I think it happens everytime a car turns out to be wildly popular. Buicks became so popular in the 1950s, they knocked low-priced Plymouth out of third place. By the late 1950s, Buick was experiencing problems and they fell from third to ninth place.
I need not tell you how popular the 1957 Mopar line-up was and the problems that occurred as a result.
Toyota slipped for the same reasons plus Watanabe's push for Toyota to be the #1 Auto Manufacturer in the world.
Sometimes slow but sure wins the race. Porsche's production is miniscule compared to everybody else, but their quality is among the highest.
Re.: Andre's post about the '65 cars: I think that is probably my all-time favorite single automotive model year of all time. I love the big Pontiacs and big Chevys and think the other GM full-sizes were handsome, love the Corvair, and think the redesigned big Fords and Mercs were good-looking cars. The '65 Chryslers were good-looking too IMHO. The only domestic car I think I just plain did not like was that year's Ford Fairlane, which seemed almost like a one-year-only design although I think it was a boxed-up '64.
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I pretty much feel the same way about 1965. And I agree on the Fairlane. I thought the '62-64 models looked good, like a 3/4 scale version of the big cars. The '63, especially, I thought was especially handsome. But the '65, for some reason, just seemed too bulky and clumsy. I think they again tried as best they could to mimic the style of the big '65 Fords, but it just didn't work on that '62-64 body.
I always thought it was odd that the '65 big Fords had stacked headlights and the midsize had regular quads, while Mercury did just the opposite...stacked for the midsize (well, that year the Comet was technically their compact), and regular quads for the big cars.
The '65 Mercury is another car I'm not so crazy about. I think the overall body looks nice, but just don't care for the front that tries to look like a poor-man's Lincoln.
In compacts, I think the Dart and Valiant were kind of goofy looking that year, but at least interesting. Falcon and Comet looked good, and so did the Chevy II and the Corvair was gorgeous!
I never was so crazy about the '65 Chevelle. Not ugly, but just kind of plain looking, but I thought its sisters at Pontiac, Buick, and Olds were really sharp.
The '65 Dart and Valiant were kind-of goofy that year...really just some mild trim reshuffling of the '64, which was a mild trim reshuffling of the '63.
Funny, I like '65 Chevy II's too. The '62-'64 were so very similar to the '65, but there were just very subtle changes to the '65 Chevy II styling which significantly improved it in my eyes. Matter of fact, I like it much better than the boxy '66 and '67 Chevy II.
The '65 Chevelle? Kind of plain, but I like it better than the '64. It's easy to see why they sold so well, though...they were almost a reintroduction of the '55 Chevy...square, roomy, and not real flashy! I do like the Chevelle 2-door wagons of '64 and '65.
I like '65 big Mercs, but the dash is plain and flat I think.
I like '65 Chrysler cars (Newport, 300, New Yorker).
My favorite '65 car is probably a Bonneville Sport Coupe in Iris Mist with buckets and console. Buckets are rare in a Bonneville that's not a convertible, but they were an option. I like the fastback roof better than the semi-formal top on that year's Grand Prix.
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BMW is a German company. I can't speak for them specifically, but usually a long-standing company, like Benz, contributed to the war effort against our country, and there are still folks alive on both sides who remember the atrocities committed by the Germans and Japanese.
It hasn't been long enough for me to forget--400,000 U.S. servicemen killed. 400,000. Only a little more than a decade before I was born....not 100, 200, or 300 years ago.
I know, someone will post and say they know a POW who drives a Benz or Lexus. I'm glad they can overlook it. I can't. I'm also aware of the political incorrectness of such a statement.
And for those who will roll their eyes and make comments about hanging onto something for too long, I can make the same remark about the constant comments about long-ago UAW abuses mentioned in this forum.
My father-in-law died in 2000 (he never served in the armed forces-he was already too old for service in WWII) and he held your point of view, but only towards the Japanese. For him, the Hawaii attack was unforgiveable. He stayed that way until his death. He saw the European opponents differently, and didn't have a problem with German or Italian products.
IMO, we attempted to resolve (at least, the major) issues with the war crimes trials. Everyone in Germany wasn't a [non-permissible content removed], and I remember my father telling me that, from the German POW's he met while there, all they wanted was the same we wanted..... an end to the war so they could go home to their families. The USSR went to great lengths to separate the German citizen from the [non-permissible content removed] after WWII, especially in Eastern Europe. Russia lost 20 million, and I am sure more than one Russian feels the way you do.
But, I understand it. The events in the early 20th century show us the dangers to getting too wrapped up in nationalism. After all, everyone likes to eat on a regular basis.
Fortunately, there are enough that could move beyond it, and now Germany and Japan are two of the US's closest allies... instead of adversaries.
> now Germany and Japan are two of the US's closest allies... instead of adversaries.
I realize we have opposing views on the propriety of states bidding against others to see who can give the most to foreign-based companies for bulding there.
However, like the Ford plant to which I alluded in an earlier statement that is closed after 20 some years, the BMW and other foreign-owned plants could be gone in a flash. Or take the worse case scenario where for some reason there is a conflict, a la North and South Korea, and the US were involved in an adversarial relationship with Germany or Japan or one of their other allies?
The US auto plants were converted like Ford's plants and Packard's to produce military equipment. Would we see toyota converting the Georgetown plant to build B-25s or missiles or whatever is the next war production product in our current age of military weapons?
Would we see the Mercedes company converting the Alabama plant (am I right that they located there at great expense?) converting to produce tanks to roll over the Vaterland's hills and forests? Or would that plant be closed and damaged to make it unusable?
We always tend to blow defense out of proportion. We have enough fire power already built sitting in the USA to destroy the entire planet many times over. The "wars" of the future will be to make sure some IDIOT doesn't have the same capability.
Turning back to supporting the USA consumers who buy the cars, no difference to me anymore regarding buy American for any product. Whatever I buy here in the USA in some measure supports the USA citizens. I pay taxes and they give a portion of it to foreign governments in the form of aid and to failed corporations in the form of bankruptcy support without my approval. I need to worry about supporting GM now?
Would we see the Mercedes company converting the Alabama plant (am I right that they located there at great expense?) converting to produce tanks to roll over the Vaterland's hills and forests? Or would that plant be closed and damaged to make it unusable?
