Bob, I posted an article awhile back here that shows that people are paying attention to where cars are built, and are now just as willing to buy American built cars (yes, that includes the transplants as well) as they are to "look for the best deal". So, no matter what company you work for, there is good news for the American auto assembly workers.
I believe the article said something like 11% were looking at Foreign built only.
Funny, I'm 45 and I grew up with the perception that Japanese cars were anything but the best. The were bizarre imports with strange and otherworldly styling that couldn't keep up with traffic, were fatal in an accident, collapsed into a pile of iron oxide dust after two winters, and had interiors that split apart after two seasons of summer sun.
That's what I said on these forums a long time ago. American auto makers have to go back to making great AMERICAN cars instead of poor imitations of imports!
I most definitely agree that GM's downsized 1977-era full-sized B and C body cars were excellent. I've owned several examples.
The were bizarre imports with strange and otherworldly styling that couldn't keep up with traffic, were fatal in an accident, collapsed into a pile of iron oxide dust after two winters, and had interiors that split apart after two seasons of summer sun.
Ironically, the tables turned. You know the rest of the story.
Some learn and some remain arrogant and go bankrupt, correct?
Funny, I'm 45 and I grew up with the perception that Japanese cars were anything but the best. The were bizarre imports with strange and otherworldly styling that couldn't keep up with traffic, were fatal in an accident, collapsed into a pile of iron oxide dust after two winters, and had interiors that split apart after two seasons of summer sun.
Perhaps Philly is an odd town?
You also like the large cruisers. In your demographic I don't believe that is very common.
"......we still all really want the U.S. to do well and be a leader in the world. I think we just disagree on what it takes to get there."
Sometimes, I wonder about that. I mean, we probably agree that there is no better country in the world, but when it comes to products, I'm not so sure. Somebody posted here awhile back that we Americans have an inferiority complex when it comes to products. What DO we think we do best?? Beer? Everybody would say Heineken, Amstel, Guinness, Corona. Anybody ever mention Sam Adams?? Electronics?? Sony!!! Samsung!! What about Apple or IBM though??Cars?? BMW, Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Bently, Lexus. But what about Cadillac?? Does anybody here think that in 1955, that a 1955 Sedan Deville, while a beautiful car, was a "Better Value" than a '55 Mercedes or Rolls (I know I and lemko do)?? I believe that you mentioned the V8-6-4 engine. Yes, it was a failure at the time (thanks to slow computers), but the idea behind it was futuristic. Just what we should expect from the premier American nameplate (look at all the companies using the technology today). GM lost it's way for the most part with it's top gun for the better part of 30 years(1975-2005), buy they ARE working at making it the "Cadillac of the......" auto industry again. And for that they should be applauded.
".....Maybe the Philly drinking water is to blame. If he lived around here, he'd be driving a 5-series Bimmer"
See?? THAT'S what I'm talking about. First of all, the 5 Series is TOO SMALL for lemko. So that means a 7 series, which is TOO EXPENSIVE for what you get.
If he wanted a 5 Series sized car, he could do just fine with a brand new CTS, and save some money.
"......we still all really want the U.S. to do well and be a leader in the world. I think we just disagree on what it takes to get there."
Sometimes, I wonder about that. I mean, we probably agree that there is no better country in the world, but when it comes to products, I'm not so sure. Somebody posted here awhile back that we Americans have an inferiority complex when it comes to products. What DO we think we do best?? Beer? Everybody would say Heineken, Amstel, Guinness, Corona. Anybody ever mention Sam Adams?? Electronics?? Sony!!! Samsung!! What about Apple or IBM though??Cars?? BMW, Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Bently, Lexus. But what about Cadillac?? Does anybody here think that in 1955, that a 1955 Sedan Deville, while a beautiful car, was a "Better Value" than a '55 Mercedes or Rolls (I know I and lemko do)?? I believe that you mentioned the V8-6-4 engine. Yes, it was a failure at the time (thanks to slow computers), but the idea behind it was futuristic. Just what we should expect from the premier American nameplate (look at all the companies using the technology today). GM lost it's way for the most part with it's top gun for the better part of 30 years(1975-2005), buy they ARE working at making it the "Cadillac of the......" auto industry again. And for that they should be applauded.
Good comments. Well we've made great aircraft over the years. I'd say that in the '50's our cars were either the best, or at least were the best from a styling perspective - even into the '60's.
