Rail car building is a now lost art in the city that once built them as well as locomotives.
You can blame that on the 1956 Federal-Aid Highway Act, which gave birth to the Interstate Highway system & killed off rail travel in this country. Before that, our rail system was the best in the world. You could travel comfortably from just about any town in the U.S. to any other town by train.
But by the late 60s, our rail system was in the weeds. People were using their cars for short & mid-range trips. For longer trips, they flew. That's still the pattern today.
When my parents traveled from their home in Philly to a family reunion in Wisconsin in the early 50s, they took a train. But when they made the same trip in the early 60s (this time from NJ), they flew. Almost no one who owned a car or who could afford to fly traveled by train after 1960.
Not surprisingly, the D3 lobbied in favor of the 1956 bill. So you could say that American car manufacturers had a hand in the death of the American rail industry.
"Yet, people refuse to give these cities and towns a second chance by building new plants there. At least too, when buggy whip manufacturers went away, there were still other manufacturing jobs for them to get into. Now, virtually nothing is manufactured here anymore--it's mostly foreign-built."
That's bleeding heart liberalism, pure and simple...why should anyone give anything a second chance???...just because it WAS THERE BEFORE...does not mean it is a good place to rebuild...once a company has dealt with a union, I could see them doing everything in their power to shift production (think Boeing) to a lower cost area, and and soon as anyone breathes the phrase "lower cost" you can instantly assume they mean unions...
You seem to believe that because an industry was located in "Place X" that anything that competes or may repalce that industry should locate in X to give those previous workers a "chance"...you live by emotion, but business tries to seek out the lowest costs (assuming other factors are equal), and if a plant was located in the unionized north, the newer company will probably leave...
Lemko has mentioned numerous companies in the Philly area that are bankrupt or left the area...between high union costs and a slumlike area, why would anyone stay???
That may be our main difference...you wonder why they would leave and I wonder why they stayed that long to start with...
The answer for success is the death of the unionized labor movement, the sooner the better...
Incidentally, I prefer the north overall, Matter-of-fact, I'd move back to my hometown in PA--beautiful countryside, historic buildings downtown and such, nice people, but I'm afraid once the currently-comfortable group of retirees pass away, it may become not-so-pleasant. I am able to work at home the majority of the time, but there's really no other place to work than the hospital. I mean, none. My wife and daughters would decry the lack of large, chain retail (yawn!).
Lemko mentioned rail building. That was the largest industry in our town 'til the mid'90's--when they moved after 80 years of production in town, to Mexico. I remember the first few orders from Mexico were rejected by the customers, which virtually never happened from the PA plant.
Where that plant was--right in the center of town, alongside the Chicago-to-NYC Erie railroad mainline--is now a huge open area which has had some EPA issues. That is plainly the ugliest part of town. Thankfully, downtown and the outskirts are still attractive to me--Mayberry qualities I think.
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Incidentally, I prefer the north overall, Matter-of-fact, I'd move back to my hometown in PA--beautiful countryside, historic buildings downtown and such, nice people, but I'm afraid once the currently-comfortable group of retirees pass away, it may become not-so-pleasant. I am able to work at home the majority of the time, but there's really no other place to work than the hospital. I mean, none. My wife and daughters would decry the lack of large, chain retail (yawn!).
The 20th Century saw the migration from the farm to the city. I wonder how the 21st Century will be viewed 100 years from now. Your description fits small (and some not so small) towns and cities in just about all of the lower 48 states.
Lemko mentioned rail building. That was the largest industry in our town 'til the mid'90's--when they moved after 80 years of production in town, to Mexico. I remember the first few orders from Mexico were rejected by the customers, which virtually never happened from the PA plant.
Ah, yes... The falacy of relying solely on a single business for sustaining the local economy. Many, MANY communities have made that same mistake.
IMO, it was nothing less of being short-sighted when the US abandoned national passenger rail transportation. If nothing else positive came out of 9/11, it was the dependence on air travel as the only method of mass transportation was flawed. But, one needs to remember that, at the time, the railroad industry really wasn't interested too much in passenger traffic. Freight paid well, and didn't complain about poor service. Look for that very same opinion to grab hold in the passenger airline industry in the future.
Where that plant was--right in the center of town, alongside the Chicago-to-NYC Erie railroad mainline--is now a huge open area which has had some EPA issues. That is plainly the ugliest part of town. Thankfully, downtown and the outskirts are still attractive to me--Mayberry qualities I think.
All throughout SC, you can find the same thing, where the 150 year old textile plant closed. Many burned after being abandoned, but a few remain. Almost all of them have EPA cleanup issues.
Lastly, remember....Mayberry was in North Carolina, not far from Raleigh. Your point is well taken, however... There are some really pretty areas in every state (yes, even in NJ....LOL!).
Not surprisingly, the D3 lobbied in favor of the 1956 bill. So you could say that American car manufacturers had a hand in the death of the American rail industry.
Well I guess what comes around goes around as the rail industry did all they could to hurt the steam boats in the 1800's.
My grandmother had a friend (I say "had" because I'm sure she's long since passed on by now) who lived in a small town in Indiana called Monon. Real small-town, "Mama's Family" sort of charm to it. I think the one major industry that town had was the Monon Trailer Company, which built truck trailers. I wonder if they're still in business? I imagine that if that trailer company went under or pulled up roots, it would kill the town.
I remember going out to see her, twice. First time was in 1978. It was one of our stops on a 2 week vacation where we ended up in Yellowstone. Second time was 1986, when we went out specifically to see her. She lived on a 160 acre farm that had had a small airport on it, with a grass runway. I've tried looking it up online, and it looks like the old farm is still there, although I know she sold it years ago and moved into a trailer park.
I know exactly where Monon, In is and I'm familiar with Monon Trailer. Last I knew, they were on the brink of bankruptcy in the 90's. I believe the plant is still there and is operated under a different company called Vanguard.