Well, Ford and GM have plants in many other countries too, it's a non-issue IMO.
Just for the "what happens in the event of the next WWII".....
First it wasn't like the car companies gave us use of the plants out of the goodness of their hearts. They were paid well - better than they were making cars beforehand. That government money kept several automakers afloat into the 50s when they would have otherwise died way earlier - Studebaker, Packard, Nash, Hudson.....
The other thing is we did not have what we now know as the military-industrial complex then. We now build enough military equipment to blow up the world several times over on an ongoing basis. We're not going to need to take over factories to build planes next time around.
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Turning back to supporting the USA consumers who buy the cars, no difference to me anymore regarding buy American for any product. Whatever I buy here in the USA in some measure supports the USA citizens. I pay taxes and they give a portion of it to foreign governments in the form of aid and to failed corporations in the form of bankruptcy support without my approval. I need to worry about supporting GM now?
I agree 100%. I don't blame anyone for buying foreign. Buy what you want and what you can afford.
For the first time in a long time, the domestic manufacturers have competitive product to offer. GM seems to be improving. Ford is really improving. I'm impressed how they've continued to roll out new and/or updated product while improving their quality at the same time. Every time I read a auto blog, it seems a new or refreshed Ford model is being tested. Alan Mulally should be CEO of the year. What he's implemented at Ford is proof good leadership is both essential and has been sorely lacking in Detroit.
As much as I appreciate and respect many of the foreign brands, I will/would go to a Ford dealer first for my next vehicle. They've done a commendable job.
Ford is absolutely to be commended for not taking TARP money; however, I don't think that means the product has been flawless the past few years. I was just reading yesterday on Edmunds about Taurus X issues from the '07 model year. Hopefully the lack of taking TARP doesn't translate into absolute product superiority in people's minds.
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I went to the local MBCA show weekend before last. There was a car there with "Former POW" plates. I talked to the amusing old guy who owned it, and asked him about his past. He spent time at the Bad Orb prison camp, one which was not exactly a resort hotel. His car? Brand new loaded E350 Cabrio. It looks like someone else got over it. Many citizens of those old Axis nations have also moved on from allied mistakes and atrocities as their nations weren't the only criminals, and there is no moral high ground to be had from that war...but I guess that's different, and for another venue.
Ford is absolutely to be commended for not taking TARP money; however, I don't think that means the product has been flawless the past few years. I was just reading yesterday on Edmunds about Taurus X issues from the '07 model year. Hopefully the lack of taking TARP doesn't translate into absolute product superiority in people's minds.
I never said the product was perfect or flawless. You can find something wrong with any car on edmunds. I'm just going by the latest results from the likes of CR, JD Power, and Wards Auto etc, and the fact that they have refreshed or redesigned much of their product line. That and 5 years ago, Ford didn't have a vehicle I'd buy, now they have several that would land on my radar.
Ford definitely doesn't have time to rest. Mercury is toast and Lincoln is lame and needs a lot of work there.
My 07 Expedition is not perfect and I've had to have it repaired a couple of times (I bought it used in 08 mainly because I got a great deal on it, I really didn't want a Ford or any domestic at the time), but that's a huge improvement over my previous Suburban that required major repairs ever year I owned it.
There was a car there with "Former POW" plates. I talked to the amusing old guy who owned it, and asked him about his past. He spent time at the Bad Orb prison camp, one which was not exactly a resort hotel. His car? Brand new loaded E350 Cabrio. It looks like someone else got over it. Many citizens of those old Axis nations have also moved on from allied mistakes and atrocities as their nations weren't the only criminals, and there is no moral high ground to be had from that war...but I guess that's different, and for another venue.
No kidding, I wonder what Native American's drive?
Anyway, I saw a very large bumper sticker on the back of a late model Camry a month or so ago, stating something like "In remembrance of USS Indianapolis"
lots of not buying American has transpired over the last decade. Lets look at the results: The middle class is a smaller percentage than it was a decade ago Wages are down in real dollars Unemployment is up Benefits are down for most businesses are struggling and closing Foreign ownership of America is on the rise Real estate values have collapsed
You can argue about how little of this can be blamed on the auto industry You can argue about how small the auto industry is in America You can argue about how little of Asian company profits ever leave American's hands
I've just never heard anything good for america about Asians selling most of the cars in America. I've never heard about college interships at Japanese tech centers for students at my son's college. At GM, we had many interns from his college.
I take the 'If you can't beat em join em' path. I told my son to not take mechanical engineering. I told him to take civil engineering and hopefully land one of those gov jobs paying $129k with awesome pension and benefits. It's hard to outsource a drainage ditch to India.
My town is showing many signs of the great recession. I can point out the positives of this recession. Gas is barely over $2.50. There were $4000 in rebates on my last new car. The roads and restaurants are empty.
lots of not buying American has transpired over the last decade. Lets look at the results: The middle class is a smaller percentage than it was a decade ago Wages are down in real dollars Unemployment is up Benefits are down for most businesses are struggling and closing Foreign ownership of America is on the rise Real estate values have collapsed
I would remind you that the "funk" we are in at the moment isn't isolated solely to the US, but worldwide.
Personally, I can't fathom how American's buying foreign products caused all of that. If anything, other countries would be reaping a better economy. And, to a certain extent, China is (for the moment).
And, most economists would agree that what caused the real estate collapse had nothing to do with not buying American, and everything with overspeculation and extremely (maybe even criminal) loaning practices.
But, as you pointed out....If you happen to not be one of the folks without a job or underemployed, times aren't nearly so bad as they were under Jimmy Carter's administration.... with a fuel embargo and sky-high interest rates.
I realize we have opposing views on the propriety of states bidding against others to see who can give the most to foreign-based companies for bulding there.
I don't know...do we? I've clearly stated my opinion that incentive plans for companies (domestic & foreign) need to be reeled in quite a bit, or at a minimum, at least standardized.
At the same time, I recognize that when an incentive plan is properly structured, it can bring huge benefits to everyone involved.
I don't think one size fits all. That's my opinion.