Apple designs here but manufactures in China. They used to make Macs in Fremont, CA. I'd say that the blame is not theirs; perhaps the US Government should change some policies to encourage manufacturing in the U.S.
Re: the V8-6-4 - innovation is a great idea, but it needs to be executed successfully. GM has been poor at execution.
The Volt is highly innovative. But the GM diesels were crap, the V8-6-4 was crap, the Fiero (initially) was crap, and the Vega was crap. You can't keep introducing new products that are crap from the start. Let's say that the Volt will end up being an excellent vehicle. I wouldn't dare take a chance on buying one (even assuming a positive financial case) because of the GM track record with new products. Let some other poor devils buy the Volts and let's wait a few years and see how it really does.
A poor company reputation is a really bad place to be, and GM management is to be blamed for the poor products they introduced over the years that were not ready for prime time.
Ignoring that I don't think GM should have been bailed out, the best they can do is focus relentlessly on quality, make what the market wants, and get that money paid back as soon as possible. It appears that they are doing well, but I am suspicious of residual old-school management, as well as the UAW.
Now you are making sense. They are trying. Just be open to little tell-tale signs that the road they once traveled is a razor-hair away from reenactment as some of the decisions that are currently being made trigger reminders of the past GM.
I agree things are better and far more good than bad are happening. Keeping GM at a higher level of expectation by loving everything they do will not keep their focus, afaic.
What could the US "change" to lure domestic owned (at least until the weird joint ventures take ownership of the intellectual capital, or it is simply stolen) manufacturing from China? No nation that values any notion of progress or justice in any way should emulate China. China isn't the way forward.
If he wanted a 5 Series sized car, he could do just fine with a brand new CTS, and save some money.
Well, he had a chance to buy the CTS - a car that I happen to like, BTW - but he decided to buy the older, stodgier & much less appealing DTS instead.
I've always thought that the words "front-wheel drive" & "luxury sedan" don't belong in the same sentence, so the DTS would be just about the last car I'd consider.
OK, here goes.....Welcome to the annual Customer Auto Review of GM. We welcome all of the GM global management to hear the Voice of the Customer.
I am the voice of the customer for GM. BoD, stay seated and keep your mouth shut while I am speaking, please.
Let's get right down to brass tacks: (Remember that one?)
Regal should be 35MPG, Turbo, 300HP/300lb.-ft., 3,000 lbs I-4 at the current price. No Excuses, so get it out in April 2011.
Caddy should already have made the better 335I/328I. You have 6 months or you're all fired. The CTS is nice. reduce the price by 15% and keep your mouth shut.
Chevy should beat pricing for every foreign manufacturer's product and bury the CAFE rating (make it look comical). At the highest quality ratings. No excuses. (The Cruze should beat everything in the world at every statistical metric for it's category...for a cheaper price than anything imported or made in the USA by foreign-based competition.) Make the changes by end of Q2 2011. Next time, under advertise and over deliver, get it??? No more next time. Last chance. Elantra will remind you. Nothing is impossible unless you are still greedy. Are you?
GMC? Make trucks that are the envy of the world, not of the other divisions. All trucks come out of GMC or you're fired again! No need for clones anymore. Leave that to the Chinese, please. Chevy stops making trucks now. Period. Hard to swallow but this is a new beginning. You can make as many variations as the market wants but it needs to say GMC on them. If not, GMC is toast. You decide. Chevy Trucks, you say? GMC, turn out the lights.
This must happen or it's curtains once again. Make your plans and execute. Remember to keep your mouth shut and only focus on delivering product. The product will rule your future, not the phony ad campaigns.
Period. Any questions?
End of Meeting. You are excused to do the work everyone in the USA expects of you. Please go quietly and make it happen.
See you next year if you are still working here. :shades:
"......Well, he had a chance to buy the CTS - a car that I happen to like, BTW - but he decided to buy the older, stodgier & much less appealing DTS instead."
I believe that is because he wanted the larger, less sportier DTS, which brings me to your second point about FWD. In this day and age, I think that RWD is mostly associated with sport first.
What could the US "change" to lure domestic owned (at least until the weird joint ventures take ownership of the intellectual capital, or it is simply stolen) manufacturing from China? No nation that values any notion of progress or justice in any way should emulate China. China isn't the way forward.