They were in a world of hurt when Wabash National in near by Lafayette, IN was created in the mid 80's. I think Wabash was created by a several execs from different trailer manufactures. I had a professor at Purdue University that was heavily involved in consulting for Walbash National.
Last time I was around Monon Trailer I remember noticing that most of their employees were from "south of the border".
I lived in the south several times. I liked it, but it isn't the same any more to me. All of this build up is good for house prices, but otherwise mark my word the south will end up down the road with all of the problems that plague the industrial north, including eventually much higher taxes. Go to Atlanta today and there is little vestige of the south, its mostly transplanted Yankees. The Coca Cola museum is now just an overpriced tourist trap, although still much cheaper than a Boeing tour. I was in Charleston, SC several years ago on business. Its still a pretty town, but a lot of the old charm is starting to fade being replaced by tourist oriented restaurants and bars, not the neat old places that used to be by the slave market, and almost as many eastern accents as southern ones. America is becoming a land of homogenization. Kind of sad really, we're losing a lot of our different uniqueness in various areas.
America is becoming a land of homogenization. Kind of sad really, we're losing a lot of our different uniqueness in various areas.
When we lived in Wichita, KS all of our neighbors on our street and cul de sac were from different states and even a few different countries and all of us located there for different industries. No one was actually from Kansas. It was kind of strange yet kind of neat.
Then we all moved out of Kansas within a few months of each other. I still talk to our old neighbor that's still there and he's the only one left.
No one seems to be from where they live anymore. I'm not from here - I just live here (a great song by James McMurtry by the way).
At least I stayed in the same state though in my mid-20s I almost went teh Florida route. To be fair I was chasing a fifth generation Floridian....
No matter where you go you;ve got Wal Mart, Kohl's a Home Deopt within half a mile of Lowes, A McDonald's for every 10,000 people with a Burger King next door and a Wendy's up the street, various Applebees, Fridays, Outback, whatever... You have to get pretty far off the map to avoid it.
My latest spot where these weren't was our trip to the Outer Banks. The middle had the usual but once you went north of Kitty Hawk or south or Oregon Inlet that all disappeared.
The other side of the coin is that things get pricier that far out.
Some day I have to go back to the Florida panhandle (I lived in Tallahassee for a year) and see how that's held up. The city itself would have all the box stuff. I'm wondering about all those little towns. Deep south.
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I lived in the south several times. I liked it, but it isn't the same any more to me. All of this build up is good for house prices, but otherwise mark my word the south will end up down the road with all of the problems that plague the industrial north, including eventually much higher taxes. Go to Atlanta today and there is little vestige of the south, its mostly transplanted Yankees.
No doubt about it, you hit Atlanta perfectly.
I'm originally from GA, and the friends I have still living there all say that "Well, there's GA, and then there's Atlanta". The sad part is that the entire state has its policies dictated by what those in Atlanta decide they want done (or not done).
You're probably correct about the future as well. We live in a dynamic world, and very little remains the same for very long.
Whenever I've experienced rapid development and expansion the outcome is handsome profits for the realtors, but gridlock, higher prices and growing taxes for the residents. Never fails regardless of geographic location.
Born in NY, moved to Atlanta in 1971...Detroit, 1980-1990, Atlanta, 1990-present...my 10 year experience in Detroit taught me much about the UAW, their overall mentality, and their complete lack of skill...
You will notice that in the last 20 posts or so, many folks have noted places of change and the failure to adapt...rail took the place of steamboats, but nobody "protected" the steamboat industry...airplanes then replaced railroads for passenger and nobody protected the railroads (except Amtrak, another gov't boondoggle, paying billions to keep it running while few passengers only bring in million in revenue...kinda like MARTA in Atlanta...always runs a deficit because it does not carry enough people to be profitable, yet they keep it going when they ought to close it down)...the interstate ran right past many little towns that used to see tourist traffic, and now the little towns are even smaller...should we shut down the interstate so that we can only cross country at 55 instead of 70 mph???...why should they force me into little two lane towns when I have 500 miles to drive???
To h*ll with the little towns...we NEED major interstates so we can drive places faster...if you want to see the town, take that exit and see the town, but don't force me to deal with hundreds of cops in little towns who all want to ticket you for 2 mph over the speed limit...
It was mentioned that many of the industries that left did manage to leave behind environmental waste dumps...should you be glad that no MORE toxic waste is being produced, but, there's the rub...THE JOBS ARE GONE...do we want the toxic waste as long as we have the underskilled overpaid union jobs???
So, the toxic waste source has left, the jobs have left, the Mom & Pop stores closed and WalMart moved in...that is the change you must adapt to, and the problem with EVERY poster here that laments the job loss is that they live in an area that depended on ONE industry, had union people paid too much for their unskilled labor, and whn the chance came to lower thier costs, the company left for cheaper labor, or they were forced out of business because Society adapted and they didn't...
Did you try and save the steamboat industry when railroads were the better way to transport goods???...some things simply have to die because they are no longer feasible, and the folks who work in that industry must change their lives, simply because they have to do it...did we have a surplus of steamboat captains at one time, as railroads became the better method???...how many caboose men are no longer needed because technology has removed the need for the caboose entirely...yet the union fought the removal of the caboose because two men were needed that cost over $100K per year in salaries...the railroad saved millions (billions?) when they eliminated the caboose...are you fighting to keep the caboose simply because the train "looks nicer" with a caboose at the end???
Why do you, and all the other like you, fight change like you do???...we must adapt to changes, whether we like them or not...one of those major changes is simply that unskilled labor may no longer command the outrageous pay scale that they have in the past...all the industries in lemko's Philly, all those in Detroit, steelworkers, all those jobs were moved to avoid high labor costs that simply were not worth what they were paid...
To answer your question...sometimes, people matter, too.
I lived in suburban Atlanta from '83-85 as a young guy. I loved it then, but would probably put a gun to my head living there now.
You certainly can't expect a town of under 10K, where I grew up, to have the diversity of industry that even a town of 50K had and could afford.
