just wanted to add...the thing might be a great car, overall. And I've heard nothing but praise for the thing. But, I just don't like the way it looks! But, as Consumer Reports once said, about one 1958 car or another, "Handsome is as Handsome does". Which I think means you can look great, but still suck. :P
I'm actually not that crazy about the style of the Genesis coupe either, although I hear overall, it's a pretty awesome car. However, I do find some Hyundais to be pretty attractive. I think the Genesis sedan looks nice, as well as the Azera, and the old XG300/350 looked good. And the previous two generations of Sonata were pretty good looking, I thought. And the Tiburon, after the restyle, was pretty sexy, I thought. Looked kinda like a poor man's Supra.
Show just the side view, IMO that face is far from pretty. Huge exaggerated light clusters are lazy design, and styling isn't something that is always superior in volume.
Coupe isn't bad (although the front end is a little overstyled too), I've grown to like the beltline dip...sadly it appears to be all for show as the visibility inside is nothing exceptional.
Those Tiburons are amusing, shows how much Hyundai has learned in a decade...a lesson for everyone that progress is possible.
Your pictures are too big; they've cut off the right edge of every post on the page. I can't even see the reply button, so I've had to start a new thread.
Would you please delete these pictures & repost a more suitable size?
The competitive landscape of the past couple of decades, with wide-open importing, is what has forced the Big Three to source parts in other countries.
Meanwhile, the most US-sourced vehicle is the Toyota Camry.
No fair... Attempting to confuse the issue by using facts....
That's not too far off! Actually, that gave me a flashback to that old dude with the '69 Catalina that parked next to me at the GM show, and was coming too close for comfort in his Hoveround!
"Insisting that union-made vehicles be purchased over non-union is practically 'un-American' in its push to restrict freedom of consumer choice over what products fit best for an individual's needs. That freedom of choice is what has led to the U.S. automakers' downfall and recent rebirth, as for several decades, consumers chose foreign-brand product over what domestic automakers have even admitted was inferior product."
The UAW ought to be pressuring domestic automakers to build cars people want and that compete with Camrys and other popular foreign models (many of which are made in the U.S.). If they succeeded, they wouldn't have to worry so much about people buying non-union vehicles.
Perhaps, too, they should look at their own house to see why it is that they've been spectacularly unsuccessful in organizing the U.S. plants of foreign automotive companies.
Spectacular failure looks like it will repeat itself. :lemon:
For some reason, I feel like I've made this same explanation over...and over...and over...
When I choose to buy a domestically-assembled car, that means assembled in the U.S. , not Canada. It isn't me who makes the content labels. Apparently someone besides me doesn't link Canada with Mexico. Probably because it is manufacturing in Mexico that has hurt the American working man. (and I'm Republican, believe it or not, and have no family who ever worked a UAW job). I mean, don't act surprised, Mexico is basically a third-world country. Big Three cars were manufactured in Canada and sold in the States forty years ago, when the U.S. industry was doing great. Not the case now...and more of the blame goes to manufacturing in Mexico (which honestly began in earnest in the mid'90's) than having built in Canada for decades...and decades...and decades.
For those giddy about the Camry having such high North American content (and their content label will include Canada but not Mexico, too), whether we care or not, the Big Three have humongous legacy costs the Japanese and Koreans don't. But come on, Toyota is still a Japanese company. Hell, one of the "Toyoda" family is still at the top....and his recent stunts would make the worst of Henry Ford I look good (almost).
Not every Big Three car has high foreign content and is built in Canada or Mexico. It's really rather easy to read the labels. I would prefer to see somebody buy a Camry built here than another Toyota model built in Japan, that's for certain. Since they no longer build the Camry Solara, which was never built here, that has what has put the Camry so much higher up the domestic-content list than it was just a couple or three short years ago.
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Not every Big Three car has high foreign content and is built in Canada or Mexico. It's really rather easy to read the labels. I would prefer to see somebody buy a Camry built here than another Toyota model built in Japan, that's for certain.
But would you rather buy a US-built Camry than a Mexican built Fusion? That is the key question.
"......I'm sure they'd love to work provided the pay is decent and the benefits are good. Otherwise, they are better off on welfare. "
Therein lies the dilemma that I was trying to describe to Bob. Like I said, there will ALWAYS be a certain amount of people that will try to milk the system no matter what. Our tax dollars are probably better spent keeping them in the ghettos...... fed, housed, clothed and drugged up.....as we won't have to deal with them. They can piss and moan all they want, but it is still up to them.......take what "we" offer or make yourself productive.
The big problem for the others is those jobs that pay decent and have good bennies. Where are they??? Other countries. Take someone off welfare and give them a job.....any job......they lose welfare. I dunno about Sec. 8 housing, though. If they do lose it, how do you pay for that $800/mo public housing rent in the ghetto on $8/hr???
The more I look at it, the more I see our lives mimicking Professional sports:
No.1. Sports are no longer a game or a pasttime. They are a business. Well, life is no longer "life" . It too has become a business. Nobody does anything unless there is a worthwhile gain from that investment (example, if you get X from the gov't for doing nothing, would you "invest" 40 hours of your life every week for an extra $25?)
No.2. Nobody makes "average" wages anymore. If the average salary in Baseball is $4 million, who makes that? Almost nobody. Either they make over $8 mil, or under $2 mil. There is becoming too large of a wage gap in society today. The average salary is over $22/hr, but the mean salary is just under $18/hr. That means half of this country makes less than 20% less than the average salary. What incentive is there to get off your duff if you don't have to??