However, like the Ford plant to which I alluded in an earlier statement that is closed after 20 some years, the BMW and other foreign-owned plants could be gone in a flash. Or take the worse case scenario where for some reason there is a conflict, a la North and South Korea, and the US were involved in an adversarial relationship with Germany or Japan or one of their other allies?
Again, I'm not buying that any company (foreign or domestic) just decides one day to walk away from a $billion + investment.
Several posters since you posted pretty much have said what I would regarding future conflicts, with one exception. When the [non-permissible content removed]'s took over Germany, they nationalized foreign investment and took over foreign plants. Triumph motorcycles (England) was one such plant. And, this from...
On his 78th birthday, the prestigious German Grand Service Cross of the Golden Eagle was presented to Henry Ford, the famous and fabulously wealthy American car manufacturer, by a German diplomat in the USA on July 30, 1938, on behalf of Adolf Hitler himself. Ford is actually the only American that Hitler even mentions in his book 'Mein Kampf'. In his book, 'Entnazifizierung in Bayern' the German author, Niethammer, suggests that the "failure" of the Americans to destroy the Ford car plant (Ford Werke) outside Cologne, was all a part of a "capitalist plot" of some kind. Many other well-researched authors have since drawn exactly the same conclusion. By 1941, the Ford Werke plant became one of the largest suppliers of military vehicles to the German Army. In April, 1939, Ford Werke presented Hitler with a birthday gift of 35,000 Reichmarks.
However, I don't think Ford was operating the plant during the War...
So, if we were to enter into a conflict with, say, Germany or Japan (HIGHLY UNLIKELY), the plant would still be here, only the management would change. Frankly, the US would most likely have far more to lose in plant and equipment with our facilities located overseas.
The US auto plants were converted like Ford's plants and Packard's to produce military equipment. Would we see toyota converting the Georgetown plant to build B-25s or missiles or whatever is the next war production product in our current age of military weapons?
Again, that wasn't a "voluntary" conversion. And, as others already pointed out, GM, Ford and Chrysler did pretty well making war goods for the US armed services.
Would we see the Mercedes company converting the Alabama plant (am I right that they located there at great expense?) converting to produce tanks to roll over the Vaterland's hills and forests? Or would that plant be closed and damaged to make it unusable?
Highly unlikely that any damage of any significance would occur, because conflicts such as the one you describe don't arise overnight, and certainly precautions would be taken to prevent damage as you described. Wouldn't that fall under Homeland Security?
I think you'd have to admit that the loss of manufacturing in this country has had a catastrophic long-term effect on the economy. How could it not? It's due to most things coming in here for consumption being imported.
I remember the Carter days...I was looking for a job out of college then. I did get one, at slightly higher pay than I expected, about 3 1/2 mos. after graduation. I did work manual labor that summer. My grades were nothing to brag about. And my new 'professional' job was in Cleveland, OH.
I would venture to say that someone in my same position then would not be as lucky today.
Many people I've spoken to consider this economy, employment-wise, to be much worse than 1980 or '82 or '83. I think much of it has to do with things not being manufactured here--or not nearly as much as even back in the early '80's. I'm afraid it's mostly too far to try and go back, plus folks in general have a short memory and shop only on price 100%.
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I never cease to be amazed at how easily nationalism and patriotism bends and distorts peoples minds, logic, memory, and often ethics. Those who realize the power of self deception created by the need to rationalize and deny some of the not so admirable things that ALL warring nations do are the strongest advocates of rewriting the history books to tell it as we only wished it had been. How many of us remember (or even knew) that US military banned our domestic news media from reporting on what it was like in Japan after we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Those scenes of death and destruction were so extreme that it would have made pacifists out of many observers. How many of us knew, or still remember that, soon after Japan surrendered, the US military made a secret deal with the Japanese scientists who were conducting the illegal experiments on chemical and biological weapons to grant them immunity from prosecution; in exchange for the data they collected from their experiments. The difference when we do it, of course, is that God is on our side. And how many Jews who have gone around ever since WWII crying about the terrible things the Germans did to their culture and their people even blink an eye about the terrible things that the Israeli military is doing to the people in their neighboring countries today. Is God on their side, too? How many Gods are we talking about here?
Another way I see it is in Moscow - the Russian sacrifice in that war makes that of the western allies look insignificant. What will you see? So many German cars that you might think you are in Berlin, just with dumpier buildings. It looks like those who lost the most have in large part got on with things too. On that note, I loathe the Soviets even more than [non-permissible content removed], but a commie era car would be fun to have as a curiosity.
My grandfather was in the war, serving in the Aleutians. Over the years he owned both German and Japanese cars, although his true love was big Chryslers, it seems many Mopar people seem to be a little more openminded, somehow.
My 07 Expedition is not perfect and I've had to have it repaired a couple of times (I bought it used in 08 mainly because I got a great deal on it, I really didn't want a Ford or any domestic at the time), but that's a huge improvement over my previous Suburban that required major repairs ever year I owned it.
For what it's worth, CR recommends the Chevy Silverado among full-size trucks, replacing the Avalanche from the year before. Any good news about GM seems unpopular here though.
I don't believe the [non-permissible content removed] took control of those foreign subsidiaries until the actual outbreak of hostilities. There was a direct link between American and German styling and engineering for Ford and GM both until civilian production ended, in fact many German models were near copies of US models, and had similar powertrains. No doubt in 1938, the American home base was still making money from its [non-permissible content removed]-patronized operations. This might make decisions harder for some. I believe the Triumph works in Nuremberg departed from British control before 1933, and were part of the Adler group.
For what it's worth, CR recommends the Chevy Silverado among full-size trucks, replacing the Avalanche from the year before. Any good news about GM seems unpopular here though.
Well we need to admit that in the eyes of many (too many) consumers, GM is a highly damaged brand. IMHO they made a big mistake in not renaming the company after BK. They have not made enough of a break with the past. Hyundai is changing big time and so is Ford. I don't see as much from GM - more like incremental improvements. And their marketing is still overhyped while their products are still trying to catch up. They still have a lot of junkers in their lineup.
Haven't GM's full-sized trucks and SUVs usually been pretty highly rated? Well, with the exception of the Suburbans that CircleW an Dieselone had? And my uncle's '97 Silverado, which has gone through two transmissions now.