I always say, a square mile is a square mile, no matter where you live, but if you have to share it with fewer people, you'll probably enjoy yourself more and be kinder to others in the process. As I get older, I long more and more for the small-town life. I live in suburbia now. But then, I like the simple things and drive two Studebakers, so what do I know.
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Lemko, be prepared for folks to say how bad it was in the '60's, although that ignores that the high poverty at that point was pre-all the social programs that were implemented after that. Also, that was pre-affirmative action which probably was needed back then. Right now is as bad as I've seen it in my thirty years of post-college employment, and everyone of a certain age I know agrees.
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Everything goes in cycles. Next thing you know Nissan will move their NA headquarters to Philly. :shades:
I'm vacationing an hour out of Detroit and I can see what y'all mean by the neat old houses, small towns (great ones along the lakes and rivers here), and generally pleasant atmosphere. Plenty of empty storefronts but plenty of people out and about buying and spending too. I could see living around these parts. I haven't ventured south of 8 Mile yet though.
One thing that surprises me is the article about the poverty rate hitting a 15 year high. So, that puts us as bad-off as 1995? Honestly, I don't remember 1995 being all that bad, although I was in a bad marriage, and had I stayed in it much longer, I would have been one of those poverty statistics! :surprise:
I do remember the federal gov't going on furlough at the end of 1995. Us contractors still had to report to work, basically sit around and twiddle our thumbs. And we didn't have the internet back then to keep us occupied!
Actually, looking back, in 1995 I did get a crap raise. 3%. And in 1996 I got no raise at all. Instead, they just gave me a bonus check. That check was about 5% of my pay that year, but it still kept me behind overall, as when 1997's raise came around, it was based on my 1995 salary, rather than 1995 salary + a raise.
I bought my condo in late 1994, and lucked out that it was a market bottom. Checking comps for the area over time, I'd say it had fallen about 15% since 1990.
So, in retrospect, maybe that 1995 era wasn't so hot, after all. Thanks to the federal gov't, the DC area is somewhat insulated from the "real" world.
Also, that was pre-affirmative action which probably was needed back then. Right now is as bad as I've seen it in my thirty years of post-college employment, and everyone of a certain age I know agrees.
I thought in the 50's and 60's a manufacturing job existed for anyone that wanted one? So even w/o affirmative action, how could 15%+ of the population be in poverty with the supposed excess availability of factory employment?
I don't believe for a minute that our issues are because people chose to buy foreign cars. It's much more complicated than that.
On a positive note, my friend that owns a machine shop here in central Illinois told me two weeks ago that his orders are the highest they've been in 10 years, so somebody is still building something.
I guess I must live in a bubble, as among all of my family (which are mainly non college educated blue collar), only my cousin who's an iron worker has been laid off for any amount of time. The few that have lost factory jobs have actually been able to find another factory job paying the same or more.
Among my college associates, pretty much the same. The few that have lost jobs have found new work paying similar or even more money.
If you don't have some type of skill that is in demand, your struggling. I still see the occasional article mentioning a shortage of skilled trades. Maybe something needs to be done to expand the access to vocational schools. Or maybe more HS should incorporate a trade path.
Over the summer at the lake where we spend most weekends. Everyone was talking about how bad things were. I looked around and I surrounded by $50k trucks, $50k RV's and $50k boats while we were grilling steaks and drinking premium beer. Oh the irony.
I don't have the answers and unfortunately it seems no one does. But I know the answer is not implementing protectionist policies. The current status of manufacturing pretty much insures most of the jobs that have been lost won't come back. Manufacturers continue to spend money on capital improvements that reduce the need for labor.
First off, not everybody then (and especially now) lives by a factory; secondly, I think it would not be accurate to deny that racism in hiring existed more then than now, adding to poverty then.
I think the point is, with all these decades of social programs to assist the poor, and less outright racism in hiring today, things now are so very poor.
I'm employed, but I know more than one college-educated person my age who is looking for work and has been for awhile, sadly.
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First off, not everybody then (and especially now) lives by a factory; secondly, I think it would not be accurate to deny that racism in hiring existed more then than now, adding to poverty then.
I certainly don't want to dispute racism. My grandmother was part of a huge class action lawsuit in the 60's IIRC against Sears for passing over women into roles in management. My grandfather was severely injured in WWII and he always had trouble finding sustainable work. That does even touch what happened with minorities.
But in a way that still goes on. I know in the steel mills, if your not related to someone, your odds of getting hired are about nill. I know 10-15 people that have hired on as labor at the steel mills in NW Indiana over the past 5 years and every one got in due to a family worker being in the union. That is a union policy I believe. Same with the Iron Workers union. If your not related, your probably not going to get hired.
I think the point is, with all these decades of social programs to assist the poor, and less outright racism in hiring today, things now are so very poor.
Since we started the War on Poverty in 1965, the federal government alone has spent more than $13 trillion fighting poverty. Including state and local government brings total anti-poverty spending over $15 trillion. Clearly we have received very little bang for the buck. Throwing money at the problem has neither reduced poverty nor made the poor self-sufficient.
Those are stunning numbers and clearly we haven't improved things. Wonder how much was wasted to corruption and waste.
Your point of sexism is an excellent one that I left out of my argument. My Dad was one of those guys that had to be dragged into hiring women thirty-plus years ago. There's far less of that type of thinking today than in the '60's...and things are still this bad now. Of course it's a bunch of things, but not the least of which is the loss of our huge manufacturing base.
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Over the summer at the lake where we spend most weekends. Everyone was talking about how bad things were. I looked around and I surrounded by $50k trucks, $50k RV's and $50k boats while we were grilling steaks and drinking premium beer.
Well, it IS all relative, isn't it?
When I was a child, living in South GA, it was rare for anyone to have central A/C in their house, much less their car... IF they even had a car.
Yet, no one I know ever felt "disadvantaged".
So, what is "disadvantaged" nowadays?
Having a cellphone with limited text messages?
Not having the latest video game console?
Only have a 50" widescreen TV when a 60" is available at Best Buy?
