Dad and he brought some tools so we could reinstall it properly.
Tough times for the Class car, sales have swooned and they are laying off 800 temporary class employees..We had been trained to believe the Japanese were highly skilled master craftsmen/women and loyality was their big concern--just one happy family cranking out perfection..Maybe they could use a dose of the UAW..
The UAW gets paid when not working---that won't do...
If you foreign car fans really cared, you should hurry to your Lexus dealer and help out the emploment picture on the island..Buy one..after all, the foreign content of a Lexus is 100% Asian.. Prius is 100% Asian..When they start building the Prius in Mississippi around 2010 it will only be 85% Asian content..That little bit of domestic content of 15% should put America back to work..
Canada loves coins for one gets the feeling of richness with a pocketful..They have universal health care to cherish..I prefer paper money and BC/BS..
lemko: I kind of take offense to somebody saying buyers of domestic vehicles are impoverished and poorly educated.
Please don't be offended. That is not what I said.
Another poster suggested that people don't buy domestic cars because they can't afford them. This is not true. Studies have consistently shown that buyers of most foreign marques have higher incomes and more education attainment levels than buyers of domestic marques. These are facts, and can't be denied.
Now, some of the lower education levels may be because the domestics own the pickup and van trade, and many people who buy those vehicles need them for work. A plumber or a carpenter needs a pickup, and an electrician needs a big van, and GM and Ford still set the standard in these classes. The electrician I know drives a box truck based on the Ford Econoline chassis. He isn't about to buy a Honda Element for his business. It isn't big enough or sturdy enough to handle the abuse.
But most plumbers and carpenters haven't pursued a degree beyond high school, because their jobs don't require one. That doesn't mean that they are uneducated or stupid. It does mean that in any ownership profile, they will lower the education attainment level for buyers of that particular domestic marque as compared to buyers of selected foreign ones.
But compare, say, a Cobalt to a Corolla. Both vehicles are aimed at the same price point, and no one is going to seriously suggest that a Cobalt will serve better than a Corolla for a particular job - unless the buyer works for a union or one of the domestic automakers. And that's based more on job security (not angering the boss) than on the actual capabilities of each car. These cars are chosen based on buyer preference. Like or not, across the lineup, Toyota passenger cars attract people with higher income and more education than Chevrolet passenger cars do.
The income gap is real, and is partially the result of the desperate measures the domestics have taken to prop up sales. GM, Ford and Chrysler have been MUCH more generous with their low-interest financing and lease deals to maintain sales. It's already backfiring on them, as it did for Mitsubishi.
Well, when they charge me $0.10/gal to use plastic at most NJ pumps, I carry cash
Many stations do that in CA also. ARCO usually the cheapest will allow an ATM and they charge 50 cents to use it. Someone here turned me onto the Shell 5% discount card. I use that and now Costco has an AMEX card that gives 3% on gas which is already the cheapest in town. Paid $3.75 per gallon with the Costco discount last Friday.
I agree with you. I spend the extra money for perceived value as I assume everyone else does. It doesn't make sense for you to buy a Merc or Lex unless they deliver the value you want.
It took one test drive in my BMW to realize the value I wanted could not be delivered by anything US except partly by a Corvette. Every other US car would smack the wall on turns easily handled by a 3-series.
are only good for vending machines, which I do not use...carrying 10 one dollar coins would wear a hole in my pocket quickly and weigh it down, too...10 one dollar bills do not do that...just accept the fact that dollar bills wear out and need replacement...just because the coins have a 35 year life means nothing in daily use...ever noticed how beaten up most 10 dollar bills are???
If you eliminate anything, get rid of the penny, and simply round up or round down every sale from here...keep nickels, dimes and quarters...dump half dollar and dollar coins...
With my run flat tires, I went 100 miles on zero pressure. You can't get stranded with this car!
I can't remember when I was last stranded but for the last 5 cars I put less than 100K on them so I could get dome value from a sale since all US metal.
My wife was stranded by her Yukon's failed power steering pump on a busy intersection. Tow truck, Police, embarrassment. Not to mention the Hazardous spill from the PS fluid all over the street!
BTW, OnStar estimated 1 hour for a tow...the Police got one in 5 minutes because she was blocking the main entrance to the MALL!!!! Can't have consumer spending halted due to a failed GM product, now could we?
The electrician I know drives a box truck based on the Ford Econoline chassis. He isn't about to buy a Honda Element for his business. It isn't big enough or sturdy enough to handle the abuse.
Interesting choice. I saw an Element this morning with a full body wrap for some HVAC company. To be honest, 90% of the work an electrician, plumber, etc. does in the course of a day could be handled by an Element just fine, but they've been conditioned to buy oversized gas-chugging domestic boxes.