I don't think it means "buying" Chinese engines, just engines will be codeveloped for both markets by both companies. They could be built here for use here.
"......Engineering and development of the new engine will be carried out jointly by GM and SAIC engineers in Detroit and at the Pan Asia Technical Automotive Center (PATAC), the automakers' engineering and design joint venture in Shanghai."
".....I completely agree. Why do some excuse the Canada-made items, yet blast the Mexican ones? "
While I don't excuse "Canadian Built" , I think I can accept it to this extent;
1)The Canadians actually purchase those goods that they make for us because;
2) They make a wage that is comparable to ours.
Combined, both my points at least leave me feeling that the cars weren't built there just for the sake of putting extra monies in the Board of Directors pockets.
I would, however be curious to see how many units are built in Canada vs sold there, as opposed to how many units are built in Mexico and sold there.
You might be surprised. The output of the Canadian auto industry is almost entirely for Canadian and US consumption, but the Mexican auto industry exports quite a bit to other Latin American countries (mostly models that aren't sold here), in addition to domestic use and the models that do get sent up this way.
For some reason, I feel like I've made this same explanation over...and over...and over...
When I choose to buy a domestically-assembled car, that means assembled in the U.S. , not Canada. It isn't me who makes the content labels. Apparently someone besides me doesn't link Canada with Mexico. ...
Well, this is from your earlier posting. Notice the "U.S. and Canada on the sourcing labels" part.
I choose domestic-built product from a U.S. corporation with high NA content--which means U.S. and Canada on the sourcing labels.
If there is some confusion, it seems to be from your explanation that attempts to say 2 things at once that aren't exactly compatible.
Once again, Mexico is also in North America. And, like Canada, neither one is in any way part of the US.
As anyone else, you should buy whatever product you prefer made by whatever manufacturer you prefer. You just appear to have a biased outlook that you aren't willing to admit to having.
The sourcing label means parts sourcing...and everybody's label links U.S. and Canada, not Mexico. Point of assembly is also on the label but that's not considered 'sourcing' (at least to me). That means 'sourcing of parts'.
As always. lots of opinions posing as 'absolutes' in this forum. It's a preference to me, but a 'bias' to you. A classic example of these absolutes is when I posted earlier that GM's powertrain warranty is better than Ford's (40K more miles). That point, in itself, is not debatable. It is better. But the discussion instantly digressed to, "You'll need it more than on the Ford" (utter speculation only) to "Yeah, and that warranty wouldn't be anything without the government's intervention", to which I say, "But it's the warranty, it's longer" Nothing else in a discussion of warranties really matters, does it, when we're just talking a declaration of fact. Anything else seems to be posturing.
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The sourcing label means parts sourcing...and everybody's label links U.S. and Canada, not Mexico. Point of assembly is also on the label but that's not considered 'sourcing' (at least to me). That means 'sourcing of parts'.
Wow...That comment sounds a lot like "posturing". (See your comment below).
As always. lots of opinions posing as 'absolutes' in this forum. It's a preference to me, but a 'bias' to you. A classic example of these absolutes is when I posted earlier that GM's powertrain warranty is better than Ford's (40K more miles). That point, in itself, is not debatable. It is better. But the discussion instantly digressed to, "You'll need it more than on the Ford" (utter speculation only) to "Yeah, and that warranty wouldn't be anything without the government's intervention", to which I say, "But it's the warranty, it's longer" Nothing else in a discussion of warranties really matters, does it, when we're just talking a declaration of fact. Anything else seems to be posturing.
Again, nothing more than additional "posturing" on your part. You are simply attempting to justify your reasoning based on an "absolute", ie... a warranty is a warranty is a warranty....regardless whether or not the company has the ability to fulfill its warranty.
Tell you what....Send me $1 million and I'll GUARANTEE I'll double your money in a month. Anyone doing so would be a fool, wouldn't you agree? But, hey, its a warranty. I'll even give it to you in writing.
As I stated earlier, you should buy what YOU think is the correct purchase for YOU.
But, as you said, facts are different than posturing, and its a FACT that the GM warranty (pre-bankruptcy) would have been absolutely WORTHLESS without the government provided bailout. You can color that fact any way you wish, but in the end, ANY company that cannot maintain the suitable financial structure to support its warranty is only HOPING (at best) it can fulfill it or outright telling a lie if it knows it can't.... and, GM pretty much knew it couldn't survive without government intervention. Again, a FACT.
You prefer US based automakers...I get it. That's perfectly OK.
There are many others that think as you do. Unfortunately, the US automakers are international today (as are ALL large automakers), and they don't let little details such as "country of origin" get in the way of producing a profit.
For those who continue to believe that "Buying American" is the way to go (from a patriotic standpoint), I can only say they really don't have a very good grasp on the reality of how modern corporations work in today's world. However, if the US branded product is indeed the best choice for you, because it fits your needs the best, then it is the correct choice.
'The warranty wouldn't have been worth anything had the government not intervened'.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Right now--which is when I'm talking--the warranty is better.
Your points are well-taken, but I guess the bottom-line to me on this forum is, the folks who take the 'Buy American' stand seem to deal less in absolutes ('anything but gm', 'Rentabu', 'you'll need the longer warranty', that kind of thing), and points seemed to be addressed instead of wild offshoots. Another example is, in response to a poster's declarative statement that Honda transmission problems 'don't happen', I posted that he should look at the 1,600 posts about Odyssey trans issues on edmunds, and I reiterated that I had a minor transmission problem handled under warranty on a Chevy while a coworker's Honda had trans issues and the 'goodwill' gesture was that he only had to pay $1,800. Instead of any comments regarding that, the entire response post was, "You already posted that in another forum; you shouldn't cross post". I notice this person says nothing when the same pro-Hyundai person posts the same photo of a new Hyundai model multiple times.
