I see nobody will touch the claims and trends in that blurby little article.
That would take hours of research that I don't have the time or energy to perform. In the end I may not be able to dispute the data, but the reasons could be debated all day long. In the end I don't care enough to worry about it. I'm too fat and happy off my Chinese trinkets which my capitalist master has so generously allowed me to acquire;)
Going from 975K to 1010K does not make one depart the middle class. Especially if they started at 900K.
Very few start out with $900k. Just look at the CEO's across america. Most didn't get to where they are by inheriting their CEO spot. They were born middle class and worked their way up. The CEO of the Fortune 500 company my wife works for started out as an intern with no relation to family within the company.
The middle class isn't moving up, most of it is being sent to the execution chamber.
Well show me some data, instead of you usual rant.
I can tell you I personally know 10-15 people that are worth over a million and only one had a nice inheritance.
If the nutjob told me the sky was blue, should I doubt it because a nutjob said it, even if I can see the sky myself?
Of course. If he's a nutjob, then he's perfectly capable of saying "The sky is blue" on a rainy day. That's what it means to be a nutjob - or a LaRouche follower.
Funny that a weirdo like Larouche is lamentable, and the entire "let's open China" cabal of Kissinger and friends have remained free and untouched men.
Why are we jabbering about China here? The topic of this thread is "Buying American Cars - What Does It Mean?". As far as I know, it is not now possible to buy a Chinese car in the U.S. Isn't that true where you live?
The only non-U.S.-built vehicles currently sold in the U.S. market come from the following countries:
Canada Germany Italy Japan Mexico South Korea Sweden United Kingdom
I might have missed a couple. In the early 2000s, for example, BMW assembled cars in South Africa from parts made in Germany & Austria for export to the U.S. I don't think they're still doing this, but I'm not sure.
In any case, China is not now on this list, so any China-specific posts are off-topic. There are political threads where you can go to talk about China.
".....but many folks think that too much $$$ is spent (wasted) on inner city residents who simply keep having more kids to add to the welfare system..."
I think that there is a certain percentage of those that we just have to write off anyhow. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, not even a million dollar lottery ticket, will keep them from doing anything remotely productive. Believe it or not, we can live with that.
I was just saying yesterday to a co-worker while we were at our central office in Providence that is across the street from a housing project that I'd bet if we opened up a business there, we'd get a good number of them to apply for a job. BUT, right or wrong, it would have to be worth their while. MInimum wage wouldn't cut it. No bennies at all wouldn't cut it.
Biggest problem is, those jobs don't exist right now. I really do think that we have to bring some of our more expensive manufacturing jobs back to the USA. We should be making more of our own durable goods, like cars, refrigerators, televisions, gas grilles, lawn mowers and tractors, furniture, etc.
I can't think of any past generation that faced the financial and workplace obligations and demographic nightmares that young people today will see in their lifetimes.
You'd have a hard time finding anyone over the age of 50 who would agree.
I'm old enough to vividly remember 1968, when a half-million of our troops were tied down in a Southeast Asian war while our cities burned, our campuses erupted in riots, prominent political figures were gunned down & Soviet tanks rolled into Prague.
Sorry if I find the crisis du jour to be a bit underwhelming.
Shows amount in $$$ of US debt held by foreign nations.
No one nation owns more than 10% of the US debt.
20+ years ago, if the internet was around we'd still be having this same conversation, but Japan would be the topic. All you heard and read was how Japan owned us. Well, they must have choked on what they ate, as they've had a nasty run for the past 15 years or more.
So one departs the middle class when they become a millionaire? Where do you get this data?
Well, there's a big difference between income and wealth. Someone who makes a million $ per year but blows most of it on a fancy house, cars, vacations, trophy wives/husbands/pool-boys/etc, isn't a millionaire. The second that income dries up, they're toast.
However, someone who has a $M worth of wealth saved up, I'd say they're definitely still middle-class. There's a rule of thumb, possibly outdated now, that if you have $1M saved up, and spend $40K the first year, and then the same every year after but adjust for inflation, it should last about 30 years. Drop that to $30K the first year and adjust each year for inflation, and it would most likely last indefinitely.
But, $30K or even $40K per year will not give you an extravagant lifestyle. Now, if you have a paid-off house, and live a low property tax area, and stay pretty healthy until the day you die, you might live pretty well on that.
FWIW, I think you have to have an income of at least $250K to be in the top 2% of wage earners. In the overal scheme of things, very, very few people earn $1M or more. I think Maryland had around 9500 tax filers in 2007 who had an income of $1M or more, out of a total population of around 5-5.5M. They passed a millionaires tax bracket that took effect in 2008, and suddenly lost 1/3 of their millionaire wage earners! No doubt some people moved out of state or simply changed residency, but I'm sure the recession took out a lot of those wage earners.