Umm, wait, what was the point I was trying to make, again? :P
For what it's worth, CR recommends the Chevy Silverado among full-size trucks, replacing the Avalanche from the year before. Any good news about GM seems unpopular here though.
That's great, but at the time, I wasn't looking at trucks. I wanted a fullsize SUV. I was disappointed in the redesigned Suburban/Tahoe. I know they still lead in sales, but I don't understand why. I wanted flat fold 3rd row, along with a 3rd row that actually has some leg room. I didn't want another 5.3/4speed combo. It's too anemic for towing. They use the 6speed now, but back in 07 and 08 it wasn't available in a Tahoe or Suburban.
I test drove a Yukon XL 3/4 ton with the 6.0L, but it was horrible. Poorly assembled, rode and drove way to crudely for my tastes and the 6.0L/4speed combo felt slower than the 5.3 in my 1/2 ton suburban. Not to mention that combo was a huge gas hog.
I was interested in the 6.2/6peed powered Denali's but once again, I was not impressed with how they drove. IMO, the suspension was to soft, the steering to vague, and once again fit n finish was less than impressive (rattles, inconsistent panel gaps, door moldings that were noticeably misaligned). Plus they didn't have a tow rating any higher than my '00 1/2 ton Suburban.
At that point I was looking for a low mileage used Armada or Sequoia when I stumbled on my Expedition. The Ford wasn't on my radar at all. I happened to see it at a Chevy/Caddy dealer and it caught my eye. I decided to test drive it, as I'd driven about everything else, so I figured why not. I was immediately impressed with how responsive and tight the chassis was. I liked the quickness and on center steering response, it was much better than any SUV I've drive except for maybe the Armada. It was exceptionally quiet and smooth. It had all the options I wanted (which was a big deal since I was looking at used 1 year old SUVs). It had the h/d towing package along with 3.73 gears and a 6 speed trans. The price was thousands less than any of the other SUV's I was looking at, so it ended up being in my garage. It tows great, get's decent enough fuel economy, and has been fairly reliable. Rattles have stayed in check too. We'll see if that continues, as I'm approaching 73k miles already. Still on the original tires and brakes, though I'll replace both by winter.
Well, I would agree that its had some negative effect, but I have some reservations about using the word catastrophic.
I'm aware of where you live from prior posts, but if you lived in the northeast (my small hometown for one), or many medium-sized cities in the midwest, I think you'd share my 'catastrophic' opinion.
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I'm aware of where you live from prior posts, but if you lived in the northeast (my small hometown for one), or many medium-sized cities in the midwest, I think you'd share my 'catastrophic' opinion.
I live in east central Illinois and I don't see it a catastrophic in regards to manufacturing. I know far more people laid off from the construction trades. I personally know several union equipment operators, iron workers, carpenters, and general contractors that are seriously hurting, many haven't had work since last fall. The only people I know that's been laid off from a manufacturer is my cousin and her husband who were laid off from Lear (supplier). Ironically, her husband was able to get a job at US Steel that paid significantly more than me made a Lear and now she gets to stay home with the kids.
A friend of mine who owns a machine shop locally is complaining of to much work. He told me over the weekend he has a huge back log of orders and that business is the best he's seen in over 5 years.
I know over towards Decatur and Peoria things are pretty bad, but Cat is hiring some people back.
That's it. You'd probably fool a lot of people into believing that was an American car, not something made under one of the most sinister forces of history.
Car beside it is a Volga, which was strongly influenced by the 53 Ford - Soviet engineers actually imported a 53 Ford via Finland and used it as a benchmark. Communism doesn't breed creativity. And 40 years or so later, the red Chinese would start making ridiculous copies of western cars. Funny.
I'm aware of where you live from prior posts, but if you lived in the northeast (my small hometown for one), or many medium-sized cities in the midwest, I think you'd share my 'catastrophic' opinion.
I completely understand. And, as bad as you see it, think about if you were living in one of the DHL hub localities that closed recently, some of which had DHL as the primary employer.
But, there are 2 issues at play here. One is job loss/slow job growth, and another is the cause(s) of that phenomenon.
Growing up, we had a milk deliveryman, and a gas station attendant pumped gas. Neither of those jobs were exported, yet they no longer exist. I don't know of any high-volume automaker that uses people to paint cars today (other than Porche)...they are all painted by robots. Those jobs weren't lost to outsourcing.
Most "repairmen" today are no more than "parts swappers". It was completely different 40 years ago...repairmen actually repaired things.
That's why I say for someone to blame the current situation solely on outsourcing alone is putting forth a red herring.
I see the US more in a "big picture" format, well, because that's what it is. One point on a graph doesn't make a trend, but there is no question that employment is a critical issue today.
To me, catastrophic is the Great Depression, when you saw men sitting on a hilltop overlooking the construction of the San Franciso Bay Bridge, watching through binoculars hoping to see someone fall so that they could run down and try to get his job... or, men jumping out of office buildings.
If we get there, I'll accept the term "catastrophic".
To me, catastrophic is the Great Depression, when you saw men sitting on a hilltop overlooking the construction of the San Franciso Bay Bridge, watching through binoculars hoping to see someone fall so that they could run down and try to get his job... or, men jumping out of office buildings.
If we get there, I'll accept the term "catastrophic".
That's pretty much how I see it. At the same time, I'm not at all happy with the direction we are going.
I don't believe the [non-permissible content removed] took control of those foreign subsidiaries until the actual outbreak of hostilities.
Overall, that would be my guess.
The fact that the facilities remained active and in production proves the point I was attempting to make, regardless when the actual takeover occurred. So, if we were to find ourself at war with, say Japan, Nissan facilities in Mississippi would most likely be acquired by the US government for possible war-related production (or assigned to a war materials industry player).
And, you may also be correct on the Triumph issue, but I do know that the Triumph designs were manufactured and used by the German army in WWII (and, I doubt under license agreement from Triumph in England).
For him, the Hawaii attack was unforgiveable. He stayed that way until his death. He saw the European opponents differently, and didn't have a problem with German or Italian products.
And yet the Germans killed far more of us than the Japanese did.
Note that these numbers are only for the Army. The best numbers that I can find for the Navy/Marines are here. They show a total of 54,600 battle deaths, the majority of which occurred in the Pacific TO.