You're not seeing pro-American folks here calling themselves "Anything but Toyota", "SuperSmarty", and talking about "Rentacamrys", etc. etc. etc.
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'The warranty wouldn't have been worth anything had the government not intervened'.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Right now--which is when I'm talking--the warranty is better.
Well, the simple fact is this... When Chrysler & GM were bailed out, their "warranty" immediately converted into a taxpayer obligation. There is a possibility it will not remain that way, but we aren't there yet.
Imagine this scenario... Your neighbor runs a business, and lives well beyond his means (GM). Even though he knows he can never keep his promise (warranty), he continues to tell his creditors he will repay them in full.
One fine day, a man from the government knocks on your door, and when you answer, he informs you that everyone in your neighborhood is now on the hook to pay whatever debts your neighbor promised to pay. You have absolutely no choice in the matter whatsoever.
Right now, your neighbor is continuing to make his debt payments, but you don't know if or for how long that will continue.
At the point you answered the door, his "warranty" became your debt "obligation". And, that is exactly what happend with GM & Chrysler.
Its one thing to help a small guy in trouble, but to help the biggest guy of all is quite a different story.
We appear to have up-ended the traditional logic of business in the US. Screw the little guy, but do whatever it takes to help out the big guy, because he's "too big to fail". That logic leads straight to the poor house.
Your points are well-taken, but I guess the bottom-line to me on this forum is, the folks who take the 'Buy American' stand seem to deal less in absolutes ('anything but gm', 'Rentabu', 'you'll need the longer warranty', that kind of thing), and points seemed to be addressed instead of wild offshoots.
I understand what you are saying, but I look at these forums much more objectively, as I don't have a preferred "dog" in this "hunt". I see bias on both sides.
Let's face it... EVERY automaker makes their share of lemons. Not one is immune to bad engineering or failure. Every now and then, a real winner emerges for a while. Go to the Toyota thread and you can see exactly the reverse of your comment above.
There is little question that the Big-3 got very, VERY sloppy in the 70's and 80's with its product and production. Today, IMO, they have some pretty good product available (but, like all others, they aren't batting 1000).
The REAL issue I have with GM is that, for years and years, it knew what was happening...yet, it continues on down the path of doom with no regard to tomorrow. Capt. Smith of the Titanic knew there were icebergs out there somewhere, but didn't realize exactly where until it was too late. GM, on the other hand, has known for years EXACTLY where ithe icebergs were, and has continued to steer straight towards them until contact was made.
I might cut them a bit more slack if there had been a total re-vamping of the management team there, but it was nothing more than a light touch-up.
I believe it was the Duke of Wellington that made the statement in war... "They came at us in the same old way, and we killed them in the same old way". And, as long as the US government guarantees a "no-fail" scenario, its most likely going to remain that way.
That's my opinion of GM's management. Yes, they have swapped figure-heads recently, just like the old USSR replaced leaders after Leonid Brezhnev, but it took a real outside thinker like Gorbachev to institute real changes in the regime.
As I read the paper and see how governments/schools are complaining about not having enough revenue, I wonder if these leaders and educated people are really understanding why? Spending ourselves right out of our jobs.. Why can't Americans see this? understand this concept? Demand American labor/goods and services. We are all connected in this economy. Example - I was looking at a store for some packing tape. The Chinese brand was $.10 less than the American brand. I paid the extra dime for the American brand. This is where it begins. Send a message with your money.
Governments and schools mainly don't have enough revenue because the union employees are robbing us blind with benefits and pensions. Just like the UAW. It has nothing to do with buying American cars.
Governments and schools mainly don't have enough revenue because the union employees are robbing us blind with benefits and pensions.
I think I read somewhere that New Hampshire invests the least amount of money of all the states. Or, if not the least, they're near the bottom. Yet, their students tend to score among the best in the country. Meanwhile, states ilke California, who invest the most into the public schools, often end up with the worst-scoring students.
How much money you throw at the schools, or government, really has very little bearing on performance and quality. It all boils down to how wisely they use the money they have.
>How much money you throw at the schools, or government, really has very little bearing on performance and quality. It all boils down to how wisely they use the money they have
I totally disagree.
The outcome of education is a representation of the sociology of the community. If you have single family households, primarily in the entitlement receiving attitude genre, if you have lower incomes, if you have households where parents don't have college degree, and if you can trace more than one generation of entitlement attitude, you are going to have lower value placed on learning in the schools.
It's chic for a few partisans to try to blame schools for the cost of education, but it's actually more a function of the political climate in the state. I can show you schools within 40 miles of here where the incomes are relatively low, but two parent households, value on education, and value on discipline in the schools is the norm that rank among the best in the state. I can show you schools where the income is relatively high but the value system is dependency and entitlement and lack of respect for law enforcement or for society's rules and they are the worst in the state of Ohio for testing outcomes.
It's not a matter of wise use of money, nor of the values of Republicans nor of Democrat regimes that effects good education; you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Not sure how this got started in tlong's post, but the general attitude of blaming someone or something unrelated is just like the excuses for not buying US brands.