Also, one reason there was such a surge in millionaires in 2009 was simply people bouncing back off their 2008 lows. I think the total is still less than what it was back in 2007, when the stock market peaked out.
"The strains on ordinary people mounted. Food prices rose, squalor spread disease through the cities and widespread famine broke out. Soldiers were unpaid, unemployment was rife, and all the while the nobility paid no tax and enjoyed a lifestyle of excess and power, and in 1789 the Revolution broke out."
Well, let's see.... food prices are pretty steady, disease is way down and last I looked there isn't any famine going around in this country - or this continent for that matter. Soldiers are paid well historically. Can't argue unemployment though we are making it darned near impossible to exhaust unemployment benefits. The nobility may not pay as high a tax as we wish but they still provide a huge percentage of our taxes. They do enjoy a lifestyle of excess and power but I can't name a time when they didn't. All in all I'm OK here. For reference I'm about in the middle of the middle class.
I'm old enough to vividly remember 1968, when a half-million of our troops were tied down in a Southeast Asian war while our cities burned, our campuses erupted in riots, prominent political figures were gunned down & Soviet tanks rolled into Prague.
You and me both. My freshman year of high school a guy I'd been in Boy Scouts with (he left at 14 because he discovered girls) died in Vietnam not more than a couple of months of graduating high school.
Come junior year Martin Luther King was killed in April and Bobby Kennedy in June. Riots broke out (you can pick the good guys and the bad guys) at the Democratic National Convention. Not demonstrations - good old head busting riots. Come August and we're on our nice laid back vacation at the Jersey shore only to watch the Soviets roll over Prague. Just to put the cap on it in November they elected Nixon president.
All in all I'll take now. I did like the sound track the 60s came with better though.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Nepotism was never an argument here...it is mostly absent in this oligarchy.
With a few exceptions, you have to have something to make something.
Do you deny the middle class is shrinking? And that this trend is not reversing? Before you rant about asking for data, you would be well advised to be able to define what will suffice.
No offense meant, but I do not care about personal anecdotes too.
I couldn't care less about what the boomers faced - they didn't have the demographic and socio-economic future being faced by younger people today. From the impact of insane immigration to housing affordability to sustainable living wage employment, it is a different ballgame. I don't have any pity for what the boomers experienced...a generation caught up in freedom and liberation-style ideals sure got materialistic and shortsighted not much later...and IMO are responsible for a lot of problems, especially regarding real estate and undefendable undeserved public sector benefit systems that make the UAW look like nothing.
Perhaps some 1968 style tension is needed again...probably the closest the nation has been to revolution since the civil war.
It's funny to think that we enabled virtually all of those olden day crises to begin with. But I guess that one is actually off topic
You have a point. The status of the middle class is definitely on topic for cars. Who is going to buy the lion's share of them?
Sometimes I think middle class is a mindset. In that respect part of me isn't as well off as 10 years ago but some is better. I mean I can see where overall we are doing better but 10 years ago I'd buy a new car and now I buy slightly used. You have to add into the equation that I have two more kids than I did 10 years ago and went from two to four cars. In that respect we're kind of in the middle of the snake as it were. The older ones that I'm covering on cars for now (partially) will at one point before long be on their own.
I'm thinking a bit on the overall middle class. There's no doubt it's trickier to maintain that status these days.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
You're probably right with all of that. No doubt this insane economy is making the numbers difficult to tabulate. If I personally know people who lost 6 figures when the market crashed, there must be a few out there.
I'm not really blaming anyone...but at the same time, I don't have pity for past difficulties and I do see some double standards.
It's also a losing game to say how much easier the youth of today have it, and how the oldsters should have no admission of difficulties. That's really done to death.
People will still be able to buy cars - they will just be made with much cheaper labor sources, and/or financed for longer periods. 20 years ago an 84 month term would be considered lunacy, today they are everywhere.
I see it as simple real incomes shrinking, while housing, medical, education, etc have not.
Oh, I agree. The more you can deal with people as individuals rather than labeling them the better off you are.
I agree that a lot of folks in my generation went from revolutionaries to stockbrokers way too easily. Jerry Rubin was the poster boy for that. His counterpart, Abbe Hoffman tried to stay radical, or at least very to the left of center, and got so frustrated that he killed himself.
The company is making money hand over fist but basically is saying the shareholders need (well, want) the money more than the workers.