This shouldn't surprise anyone. Japan was a comparatively poor country that gambled everything on a surprise strike against Pearl Harbor. As the architect of this attack, Admiral Yamamoto, pointed out to his colleagues, Japan had to bring the war to a successful conclusion within a year. After that, superior U.S. production would make Japanese defeat inevitable.
Germany, on the other hand, was the world's number 2 industrial power with the most powerful army on the planet. (Some military historians consider the Wehrmacht on the eve of the invasion of the USSR to be simply the most formidable ground force in history.) If not for Hitler's foolish decision to send the bulk of his army into the Soviet Union, it's possible that the best we could have hoped for in Europe was a stalemate.
That's why I find it a bit odd that many of us seem to be easier on the Germans than we are on the Japanese. Is it because most of us here are of European descent?
That's why I find it a bit odd that many of us seem to be easier on the Germans than we are on the Japanese. Is it because most of us here are of European descent?
Just wondering.
The Japanese on the west coast were interned in camps....Most likely because, unlike the Germans and Italians, they had not yet blended into the general population pool (they remained isolated and segregated, for the most part), and they were easier to identify by their facial features. On the other hand, a German looked exactly like any other Western European.
Another possibility... The suicide mentality held by the Bushido Samurai-following Japanses soldier. Frankly, many in the US simply thought the Japanese were crazy and could never be reasoned with. On the other hand, 1000's of German soldiers surrendered and were able to interface with many in the US forces (without having a weapon pointed at them). Stories abound of German soldiers showing Allied soldiers family pictures once in custody, which was a rare event for the Japanese, and it wasn't unusual for GI's to be invited for a meal at a German's house (regardless of the non-frat policies in place at the time).
And, there are several other differences.
For my father-in-law, it was simply the sneak attack that toasted him. He'd be alive today if he was convinced a Japanese funeral home was going to be the one taking care of his remains!
".....Personally, I can't fathom how American's buying foreign products caused all of that. If anything, other countries would be reaping a better economy. And, to a certain extent, China is (for the moment).
And, most economists would agree that what caused the real estate collapse had nothing to do with not buying American, and everything with overspeculation and extremely (maybe even criminal) loaning practices."
But, Couldn't one say that the root cause of the mess we are in, both from a financial and jobs standpoint is that investors were TOO hung up on trying to make money from money, as opposed to making money from products and services?
But, Couldn't one say that the root cause of the mess we are in, both from a financial and jobs standpoint is that investors were TOO hung up on trying to make money from money, as opposed to making money from products and services?
You may indeed be onto something.
Before the dot-com bust, most small start-up companies that I was aware of had a legitimate business plan that explained how the company would provide goods/services to make money.
Soon after that, many of the start-ups I was asked to look at pretty much intended to make money off of the business plan itself...ie, get investment cash and then unload the operation to an unsuspecting "sucker" before he realized the plan wouldn't actually generate a profit.... well before the seed cash ran out. The plan itself never actually showed how the startup was to turn a profit.
All of that makes the whole past crimes argument even more difficult. GM and Ford willingly profited from operations in [non-permissible content removed] controlled Germany all the way until the outbreak of war.
And indeed, if WW2 was to take place again with a modern industrial structure, those foreign factories on US soil would be put to use building machinery to defeat their (ex) owners, just as the German operations of Ford and GM were used after the outbreak of the real war.
If one is to not buy from a company linked to past crimes or injustice, they will be walking on shoes they made themselves, or riding a (non-Chinese) bike at best.
Comments
I need not tell you how popular the 1957 Mopar line-up was and the problems that occurred as a result.
Toyota slipped for the same reasons plus Watanabe's push for Toyota to be the #1 Auto Manufacturer in the world.
Sometimes slow but sure wins the race. Porsche's production is miniscule compared to everybody else, but their quality is among the highest.
I always thought it was odd that the '65 big Fords had stacked headlights and the midsize had regular quads, while Mercury did just the opposite...stacked for the midsize (well, that year the Comet was technically their compact), and regular quads for the big cars.
The '65 Mercury is another car I'm not so crazy about. I think the overall body looks nice, but just don't care for the front that tries to look like a poor-man's Lincoln.
In compacts, I think the Dart and Valiant were kind of goofy looking that year, but at least interesting. Falcon and Comet looked good, and so did the Chevy II and the Corvair was gorgeous!
I never was so crazy about the '65 Chevelle. Not ugly, but just kind of plain looking, but I thought its sisters at Pontiac, Buick, and Olds were really sharp.
Funny, I like '65 Chevy II's too. The '62-'64 were so very similar to the '65, but there were just very subtle changes to the '65 Chevy II styling which significantly improved it in my eyes. Matter of fact, I like it much better than the boxy '66 and '67 Chevy II.
The '65 Chevelle? Kind of plain, but I like it better than the '64. It's easy to see why they sold so well, though...they were almost a reintroduction of the '55 Chevy...square, roomy, and not real flashy! I do like the Chevelle 2-door wagons of '64 and '65.
I like '65 big Mercs, but the dash is plain and flat I think.
I like '65 Chrysler cars (Newport, 300, New Yorker).
My favorite '65 car is probably a Bonneville Sport Coupe in Iris Mist with buckets and console. Buckets are rare in a Bonneville that's not a convertible, but they were an option. I like the fastback roof better than the semi-formal top on that year's Grand Prix.
Lean, trim, powerful.
Fullsize:
Trim, beautiful, and could be powerful.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It hasn't been long enough for me to forget--400,000 U.S. servicemen killed. 400,000. Only a little more than a decade before I was born....not 100, 200, or 300 years ago.
I know, someone will post and say they know a POW who drives a Benz or Lexus. I'm glad they can overlook it. I can't. I'm also aware of the political incorrectness of such a statement.
And for those who will roll their eyes and make comments about hanging onto something for too long, I can make the same remark about the constant comments about long-ago UAW abuses mentioned in this forum.
My father-in-law died in 2000 (he never served in the armed forces-he was already too old for service in WWII) and he held your point of view, but only towards the Japanese. For him, the Hawaii attack was unforgiveable. He stayed that way until his death. He saw the European opponents differently, and didn't have a problem with German or Italian products.