Well, okay, there's a lot more to it than just how much money is thrown at education. Let me re-phrase...you can't judge how good a public school system is, simply by how much money is invested in it. Is that better?
BTW, on the whole made in America thing, I just got a new pair of boots the other day, from a company called Double-H. Believe it or not, the damn things are made in America!!
How much money you throw at the schools, or government, really has very little bearing on performance and quality. It all boils down to how wisely they use the money they have
I agree to a point as it depends how you allocate the funds. I guarantee if you double the teachers salary's and build a new $100 million school, you won't double the test scores.
Like Imid said, it really depends on the community. My sister teaches 3rd grade in a poor community in Kansas City. She has kids this year than can hardly read, write, and count. At her teacher/parent orientation meetings at the beginning of each school year, she's lucky to have 5 parent's show up out of a class of 25.
It's chic for a few partisans to try to blame schools for the cost of education, but it's actually more a function of the political climate in the state. I can show you schools within 40 miles of here where the incomes are relatively low, but two parent households, value on education, and value on discipline in the schools is the norm that rank among the best in the state. I can show you schools where the income is relatively high but the value system is dependency and entitlement and lack of respect for law enforcement or for society's rules and they are the worst in the state of Ohio for testing outcomes.
It's not a matter of wise use of money, nor of the values of Republicans nor of Democrat regimes that effects good education; you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Not sure how this got started in tlong's post, but the general attitude of blaming someone or something unrelated is just like the excuses for not buying US brands.
So you ARE agreeing that amount of money spent is not equal to educational results, right? As you say (and I agree), it depends upon the nature of the students more than the amount of money spent. Flinging more money does not help that much if other things are broken.
This topic started because a poster claimed the governments don't have money because we aren't buying American cars. And that's just not true. Governments have a LOT of money, they just spend much more than they have. Which is irrelevant as to whether I buy a Toyota, BMW, or Ford or GM.
>This topic started because a poster claimed the governments don't have money because we aren't buying American cars. And that's just not true.
Actually you said:
>>"Governments and schools mainly don't have enough revenue because the union employees are robbing us blind with benefits and pensions."
And then a consequential post said that the schools don't spend money wisely.
But there is a limit to how much money is needed to operate an efficient and effective school. However, the community determines the true outcome of the education, more than the teachers and "unions" that you mentioned. That is as long as the proper essentials are in place.
Buying a Honda doesn't help the Washington DC schools. Buying a GM car does help Detroit's schools.
>>"Governments and schools mainly don't have enough revenue because the union employees are robbing us blind with benefits and pensions."
No, ACTUALLY, I was responding to this post by cannon3:
As I read the paper and see how governments/schools are complaining about not having enough revenue, I wonder if these leaders and educated people are really understanding why? Spending ourselves right out of our jobs.. Why can't Americans see this? understand this concept? Demand American labor/goods and services.
And I responded to THAT with your quote above.
Buying a Honda doesn't help the Washington DC schools. Buying a GM car does help Detroit's schools.
Buying a Honda may very well help Ohio schools, or at least bring in Ohio revenue. And buying cars all over the country brings in taxes regardless of the purchased brand.
People talk about how good GM is/was for the economy, when it is clear that it wasn't sustainable. The result is the current state of Detroit -- currently among the most decaying US large cities, and that is largely the result of the UAW along with the stupidity of GM management, among others.
Buying a Honda doesn't help the Washington DC schools. Buying a GM car does help Detroit's schools.
And, buying a BMW X5 or X6 helps fund South Carolina schools, just as buying a Nissan Altima helps fund the schools in Mississippi, and buying a Kia made in GA helps fund the schools there.
If Honda assembled cars in DC, then buying one of those cars WOULD help FUND DC's schools.
I find it amusing that so many that support the "buy American mantra", when it comes to automobiles, don't seem to have any problem at all buying foreign imported textile products, which until recently were primarily made in the southern US. Or any othe product, for that matter.
Or, are there no Wal-Marts in Michigan?
Well, actually.... According to Wal-Mart's web-site...
Supercenter: 185,000 sq. ft. with approx. 142,000 items Discount Store: 108,000 sq. ft. with approx. 120,000 items Neighborhood Market: 42,000 sq. ft. with approx. 29,000 items Sam's Club: 132,000 sq. ft. with approx. 5,500 items
I wonder what % of the items sold there are made in the USA.
I wonder who is buying those items...
What's the old saying?... "What's good for the goose, is good for the gander"...
Buying a Honda doesn't help the Washington DC schools. Buying a GM car does help Detroit's schools.
Buyng a Honda supports these school districts: Alpharetta, GA Power Equipment Headquarters
Auto Zone
Finance
Parts Center
Honda Rider Education Center Anna, OH Engine Plant Honda's largest engine facility in the world, the Anna plant annually produces more than one million L-4 andV-6 engines. Ann Arbor, MI Emissions Lab Cantil, CA Testing Chino, CA Parts Center Colton, CA Honda Rider Education Center Davenport, IA Parts Center Denver, CO Emissions Testing Lab East Liberty, OH Automobile Plant Using Honda's flexible manufacturing, this plant produces cars and light trucks on the same assembly line.
Transportation Research Center (Test Track) Greensboro, NC HondaJet Production Facility
R & D Center Greensburg, IN Automobile Plant Irving, TX Honda Rider Education Center
Parts Center Lincoln, AL Automobile and Engine Plant Opened in 2001, this is our newest North American Automobile Plant, producing the Odyssey minivan, the Pilot and V-6 engine. Longmont, CO Data Center Loudon, TN Parts Center Marysville, OH Motorcycle Plant Honda's first U.S. production facility, the Marysville Motorcycle Plant has produced more than 1.8 million motorcycles and ATVs since 1979.