I liked this part - With each passing week, the two sides have dug in deeper, doing their utmost to outmaneuver and undercut each other. Rain or shine, dozens of workers picket outside the plant each day, standing alongside a 15-foot-tall inflatable rat and a mock coffin emblazoned with “R.I.P. Corporate Greed.”
We have one of those inflatable rats in town here at the site where they are building a new CVS. I pass it every day on the way to work.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Well for one thing, I think we have to define the middle class. I think there two groups within the middle class. The upper end appears to be doing okay. They tend to have professional degrees and jobs. They also tend to have two high earners.
The other group being lower middle class and they are certainly struggling. Without a degree or trade they don't a lot of options. Those with a trade i.e. plumbing, hvac, electrician, heavy equipment operators, machining etc. Will generally have work. But you don't get these jobs right out of hs either. Many of these trades have lengthy apprenticeships comparable in length to a bachelors program.
But I certainly won't dispute some in the middle class are under serious pressure. I don't think we'll find a solution in the tax code.
"I was just saying yesterday to a co-worker ...I'd bet if we opened up a business there, we'd get a good number of them to apply for a job. BUT, right or wrong, it would have to be worth their while. MInimum wage wouldn't cut it. No bennies at all wouldn't cut it."
That depends...if welfare had no Medicaid and the max welfare payment was 50% of the minimum wage, you might be surprised at the line waiting to apply for a job that actually allowed them to eat...the only reason there are jobs "Americans won't do" is because they get more by leeching the system...fix the system so that they can barely survive at OUR expense and they might actually have a work ethic forced on them...or die from starvation without it...a little toughlove is what we need, too much liberal compassion while stealing my taxes to pay for the worthless, the useless, and the shiftless...
Seems like housing is definitely getting cheaper, particularly in the areas that got real crazy. As long as the government tries to subsidize things like housing, medical, and education. Pricing will remain out of control.
Medical is very complicated. Education is also out of control. Pricing will remain remain inflated as long as the funds are readily available whether it's from loans, grants, or scholarships. The universities seem to be competing on which school has the nicest dorm or rec hall instead of tuition prices.
I live near the university of Illinois. they've built new luxury dorms and there is a waiting list to get in. Crazy.
I wouldn't be surprised of Mott's has execs who have thought of moving that stuff to China or the like. Buying American...its more difficult with each new day.
Buy American???...can we keep unions out or at least under control???...while govt regulations can be onerous and expensive to adhere to, I would think that any company, esp manufacturing, needs to keep its labor costs and pensions under control, or it simply costs too much to make it here...
Pensions are already a done deal...just offer everyone a 401K and let them put their own money away...match some if you want, but young people today need to realize that their elder years are THEIR responsibility and no one else's...not the govt, not their kids, it is their responsibility to start planning financially in their 20s, and putting aside part of their pay in a 401K (and delete social security) will give them 40-plus years to accumulate, thru stock market ups and downs...
Once labor is cost is firmly under control under the benevolent dictatorship of the employer (like that phrase?) then eliminate worthless regulations, keep those regulations that really protect people and the environment...kill racial quotas and kill the Davis Bacon Act...once there is a profit to be made in America, then products might be made in America...
couldn't care less about what the boomers faced - they didn't have the demographic and socio-economic future being faced by younger people today. From the impact of insane immigration to housing affordability to sustainable living wage employment, it is a different ballgame. I don't have any pity for what the boomers experienced...a generation caught up in freedom and liberation-style ideals sure got materialistic and shortsighted not much later...and IMO are responsible for a lot of problems, especially regarding real estate and undefendable undeserved public sector benefit systems that make the UAW look like nothing.
Being an aging boomer I agree that the problems we face now are much worse than in the past. I pin the blame on the advent of the computer, with its subsequent increase in productivity and the lessening of the need for labor that means. Years ago in my business our problem was underproduction. (Sign business). We could not manufacture enough to fill demand. Everyone worked hard, worked overtime, and got paid a decent wage.
Now our problem is overproduction. We can easily produce 5X more product than we sell, with half the number of people as can every shop like ours. The market is saturated in almost every field. 30% of the calls we receive are from companies trying to sell to us... or looking for donations for some sham charity. Look at the overproduction in the auto industry. Good relatively inexpensive vehicles are available from ten or more companies from all over the world. My 2006 Chevy truck cost less new than my old 1992 Ford F150 with less options, but GM lost money on that truck. When sales tanked in 2008 production had to fall in line with demand and a lot of people lost their jobs. Only people employed by government entitities have for the most part been insulated from these strains...for now.