Getting onto the Interstate recently, I saw a man holding the "Will work for food" sign...and also talking on a cellphone.
"To answer your question...sometimes, people matter, too."...
In the abstract, I agree with you...but that is warm and fuzzy thinking simply does not fly in the real world (or, that dog won't hunt)...is it warm and fuzzy to think that Mom & Pop (M&P), charging $7 for an oil filter that I can buy the same item and part number at wal-mart for $3, should survive???...do YOU think you have the right to mandate the continued existence of M&P and force me to pay $7 for an item I can get, thanks to better marketing and greater buying power, for only $3???
Tell me why M&P should survive...they served a purpose, until someone came along and did it better and cheaper...it is NOSTALGIC to think of the Old General Store and Grandma taking care of you???...yes...but I want to keep the extra $4 in my pocket so I can now get a "free" meal at Burger King, which I would NOT have been able to do if your wish of keeping M&P alive came true...
Your desire to live in the past is admirable, simply unrealistic...or, move to a part of the country where it still exists, mostly rural areas...
Do people matter???...why don't you ask those people to be willing to adapt to change instead of letting them whine that they want the world to stop.
See, it is ALL a matter of attitude...when they left the farms to go work in the factories for more money, they were all gung ho..."pack up the babies and grab the old ladies and everyone goes" because they WANTED to change their lives for more money...now, it is STILL a matter of a life change, but since we are spoiled with the complacency of what we had, suddenly it is too stressful to change...
Nothing has changed except the attitude of the people...when THEY want to change to changing Societal conditions, we're all for it...now it is change against their will, so it can't be done...
The only thing constant in life is change...adapt or die...not because I say so, but because that is what it is...and the longer folks like YOU delay the inevitable adaptation, the more painful that change will be...
Darwin was right...people matter only if they adapt to survive...
"To answer your question...sometimes, people matter, too."...
Using that logic, shouldn't anybody driving more than an Aveo be ashamed at their opulence? I mean, they could have bought the Aveo instead of the Regal or Escalade and given the remaining money to somebody who needs it! In fact, isn't driving selfish if there are mass transit options? And television - they could borrow a library book rather than buying such luxuries! Give the rest away to the UAW unemployed people who matter!
Or is people mattering only relevant when compared to those in their own neighborhood, not the ones in the slums or even in third world countries?
uplander: I adored Greenfield Village, but I do not understand your point...
tlong: sorry to sound like a broken record, but I REALLY have no idea what you mean by your post...why is driving selfish???...why do I have to buy an Aveo???...and why can't I buy a television???...what business is that of anybody's and why do you care???...I will NOT sell my car and send the money to Bangladesh to feed them, if that's what you mean...
while I want no harm to any person, I have to take care of me and my family, NOT the person in the slums, NOT the person in the panhandle, and NOT the person in a 3rd world country...why should I be concerned about people 100 miles south of Atlanta???...again, I mean them no harm, but why do you think I am RESPONSIBLE for anybody but me and my family???...are YOU responsible for my family???...selfish means to take care of self, and too many folks forget that...Society does not take care of me, at least not individually, China doesn't either, and neither should the govt, so who's left???...ME, I take care of self and family...
tlong: sorry to sound like a broken record, but I REALLY have no idea what you mean by your post
I think his point was that, if people matter, which "people" is it that matters? One's neighbors, fellow countrymen, all of mankind?
In other words, if we take that idea to its logical conclusion, then we should live a meager existence as possible, and help others with any surplus (money, food, housing, etc.) that we may have.... Socialism to the extreme. Shun all luxury items.
So, under that theory, we should be ashamed if we use any more resources than necessary to exist.
It was a rhetorical statement....He wasn't advocating that lifestyle. At least, that's how I took it.
Hey circlew, what's your take on the issues with the new Sonata owners are experiencing...mostly with steering? One guy on the forum unloaded his already. Now, I try very hard to not say 'never' or 'always', but I'm pretty sure you never heard me say GM or domestic products are perfect... but I don't recall hearing any reaction of yours to the Sonata...only the Equinox.
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tlong: sorry to sound like a broken record, but I REALLY have no idea what you mean by your post...why is driving selfish???...why do I have to buy an Aveo???...and why can't I buy a television???...what business is that of anybody's and why do you care???...I will NOT sell my car and send the money to Bangladesh to feed them, if that's what you mean...
Bob, I was quoting from your post a comment made by (I think) uplanderguy. He was implying that although small one-company towns can be decimated, "people matter too", as if we should have charity in our hearts (at least how I read it). So my post was responding to having charity in our hearts. Why drive a big car? If people matter, we should all drive a small car and give away the money saved to those people who matter. My point is that if "people matter too", then we are all not showing enough compassion. Live very frugally and shovel the difference to those people who matter! As if that is the right way to do it....
Well, looks like they are having some teething pains. We'll see what the scope is soon.
You make junk, it will haunt you. You fix it and it doesn't come up again, you're good.
Let's look at the launch of the 2010 Camaro from the NEW GM: (July 2009)
In January, GM delayed Camaro production for one month, pushing back the start of production at its Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, assembly site from February 16 to March 16 as engineers grappled with quality-control and supplier issues.
From there, the Camaro has endured a litany of confirmed and anecdotal quality problems perhaps most entertainingly characterized by an unintentionally humorous list posted at Camaro5.com to help potential new owners scour their Camaro for quality issues reported by other buyers.
The lengthy — and sometimes hilarious — checklist includes such worrying entries as loose oil-pan bolts and oil-cooler leaks; "mismatched paint on parts of the vehicle;" hoods that won't unlatch, intermittent air-conditioning operation; loose emblems and interior trim pieces and misaligned and poorly fitting body panels.
Inside Line says: The entire checklist of 65 items the forum suggests new owners inspect before taking Camaro delivery can be found on the Web site's forum. — Bill Visnic, Senior Editor, Edmunds' AutoObersver.com
The Camaro is still the best-selling car in that segment--still outselling Mustang--a full year after the date of what you named its "failed launch". From GM...who'da thunk it?