Automobile Plant One of the most integrated and flexible auto plants in North America, it houses stamping, welding, paint, plastic injection molding and assembly under one roof. Mojave Desert, CA R & D Test Track Mt. Laurel, NJ Parts Center Pasadena, CA Advanced Styling Center Portland, OR Parts Center Raymond, OH R & D Center Russells Point, OH Transmission Plant Santa Clarita, CA Honda Performance Development (Auto Racing) Stockton, CA Parts Center Swepsonville, NC Power Equipment Plant This facility has an annual production capacity of 1.5 million multi-purpose power equipment engines. Tallapoosa, GA Transmission Plant Timmonville, SC All-Terrain Vehicle Plant
Personal Watercraft Plant Honda's primary ATV plant in North America also handles engine assembly under the same roof and, in 2002, opened a second plant for personal watercraft production. Torrance, CA U.S. Sales & Marketing Headquarters
R & D Center
Parts Center Troy, OH Honda Rider Education Center
>And, buying a BMW X5 or X6 helps fund South Carolina schools, just as buying a Nissan Altima helps fund the schools in Mississippi, and buying a Kia made in GA helps fund the schools there.
Comments
Regards,
OW
Coupe isn't bad (although the front end is a little overstyled too), I've grown to like the beltline dip...sadly it appears to be all for show as the visibility inside is nothing exceptional.
Those Tiburons are amusing, shows how much Hyundai has learned in a decade...a lesson for everyone that progress is possible.
link title
BLECH! :sick:
Would you please delete these pictures & repost a more suitable size?
Thanks.
Anythingbutgm , you can park them in an album on your CarSpace page and it will resize them automatically. Then you can link them from there.
Meanwhile, the most US-sourced vehicle is the Toyota Camry.
No fair... Attempting to confuse the issue by using facts....
Outsourced
UAW President Has Head Up His Muffler With Drive to Buy Union-Made Vehicles (Green Car Advisor)
Nothing new there.
The UAW ought to be pressuring domestic automakers to build cars people want and that compete with Camrys and other popular foreign models (many of which are made in the U.S.). If they succeeded, they wouldn't have to worry so much about people buying non-union vehicles.
Perhaps, too, they should look at their own house to see why it is that they've been spectacularly unsuccessful in organizing the U.S. plants of foreign automotive companies.
Spectacular failure looks like it will repeat itself. :lemon:
Regards,
OW
When I choose to buy a domestically-assembled car, that means assembled in the U.S. , not Canada. It isn't me who makes the content labels. Apparently someone besides me doesn't link Canada with Mexico. Probably because it is manufacturing in Mexico that has hurt the American working man. (and I'm Republican, believe it or not, and have no family who ever worked a UAW job). I mean, don't act surprised, Mexico is basically a third-world country. Big Three cars were manufactured in Canada and sold in the States forty years ago, when the U.S. industry was doing great. Not the case now...and more of the blame goes to manufacturing in Mexico (which honestly began in earnest in the mid'90's) than having built in Canada for decades...and decades...and decades.
For those giddy about the Camry having such high North American content (and their content label will include Canada but not Mexico, too), whether we care or not, the Big Three have humongous legacy costs the Japanese and Koreans don't. But come on, Toyota is still a Japanese company. Hell, one of the "Toyoda" family is still at the top....and his recent stunts would make the worst of Henry Ford I look good (almost).
Not every Big Three car has high foreign content and is built in Canada or Mexico. It's really rather easy to read the labels. I would prefer to see somebody buy a Camry built here than another Toyota model built in Japan, that's for certain. Since they no longer build the Camry Solara, which was never built here, that has what has put the Camry so much higher up the domestic-content list than it was just a couple or three short years ago.
:P
Regards,
OW
But would you rather buy a US-built Camry than a Mexican built Fusion? That is the key question.
Therein lies the dilemma that I was trying to describe to Bob. Like I said, there will ALWAYS be a certain amount of people that will try to milk the system no matter what. Our tax dollars are probably better spent keeping them in the ghettos...... fed, housed, clothed and drugged up.....as we won't have to deal with them. They can piss and moan all they want, but it is still up to them.......take what "we" offer or make yourself productive.
The big problem for the others is those jobs that pay decent and have good bennies. Where are they??? Other countries. Take someone off welfare and give them a job.....any job......they lose welfare. I dunno about Sec. 8 housing, though. If they do lose it, how do you pay for that $800/mo public housing rent in the ghetto on $8/hr???
The more I look at it, the more I see our lives mimicking Professional sports:
No.1. Sports are no longer a game or a pasttime. They are a business. Well, life is no longer "life" . It too has become a business. Nobody does anything unless there is a worthwhile gain from that investment (example, if you get X from the gov't for doing nothing, would you "invest" 40 hours of your life every week for an extra $25?)
No.2. Nobody makes "average" wages anymore. If the average salary in Baseball is $4 million, who makes that? Almost nobody. Either they make over $8 mil, or under $2 mil. There is becoming too large of a wage gap in society today. The average salary is over $22/hr, but the mean salary is just under $18/hr. That means half of this country makes less than 20% less than the average salary. What incentive is there to get off your duff if you don't have to??
Not too late, ya know.......
Speaking for only myself, I would buy neither.