Well, I'm no expert. Perhaps we should tax a portion of the savings that a company gets by manufacturing overseas as "imputed income". Perhaps we add a cost to cover the environmental damage done if the company makes products where controls are weaker. I don't tend to like just plain old tarrifs, but I could see using some sort of fee to compensate (some of) the effects on the economy.
But that wouldn't be "business friendly" or "manufacturing friendly" or any of the other hollow euphemisms (lies) that the free marketeer casino capitalists like to use in their quest to dumb down what was the first world. Good luck getting it through.
Although of course, I don't disagree with such ideas.
What GM needs is simple. To come from behind, you have to be better, for less. That addresses the key complaints - quality and value. Hitting one or the other won't do it when you've been stagnating for so long.
But I fear GM has too many legacy execs to see it - the Volt resembling the Lumina styling-wise tells me there's still old blood everywhere. Bad old blood.
If I had more dollars than sense, I'd be likely to be driving a 750i if I were financially reckless and self-destuctive enough to purchase a BMW. You're far more likely to see me in a Mercedes-Benz S-Class than a Bimmer. M-Bs are much prettier. In lieu of a DTS, I'd have purchased a Lincoln Town Car, but Ford foolishly dropped it along with the Grand Marquis and Crown Vic. Lincoln has nothing to offer me these days but a bunch of stupid cross-overs, SUVs, and weak V-6 pseudo-luxury cars that have more in common with a Mercury than the Lincoln of yore.
I get all I need and want in the Cadillac DTS. I know the DTS draws barbs from critics for being FWD, but tell me how well RWD would be in the recent snowstorm that hit the Northeast? My wife's FWD LaCrosse drove through this snowy mess effortlkessly while my RWD Grand Marquis left me slip sliding away. I would appreciate an AWD DTS or XTS in the future and Cadillac is on it. How come Acura doesn't draw criticism for FWD? Not only are they FWD but they've got no V-8!
Nothing wrong with a little Schuylkill Punch or a Delaware Daquiri either, (Philly drinking water)! :P
I don't believe a current Maybach or Rolls-Royce Phantom is as awesome a car as ANY 1950s-1960s Cadillac!
The V-8-6-4 was a great idea, the technology just wasn't there to support it. I beleive displacement on demand has once again been tried in trucks and SUVs, but I haven't heard anything good or bad about it recently.
Shoot, the 5-Series is too lilliputian for my tastes. Somehow, the mid-grade Mercedes E-Class pulls it off better. Personally, I would love it if Cadillac made something as big and glorious as my 1989 Brougham these days. It makes my DTS look puny.
Despite its FWD configuration, the DTS is Number One on my car-shopping A-list until Cadillac or Buick comes up with something its size or bigger and more powerful and awesome. As for as I'm concerned, the Cadillac DTS is the most beautiful car on the market.
Ignoring that I don't think GM should have been bailed out, the best they can do is focus relentlessly on quality, make what the market wants, and get that money paid back as soon as possible. It appears that they are doing well, but I am suspicious of residual old-school management, as well as the UAW.
Same thing with Congress...not enough change...
( I tried to bold a line of tlongs, but all it did was enclose this box in lines and squares and post nothing as above)
Yeah, I'm going to be thundering around a European Formula One course in the near future. I'm more likely to be travelling down the die-straight PA Turnpike or stuck in a traffic jam on I-95 or the Schuylkill Expressway! The DTS gives me a smooth comfortable ride in both adverse and ideal conditions with a rush of power instantly on demand.
The Chevy dealers aren't going to be too happy with you if truck buyers have to go across town to the GMC dealer.
The absurdity of it all is that GM pioneered this multi-brand strategy, then lost sight of why that had it in the first place. While we might agree on the idiocy of 8-10 brands vs. 2-3, the basic concept is not so bad. But then when each brand dealer wants a "full line" they were all messed up.
Chevy is the entry division, but has the hottest sports car (Corvette). Pontiac was the sporty division, but had no Corvette, and DID have rebadged entry-level Chevys. GMC is the "professional" division, but has the same rebadged mommymobile Acadia as the Chevy Traverse. Chevy has the same trucks as the GMC division. We won't even talk about Saturn, Hummer, and Saab (rebadged from jets!).
How stupid is all that? It's all those idiotic divisions that cost GM money and helped them lose sight of what they were trying to do in the first place - make really good products.