The final nail in the coffin was/is the internet. It's like Capitalism on steroids, and businesses have to worry about global competition in addtion to local. A HD cable that costs $50 in Radio Shack can be had on E-bay for $12. Yet that local store has to charge the $50 because of their sky high rent, electricity, property tax, workman's compensation for emplyees etc...
I say build a time machine, go back and sabatoge all the research that led to the computer age. Take care of that and we would be at full employment. Unfortunately that's impossible so I see protectionism and/or hyperinflation coming. I'd take that over Deflation.
I always knew something was wrong with the economic system when a number of years ago I bought a bicycle, made in China with 20 some speeds, shock absorbers etc, for $80. An unbelievable bargain. That same week I picked up a new pair of glasses which at the time was over $300. How is it that I can buy 4 bicycles with seats, tires,gears, chains, brakes, etc. for the same price as the 3 ounce spectacles sitting on my nose?
I am all in favor of supporting the Ford, GM, Chrysler auto companies that are the US-based companies.
The one monkey wrench is the union problem. And I don't think we're going to solve that here. But the higher cost due to the union workers that the companies are stuck with is going to be the driving factor for some production being in other North American countries.
The imports have lost some of their lustre and poorly held reputation with the Honda transmision and VCM problems and with the Toyota electronic control problems. The GM company has a great start with a large profit in the recent quarter. They will pay back the money when they run IPOs and the US taxpayer will likely make a profit. Ford is doing well.
I couldn't care less about what the boomers faced - they didn't have the demographic and socio-economic future being faced by younger people today. From the impact of insane immigration to housing affordability to sustainable living wage employment, it is a different ballgame.
I get it - you're special!
Doesn't every generation make this claim?
Let's get together in 20 years - if I'm around then - & see if you're right. I'll pay for the beer.
I imagine the eye doctor and tech earns far more than the person assembling the bicycles in China. I purchased a $300 Trek bike for my daughter and it was made in China.
The imports have lost some of their lustre and poorly held reputation with the Honda transmision and VCM problems...
This is fiction. I'm a longtime Honda owner (since 1974) as are many of my friends & colleagues, & I don't know anyone who's had these problems.
They will pay back the money when they run IPOs and the US taxpayer will likely make a profit.
The U.S. taxpayer should never have been asked to take this risk in the 1st place. If you're a hard-core capitalist, you'll agree that companies that screw up, as GM did, should be allowed to fail - the sooner, the better.
You can spin it any way you want to, but when government steps in to prop up a loser, you're taking the 1st step on the road to socialism.
Good thoughts. No doubt computers have created a lot of havoc...labor pool keeps growing but there's less demand, not a nice trend. I don't know when the last time was that new generations had to face this.
I do have a friend who lost the tranny in his 03 Accord (V6) at 70K. But it was fixed under warranty, car now has 140K ish and has been almost flawless since, so he is happy.
For the past 60 or so years the government has been all about helping bottomless money pits.
This is fiction. I'm a longtime Honda owner (since 1974) as are many of my friends & colleagues, & I don't know anyone who's had these problems.
Jim, you clearly don't know anybody who has an Odyssey then. Check out the 1,592 posts on the subject in Edmunds--involving all model years, even very-late model:
I know two people who have Hondas now. One had a trans failure at 70K and Honda's goodwill gesture was to make him "only" pay $1,800. My Chevy van needed a pressure control solenoid in the trans (harsh shifting when warm) and GM did it for nothing a few months ago--at 79K miles--and I don't have an extended warranty.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
There is such a thing as "downward mobility." What I'm seeing is a lot of once middle-class people now becoming the "working poor." I think a lot of middle-class people are deluding themselves thinking some day they'll be part of the elite and identify with the wealthy class. False. They've got far more in common with the guy they despise who's living in the ghetto or the trailer park. Instead of some day becoming one of the elite, they are in reality one paycheck away from the street.
Those inner city people who now live in housing projects once had PLENTY of jobs in factories that manufactured everything from Fleer Bubble Gum to Baldwin Locomotives in Philadelphia. Now they are idled and living self-destructive lives of drug abuse, alcoholism, violence, crime, and immorality. I'm sure they'd love to work provided the pay is decent and the benefits are good. Otherwise, they are better off on welfare. You're not going to attract these people if you offer Wal~Mart wages when welfare and the underground pharmaceutical industry are much more lucrative.
At least the boomers, or perhaps pre-boomers, had the option of getting a job at Bethlehem Steel or GM, working there for 30 odd years, and retiring with a decent pension.