I'd rather buy a Ford Taurus if I were considering Fords.
"......Engineering and development of the new engine will be carried out jointly by GM and SAIC engineers in Detroit and at the Pan Asia Technical Automotive Center (PATAC), the automakers' engineering and design joint venture in Shanghai."
While I don't excuse "Canadian Built" , I think I can accept it to this extent;
1)The Canadians actually purchase those goods that they make for us because;
2) They make a wage that is comparable to ours.
Combined, both my points at least leave me feeling that the cars weren't built there just for the sake of putting extra monies in the Board of Directors pockets.
I would, however be curious to see how many units are built in Canada vs sold there, as opposed to how many units are built in Mexico and sold there.
When I choose to buy a domestically-assembled car, that means assembled in the U.S. , not Canada. It isn't me who makes the content labels. Apparently someone besides me doesn't link Canada with Mexico.
...
Well, this is from your earlier posting. Notice the "U.S. and Canada on the sourcing labels" part.
I choose domestic-built product from a U.S. corporation with high NA content--which means U.S. and Canada on the sourcing labels.
If there is some confusion, it seems to be from your explanation that attempts to say 2 things at once that aren't exactly compatible.
Once again, Mexico is also in North America. And, like Canada, neither one is in any way part of the US.
As anyone else, you should buy whatever product you prefer made by whatever manufacturer you prefer. You just appear to have a biased outlook that you aren't willing to admit to having.
As always. lots of opinions posing as 'absolutes' in this forum. It's a preference to me, but a 'bias' to you. A classic example of these absolutes is when I posted earlier that GM's powertrain warranty is better than Ford's (40K more miles). That point, in itself, is not debatable. It is better. But the discussion instantly digressed to, "You'll need it more than on the Ford" (utter speculation only) to "Yeah, and that warranty wouldn't be anything without the government's intervention", to which I say, "But it's the warranty, it's longer" Nothing else in a discussion of warranties really matters, does it, when we're just talking a declaration of fact. Anything else seems to be posturing.
Wow...That comment sounds a lot like "posturing". (See your comment below).
As always. lots of opinions posing as 'absolutes' in this forum. It's a preference to me, but a 'bias' to you. A classic example of these absolutes is when I posted earlier that GM's powertrain warranty is better than Ford's (40K more miles). That point, in itself, is not debatable. It is better. But the discussion instantly digressed to, "You'll need it more than on the Ford" (utter speculation only) to "Yeah, and that warranty wouldn't be anything without the government's intervention", to which I say, "But it's the warranty, it's longer" Nothing else in a discussion of warranties really matters, does it, when we're just talking a declaration of fact. Anything else seems to be posturing.
Again, nothing more than additional "posturing" on your part. You are simply attempting to justify your reasoning based on an "absolute", ie... a warranty is a warranty is a warranty....regardless whether or not the company has the ability to fulfill its warranty.
Tell you what....Send me $1 million and I'll GUARANTEE I'll double your money in a month. Anyone doing so would be a fool, wouldn't you agree? But, hey, its a warranty. I'll even give it to you in writing.
As I stated earlier, you should buy what YOU think is the correct purchase for YOU.
But, as you said, facts are different than posturing, and its a FACT that the GM warranty (pre-bankruptcy) would have been absolutely WORTHLESS without the government provided bailout. You can color that fact any way you wish, but in the end, ANY company that cannot maintain the suitable financial structure to support its warranty is only HOPING (at best) it can fulfill it or outright telling a lie if it knows it can't.... and, GM pretty much knew it couldn't survive without government intervention. Again, a FACT.
You prefer US based automakers...I get it. That's perfectly OK.
There are many others that think as you do. Unfortunately, the US automakers are international today (as are ALL large automakers), and they don't let little details such as "country of origin" get in the way of producing a profit.
For those who continue to believe that "Buying American" is the way to go (from a patriotic standpoint), I can only say they really don't have a very good grasp on the reality of how modern corporations work in today's world. However, if the US branded product is indeed the best choice for you, because it fits your needs the best, then it is the correct choice.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Right now--which is when I'm talking--the warranty is better.
Your points are well-taken, but I guess the bottom-line to me on this forum is, the folks who take the 'Buy American' stand seem to deal less in absolutes ('anything but gm', 'Rentabu', 'you'll need the longer warranty', that kind of thing), and points seemed to be addressed instead of wild offshoots. Another example is, in response to a poster's declarative statement that Honda transmission problems 'don't happen', I posted that he should look at the 1,600 posts about Odyssey trans issues on edmunds, and I reiterated that I had a minor transmission problem handled under warranty on a Chevy while a coworker's Honda had trans issues and the 'goodwill' gesture was that he only had to pay $1,800. Instead of any comments regarding that, the entire response post was, "You already posted that in another forum; you shouldn't cross post". I notice this person says nothing when the same pro-Hyundai person posts the same photo of a new Hyundai model multiple times.
You're not seeing pro-American folks here calling themselves "Anything but Toyota", "SuperSmarty", and talking about "Rentacamrys", etc. etc. etc.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Right now--which is when I'm talking--the warranty is better.
Well, the simple fact is this... When Chrysler & GM were bailed out, their "warranty" immediately converted into a taxpayer obligation. There is a possibility it will not remain that way, but we aren't there yet.
Imagine this scenario... Your neighbor runs a business, and lives well beyond his means (GM). Even though he knows he can never keep his promise (warranty), he continues to tell his creditors he will repay them in full.