Seems to be a real balancing act. Consider Toyota/Scion; Mercedes/Smart; Chrysler/Plymouth; Ford/Mercury. There must be some more examples out there too. :P
Seems to be a real balancing act. Consider Toyota/Scion; Mercedes/Smart; Chrysler/Plymouth; Ford/Mercury. There must be some more examples out there too.
The difference is that the other manufacturers (even Ford) didn't go to the absurd number of divisions as GM. Take Toyota with Scion-Toyota-Lexus - there is a reasonable differentiation between them. Acura-Honda, similarly. BMW-Mini, again. Those all make sense. GM lost sight of the differentiations that each division stood for. So you ended up with 8 divisions, 8 sets of dealers, 8 brands to advertise, designs and molds for rebadged taillights, grills, etc., and the need for umpteen plants for manufacturing in all of those divisions. Talk about overhead!
It's really part and parcel of GM's history too though. Looking at the Wikipedia blurb:
"The company was first founded on September 16, 1908, in Flint, Michigan, as a holding company for Buick, .... It acquired Oldsmobile later that year. In 1909, Durant brought in Cadillac, Elmore, Oakland and several others. Also in 1909, GM acquired the Reliance Motor Truck Company of Owosso, Michigan, and the Rapid Motor Vehicle Company of Pontiac, Michigan, the predecessors of GMC Truck."
GM is down to 7 divisions now - Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden.
GM is down to 7 divisions now - Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden.
I was counting only US-sold divisions. You can add Saab, Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn so the previous total was 11. And the Chinese Buick is almost like yet another one. Yikes!
American my dodge and toyota.my ford was made in mexico,and chevy was made in canada.my buddy has a body shop,and one of his magazines 15 years ago said in 25 years 80% of cars will come out of asia.It look like the magazine may have some meriit.
Up until the late 1980s, the Alfred Sloan model for GM actually did make sense...when $500-1000 was a lot of money, it really was a major "status step" up to go from a Chevy to a Pontiac, or an Olds to a Caddy..so when an Olds cost $7,000 and a Caddy was $8,000, it all made sense, as folks strived to move up the GM ladder...around the late 80s, you could buy a decked out Caprice for, say, $18,000, but a discounted Olds 98 wasn't much more, maybe even less with a "packaged option discount"...add to that as car loans became 48/60 months, you really could get a longer loan with lower payments on an Olds 98 or Buick Park Avenue, so now the questions became, $400/month for 4 years for a Chevy, or $400/month for 5 years for a much more luxurious Olds or Buick, maybe even the Caddy...
When I saw that, way back when, I believed that GM was in trouble, simply because the price/status differentialtion that made GM the giant it was, was no longer the glue that kept the divisions with separate identities...
Add to that the years that a Caddy looked like a Chevy (remember the commerical where the dressed up couple takes their Lincoln from the valet while the other couples argued over who had the Caddy/Buick/Chevy because they all looked alike?) and you could see Sloan rolling over in his grave...
I agree about the DTS--I like it. Whenever I see one, I think "what a good looking car", despite its several years on the market, and fact is, nobody else really makes anything like it.
Remember when RWD was considered an anachronism?
We rented a DTS a couple years ago. It bowled us over...vault-like quiet, roomy, lots of power, great V8 sound (well, that bowled me over!), great ride...even my ten-year old daughter said at the time, "Dad, I'd give up the DVD player in the van for a car like this"!
As you know, most folks are very aware of perception of themselves. It's uncool to like a car like a DTS. I'd very much enjoy owning one--if there was still a Caddy dealer near me.
I liken the "perception" thing to my not liking to watch sports, and admitting to liking certain female singers and actors, not just he-man rockers and actors. People think you'll get your "guy card" taken away for saying those things. Same with liking an American car like the DTS these days.
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I get all I need and want in the Cadillac DTS. I know the DTS draws barbs from critics for being FWD, but tell me how well RWD would be in the recent snowstorm that hit the Northeast? My wife's FWD LaCrosse drove through this snowy mess effortlkessly while my RWD Grand Marquis left me slip sliding away.
How much snow did you guys end up getting, Lemko? We dodged this last bullet, only getting about an inch. Last year though, we got two snowstorms that dropped about 20+ inches apiece on us, and then a third that probably dropped another 12 or so, but it was hard to measure because the wind kept blowing it all around!