She couldn't steer the truck out of the entrance? I don't know what new vehicles are like, but I've driven jalopies with failed power steering pumps and it didn't prevent me from steering the vehicles.It was like turning a big rig when parking or at slow speeds, but almost unnoticeable when the car was moving at highway speeds.
Did the pump itself fail or was it the high pressure or return hose? It's quite apparent when a pump is about to fail or is low on fluid as it sounds just like a model airplane.
Comments
Sorry!
Regards,
OW
By the way, I bought the Mountaineer when it was 5 months old and had 5000 miles on it. I got just about $11,000 off the price the first owner saw on the window sticker. It has been a true bargain for me over the last 6 years. :shades:
It listed for 38K, and I paid 27K.
Let's look at the current value of a 2 year old 2006 Honda Civic vs. name any Big 3 car or truck of your choice from 2006.
Which one is holding up it's value better? The problem is the Big 3 overprice their junk. Now... $4K for a brand new fully loaded Dodge Caliber, now your talking!
Great price! Used Detroit iron is the way to go...wait for the depreciation hit and then buy it.
I bought a new 2003 Lincoln LS (sticker was $38K) for $30K, back in 2004 as a leftover. I do not own the car anymore but that year is worth about $11K now in great condition.
My wifes Yukon is worth more if we keep it than selling/replacing it.
Regards,
OW
However, if you're the type to buy a new car and hold onto it until it's ready to fall apart, it probably doesn't matter. My 2000 Intrepid, bought new, probably isn't worth more than $900-1000, but honestly, I couldn't see how a 2000 Accord in similar condition (141K miles, broken a/c, mis-matched tires, a few dings, scratches and scrapes here and there) could be worth much more.
If you're the type to buy young, low-mileage used cars, domestics probably are the way to go BECAUSE of the depreciation. Honestly, if used imports hold their value so well, making them expensive as used cars, I don't see what the point is. Why buy a used 2-3 year old Civic, Accord, or whatever when you can buy a brand-new one for not much more?
But in the end, just buy what you truly like. It's not worth getting a car that you're going to positively hate, just because it holds its resale value better.
I keep telling my beautiful wife that very same thing but she won't let me get that F-430!
Regards,
OW
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I can state why I'd pay the extra for the Honda.
1) I won't get stranded everywhere
2) The car is probably only at 50% of it's useful and reliable life
3) Repair costs will be minimal
4) good gas mileage
5) I'll be able to resell it in 2 years and 30K miles later for most of the price i originally paid.
Why I woulnd't pay anything for a Dodge over 100K:
1) It could die at any moment.
2) after a few years, it'll cost more than the Honda did.
3) It won't get as good of gas mileage.
4) I won't be able to sell it a few years down the road
FIRST, remember his statement:
"(141K miles, broken a/c, mis-matched tires, a few dings, scratches and scrapes here and there) could be worth much more."
If we consider this car to be in "FAIR" condition, according to KBB.com the Intrepid's private party value is $2950.
The Accord???? $4050.
Now according to KBB, "fair" is dings and scratches and MINOR mechanical.
IF we consider hypothetically, it needs an A/c compressor, autozone.com lists A/C compressors for the Dodge at between $280 and $420, and the Honda is between $260 and $610. Essentially a wash.
Labor should be the same.
Same goes for the body work.
BTW, prices are for an Intrepid ES w/ 2.7 V-6 and an Accord EX 4 cyl all the way around.
I won't dispute anything for future performance.
The Accord???? $4050.
Wow, I was actually shocked that the Intrepid was that high! Now, my Intrepid is just a base model, not an ES, but it has a CD changer. I priced it on KBB and it still came out close, at $2930.
Honestly though, ANY car that you buy with 141K miles on it is like a toss of the dice. You could hit the jackpot or you could crap out. I actually trust my Intrepid to last a few more years at least, because I bought the car new and I know how it's been cared for and maintained. But if I was in the market for a used car, I don't think I'd trust any modern car with 141K on it. Now if it was some simple, cheap-to-fix domestic big 'un from the 70's or 80's, I'd actually trust one of them more. They tend to nickel and dime you to death, rather than McKinley and Cleveland you to death!
A few years back, a guy at work wanted to buy a 1992 Accord station wagon. This was around 2002-2003, I guess. Car had about 200K miles on it. The seller emailed my coworker an Excel spreadsheet that had all the repairs/maintenance in it. I think he bought it at 120K, so he put another 80K on it. I still have that spreadsheet somewhere. It was a real eye opener. I'll have to dig it up sometime, if anyone's interested to see it. I remember the guy had all the work done at the dealer, which made the prices higher, but it really made me think that if it takes this kind of money to keep an Accord running to 200K, just go buy a Dodge Dart and put a new ballast resistor or some other 50 cent part in it every once in awhile!