IMO, we attempted to resolve (at least, the major) issues with the war crimes trials. Everyone in Germany wasn't a [non-permissible content removed], and I remember my father telling me that, from the German POW's he met while there, all they wanted was the same we wanted..... an end to the war so they could go home to their families. The USSR went to great lengths to separate the German citizen from the [non-permissible content removed] after WWII, especially in Eastern Europe. Russia lost 20 million, and I am sure more than one Russian feels the way you do.
But, I understand it. The events in the early 20th century show us the dangers to getting too wrapped up in nationalism. After all, everyone likes to eat on a regular basis.
Fortunately, there are enough that could move beyond it, and now Germany and Japan are two of the US's closest allies... instead of adversaries.
I realize we have opposing views on the propriety of states bidding against others to see who can give the most to foreign-based companies for bulding there.
However, like the Ford plant to which I alluded in an earlier statement that is closed after 20 some years, the BMW and other foreign-owned plants could be gone in a flash. Or take the worse case scenario where for some reason there is a conflict, a la North and South Korea, and the US were involved in an adversarial relationship with Germany or Japan or one of their other allies?
The US auto plants were converted like Ford's plants and Packard's to produce military equipment. Would we see toyota converting the Georgetown plant to build B-25s or missiles or whatever is the next war production product in our current age of military weapons?
Would we see the Mercedes company converting the Alabama plant (am I right that they located there at great expense?) converting to produce tanks to roll over the Vaterland's hills and forests? Or would that plant be closed and damaged to make it unusable?
Which do we think?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Turning back to supporting the USA consumers who buy the cars, no difference to me anymore regarding buy American for any product. Whatever I buy here in the USA in some measure supports the USA citizens. I pay taxes and they give a portion of it to foreign governments in the form of aid and to failed corporations in the form of bankruptcy support without my approval. I need to worry about supporting GM now?
Been there, done that.
Regards,
OW
Well, Ford and GM have plants in many other countries too, it's a non-issue IMO.
First it wasn't like the car companies gave us use of the plants out of the goodness of their hearts. They were paid well - better than they were making cars beforehand. That government money kept several automakers afloat into the 50s when they would have otherwise died way earlier - Studebaker, Packard, Nash, Hudson.....
The other thing is we did not have what we now know as the military-industrial complex then. We now build enough military equipment to blow up the world several times over on an ongoing basis. We're not going to need to take over factories to build planes next time around.
I agree 100%. I don't blame anyone for buying foreign. Buy what you want and what you can afford.
For the first time in a long time, the domestic manufacturers have competitive product to offer. GM seems to be improving. Ford is really improving. I'm impressed how they've continued to roll out new and/or updated product while improving their quality at the same time. Every time I read a auto blog, it seems a new or refreshed Ford model is being tested. Alan Mulally should be CEO of the year. What he's implemented at Ford is proof good leadership is both essential and has been sorely lacking in Detroit.
As much as I appreciate and respect many of the foreign brands, I will/would go to a Ford dealer first for my next vehicle. They've done a commendable job.
I never said the product was perfect or flawless. You can find something wrong with any car on edmunds. I'm just going by the latest results from the likes of CR, JD Power, and Wards Auto etc, and the fact that they have refreshed or redesigned much of their product line. That and 5 years ago, Ford didn't have a vehicle I'd buy, now they have several that would land on my radar.
Ford definitely doesn't have time to rest. Mercury is toast and Lincoln is lame and needs a lot of work there.
My 07 Expedition is not perfect and I've had to have it repaired a couple of times (I bought it used in 08 mainly because I got a great deal on it, I really didn't want a Ford or any domestic at the time), but that's a huge improvement over my previous Suburban that required major repairs ever year I owned it.
No kidding, I wonder what Native American's drive?
Anyway, I saw a very large bumper sticker on the back of a late model Camry a month or so ago, stating something like "In remembrance of USS Indianapolis"
The middle class is a smaller percentage than it was a decade ago
Wages are down in real dollars
Unemployment is up
Benefits are down for most
businesses are struggling and closing
Foreign ownership of America is on the rise
Real estate values have collapsed
You can argue about how little of this can be blamed on the auto industry
You can argue about how small the auto industry is in America
You can argue about how little of Asian company profits ever leave American's hands
I've just never heard anything good for america about Asians selling most of the cars in America. I've never heard about college interships at Japanese tech centers for students at my son's college. At GM, we had many interns from his college.
I take the 'If you can't beat em join em' path. I told my son to not take mechanical engineering. I told him to take civil engineering and hopefully land one of those gov jobs paying $129k with awesome pension and benefits. It's hard to outsource a drainage ditch to India.
My town is showing many signs of the great recession. I can point out the positives of this recession. Gas is barely over $2.50. There were $4000 in rebates on my last new car. The roads and restaurants are empty.
Pontiacs?
The middle class is a smaller percentage than it was a decade ago
Wages are down in real dollars
Unemployment is up
Benefits are down for most
businesses are struggling and closing
Foreign ownership of America is on the rise
Real estate values have collapsed
I would remind you that the "funk" we are in at the moment isn't isolated solely to the US, but worldwide.
Personally, I can't fathom how American's buying foreign products caused all of that. If anything, other countries would be reaping a better economy. And, to a certain extent, China is (for the moment).
And, most economists would agree that what caused the real estate collapse had nothing to do with not buying American, and everything with overspeculation and extremely (maybe even criminal) loaning practices.
But, as you pointed out....If you happen to not be one of the folks without a job or underemployed, times aren't nearly so bad as they were under Jimmy Carter's administration.... with a fuel embargo and sky-high interest rates.
I don't know...do we? I've clearly stated my opinion that incentive plans for companies (domestic & foreign) need to be reeled in quite a bit, or at a minimum, at least standardized.
At the same time, I recognize that when an incentive plan is properly structured, it can bring huge benefits to everyone involved.
I don't think one size fits all. That's my opinion.
However, like the Ford plant to which I alluded in an earlier statement that is closed after 20 some years, the BMW and other foreign-owned plants could be gone in a flash. Or take the worse case scenario where for some reason there is a conflict, a la North and South Korea, and the US were involved in an adversarial relationship with Germany or Japan or one of their other allies?