Heck, a young guy was telling me he wanted to get a government job because private industry works him to death and pays him nothing. The average kid entering the workforce today will probably have to live with Mom and Dad until he is 30. How the heck is he going to afford a house or even pay rent unless he wants to live in the 'hood where he'll be shot at or victimized? Add in the fact that he's already paying-off a crushing student loan debt equal to a mortgage for a worthless degree in a profession where all the jobs were shipped to Bangladore. Wow, those IT skills really came in handy working at The Gap. Maybe he can debug the cash register? He'll be starting a family later in life, that is if he is reckless and self-destructive enough to marry and have children.
Those inner city people who now live in housing projects once had PLENTY of jobs in factories that manufactured everything from Fleer Bubble Gum to Baldwin Locomotives in Philadelphia.
Now that's an exaggeration. Public housing has been around since the 30's and their have never been enough manufacturing jobs to employ everyone that needs a job. US manufacturing employment peaked at roughly 21 million jobs in 1979. While that is probably about double what we have now, it certainly isn't enough to keep people out of public housing. Baldwin stopped building locomotives in the 50's. I don't think that was fault of trade policies or off shoring. Some companies just happen to be in the way of progress.
Well, if we focus specifically on CARS, I've done much better than my Dad. However, I didn't get married until I was 44 and don't have children nor will I, so it's a wash.
At least the boomers, or perhaps pre-boomers, had the option of getting a job at Bethlehem Steel or GM, working there for 30 odd years, and retiring with a decent pension.
I grew up around the the steel mills in NW Indiana. Midwest Steel, US Steel, Bethlehem etc. Most of the mills are still there. Some are under different ownership. But I have several friends that graduated from HS between 88-94 that have good jobs at the mill as iron workers and crane operators etc. It's not like they haven't hired anybody in 40 years.
An 84-month term is still lunacy and I still despise a 60-month term! If you can't pay it off in three years, you can't afford it. Heck, my Dad with just a high school diploma and a stint in the Navy could buy and pay off a new Ford in three years or less. Today, a kid with a Master's Degree probably has to finance a Fiesta for 84 months.
Lemko, I don't know, maybe you have to be a certain age, like you and me (I'm 52) to have witnessed the decline of manufacturing in this country and the resulting issues it has caused (not even talking about why it happened). I make a good living, more than my Dad, but no one can tell me that unemployment doesn't affect families, crime, and communities in a negative way. My own opinion is that anybody can make any numbers fit their scenario, but sheesh, just look around! I think it's a safe bet that the steel mills in NW Indiana don't employee anywhere near the numbers employed in the '70's. I'm politically conservative, but at some point one has to say, "enough already". "Teach a man to fish" and all that, and help someone get back on their feet, but let's take care of ourselves first, for gosh sake.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
An 84-month term is still lunacy and I still despise a 60-month term! If you can't pay it off in three years, you can't afford it.
When they're offering 0% for 60 mos, why pay cash. I've not seen any 84 month terms offered around here. But anything over 60 is really nuts. To many good used cars to be had to suffer through an 84 month note on a new car. I'd think the dealers hate it to. That buyer is essentially out of the market for 5-7 years minimum. It's hard to finance someone when they're thousands upside down.
Yecch!!! Chinese applesauce? In addition to rotten apples, I can get my RDA of lead, mercury, and cadmium! Well, I guess that Chinese applesauce could be used as a great paint solvent or pest killer.
Comments
That would take hours of research that I don't have the time or energy to perform. In the end I may not be able to dispute the data, but the reasons could be debated all day long. In the end I don't care enough to worry about it. I'm too fat and happy off my Chinese trinkets which my capitalist master has so generously allowed me to acquire;)
The middle class isn't moving up, most of it is being sent to the execution chamber.
Very few start out with $900k. Just look at the CEO's across america. Most didn't get to where they are by inheriting their CEO spot. They were born middle class and worked their way up. The CEO of the Fortune 500 company my wife works for started out as an intern with no relation to family within the company.
The middle class isn't moving up, most of it is being sent to the execution chamber.
Well show me some data, instead of you usual rant.
I can tell you I personally know 10-15 people that are worth over a million and only one had a nice inheritance.
Of course. If he's a nutjob, then he's perfectly capable of saying "The sky is blue" on a rainy day. That's what it means to be a nutjob - or a LaRouche follower.
Funny that a weirdo like Larouche is lamentable, and the entire "let's open China" cabal of Kissinger and friends have remained free and untouched men.
Why are we jabbering about China here? The topic of this thread is "Buying American Cars - What Does It Mean?". As far as I know, it is not now possible to buy a Chinese car in the U.S. Isn't that true where you live?