The only time I had any real problems with my '85 Silverado in those storms was if I got to a point with a hill that was too steep, and I couldn't get enough speed to get up it. Stopping was never a problem with that truck, but sometimes getting moving was. Heck, I swear that truck stopped better in the snow and ice than my FWD, ABS, 4wheel-disc Park Ave!
Oh, you'd get a kick out of this, Lemko... on Christmas Day, I got to see one of my old neighbors, the wife of the guy who helped me repaint my two Darts, used to put 350's in Chevy Vegas back in the day, and is probably a big reason why I love old cars so much. Well, they had moved from my neighborhood about 10 years ago, and I hadn't seen them since 2005. They live in southern MD, near my Mom. Well, she had said that all she thought she needed to feel rich was a paved driveway and a red Cadillac. She got her paved driveway when she moved to southern MD. The old house up here has about 500 feet of gravel.
And in 2005, she finally got her red Cadillac, a new DeVille. Or, were they calling it DTS by that time? When I was a little kid, she had a blue '69 or '70 Sedan DeVille. I remember riding in it a few times, and being mesmerized by the power windows. Yeah, we're simple people. Paved driveways, power windows...doesn't take much to keep us amused. :shades:
Well, BMW's are NOT luxury sedans. They are Sport/Luxury sedans. When I say this I mean that they emphasize the sport aspect over luxury. Mercedes' do have a sport version of the same luxury sedans. The Lexus ES as well as Acuras are FWD.
If you look at the commercials that the carmakers put out, BMW, Mercedes, and Infiniti all emphasize their sportiness. Caddy does this as well with the CTS and STS.
".....Up until the late 1980s, the Alfred Sloan model for GM actually did make sense...when $500-1000 was a lot of money, it really was a major "status step" up to go from a Chevy to a Pontiac, or an Olds to a Caddy.."
Don't forget the options list either. 45 yrs ago you could order a Nova with a "manual" (re: NO preset pushbuttons) AM radio. The pushbuttons were an option. Pushbuttons were standard on my Wildcat. There was probably no option for a power antenna on the Nova either (something the Wildcat has). A/C was available, but Buicks also had "climate control". Climate "control" in a CHevy was the fan speed and temp lever.
Also, 6 cyl engines were standard throughout the Chevy lineup (save the Vette). Buick had a 6 in the Special/Skylark only. V8's were standard everywhere else. Caddy's first 6 was the Cimmarron.
Nowadays, "options" that were considered "luxury" (pw, pdl, auto, A/C power seats, stereos) are standard pretty much in any size and "class" of car sold. THAT may have rendered the GM model obsolete more than anything else.
So, the commercials are your point of reference? That's fine and I agree the emphasis but just take a test-sit in the rear seat of a 750il.
No sport, just oozing luxury.
You see, what I learned after my 2006 BMW experience is how far behind GM, Ford and C are when it comes to auto performance, luxury and precision in engineering. The fact that I did not believe until the drive. No USA built car is engineered better. Luxury included. Sure, living room cruising is best in a Caddy and Lincoln, no argument. The CTS has now just touched upon this with the V series vs. the M but all around, Caddy sits a few rows back in the opera house when it comes to a cohesive product in terms of luxury and precision.
No knock against your opinion but I know better. BMW 528i? Just don't opt for the sport suspension. 328i, same.
They might handle well but luxury is not out the window at any perspective.
Just IMHO, of course. Don't get me started regarding the 7 Alpina, please.
Sure, many can't afford it but off base referencing that BMW is not about luxury unless you only reference commercials, of course.
Well, BMW's are NOT luxury sedans. They are Sport/Luxury sedans.
It depends on how they're equipped. My 3-series BMW, equipped with the optional sport package (firmer suspension, high-performance summer rubber, etc.) & a stick shift is certainly more sporty than lux. But a 5- or 7-series without the sporty pieces & with a slushbox are luxury cars.
If you drive the different variants, you'll see exactly what I mean.
The E-class Benz, which is the only MB that I've driven extensively, is a terrific car - it might just be the car that I'd pick if I had to spend 12 hours per day behind the wheel - but it's nothing that I'd call sporty. Chances are that you wouldn't, either, unless your frame of reference is something like a Ford Explorer. In that case, almost anything else would seem sporty.
The Lexus ES as well as Acuras are FWD.
And that's why many luxury car buyers won't even look at them. At best, they're entry-level luxury, with just one foot in the door. Almost no one (Lemko excepted) would seriously consider any FWD car to be an authentic luxury contender.