I'd be interested. Some always act like they go to 300K mi with no maintenance and no repairs. I think the owners have amnesia.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
During that span, the power antenna had been replaced 3x, each power window had failed once and the driver switch pack once, the passenger side rear door handle failed, the distributor was replaced twice, the radiator was replaced twice, the main relay was replaced (typical 10 yr old Honda) and every bulb was replaced one at a time (also typical 10 yr old Honda). The starter and ignition switch were also replaced. This was at or before its 10th birthday. It is our family's leader for leaving people stranded (narrowly beating out a K-car wagon). It also required a repaint as it pulled a Chrylser and the clear coat pealed off.
After the 10yr mark was the 2nd distributor, clutch cylinder, brake cylinder, new upper and lower control arms, ball joints and tie rods, as well as shocks. Oh and sway bar end links. It also blew out an oil seal in somewhat spectacular and catastrophic fashion.
So that is what it took to get it to 160k or so.
Whats worse is I replaced it with a brand new 2007 Honda Accord EX with very poorly finished dash and rear power window motors that sound like they are about to fail.
In contrast, my '96 Contour SE MTX that was autocrossed or at a track event almost every weekend did fine to 150k, needing 2 water pumps (same as the Honda, only they consider it maintenance), brakes and wheel bearings (hmm maybe that track and autocross thing). Stupid stuff that broke on the Contour was limited to the air flapper vent and the fan speed control.
The Subaru has also been pretty much flawless, and I don't think my folk's 10 year old Sienna has had anything other than scheduled maintenance. I am not saying Japanese cars are bad or have reliability issues, I am just saying in my experience, neither do domestics.
I'll look around for it, and if I find it I'll email it to ya. I remember at the time I saw it, I tried to compare it to my '68 Dart, and figured the Accord cost something like 3x as much as my Dart to keep running. However, that wasn't totally fair, as a lot of crap that would go bad on the Dart, I could just fix myself, plus there was stuff that would fail on a '93 Accord that didn't even exist on a '68 Dart!
Also, I think how you drive a car has a big effect on how long it lasts. My Mom & stepdad have a 1999 Altima that has at least 250K miles on it by now. Other than blowing a tranny prematurely at 36K, it's been pretty reliable and hasn't needed much other than regular maintenance stuff. But that's because they drive it like 130 miles per day, mostly highway. The 1986 Monte Carlo the used to have was also a reliable car. Hell, even their 1984 Tempo made it to 160k miles and was fairly reliable. So if a Tempo, of all cars, can get up there, that tells you it's driving habits moreso than whose name is plastered on the car.
Now, I dunno how CR rates a 2000 Intrepid. It may be too old to even be rated anymore. But for the most part, when it was newer, I think it scored average for most part, to slightly better. Anyway, the car's been good enough over the years that I wouldn't be afraid of buying a new domestic. Only reason I wouldn't buy a new Mopar is that I don't like the Avenger/Sebring, and while the 300/Charger is okay, I think I'd want something a bit more economical.
I was thinking about a 4-cyl Altima. But I drove an '08 Malibu 4-cyl at the GM show in Carlisle, PA, and was pretty impressed. I was worried that the 'Bu's 4-cyl would be crude and buzzy, but it seemed pretty smooth and quiet. I think I still like the Altima better. But I'd at least give the Malibu, or the Aura, a chance. And if I chose the Altima, it wouldn't mean that the GM cars were crap. More likely, it would be that while they're both decent cars, I just happened to like the Altima better.
I actually WANT to like the Ford Fusion. But the fact that it's built in Mexico and only has like 31% domestic content just doesn't quite set well with me.
Now people who say they don't spend on repair or maintenance I'd doubt. They take maintenance and if you follow the book religiously, which I did to at least 100K, it's an expense you'll notice but I still would not think twice about taking it across the country. Well, maybe right now I would but that's because the wife tells me to get the AC checked.
The only actual repair I can remember was replacing an O2 sensor a few years back. Sorry - no spread sheet.
Now that I think about it, my uncle would take his '03 Corolla in for its 30/60/90K mile servicings, although in his case I think it was more like 42K/70K/102K. I dunno how he's maintained it after that, though. In 2007, it needed a new catastrophic converter and a new water pump. But both of those repairs came in at over 140K miles, so I don't hold them against Toyota...that's just high mileage creeping in. I think the converter was about $585 (dealer wanted about $1200!), and the water pump was around $500 I think.