The only non-U.S.-built vehicles currently sold in the U.S. market come from the following countries:
Canada
Germany
Italy
Japan
Mexico
South Korea
Sweden
United Kingdom
I might have missed a couple. In the early 2000s, for example, BMW assembled cars in South Africa from parts made in Germany & Austria for export to the U.S. I don't think they're still doing this, but I'm not sure.
In any case, China is not now on this list, so any China-specific posts are off-topic. There are political threads where you can go to talk about China.
I think that there is a certain percentage of those that we just have to write off anyhow. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, not even a million dollar lottery ticket, will keep them from doing anything remotely productive. Believe it or not, we can live with that.
I was just saying yesterday to a co-worker while we were at our central office in Providence that is across the street from a housing project that I'd bet if we opened up a business there, we'd get a good number of them to apply for a job. BUT, right or wrong, it would have to be worth their while. MInimum wage wouldn't cut it. No bennies at all wouldn't cut it.
Biggest problem is, those jobs don't exist right now. I really do think that we have to bring some of our more expensive manufacturing jobs back to the USA. We should be making more of our own durable goods, like cars, refrigerators, televisions, gas grilles, lawn mowers and tractors, furniture, etc.
You'd have a hard time finding anyone over the age of 50 who would agree.
I'm old enough to vividly remember 1968, when a half-million of our troops were tied down in a Southeast Asian war while our cities burned, our campuses erupted in riots, prominent political figures were gunned down & Soviet tanks rolled into Prague.
Sorry if I find the crisis du jour to be a bit underwhelming.
Shows amount in $$$ of US debt held by foreign nations.
No one nation owns more than 10% of the US debt.
http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=272
% of US debt owned by foreign nations.
No one nation owns more than 10% of the US debt.
20+ years ago, if the internet was around we'd still be having this same conversation, but Japan would be the topic. All you heard and read was how Japan owned us. Well, they must have choked on what they ate, as they've had a nasty run for the past 15 years or more.
Well, there's a big difference between income and wealth. Someone who makes a million $ per year but blows most of it on a fancy house, cars, vacations, trophy wives/husbands/pool-boys/etc, isn't a millionaire. The second that income dries up, they're toast.
However, someone who has a $M worth of wealth saved up, I'd say they're definitely still middle-class. There's a rule of thumb, possibly outdated now, that if you have $1M saved up, and spend $40K the first year, and then the same every year after but adjust for inflation, it should last about 30 years. Drop that to $30K the first year and adjust each year for inflation, and it would most likely last indefinitely.
But, $30K or even $40K per year will not give you an extravagant lifestyle. Now, if you have a paid-off house, and live a low property tax area, and stay pretty healthy until the day you die, you might live pretty well on that.
FWIW, I think you have to have an income of at least $250K to be in the top 2% of wage earners. In the overal scheme of things, very, very few people earn $1M or more. I think Maryland had around 9500 tax filers in 2007 who had an income of $1M or more, out of a total population of around 5-5.5M. They passed a millionaires tax bracket that took effect in 2008, and suddenly lost 1/3 of their millionaire wage earners! No doubt some people moved out of state or simply changed residency, but I'm sure the recession took out a lot of those wage earners.
Also, one reason there was such a surge in millionaires in 2009 was simply people bouncing back off their 2008 lows. I think the total is still less than what it was back in 2007, when the stock market peaked out.
Well, let's see.... food prices are pretty steady, disease is way down and last I looked there isn't any famine going around in this country - or this continent for that matter. Soldiers are paid well historically. Can't argue unemployment though we are making it darned near impossible to exhaust unemployment benefits. The nobility may not pay as high a tax as we wish but they still provide a huge percentage of our taxes. They do enjoy a lifestyle of excess and power but I can't name a time when they didn't. All in all I'm OK here. For reference I'm about in the middle of the middle class.
I'm old enough to vividly remember 1968, when a half-million of our troops were tied down in a Southeast Asian war while our cities burned, our campuses erupted in riots, prominent political figures were gunned down & Soviet tanks rolled into Prague.
You and me both. My freshman year of high school a guy I'd been in Boy Scouts with (he left at 14 because he discovered girls) died in Vietnam not more than a couple of months of graduating high school.
Come junior year Martin Luther King was killed in April and Bobby Kennedy in June. Riots broke out (you can pick the good guys and the bad guys) at the Democratic National Convention. Not demonstrations - good old head busting riots. Come August and we're on our nice laid back vacation at the Jersey shore only to watch the Soviets roll over Prague. Just to put the cap on it in November they elected Nixon president.
All in all I'll take now. I did like the sound track the 60s came with better though.
With a few exceptions, you have to have something to make something.