Again, I'm not buying that any company (foreign or domestic) just decides one day to walk away from a $billion + investment.
Several posters since you posted pretty much have said what I would regarding future conflicts, with one exception. When the [non-permissible content removed]'s took over Germany, they nationalized foreign investment and took over foreign plants. Triumph motorcycles (England) was one such plant. And, this from...
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/facts.html#lesser_known_1939
On his 78th birthday, the prestigious German Grand Service Cross of the Golden Eagle was presented to Henry Ford, the famous and fabulously wealthy American car manufacturer, by a German diplomat in the USA on July 30, 1938, on behalf of Adolf Hitler himself. Ford is actually the only American that Hitler even mentions in his book 'Mein Kampf'. In his book, 'Entnazifizierung in Bayern' the German author, Niethammer, suggests that the "failure" of the Americans to destroy the Ford car plant (Ford Werke) outside Cologne, was all a part of a "capitalist plot" of some kind. Many other well-researched authors have since drawn exactly the same conclusion. By 1941, the Ford Werke plant became one of the largest suppliers of military vehicles to the German Army. In April, 1939, Ford Werke presented Hitler with a birthday gift of 35,000 Reichmarks.
However, I don't think Ford was operating the plant during the War...
So, if we were to enter into a conflict with, say, Germany or Japan (HIGHLY UNLIKELY), the plant would still be here, only the management would change. Frankly, the US would most likely have far more to lose in plant and equipment with our facilities located overseas.
The US auto plants were converted like Ford's plants and Packard's to produce military equipment. Would we see toyota converting the Georgetown plant to build B-25s or missiles or whatever is the next war production product in our current age of military weapons?
Again, that wasn't a "voluntary" conversion. And, as others already pointed out, GM, Ford and Chrysler did pretty well making war goods for the US armed services.
Would we see the Mercedes company converting the Alabama plant (am I right that they located there at great expense?) converting to produce tanks to roll over the Vaterland's hills and forests? Or would that plant be closed and damaged to make it unusable?
Highly unlikely that any damage of any significance would occur, because conflicts such as the one you describe don't arise overnight, and certainly precautions would be taken to prevent damage as you described. Wouldn't that fall under Homeland Security?
I remember the Carter days...I was looking for a job out of college then. I did get one, at slightly higher pay than I expected, about 3 1/2 mos. after graduation. I did work manual labor that summer. My grades were nothing to brag about. And my new 'professional' job was in Cleveland, OH.
I would venture to say that someone in my same position then would not be as lucky today.
Many people I've spoken to consider this economy, employment-wise, to be much worse than 1980 or '82 or '83. I think much of it has to do with things not being manufactured here--or not nearly as much as even back in the early '80's. I'm afraid it's mostly too far to try and go back, plus folks in general have a short memory and shop only on price 100%.
Well, I would agree that its had some negative effect, but I have some reservations about using the word catastrophic.
There are lots of factors that have influenced this trend, automation being one of the largest.
Its a multi-tiered and extremely complex issue, and to simply say that "X" is the cause is to over-simplify the issue, IMO.
My grandfather was in the war, serving in the Aleutians. Over the years he owned both German and Japanese cars, although his true love was big Chryslers, it seems many Mopar people seem to be a little more openminded, somehow.
For what it's worth, CR recommends the Chevy Silverado among full-size trucks, replacing the Avalanche from the year before. Any good news about GM seems unpopular here though.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/02/consumer-reports-names-chevrolet-silverado-- as-a-top-pick-for-2010.html
Well we need to admit that in the eyes of many (too many) consumers, GM is a highly damaged brand. IMHO they made a big mistake in not renaming the company after BK. They have not made enough of a break with the past. Hyundai is changing big time and so is Ford. I don't see as much from GM - more like incremental improvements. And their marketing is still overhyped while their products are still trying to catch up. They still have a lot of junkers in their lineup.
Umm, wait, what was the point I was trying to make, again? :P
That's great, but at the time, I wasn't looking at trucks. I wanted a fullsize SUV. I was disappointed in the redesigned Suburban/Tahoe. I know they still lead in sales, but I don't understand why. I wanted flat fold 3rd row, along with a 3rd row that actually has some leg room. I didn't want another 5.3/4speed combo. It's too anemic for towing. They use the 6speed now, but back in 07 and 08 it wasn't available in a Tahoe or Suburban.
I test drove a Yukon XL 3/4 ton with the 6.0L, but it was horrible. Poorly assembled, rode and drove way to crudely for my tastes and the 6.0L/4speed combo felt slower than the 5.3 in my 1/2 ton suburban. Not to mention that combo was a huge gas hog.
I was interested in the 6.2/6peed powered Denali's but once again, I was not impressed with how they drove. IMO, the suspension was to soft, the steering to vague, and once again fit n finish was less than impressive (rattles, inconsistent panel gaps, door moldings that were noticeably misaligned). Plus they didn't have a tow rating any higher than my '00 1/2 ton Suburban.
At that point I was looking for a low mileage used Armada or Sequoia when I stumbled on my Expedition. The Ford wasn't on my radar at all. I happened to see it at a Chevy/Caddy dealer and it caught my eye. I decided to test drive it, as I'd driven about everything else, so I figured why not. I was immediately impressed with how responsive and tight the chassis was. I liked the quickness and on center steering response, it was much better than any SUV I've drive except for maybe the Armada. It was exceptionally quiet and smooth. It had all the options I wanted (which was a big deal since I was looking at used 1 year old SUVs). It had the h/d towing package along with 3.73 gears and a 6 speed trans. The price was thousands less than any of the other SUV's I was looking at, so it ended up being in my garage. It tows great, get's decent enough fuel economy, and has been fairly reliable. Rattles have stayed in check too. We'll see if that continues, as I'm approaching 73k miles already. Still on the original tires and brakes, though I'll replace both by winter.
Man have times changed!
Man have times changed!
Well, you can always buy a Harley;)
I'm aware of where you live from prior posts, but if you lived in the northeast (my small hometown for one), or many medium-sized cities in the midwest, I think you'd share my 'catastrophic' opinion.