Somehow I doubt there'd be an enthusiast's website like "Camaro5" for the Sonata
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"Why drive a big car? If people matter, we should all drive a small car and give away the money saved to those people who matter. My point is that if "people matter too", then we are all not showing enough compassion. Live very frugally and shovel the difference to those people who matter! As if that is the right way to do it.... "
Well there ya go!
AND
Our beloved President is doing everything he can to make that happen. Take from those that have worked hard and give to those that have not worked hard, or at all. Socialism! :mad:
The new 'Stang is a better car than the Camaro IMHO.
Somehow, GM always continues to lag in quality regardless of the 2009 failure and despite shedding the huge debt. Guess what's left is a dumbed down version of what was after the melt down.
Looks like the Sonata just surpassed the Malibu in sales by 18% in August. No affect yet of the teething pains.
Obviously; it is better to take the money away from people who are no longer working at all (seniors and people on welfare or unemployment) and give it back to the people who already have enough money. People who have lived their lives by the rules and expect to be treated fairly in their old age are fools. The way to succeed in America is to play to WIN: Trample on anyone who gets in the way, only follow speed laws when a cop is looking; cheat on your taxes, cheat on your spouse, cheat on exams, cheat in athletic competition, and hide the spoils in an offshore bank account. And take alcohol, antidepressants, painkillers, Viagara and sleep aids to cheat on the damage this lifestyle does to your body and conscience. And carry lots of health insurance for the time when the abuse you have done to your body and to society finally catches up.
"The way to succeed in America is to play to WIN"...yes, play to win, but you don't have to do all those things you listed...why not just live right and do things properly???...you don't have to trample people who get in your way, but nothing wrong with healthy competition...
Well, it's clear to me after owning all 3 that when it comes to expenses to keep it running, it's Japan #1, German #2, and USA #3.
#1 meaning the cheapest to keep it running.
I'm nearing 70K in my 2006 Audi A3, and I've had to do 2 repairs that cost me money now. First was the recirculation valve (pricey at 3 hours labor! OUCH!, but $100 part).
Second one was recently got the common Check Engine Light code for a very (all too common and popular) defect with the throttle intake runner module motor. Apparently it's so common that there's a revised improved more robust replacement part called Part version II. The next thing to go wrong will probably be the diverter valve for the turbo (same common failure as the others in A3's), but luckily, thats $100 and only 1/2 hour labor to fix, but mine hasn't failed yet.
All in all I'm happy with this reliability.
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Comments
You can blame that on the 1956 Federal-Aid Highway Act, which gave birth to the Interstate Highway system & killed off rail travel in this country. Before that, our rail system was the best in the world. You could travel comfortably from just about any town in the U.S. to any other town by train.
But by the late 60s, our rail system was in the weeds. People were using their cars for short & mid-range trips. For longer trips, they flew. That's still the pattern today.
When my parents traveled from their home in Philly to a family reunion in Wisconsin in the early 50s, they took a train. But when they made the same trip in the early 60s (this time from NJ), they flew. Almost no one who owned a car or who could afford to fly traveled by train after 1960.
Not surprisingly, the D3 lobbied in favor of the 1956 bill. So you could say that American car manufacturers had a hand in the death of the American rail industry.
That's bleeding heart liberalism, pure and simple...why should anyone give anything a second chance???...just because it WAS THERE BEFORE...does not mean it is a good place to rebuild...once a company has dealt with a union, I could see them doing everything in their power to shift production (think Boeing) to a lower cost area, and and soon as anyone breathes the phrase "lower cost" you can instantly assume they mean unions...
You seem to believe that because an industry was located in "Place X" that anything that competes or may repalce that industry should locate in X to give those previous workers a "chance"...you live by emotion, but business tries to seek out the lowest costs (assuming other factors are equal), and if a plant was located in the unionized north, the newer company will probably leave...
Lemko has mentioned numerous companies in the Philly area that are bankrupt or left the area...between high union costs and a slumlike area, why would anyone stay???
That may be our main difference...you wonder why they would leave and I wonder why they stayed that long to start with...
The answer for success is the death of the unionized labor movement, the sooner the better...
Incidentally, I prefer the north overall, Matter-of-fact, I'd move back to my hometown in PA--beautiful countryside, historic buildings downtown and such, nice people, but I'm afraid once the currently-comfortable group of retirees pass away, it may become not-so-pleasant. I am able to work at home the majority of the time, but there's really no other place to work than the hospital. I mean, none. My wife and daughters would decry the lack of large, chain retail (yawn!).
Lemko mentioned rail building. That was the largest industry in our town 'til the mid'90's--when they moved after 80 years of production in town, to Mexico. I remember the first few orders from Mexico were rejected by the customers, which virtually never happened from the PA plant.
Where that plant was--right in the center of town, alongside the Chicago-to-NYC Erie railroad mainline--is now a huge open area which has had some EPA issues. That is plainly the ugliest part of town. Thankfully, downtown and the outskirts are still attractive to me--Mayberry qualities I think.
The 20th Century saw the migration from the farm to the city. I wonder how the 21st Century will be viewed 100 years from now. Your description fits small (and some not so small) towns and cities in just about all of the lower 48 states.
Lemko mentioned rail building. That was the largest industry in our town 'til the mid'90's--when they moved after 80 years of production in town, to Mexico. I remember the first few orders from Mexico were rejected by the customers, which virtually never happened from the PA plant.
Ah, yes... The falacy of relying solely on a single business for sustaining the local economy. Many, MANY communities have made that same mistake.
IMO, it was nothing less of being short-sighted when the US abandoned national passenger rail transportation. If nothing else positive came out of 9/11, it was the dependence on air travel as the only method of mass transportation was flawed. But, one needs to remember that, at the time, the railroad industry really wasn't interested too much in passenger traffic. Freight paid well, and didn't complain about poor service. Look for that very same opinion to grab hold in the passenger airline industry in the future.