I don't think my uncle is so religious about those 30K servicings these days, though. But whenever he has to take the car in for servicing, he'd always get me to help him drop it off and pick it back up. I can't remember the last time I've had to do that though, so I guess the thing's been running okay.
The book has you replace the timing belt at 105K (long way from the 60K of my 80). Now anytime I've replaced a timing belt they (the dealer back then) would always automatically replace the water pump because they already had everything apart and essentially you are just paying for the part at that point. This time I had a private mechanic do it and he said they just inspect the water pump and mine looked fine so they left it there. 52K later it's still there.
Heck, if it died at this point I'd have them put another timing belt on it...
If I squeeze two more years out of the thing I'll be happy as a clam.
I know that Grant is on a $50 and Franklin is on a $100...
What bills (I assume out of circulation) had McKinley and Cleveland???
And FYI Woodrow Wilson is on a $100K bill.
(I know, I know, that's just WRONG!!!) :P :P :P
I dunno, but I remember years ago, there were some overtly fake $3 bills floating around with Bill Clinton on them.
I'll bet there are more different portraits on $3 bills than any denomination.
I could never figure out why in the US $2 and dollar coins never go anywhere. In Canada they use them all the time - except, of course, now they have a $2 coin.
Regards,
OW
The vending industry would just love to have a dollar coin that is accepted. The only way that is going to happen is to stop printing the bills. The coins would catch on in a hurry then.
Many of those Fords and Chryslers didn't make it to 100,000 miles, let alone 160,000.
The bottom line is that since that time, the domestics have lost market share, while Honda and Toyota have gained it. Sorry, but I can't believe that all of those people ignored problems, or were completely snookered by Consumer Reports, or were pressured to buy foreign by "import snob" friends and neighbors.
If anything, my experience has been that DOMESTIC owners ignore problems, or consider them "no big deal" (because usually they haven't owned anything BUT a domestic), while Honda and Toyota owners go ballistic if a serious problem occurs, because they bought into the hype and expected the car to be perfect.
I make it a point to ask mechanics - both the independent ones, and those who work for dealerships - which cars are the most reliable. And the answer is invariably the same - Honda and Toyota. In the early 2000s I asked this question of a mechanic who worked at a dealership group that sold Pontiacs, Buicks and Toyotas, and he said there was no comparison in quality and reliability regarding the GM products and Toyotas.
Fortunately, within the last 2-3 years, the responses I've been getting have been much more positive for the domestics. All mechanics agree that GM and Ford (in particular) have improved dramatically since 2000. (For Ford, putting the crappy 3.8 V6 and the front-wheel-drive transmission that went with it out to pasture helped enormously). Chrysler is still a question mark (for which I completely blame the Germans).
They also say that Ford and GM products are more reliable than European vehicles.
I will say that our 2005 Focus SE sedan has been reliable. It has 68,000 miles on the odometer, and the only problems so far have been a broker wiper motor and a broken CD player. The former, however, may not be Ford's fault, as my wife rear-ended another car, and the wiper motor could have been damaged in that accident. So, there may be hope for Ford.
But before the Focus, my wife had a 2000 Cavalier, and the air conditioning compressor gave up the ghost at 55,000 miles (as it did on the Cavaliers of other people we know), and the engine died completely at 113,000 miles. So she isn't in the mood for another GM car anytime soon.
One problem is that the domestics are still too slow to correct recurring faults. The Ford head-gasket problem and faulty front-wheel-drive transmissions went on for far too long.
GM's problems with its intake manifold gaskets on certain V-6s have been happening for years now, and have affected EVERY person I know who has a car with the 3.1 or 3.8 V-6. My parent's 1999 Park Avenue experienced engine failure because of this (ironically, the car was pretty reliable before this), and my mother-in-law's 2000 Malibu was already showing symptoms of this problem when she traded it with less than 100,000 miles on the odometer.
Same with the faulty steering shafts on many GM products - I first heard of this with the 1998 Olds Intrigue, and the same clunking and grinding are now happening on my mother-in-law's 2005 Malibu with less than 45,000 miles on the odometer!
I understand that cars are complicated, and problems can crop up in real-world use that didn't show up in the product-testing phase. But the domestics must do a better job of stepping up to the plate when problems do occur, and must move faster to correct them. It's unacceptable that GM cars are STILL showing trouble with their steering systems a decade after the Intrigue debuted!
And a Tazer!
Regards,
OW
Add to that the bland designs in the US and imports win market share.