Do you deny the middle class is shrinking? And that this trend is not reversing? Before you rant about asking for data, you would be well advised to be able to define what will suffice.
No offense meant, but I do not care about personal anecdotes too.
The outsourcing to China of the American industrial base by "free marketeer" criminals is linked to the topic of buying domestically.
You aren't a moderator, but thanks for your concern.
Perhaps some 1968 style tension is needed again...probably the closest the nation has been to revolution since the civil war.
It's funny to think that we enabled virtually all of those olden day crises to begin with. But I guess that one is actually off topic
Sometimes I think middle class is a mindset. In that respect part of me isn't as well off as 10 years ago but some is better. I mean I can see where overall we are doing better but 10 years ago I'd buy a new car and now I buy slightly used. You have to add into the equation that I have two more kids than I did 10 years ago and went from two to four cars. In that respect we're kind of in the middle of the snake as it were. The older ones that I'm covering on cars for now (partially) will at one point before long be on their own.
I'm thinking a bit on the overall middle class. There's no doubt it's trickier to maintain that status these days.
It's also a losing game to say how much easier the youth of today have it, and how the oldsters should have no admission of difficulties. That's really done to death.
I see it as simple real incomes shrinking, while housing, medical, education, etc have not.
I agree that a lot of folks in my generation went from revolutionaries to stockbrokers way too easily. Jerry Rubin was the poster boy for that. His counterpart, Abbe Hoffman tried to stay radical, or at least very to the left of center, and got so frustrated that he killed himself.
Anyway, how's this for a labor situation? In Mott’s Strike, More Than Pay at Stake.
The company is making money hand over fist but basically is saying the shareholders need (well, want) the money more than the workers.
I liked this part - With each passing week, the two sides have dug in deeper, doing their utmost to outmaneuver and undercut each other. Rain or shine, dozens of workers picket outside the plant each day, standing alongside a 15-foot-tall inflatable rat and a mock coffin emblazoned with “R.I.P. Corporate Greed.”
We have one of those inflatable rats in town here at the site where they are building a new CVS. I pass it every day on the way to work.
The other group being lower middle class and they are certainly struggling. Without a degree or trade they don't a lot of options. Those with a trade i.e. plumbing, hvac, electrician, heavy equipment operators, machining etc. Will generally have work. But you don't get these jobs right out of hs either. Many of these trades have lengthy apprenticeships comparable in length to a bachelors program.
But I certainly won't dispute some in the middle class are under serious pressure. I don't think we'll find a solution in the tax code.
That depends...if welfare had no Medicaid and the max welfare payment was 50% of the minimum wage, you might be surprised at the line waiting to apply for a job that actually allowed them to eat...the only reason there are jobs "Americans won't do" is because they get more by leeching the system...fix the system so that they can barely survive at OUR expense and they might actually have a work ethic forced on them...or die from starvation without it...a little toughlove is what we need, too much liberal compassion while stealing my taxes to pay for the worthless, the useless, and the shiftless...
Medical is very complicated. Education is also out of control. Pricing will remain remain inflated as long as the funds are readily available whether it's from loans, grants, or scholarships. The universities seem to be competing on which school has the nicest dorm or rec hall instead of tuition prices.
I live near the university of Illinois. they've built new luxury dorms and there is a waiting list to get in. Crazy.
If I was born at third base, I'd also have a different outlook.
Pensions are already a done deal...just offer everyone a 401K and let them put their own money away...match some if you want, but young people today need to realize that their elder years are THEIR responsibility and no one else's...not the govt, not their kids, it is their responsibility to start planning financially in their 20s, and putting aside part of their pay in a 401K (and delete social security) will give them 40-plus years to accumulate, thru stock market ups and downs...
Once labor is cost is firmly under control under the benevolent dictatorship of the employer (like that phrase?) then eliminate worthless regulations, keep those regulations that really protect people and the environment...kill racial quotas and kill the Davis Bacon Act...once there is a profit to be made in America, then products might be made in America...
Being an aging boomer I agree that the problems we face now are much worse than in the past. I pin the blame on the advent of the computer, with its subsequent
increase in productivity and the lessening of the need for labor that means. Years ago in my business our problem was underproduction. (Sign business). We could not manufacture enough to fill demand. Everyone worked hard, worked overtime, and got paid a decent wage.
Now our problem is overproduction. We can easily produce 5X more product than we sell, with half the number of people as can every shop like ours. The market is saturated in almost every field. 30% of the calls we receive are from companies trying to sell to us... or looking for donations for some sham charity. Look at the overproduction in the auto industry. Good relatively inexpensive vehicles are available from ten or more companies from all over the world. My 2006 Chevy truck cost less new than my old 1992 Ford F150 with less options, but GM lost money on that truck. When sales tanked in 2008 production had to fall in line with demand and a lot of people lost their jobs. Only people employed by government entitities have for the most part been insulated from these strains...for now.