Where that plant was--right in the center of town, alongside the Chicago-to-NYC Erie railroad mainline--is now a huge open area which has had some EPA issues. That is plainly the ugliest part of town. Thankfully, downtown and the outskirts are still attractive to me--Mayberry qualities I think.
All throughout SC, you can find the same thing, where the 150 year old textile plant closed. Many burned after being abandoned, but a few remain. Almost all of them have EPA cleanup issues.
Lastly, remember....Mayberry was in North Carolina, not far from Raleigh. Your point is well taken, however... There are some really pretty areas in every state (yes, even in NJ....LOL!).
Well I guess what comes around goes around as the rail industry did all they could to hurt the steam boats in the 1800's.
I remember going out to see her, twice. First time was in 1978. It was one of our stops on a 2 week vacation where we ended up in Yellowstone. Second time was 1986, when we went out specifically to see her. She lived on a 160 acre farm that had had a small airport on it, with a grass runway. I've tried looking it up online, and it looks like the old farm is still there, although I know she sold it years ago and moved into a trailer park.
They were in a world of hurt when Wabash National in near by Lafayette, IN was created in the mid 80's. I think Wabash was created by a several execs from different trailer manufactures. I had a professor at Purdue University that was heavily involved in consulting for Walbash National.
Last time I was around Monon Trailer I remember noticing that most of their employees were from "south of the border".
I lived in the south several times. I liked it, but it isn't the same any more to me. All of this build up is good for house prices, but otherwise mark my word the south will end up down the road with all of the problems that plague the industrial north, including eventually much higher taxes. Go to Atlanta today and there is little vestige of the south, its mostly transplanted Yankees. The Coca Cola museum is now just an overpriced tourist trap, although still much cheaper than a Boeing tour. I was in Charleston, SC several years ago on business. Its still a pretty town, but a lot of the old charm is starting to fade being replaced by tourist oriented restaurants and bars, not the neat old places that used to be by the slave market, and almost as many eastern accents as southern ones. America is becoming a land of homogenization. Kind of sad really, we're losing a lot of our different uniqueness in various areas.
When we lived in Wichita, KS all of our neighbors on our street and cul de sac were from different states and even a few different countries and all of us located there for different industries. No one was actually from Kansas. It was kind of strange yet kind of neat.
Then we all moved out of Kansas within a few months of each other. I still talk to our old neighbor that's still there and he's the only one left.
At least I stayed in the same state though in my mid-20s I almost went teh Florida route. To be fair I was chasing a fifth generation Floridian....
No matter where you go you;ve got Wal Mart, Kohl's a Home Deopt within half a mile of Lowes, A McDonald's for every 10,000 people with a Burger King next door and a Wendy's up the street, various Applebees, Fridays, Outback, whatever... You have to get pretty far off the map to avoid it.
My latest spot where these weren't was our trip to the Outer Banks. The middle had the usual but once you went north of Kitty Hawk or south or Oregon Inlet that all disappeared.
The other side of the coin is that things get pricier that far out.
Some day I have to go back to the Florida panhandle (I lived in Tallahassee for a year) and see how that's held up. The city itself would have all the box stuff. I'm wondering about all those little towns. Deep south.
No doubt about it, you hit Atlanta perfectly.
I'm originally from GA, and the friends I have still living there all say that "Well, there's GA, and then there's Atlanta". The sad part is that the entire state has its policies dictated by what those in Atlanta decide they want done (or not done).
You're probably correct about the future as well. We live in a dynamic world, and very little remains the same for very long.
Born in NY, moved to Atlanta in 1971...Detroit, 1980-1990, Atlanta, 1990-present...my 10 year experience in Detroit taught me much about the UAW, their overall mentality, and their complete lack of skill...
You will notice that in the last 20 posts or so, many folks have noted places of change and the failure to adapt...rail took the place of steamboats, but nobody "protected" the steamboat industry...airplanes then replaced railroads for passenger and nobody protected the railroads (except Amtrak, another gov't boondoggle, paying billions to keep it running while few passengers only bring in million in revenue...kinda like MARTA in Atlanta...always runs a deficit because it does not carry enough people to be profitable, yet they keep it going when they ought to close it down)...the interstate ran right past many little towns that used to see tourist traffic, and now the little towns are even smaller...should we shut down the interstate so that we can only cross country at 55 instead of 70 mph???...why should they force me into little two lane towns when I have 500 miles to drive???
To h*ll with the little towns...we NEED major interstates so we can drive places faster...if you want to see the town, take that exit and see the town, but don't force me to deal with hundreds of cops in little towns who all want to ticket you for 2 mph over the speed limit...
It was mentioned that many of the industries that left did manage to leave behind environmental waste dumps...should you be glad that no MORE toxic waste is being produced, but, there's the rub...THE JOBS ARE GONE...do we want the toxic waste as long as we have the underskilled overpaid union jobs???
So, the toxic waste source has left, the jobs have left, the Mom & Pop stores closed and WalMart moved in...that is the change you must adapt to, and the problem with EVERY poster here that laments the job loss is that they live in an area that depended on ONE industry, had union people paid too much for their unskilled labor, and whn the chance came to lower thier costs, the company left for cheaper labor, or they were forced out of business because Society adapted and they didn't...
Did you try and save the steamboat industry when railroads were the better way to transport goods???...some things simply have to die because they are no longer feasible, and the folks who work in that industry must change their lives, simply because they have to do it...did we have a surplus of steamboat captains at one time, as railroads became the better method???...how many caboose men are no longer needed because technology has removed the need for the caboose entirely...yet the union fought the removal of the caboose because two men were needed that cost over $100K per year in salaries...the railroad saved millions (billions?) when they eliminated the caboose...are you fighting to keep the caboose simply because the train "looks nicer" with a caboose at the end???
Why do you, and all the other like you, fight change like you do???...we must adapt to changes, whether we like them or not...one of those major changes is simply that unskilled labor may no longer command the outrageous pay scale that they have in the past...all the industries in lemko's Philly, all those in Detroit, steelworkers, all those jobs were moved to avoid high labor costs that simply were not worth what they were paid...