One fine day, a man from the government knocks on your door, and when you answer, he informs you that everyone in your neighborhood is now on the hook to pay whatever debts your neighbor promised to pay. You have absolutely no choice in the matter whatsoever.
Right now, your neighbor is continuing to make his debt payments, but you don't know if or for how long that will continue.
At the point you answered the door, his "warranty" became your debt "obligation". And, that is exactly what happend with GM & Chrysler.
Its one thing to help a small guy in trouble, but to help the biggest guy of all is quite a different story.
We appear to have up-ended the traditional logic of business in the US. Screw the little guy, but do whatever it takes to help out the big guy, because he's "too big to fail". That logic leads straight to the poor house.
Your points are well-taken, but I guess the bottom-line to me on this forum is, the folks who take the 'Buy American' stand seem to deal less in absolutes ('anything but gm', 'Rentabu', 'you'll need the longer warranty', that kind of thing), and points seemed to be addressed instead of wild offshoots.
I understand what you are saying, but I look at these forums much more objectively, as I don't have a preferred "dog" in this "hunt". I see bias on both sides.
Let's face it... EVERY automaker makes their share of lemons. Not one is immune to bad engineering or failure. Every now and then, a real winner emerges for a while. Go to the Toyota thread and you can see exactly the reverse of your comment above.
There is little question that the Big-3 got very, VERY sloppy in the 70's and 80's with its product and production. Today, IMO, they have some pretty good product available (but, like all others, they aren't batting 1000).
The REAL issue I have with GM is that, for years and years, it knew what was happening...yet, it continues on down the path of doom with no regard to tomorrow. Capt. Smith of the Titanic knew there were icebergs out there somewhere, but didn't realize exactly where until it was too late. GM, on the other hand, has known for years EXACTLY where ithe icebergs were, and has continued to steer straight towards them until contact was made.
I might cut them a bit more slack if there had been a total re-vamping of the management team there, but it was nothing more than a light touch-up.
I believe it was the Duke of Wellington that made the statement in war... "They came at us in the same old way, and we killed them in the same old way". And, as long as the US government guarantees a "no-fail" scenario, its most likely going to remain that way.
That's my opinion of GM's management. Yes, they have swapped figure-heads recently, just like the old USSR replaced leaders after Leonid Brezhnev, but it took a real outside thinker like Gorbachev to institute real changes in the regime.
GM has nothing close except they are at least taking some Captains of success from High- Undie!
THAT is a positive sign. I've said it thousands of posts ago, no touching GM's products for 3-5 years after the C-11. Simple as that IMHO.
1 down, 2 - 4 years left to go......
Regards,
OW
Example - I was looking at a store for some packing tape. The Chinese brand was $.10 less than the American brand. I paid the extra dime for the American brand. This is where it begins. Send a message with your money.
I think I read somewhere that New Hampshire invests the least amount of money of all the states. Or, if not the least, they're near the bottom. Yet, their students tend to score among the best in the country. Meanwhile, states ilke California, who invest the most into the public schools, often end up with the worst-scoring students.
How much money you throw at the schools, or government, really has very little bearing on performance and quality. It all boils down to how wisely they use the money they have.
I totally disagree.
The outcome of education is a representation of the sociology of the community. If you have single family households, primarily in the entitlement receiving attitude genre, if you have lower incomes, if you have households where parents don't have college degree, and if you can trace more than one generation of entitlement attitude, you are going to have lower value placed on learning in the schools.
It's chic for a few partisans to try to blame schools for the cost of education, but it's actually more a function of the political climate in the state. I can show you schools within 40 miles of here where the incomes are relatively low, but two parent households, value on education, and value on discipline in the schools is the norm that rank among the best in the state. I can show you schools where the income is relatively high but the value system is dependency and entitlement and lack of respect for law enforcement or for society's rules and they are the worst in the state of Ohio for testing outcomes.
It's not a matter of wise use of money, nor of the values of Republicans nor of Democrat regimes that effects good education; you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Not sure how this got started in tlong's post, but the general attitude of blaming someone or something unrelated is just like the excuses for not buying US brands.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, okay, there's a lot more to it than just how much money is thrown at education. Let me re-phrase...you can't judge how good a public school system is, simply by how much money is invested in it. Is that better?
BTW, on the whole made in America thing, I just got a new pair of boots the other day, from a company called Double-H. Believe it or not, the damn things are made in America!!
There are lots of choices where by looking at the labels, I can pick the one Made in the USA, and that's what I do.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree to a point as it depends how you allocate the funds. I guarantee if you double the teachers salary's and build a new $100 million school, you won't double the test scores.
Like Imid said, it really depends on the community. My sister teaches 3rd grade in a poor community in Kansas City. She has kids this year than can hardly read, write, and count. At her teacher/parent orientation meetings at the beginning of each school year, she's lucky to have 5 parent's show up out of a class of 25.
It's chic for a few partisans to try to blame schools for the cost of education, but it's actually more a function of the political climate in the state. I can show you schools within 40 miles of here where the incomes are relatively low, but two parent households, value on education, and value on discipline in the schools is the norm that rank among the best in the state. I can show you schools where the income is relatively high but the value system is dependency and entitlement and lack of respect for law enforcement or for society's rules and they are the worst in the state of Ohio for testing outcomes.
It's not a matter of wise use of money, nor of the values of Republicans nor of Democrat regimes that effects good education; you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Not sure how this got started in tlong's post, but the general attitude of blaming someone or something unrelated is just like the excuses for not buying US brands.