I've heard rumors that the next generation ES might be RWD/AWD.
If you look at the commercials that the carmakers put out, BMW, Mercedes, and Infiniti all emphasize their sportiness. Caddy does this as well with the CTS and STS.
I watch little TV, so I'll have to take your word for this. In any case, I wouldn't attach much importance to this. Of course, ads will emphasize whatever quality the ad makers think will sell cars. It might be sportiness one day & prestige or safety the next. Whatever works.
In any case, Caddy desperately has to win over would-be Euro buyers, since the premium Euro brands are now the most sought-after luxury models. So if the Euros are pushing sportiness, Cadillac has no choice but to follow suit.
We got about 8-10" in Philly. My parents who live about 100 miles further north and to the west got off easy with about an inch. NYC got nailed with 20".
I think they went to calling it just a DTS in 2006 with the redesign. You neighbor's car would be the 2000-2005 design. I wonder if her car is that beautiful Crimson Pearl finish? I had a 1994 DeVille finished in a gorgeous red called Carmine Red.
Heck, I got a kick out of power windows as a kid and got scolded a lot for playing with them if I was riding in a more affluent relative's car at the time. Heck, when I got my first car with power windows - a 1979 Buick Park Avenue, I thought back to the times I got my hand slapped as a kid and remarked, "Now I can play with the power windows all I want!"
Heck, I've always prided myself on being something of a contrarian. I never followed trends when I was a kid and still refuse to follow them. If everybody is driving a BMW M5 or an AMG Mercedes, I will appear on the streets in a massive Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham.
That 2000 - 2005 redesign was the last DeVille that dad had. It was the first of his DeVilles that I really liked driving. Maybe it was trying to awaken my inner lemko.
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You neighbor's car would be the 2000-2005 design. I wonder if her car is that beautiful Crimson Pearl finish?
I just looked up the 2005 Caddy colors, and "Crimson Pearl" was the only reddish color shown, so that must be it. It was a nice color, a deep, metallic red.
lemko: I have read in some posts that the DTS engine has vibration problems at high speed ((55 mph-plus), and that Caddy says it is "normal"...do you have any problem with vibration???
Lemko gets Caddy's that were made by hand by former Swiss watchmakers who wanted to make something with more precision and luxury that what they'd been doing. His cars have fewer issues than the Presidential limo.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Comments
I believe the article said something like 11% were looking at Foreign built only.
I most definitely agree that GM's downsized 1977-era full-sized B and C body cars were excellent. I've owned several examples.
Ironically, the tables turned. You know the rest of the story.
Some learn and some remain arrogant and go bankrupt, correct?
Regards,
OW
Perhaps Philly is an odd town?
You also like the large cruisers. In your demographic I don't believe that is very common.
Yeah, Lemko is the oldest 45-year-old I've ever encountered.
Maybe the Philly drinking water is to blame. If he lived around here, he'd be driving a 5-series Bimmer.
Sometimes, I wonder about that. I mean, we probably agree that there is no better country in the world, but when it comes to products, I'm not so sure. Somebody posted here awhile back that we Americans have an inferiority complex when it comes to products. What DO we think we do best?? Beer? Everybody would say Heineken, Amstel, Guinness, Corona. Anybody ever mention Sam Adams?? Electronics?? Sony!!! Samsung!! What about Apple or IBM though??Cars?? BMW, Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Bently, Lexus. But what about Cadillac?? Does anybody here think that in 1955, that a 1955 Sedan Deville, while a beautiful car, was a "Better Value" than a '55 Mercedes or Rolls (I know I and lemko do)?? I believe that you mentioned the V8-6-4 engine. Yes, it was a failure at the time (thanks to slow computers), but the idea behind it was futuristic. Just what we should expect from the premier American nameplate (look at all the companies using the technology today). GM lost it's way for the most part with it's top gun for the better part of 30 years(1975-2005), buy they ARE working at making it the "Cadillac of the......" auto industry again. And for that they should be applauded.
See?? THAT'S what I'm talking about. First of all, the 5 Series is TOO SMALL for lemko. So that means a 7 series, which is TOO EXPENSIVE for what you get.
If he wanted a 5 Series sized car, he could do just fine with a brand new CTS, and save some money.