The final nail in the coffin was/is the internet. It's like Capitalism on steroids, and businesses have to worry about global competition in addtion to local. A HD cable that costs $50 in Radio Shack can be had on E-bay for $12. Yet that local store has to charge the $50 because of their sky high rent, electricity, property tax,
workman's compensation for emplyees etc...
I say build a time machine, go back and sabatoge all the research that led to the computer age. Take care of that and we would be at full employment. Unfortunately that's impossible so I see protectionism and/or hyperinflation coming. I'd take that over Deflation.
I always knew something was wrong with the economic system when a number of years ago I bought a bicycle, made in China with 20 some speeds, shock absorbers etc, for $80. An unbelievable bargain. That same week I picked up a new pair of glasses which at the time was over $300. How is it that I can buy 4 bicycles with seats, tires,gears, chains, brakes, etc. for the same price as the 3 ounce spectacles sitting on my nose?
The one monkey wrench is the union problem. And I don't think we're going to solve that here. But the higher cost due to the union workers that the companies are stuck with is going to be the driving factor for some production being in other North American countries.
The imports have lost some of their lustre and poorly held reputation with the Honda transmision and VCM problems and with the Toyota electronic control problems. The GM company has a great start with a large profit in the recent quarter. They will pay back the money when they run IPOs and the US taxpayer will likely make a profit. Ford is doing well.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, I can assemble a bicycle. Don't think I'll be making your lenses any time soon.
Ironically they are computer cut.
I get it - you're special!
Doesn't every generation make this claim?
Let's get together in 20 years - if I'm around then - & see if you're right. I'll pay for the beer.
This is fiction. I'm a longtime Honda owner (since 1974) as are many of my friends & colleagues, & I don't know anyone who's had these problems.
They will pay back the money when they run IPOs and the US taxpayer will likely make a profit.
The U.S. taxpayer should never have been asked to take this risk in the 1st place. If you're a hard-core capitalist, you'll agree that companies that screw up, as GM did, should be allowed to fail - the sooner, the better.
You can spin it any way you want to, but when government steps in to prop up a loser, you're taking the 1st step on the road to socialism.
Does that bike still work? :shades:
For the past 60 or so years the government has been all about helping bottomless money pits.
Jim, you clearly don't know anybody who has an Odyssey then. Check out the 1,592 posts on the subject in Edmunds--involving all model years, even very-late model:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0fa11e
I know two people who have Hondas now. One had a trans failure at 70K and Honda's goodwill gesture was to make him "only" pay $1,800. My Chevy van needed a pressure control solenoid in the trans (harsh shifting when warm) and GM did it for nothing a few months ago--at 79K miles--and I don't have an extended warranty.
Heck, a young guy was telling me he wanted to get a government job because private industry works him to death and pays him nothing. The average kid entering the workforce today will probably have to live with Mom and Dad until he is 30. How the heck is he going to afford a house or even pay rent unless he wants to live in the 'hood where he'll be shot at or victimized? Add in the fact that he's already paying-off a crushing student loan debt equal to a mortgage for a worthless degree in a profession where all the jobs were shipped to Bangladore. Wow, those IT skills really came in handy working at The Gap. Maybe he can debug the cash register? He'll be starting a family later in life, that is if he is reckless and self-destructive enough to marry and have children.
Now that's an exaggeration. Public housing has been around since the 30's and their have never been enough manufacturing jobs to employ everyone that needs a job. US manufacturing employment peaked at roughly 21 million jobs in 1979. While that is probably about double what we have now, it certainly isn't enough to keep people out of public housing. Baldwin stopped building locomotives in the 50's. I don't think that was fault of trade policies or off shoring. Some companies just happen to be in the way of progress.
I grew up around the the steel mills in NW Indiana. Midwest Steel, US Steel, Bethlehem etc. Most of the mills are still there. Some are under different ownership. But I have several friends that graduated from HS between 88-94 that have good jobs at the mill as iron workers and crane operators etc. It's not like they haven't hired anybody in 40 years.
When they're offering 0% for 60 mos, why pay cash. I've not seen any 84 month terms offered around here. But anything over 60 is really nuts. To many good used cars to be had to suffer through an 84 month note on a new car. I'd think the dealers hate it to. That buyer is essentially out of the market for 5-7 years minimum. It's hard to finance someone when they're thousands upside down.