Regards,
OW
I kind of take offense to somebody saying buyers of domestic vehicles are impoverished and poorly educated. Heck, I can buy a Lexus LS460 or a Mercedes S-Class if I so desired, but I instead chose a Cadillac DTS Performance. I spent way less and got a prettier car and am extremely happy with it.
Amen, brother! That's EXACTLY what I've been saying for years on these forums. Buying a car you don't like just because it has better resale value is still throwing money away in my book!
1) I won't get stranded everywhere - especially some of the seedy neighborhoods in which I'd fear having a breakdown.
2) The car is probably only at 50% of it's useful and reliable life.
3) Repair costs ARE minimal.
4) Great gas mileage.
5) I can't seem to kill it.
Sheesh. What the heck is everybody so worried about being "stranded" by an automobile? The last time that happened to me was over 22 years ago and it was because I installed the fuel filter backwards on a 1968 Buick. Fortunately, I was able to get a hold of my Dad and he brought some tools so we could reinstall it properly.
The UAW gets paid when not working---that won't do...
If you foreign car fans really cared, you should hurry to your Lexus dealer and help out the emploment picture on the island..Buy one..after all, the foreign content of a Lexus is 100% Asian.. Prius is 100% Asian..When they start building the Prius in Mississippi around 2010 it will only be 85% Asian content..That little bit of domestic content of 15% should put America back to work..
Canada loves coins for one gets the feeling of richness with a pocketful..They have universal health care to cherish..I prefer paper money and BC/BS..
Have a good day!!!!!
Please don't be offended. That is not what I said.
Another poster suggested that people don't buy domestic cars because they can't afford them. This is not true. Studies have consistently shown that buyers of most foreign marques have higher incomes and more education attainment levels than buyers of domestic marques. These are facts, and can't be denied.
Now, some of the lower education levels may be because the domestics own the pickup and van trade, and many people who buy those vehicles need them for work. A plumber or a carpenter needs a pickup, and an electrician needs a big van, and GM and Ford still set the standard in these classes. The electrician I know drives a box truck based on the Ford Econoline chassis. He isn't about to buy a Honda Element for his business. It isn't big enough or sturdy enough to handle the abuse.
But most plumbers and carpenters haven't pursued a degree beyond high school, because their jobs don't require one. That doesn't mean that they are uneducated or stupid. It does mean that in any ownership profile, they will lower the education attainment level for buyers of that particular domestic marque as compared to buyers of selected foreign ones.
But compare, say, a Cobalt to a Corolla. Both vehicles are aimed at the same price point, and no one is going to seriously suggest that a Cobalt will serve better than a Corolla for a particular job - unless the buyer works for a union or one of the domestic automakers. And that's based more on job security (not angering the boss) than on the actual capabilities of each car. These cars are chosen based on buyer preference. Like or not, across the lineup, Toyota passenger cars attract people with higher income and more education than Chevrolet passenger cars do.
The income gap is real, and is partially the result of the desperate measures the domestics have taken to prop up sales. GM, Ford and Chrysler have been MUCH more generous with their low-interest financing and lease deals to maintain sales. It's already backfiring on them, as it did for Mitsubishi.
Many stations do that in CA also. ARCO usually the cheapest will allow an ATM and they charge 50 cents to use it. Someone here turned me onto the Shell 5% discount card. I use that and now Costco has an AMEX card that gives 3% on gas which is already the cheapest in town. Paid $3.75 per gallon with the Costco discount last Friday.
It took one test drive in my BMW to realize the value I wanted could not be delivered by anything US except partly by a Corvette. Every other US car would smack the wall on turns easily handled by a 3-series.
Regards,
OW
If you eliminate anything, get rid of the penny, and simply round up or round down every sale from here...keep nickels, dimes and quarters...dump half dollar and dollar coins...
I can't remember when I was last stranded but for the last 5 cars I put less than 100K on them so I could get dome value from a sale since all US metal.
My wife was stranded by her Yukon's failed power steering pump on a busy intersection. Tow truck, Police, embarrassment. Not to mention the Hazardous spill from the PS fluid all over the street!
BTW, OnStar estimated 1 hour for a tow...the Police got one in 5 minutes because she was blocking the main entrance to the MALL!!!! Can't have consumer spending halted due to a failed GM product, now could we?
Regards,
OW
Interesting choice. I saw an Element this morning with a full body wrap for some HVAC company. To be honest, 90% of the work an electrician, plumber, etc. does in the course of a day could be handled by an Element just fine, but they've been conditioned to buy oversized gas-chugging domestic boxes.
Did the pump itself fail or was it the high pressure or return hose? It's quite apparent when a pump is about to fail or is low on fluid as it sounds just like a model airplane.