I lived in suburban Atlanta from '83-85 as a young guy. I loved it then, but would probably put a gun to my head living there now.
You certainly can't expect a town of under 10K, where I grew up, to have the diversity of industry that even a town of 50K had and could afford.
I always say, a square mile is a square mile, no matter where you live, but if you have to share it with fewer people, you'll probably enjoy yourself more and be kinder to others in the process. As I get older, I long more and more for the small-town life. I live in suburbia now. But then, I like the simple things and drive two Studebakers, so what do I know.
Poverty Rate Hits 15 Year High
1 in 7 Americans Live in Poverty
I'm vacationing an hour out of Detroit and I can see what y'all mean by the neat old houses, small towns (great ones along the lakes and rivers here), and generally pleasant atmosphere. Plenty of empty storefronts but plenty of people out and about buying and spending too. I could see living around these parts. I haven't ventured south of 8 Mile yet though.
I do remember the federal gov't going on furlough at the end of 1995. Us contractors still had to report to work, basically sit around and twiddle our thumbs. And we didn't have the internet back then to keep us occupied!
Actually, looking back, in 1995 I did get a crap raise. 3%. And in 1996 I got no raise at all. Instead, they just gave me a bonus check. That check was about 5% of my pay that year, but it still kept me behind overall, as when 1997's raise came around, it was based on my 1995 salary, rather than 1995 salary + a raise.
I bought my condo in late 1994, and lucked out that it was a market bottom. Checking comps for the area over time, I'd say it had fallen about 15% since 1990.
So, in retrospect, maybe that 1995 era wasn't so hot, after all. Thanks to the federal gov't, the DC area is somewhat insulated from the "real" world.
I thought in the 50's and 60's a manufacturing job existed for anyone that wanted one? So even w/o affirmative action, how could 15%+ of the population be in poverty with the supposed excess availability of factory employment?
I don't believe for a minute that our issues are because people chose to buy foreign cars. It's much more complicated than that.
On a positive note, my friend that owns a machine shop here in central Illinois told me two weeks ago that his orders are the highest they've been in 10 years, so somebody is still building something.
I guess I must live in a bubble, as among all of my family (which are mainly non college educated blue collar), only my cousin who's an iron worker has been laid off for any amount of time. The few that have lost factory jobs have actually been able to find another factory job paying the same or more.
Among my college associates, pretty much the same. The few that have lost jobs have found new work paying similar or even more money.
If you don't have some type of skill that is in demand, your struggling. I still see the occasional article mentioning a shortage of skilled trades. Maybe something needs to be done to expand the access to vocational schools. Or maybe more HS should incorporate a trade path.
Over the summer at the lake where we spend most weekends. Everyone was talking about how bad things were. I looked around and I surrounded by $50k trucks, $50k RV's and $50k boats while we were grilling steaks and drinking premium beer. Oh the irony.
I don't have the answers and unfortunately it seems no one does. But I know the answer is not implementing protectionist policies. The current status of manufacturing pretty much insures most of the jobs that have been lost won't come back. Manufacturers continue to spend money on capital improvements that reduce the need for labor.
I think the point is, with all these decades of social programs to assist the poor, and less outright racism in hiring today, things now are so very poor.
I'm employed, but I know more than one college-educated person my age who is looking for work and has been for awhile, sadly.
I certainly don't want to dispute racism. My grandmother was part of a huge class action lawsuit in the 60's IIRC against Sears for passing over women into roles in management. My grandfather was severely injured in WWII and he always had trouble finding sustainable work. That does even touch what happened with minorities.
But in a way that still goes on. I know in the steel mills, if your not related to someone, your odds of getting hired are about nill. I know 10-15 people that have hired on as labor at the steel mills in NW Indiana over the past 5 years and every one got in due to a family worker being in the union. That is a union policy I believe. Same with the Iron Workers union. If your not related, your probably not going to get hired.
This is eye opening.
nytimes
Since we started the War on Poverty in 1965, the federal government alone has spent more than $13 trillion fighting poverty. Including state and local government brings total anti-poverty spending over $15 trillion. Clearly we have received very little bang for the buck. Throwing money at the problem has neither reduced poverty nor made the poor self-sufficient.
Those are stunning numbers and clearly we haven't improved things. Wonder how much was wasted to corruption and waste.
Well, it IS all relative, isn't it?
When I was a child, living in South GA, it was rare for anyone to have central A/C in their house, much less their car... IF they even had a car.
Yet, no one I know ever felt "disadvantaged".
So, what is "disadvantaged" nowadays?
Having a cellphone with limited text messages?
Not having the latest video game console?
Only have a 50" widescreen TV when a 60" is available at Best Buy?
Getting onto the Interstate recently, I saw a man holding the "Will work for food" sign...and also talking on a cellphone.
Now, that's IRONY!
I believe their is a program that provides free cell phones for those who qualify.
Providing Cellphones for the Poor
In the abstract, I agree with you...but that is warm and fuzzy thinking simply does not fly in the real world (or, that dog won't hunt)...is it warm and fuzzy to think that Mom & Pop (M&P), charging $7 for an oil filter that I can buy the same item and part number at wal-mart for $3, should survive???...do YOU think you have the right to mandate the continued existence of M&P and force me to pay $7 for an item I can get, thanks to better marketing and greater buying power, for only $3???
Tell me why M&P should survive...they served a purpose, until someone came along and did it better and cheaper...it is NOSTALGIC to think of the Old General Store and Grandma taking care of you???...yes...but I want to keep the extra $4 in my pocket so I can now get a "free" meal at Burger King, which I would NOT have been able to do if your wish of keeping M&P alive came true...
Your desire to live in the past is admirable, simply unrealistic...or, move to a part of the country where it still exists, mostly rural areas...
Do people matter???...why don't you ask those people to be willing to adapt to change instead of letting them whine that they want the world to stop.