Sometimes, I wonder about that. I mean, we probably agree that there is no better country in the world, but when it comes to products, I'm not so sure. Somebody posted here awhile back that we Americans have an inferiority complex when it comes to products. What DO we think we do best?? Beer? Everybody would say Heineken, Amstel, Guinness, Corona. Anybody ever mention Sam Adams?? Electronics?? Sony!!! Samsung!! What about Apple or IBM though??Cars?? BMW, Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Bently, Lexus. But what about Cadillac?? Does anybody here think that in 1955, that a 1955 Sedan Deville, while a beautiful car, was a "Better Value" than a '55 Mercedes or Rolls (I know I and lemko do)?? I believe that you mentioned the V8-6-4 engine. Yes, it was a failure at the time (thanks to slow computers), but the idea behind it was futuristic. Just what we should expect from the premier American nameplate (look at all the companies using the technology today). GM lost it's way for the most part with it's top gun for the better part of 30 years(1975-2005), buy they ARE working at making it the "Cadillac of the......" auto industry again. And for that they should be applauded.
Good comments. Well we've made great aircraft over the years. I'd say that in the '50's our cars were either the best, or at least were the best from a styling perspective - even into the '60's.
Apple designs here but manufactures in China. They used to make Macs in Fremont, CA. I'd say that the blame is not theirs; perhaps the US Government should change some policies to encourage manufacturing in the U.S.
Re: the V8-6-4 - innovation is a great idea, but it needs to be executed successfully. GM has been poor at execution.
The Volt is highly innovative. But the GM diesels were crap, the V8-6-4 was crap, the Fiero (initially) was crap, and the Vega was crap. You can't keep introducing new products that are crap from the start. Let's say that the Volt will end up being an excellent vehicle. I wouldn't dare take a chance on buying one (even assuming a positive financial case) because of the GM track record with new products. Let some other poor devils buy the Volts and let's wait a few years and see how it really does.
A poor company reputation is a really bad place to be, and GM management is to be blamed for the poor products they introduced over the years that were not ready for prime time.
Ignoring that I don't think GM should have been bailed out, the best they can do is focus relentlessly on quality, make what the market wants, and get that money paid back as soon as possible. It appears that they are doing well, but I am suspicious of residual old-school management, as well as the UAW.
I agree things are better and far more good than bad are happening. Keeping GM at a higher level of expectation by loving everything they do will not keep their focus, afaic.
Challenging them vs. the competition is healthy.
Go Hundee Boy, Go!
Regards,
OW
No, this is true. My major point is that THESE comments are what keep the discussion going.
Well, he had a chance to buy the CTS - a car that I happen to like, BTW - but he decided to buy the older, stodgier & much less appealing DTS instead.
I've always thought that the words "front-wheel drive" & "luxury sedan" don't belong in the same sentence, so the DTS would be just about the last car I'd consider.
Agreed, but without fierce competition from the imports, GM certainly would not have improved as much as it has.
OK, here goes.....Welcome to the annual Customer Auto Review of GM. We welcome all of the GM global management to hear the Voice of the Customer.
I am the voice of the customer for GM. BoD, stay seated and keep your mouth shut while I am speaking, please.
Let's get right down to brass tacks: (Remember that one?)
Regal should be 35MPG, Turbo, 300HP/300lb.-ft., 3,000 lbs I-4 at the current price. No Excuses, so get it out in April 2011.
Caddy should already have made the better 335I/328I. You have 6 months or you're all fired. The CTS is nice. reduce the price by 15% and keep your mouth shut.
Chevy should beat pricing for every foreign manufacturer's product and bury the CAFE rating (make it look comical). At the highest quality ratings. No excuses. (The Cruze should beat everything in the world at every statistical metric for it's category...for a cheaper price than anything imported or made in the USA by foreign-based competition.) Make the changes by end of Q2 2011. Next time, under advertise and over deliver, get it??? No more next time. Last chance. Elantra will remind you. Nothing is impossible unless you are still greedy. Are you?
GMC? Make trucks that are the envy of the world, not of the other divisions. All trucks come out of GMC or you're fired again! No need for clones anymore. Leave that to the Chinese, please. Chevy stops making trucks now. Period. Hard to swallow but this is a new beginning. You can make as many variations as the market wants but it needs to say GMC on them. If not, GMC is toast. You decide. Chevy Trucks, you say? GMC, turn out the lights.