So you ARE agreeing that amount of money spent is not equal to educational results, right? As you say (and I agree), it depends upon the nature of the students more than the amount of money spent. Flinging more money does not help that much if other things are broken.
This topic started because a poster claimed the governments don't have money because we aren't buying American cars. And that's just not true. Governments have a LOT of money, they just spend much more than they have. Which is irrelevant as to whether I buy a Toyota, BMW, or Ford or GM.
Actually you said:
>>"Governments and schools mainly don't have enough revenue because the union employees are robbing us blind with benefits and pensions."
And then a consequential post said that the schools don't spend money wisely.
But there is a limit to how much money is needed to operate an efficient and effective school. However, the community determines the true outcome of the education, more than the teachers and "unions" that you mentioned. That is as long as the proper essentials are in place.
Buying a Honda doesn't help the Washington DC schools. Buying a GM car does help Detroit's schools.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It does, as long as it's not made in Canada, Korea, Mexico, Australia, Kansas City, Baltimore, and so on, and so on, et al...
>>"Governments and schools mainly don't have enough revenue because the union employees are robbing us blind with benefits and pensions."
No, ACTUALLY, I was responding to this post by cannon3:
As I read the paper and see how governments/schools are complaining about not having enough revenue, I wonder if these leaders and educated people are really understanding why? Spending ourselves right out of our jobs.. Why can't Americans see this? understand this concept? Demand American labor/goods and services.
And I responded to THAT with your quote above.
Buying a Honda doesn't help the Washington DC schools. Buying a GM car does help Detroit's schools.
Buying a Honda may very well help Ohio schools, or at least bring in Ohio revenue.
And buying cars all over the country brings in taxes regardless of the purchased brand.
People talk about how good GM is/was for the economy, when it is clear that it wasn't sustainable. The result is the current state of Detroit -- currently among the most decaying US large cities, and that is largely the result of the UAW along with the stupidity of GM management, among others.
And, buying a BMW X5 or X6 helps fund South Carolina schools, just as buying a Nissan Altima helps fund the schools in Mississippi, and buying a Kia made in GA helps fund the schools there.
If Honda assembled cars in DC, then buying one of those cars WOULD help FUND DC's schools.
I find it amusing that so many that support the "buy American mantra", when it comes to automobiles, don't seem to have any problem at all buying foreign imported textile products, which until recently were primarily made in the southern US. Or any othe product, for that matter.
Or, are there no Wal-Marts in Michigan?
Well, actually.... According to Wal-Mart's web-site...
Supercenters: 75
Discount Stores: 12
Neighborhood Markets: 0
Sam's Clubs: 26
Distribution Centers: 1
Average store size (national average)
Supercenter: 185,000 sq. ft. with approx. 142,000 items
Discount Store: 108,000 sq. ft. with approx. 120,000 items
Neighborhood Market: 42,000 sq. ft. with approx. 29,000 items
Sam's Club: 132,000 sq. ft. with approx. 5,500 items
I wonder what % of the items sold there are made in the USA.
I wonder who is buying those items...
What's the old saying?... "What's good for the goose, is good for the gander"...
Buyng a Honda supports these school districts:
Alpharetta, GA Power Equipment Headquarters
Auto Zone
Finance
Parts Center
Honda Rider Education Center
Anna, OH Engine Plant
Honda's largest engine facility in the world, the Anna plant annually produces more than one million L-4 andV-6 engines.
Ann Arbor, MI Emissions Lab
Cantil, CA Testing
Chino, CA Parts Center
Colton, CA Honda Rider Education Center
Davenport, IA Parts Center
Denver, CO Emissions Testing Lab
East Liberty, OH Automobile Plant
Using Honda's flexible manufacturing, this plant produces cars and light trucks on the same assembly line.
Transportation Research Center (Test Track)
Greensboro, NC HondaJet Production Facility
R & D Center
Greensburg, IN Automobile Plant
Irving, TX Honda Rider Education Center
Parts Center
Lincoln, AL Automobile and Engine Plant
Opened in 2001, this is our newest North American Automobile Plant, producing the Odyssey minivan, the Pilot and V-6 engine.
Longmont, CO Data Center
Loudon, TN Parts Center
Marysville, OH Motorcycle Plant
Honda's first U.S. production facility, the Marysville Motorcycle Plant has produced more than 1.8 million motorcycles and ATVs since 1979.
Automobile Plant
One of the most integrated and flexible auto plants in North America, it houses stamping, welding, paint, plastic injection molding and assembly under one roof.
Mojave Desert, CA R & D Test Track
Mt. Laurel, NJ Parts Center
Pasadena, CA Advanced Styling Center
Portland, OR Parts Center
Raymond, OH R & D Center
Russells Point, OH Transmission Plant
Santa Clarita, CA Honda Performance Development (Auto Racing)
Stockton, CA Parts Center
Swepsonville, NC Power Equipment Plant
This facility has an annual production capacity of 1.5 million multi-purpose power equipment engines.
Tallapoosa, GA Transmission Plant
Timmonville, SC All-Terrain Vehicle Plant
Personal Watercraft Plant
Honda's primary ATV plant in North America also handles engine assembly under the same roof and, in 2002, opened a second plant for personal watercraft production.
Torrance, CA U.S. Sales & Marketing Headquarters
R & D Center
Parts Center
Troy, OH Honda Rider Education Center
Parts Center
Windsor Lock, CT Parts Center
Regards,
OW
Those are foreign-owned companies.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,