I'm guessing this is probably OK amongst some of the posters here since... well... it's just a fluke in the GM history books of perfection. :sick:
I live in east central Illinois and I don't see it a catastrophic in regards to manufacturing. I know far more people laid off from the construction trades. I personally know several union equipment operators, iron workers, carpenters, and general contractors that are seriously hurting, many haven't had work since last fall. The only people I know that's been laid off from a manufacturer is my cousin and her husband who were laid off from Lear (supplier). Ironically, her husband was able to get a job at US Steel that paid significantly more than me made a Lear and now she gets to stay home with the kids.
A friend of mine who owns a machine shop locally is complaining of to much work. He told me over the weekend he has a huge back log of orders and that business is the best he's seen in over 5 years.
I know over towards Decatur and Peoria things are pretty bad, but Cat is hiring some people back.
Car beside it is a Volga, which was strongly influenced by the 53 Ford - Soviet engineers actually imported a 53 Ford via Finland and used it as a benchmark. Communism doesn't breed creativity. And 40 years or so later, the red Chinese would start making ridiculous copies of western cars. Funny.
Or ingenuity, they acquired a few of our planes too.
And 40 years or so later, the red Chinese would start making ridiculous copies of western cars. Funny.
And ridiculous they are.
I completely understand. And, as bad as you see it, think about if you were living in one of the DHL hub localities that closed recently, some of which had DHL as the primary employer.
But, there are 2 issues at play here. One is job loss/slow job growth, and another is the cause(s) of that phenomenon.
Growing up, we had a milk deliveryman, and a gas station attendant pumped gas. Neither of those jobs were exported, yet they no longer exist. I don't know of any high-volume automaker that uses people to paint cars today (other than Porche)...they are all painted by robots. Those jobs weren't lost to outsourcing.
Most "repairmen" today are no more than "parts swappers". It was completely different 40 years ago...repairmen actually repaired things.
That's why I say for someone to blame the current situation solely on outsourcing alone is putting forth a red herring.
I see the US more in a "big picture" format, well, because that's what it is. One point on a graph doesn't make a trend, but there is no question that employment is a critical issue today.
To me, catastrophic is the Great Depression, when you saw men sitting on a hilltop overlooking the construction of the San Franciso Bay Bridge, watching through binoculars hoping to see someone fall so that they could run down and try to get his job... or, men jumping out of office buildings.
If we get there, I'll accept the term "catastrophic".
If we get there, I'll accept the term "catastrophic".
That's pretty much how I see it. At the same time, I'm not at all happy with the direction we are going.
Overall, that would be my guess.
The fact that the facilities remained active and in production proves the point I was attempting to make, regardless when the actual takeover occurred. So, if we were to find ourself at war with, say Japan, Nissan facilities in Mississippi would most likely be acquired by the US government for possible war-related production (or assigned to a war materials industry player).
And, you may also be correct on the Triumph issue, but I do know that the Triumph designs were manufactured and used by the German army in WWII (and, I doubt under license agreement from Triumph in England).
And yet the Germans killed far more of us than the Japanese did.
Army Battle Casualties by Theater of Operations
Note that these numbers are only for the Army. The best numbers that I can find for the Navy/Marines are here. They show a total of 54,600 battle deaths, the majority of which occurred in the Pacific TO.
This shouldn't surprise anyone. Japan was a comparatively poor country that gambled everything on a surprise strike against Pearl Harbor. As the architect of this attack, Admiral Yamamoto, pointed out to his colleagues, Japan had to bring the war to a successful conclusion within a year. After that, superior U.S. production would make Japanese defeat inevitable.
Germany, on the other hand, was the world's number 2 industrial power with the most powerful army on the planet. (Some military historians consider the Wehrmacht on the eve of the invasion of the USSR to be simply the most formidable ground force in history.) If not for Hitler's foolish decision to send the bulk of his army into the Soviet Union, it's possible that the best we could have hoped for in Europe was a stalemate.
That's why I find it a bit odd that many of us seem to be easier on the Germans than we are on the Japanese. Is it because most of us here are of European descent?
Just wondering.
Just wondering.
The Japanese on the west coast were interned in camps....Most likely because, unlike the Germans and Italians, they had not yet blended into the general population pool (they remained isolated and segregated, for the most part), and they were easier to identify by their facial features. On the other hand, a German looked exactly like any other Western European.
Another possibility... The suicide mentality held by the Bushido Samurai-following Japanses soldier. Frankly, many in the US simply thought the Japanese were crazy and could never be reasoned with. On the other hand, 1000's of German soldiers surrendered and were able to interface with many in the US forces (without having a weapon pointed at them). Stories abound of German soldiers showing Allied soldiers family pictures once in custody, which was a rare event for the Japanese, and it wasn't unusual for GI's to be invited for a meal at a German's house (regardless of the non-frat policies in place at the time).
And, there are several other differences.
For my father-in-law, it was simply the sneak attack that toasted him. He'd be alive today if he was convinced a Japanese funeral home was going to be the one taking care of his remains!
Old
Natives
Think
It's
A
Cadillac
I know, that's just plain wrong.............. :sick:
And, most economists would agree that what caused the real estate collapse had nothing to do with not buying American, and everything with overspeculation and extremely (maybe even criminal) loaning practices."
But, Couldn't one say that the root cause of the mess we are in, both from a financial and jobs standpoint is that investors were TOO hung up on trying to make money from money, as opposed to making money from products and services?
You may indeed be onto something.
Before the dot-com bust, most small start-up companies that I was aware of had a legitimate business plan that explained how the company would provide goods/services to make money.
Soon after that, many of the start-ups I was asked to look at pretty much intended to make money off of the business plan itself...ie, get investment cash and then unload the operation to an unsuspecting "sucker" before he realized the plan wouldn't actually generate a profit.... well before the seed cash ran out. The plan itself never actually showed how the startup was to turn a profit.
So, in a real sense, I think you're correct.
And indeed, if WW2 was to take place again with a modern industrial structure, those foreign factories on US soil would be put to use building machinery to defeat their (ex) owners, just as the German operations of Ford and GM were used after the outbreak of the real war.
If one is to not buy from a company linked to past crimes or injustice, they will be walking on shoes they made themselves, or riding a (non-Chinese) bike at best.