See, it is ALL a matter of attitude...when they left the farms to go work in the factories for more money, they were all gung ho..."pack up the babies and grab the old ladies and everyone goes" because they WANTED to change their lives for more money...now, it is STILL a matter of a life change, but since we are spoiled with the complacency of what we had, suddenly it is too stressful to change...
Nothing has changed except the attitude of the people...when THEY want to change to changing Societal conditions, we're all for it...now it is change against their will, so it can't be done...
The only thing constant in life is change...adapt or die...not because I say so, but because that is what it is...and the longer folks like YOU delay the inevitable adaptation, the more painful that change will be...
Darwin was right...people matter only if they adapt to survive...
But, it sure seems like life was more satisfying and less complicated before this 'world economy', that has so many people wanting to 'work for food'.
If I moved to a more rural area, my family would be the whiners ("What? No Target here?!") and I'm not willing to deal with that!
Using that logic, shouldn't anybody driving more than an Aveo be ashamed at their opulence? I mean, they could have bought the Aveo instead of the Regal or Escalade and given the remaining money to somebody who needs it! In fact, isn't driving selfish if there are mass transit options? And television - they could borrow a library book rather than buying such luxuries! Give the rest away to the UAW unemployed people who matter!
Or is people mattering only relevant when compared to those in their own neighborhood, not the ones in the slums or even in third world countries?
tlong: sorry to sound like a broken record, but I REALLY have no idea what you mean by your post...why is driving selfish???...why do I have to buy an Aveo???...and why can't I buy a television???...what business is that of anybody's and why do you care???...I will NOT sell my car and send the money to Bangladesh to feed them, if that's what you mean...
while I want no harm to any person, I have to take care of me and my family, NOT the person in the slums, NOT the person in the panhandle, and NOT the person in a 3rd world country...why should I be concerned about people 100 miles south of Atlanta???...again, I mean them no harm, but why do you think I am RESPONSIBLE for anybody but me and my family???...are YOU responsible for my family???...selfish means to take care of self, and too many folks forget that...Society does not take care of me, at least not individually, China doesn't either, and neither should the govt, so who's left???...ME, I take care of self and family...
I think his point was that, if people matter, which "people" is it that matters? One's neighbors, fellow countrymen, all of mankind?
In other words, if we take that idea to its logical conclusion, then we should live a meager existence as possible, and help others with any surplus (money, food, housing, etc.) that we may have.... Socialism to the extreme. Shun all luxury items.
So, under that theory, we should be ashamed if we use any more resources than necessary to exist.
It was a rhetorical statement....He wasn't advocating that lifestyle. At least, that's how I took it.
Regards,
OW
Bob, I was quoting from your post a comment made by (I think) uplanderguy. He was implying that although small one-company towns can be decimated, "people matter too", as if we should have charity in our hearts (at least how I read it). So my post was responding to having charity in our hearts. Why drive a big car? If people matter, we should all drive a small car and give away the money saved to those people who matter. My point is that if "people matter too", then we are all not showing enough compassion. Live very frugally and shovel the difference to those people who matter! As if that is the right way to do it....
You make junk, it will haunt you. You fix it and it doesn't come up again, you're good.
Let's look at the launch of the 2010 Camaro from the NEW GM: (July 2009)
In January, GM delayed Camaro production for one month, pushing back the start of production at its Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, assembly site from February 16 to March 16 as engineers grappled with quality-control and supplier issues.
From there, the Camaro has endured a litany of confirmed and anecdotal quality problems perhaps most entertainingly characterized by an unintentionally humorous list posted at Camaro5.com to help potential new owners scour their Camaro for quality issues reported by other buyers.
The lengthy — and sometimes hilarious — checklist includes such worrying entries as loose oil-pan bolts and oil-cooler leaks; "mismatched paint on parts of the vehicle;" hoods that won't unlatch, intermittent air-conditioning operation; loose emblems and interior trim pieces and misaligned and poorly fitting body panels.
Inside Line says: The entire checklist of 65 items the forum suggests new owners inspect before taking Camaro delivery can be found on the Web site's forum. — Bill Visnic, Senior Editor, Edmunds' AutoObersver.com
Failed Launch
If the Sonata gets this bad, I'll post it as well but for now let's call a spade a spade:
GM hasn't changed much. Can't make cars that well.
Regards,
OW
Somehow I doubt there'd be an enthusiast's website like "Camaro5" for the Sonata
http://www.insideline.com/ford/mustang/mustang-vs-camaro-race-for-sales-continue- s.html
http://www.autonews.com/article/20100604/BLOG06/100609918/-1
Nice angle though, hides a lot of the heavy-handedness
http://www.speedlux.com/camaro-squashed-mustang-august-2010-sales/
And that's with just one bodystyle versus two for the Mustang.
I'm not saying I love the Camaro, but let's give props where they belong...even if it's (gasp) GM.
I actually like the look of the new Camaro, as it reminds me of one a good friend of mine had in 1967. I always liked that body design better.
Well there ya go!
AND
Our beloved President is doing everything he can to make that happen.
Take from those that have worked hard and give to those that have not worked hard, or at all. Socialism! :mad:
Kip
Somehow, GM always continues to lag in quality regardless of the 2009 failure and despite shedding the huge debt. Guess what's left is a dumbed down version of what was after the melt down.
Looks like the Sonata just surpassed the Malibu in sales by 18% in August. No affect yet of the teething pains.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
#1 meaning the cheapest to keep it running.
I'm nearing 70K in my 2006 Audi A3, and I've had to do 2 repairs that cost me money now. First was the recirculation valve (pricey at 3 hours labor! OUCH!, but $100 part).
Second one was recently got the common Check Engine Light code for a very (all too common and popular) defect with the throttle intake runner module motor. Apparently it's so common that there's a revised improved more robust replacement part called Part version II. The next thing to go wrong will probably be the diverter valve for the turbo (same common failure as the others in A3's), but luckily, thats $100 and only 1/2 hour labor to fix, but mine hasn't failed yet.
All in all I'm happy with this reliability.