This must happen or it's curtains once again. Make your plans and execute. Remember to keep your mouth shut and only focus on delivering product. The product will rule your future, not the phony ad campaigns.
Period. Any questions?
End of Meeting. You are excused to do the work everyone in the USA expects of you. Please go quietly and make it happen.
See you next year if you are still working here. :shades:
Regards,
OW
I believe that is because he wanted the larger, less sportier DTS, which brings me to your second point about FWD. In this day and age, I think that RWD is mostly associated with sport first.
Well, I'm no expert. Perhaps we should tax a portion of the savings that a company gets by manufacturing overseas as "imputed income". Perhaps we add a cost to cover the environmental damage done if the company makes products where controls are weaker. I don't tend to like just plain old tarrifs, but I could see using some sort of fee to compensate (some of) the effects on the economy.
Regards,
OW
Although of course, I don't disagree with such ideas.
But I fear GM has too many legacy execs to see it - the Volt resembling the Lumina styling-wise tells me there's still old blood everywhere. Bad old blood.
Regards,
OW
I get all I need and want in the Cadillac DTS. I know the DTS draws barbs from critics for being FWD, but tell me how well RWD would be in the recent snowstorm that hit the Northeast? My wife's FWD LaCrosse drove through this snowy mess effortlkessly while my RWD Grand Marquis left me slip sliding away. I would appreciate an AWD DTS or XTS in the future and Cadillac is on it. How come Acura doesn't draw criticism for FWD? Not only are they FWD but they've got no V-8!
Nothing wrong with a little Schuylkill Punch or a Delaware Daquiri either, (Philly drinking water)! :P
The V-8-6-4 was a great idea, the technology just wasn't there to support it. I beleive displacement on demand has once again been tried in trucks and SUVs, but I haven't heard anything good or bad about it recently.
Same thing with Congress...not enough change...
( I tried to bold a line of tlongs, but all it did was enclose this box in lines and squares and post nothing as above)
The absurdity of it all is that GM pioneered this multi-brand strategy, then lost sight of why that had it in the first place. While we might agree on the idiocy of 8-10 brands vs. 2-3, the basic concept is not so bad. But then when each brand dealer wants a "full line" they were all messed up.
Chevy is the entry division, but has the hottest sports car (Corvette).
Pontiac was the sporty division, but had no Corvette, and DID have rebadged entry-level Chevys.
GMC is the "professional" division, but has the same rebadged mommymobile Acadia as the Chevy Traverse. Chevy has the same trucks as the GMC division.
We won't even talk about Saturn, Hummer, and Saab (rebadged from jets!).
How stupid is all that?
It's all those idiotic divisions that cost GM money and helped them lose sight of what they were trying to do in the first place - make really good products.
(Don't forgot Buick leading up to Caddys, btw).
The difference is that the other manufacturers (even Ford) didn't go to the absurd number of divisions as GM. Take Toyota with Scion-Toyota-Lexus - there is a reasonable differentiation between them. Acura-Honda, similarly. BMW-Mini, again. Those all make sense. GM lost sight of the differentiations that each division stood for. So you ended up with 8 divisions, 8 sets of dealers, 8 brands to advertise, designs and molds for rebadged taillights, grills, etc., and the need for umpteen plants for manufacturing in all of those divisions. Talk about overhead!
"The company was first founded on September 16, 1908, in Flint, Michigan, as a holding company for Buick, .... It acquired Oldsmobile later that year. In 1909, Durant brought in Cadillac, Elmore, Oakland and several others. Also in 1909, GM acquired the Reliance Motor Truck Company of Owosso, Michigan, and the Rapid Motor Vehicle Company of Pontiac, Michigan, the predecessors of GMC Truck."
GM is down to 7 divisions now - Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden.
The more things change....
I was counting only US-sold divisions. You can add Saab, Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn so the previous total was 11. And the Chinese Buick is almost like yet another one. Yikes!
Really? All of the BMW & Mercedes sedans (I'm not talking about sports cars) sold here are RWD or AWD. None of them can be had with FWD.
Last time I looked, the CTS was available with AWD.
How come Acura doesn't draw criticism for FWD?
Oh, it does. Plenty of criticism.
When I saw that, way back when, I believed that GM was in trouble, simply because the price/status differentialtion that made GM the giant it was, was no longer the glue that kept the divisions with separate identities...
Add to that the years that a Caddy looked like a Chevy (remember the commerical where the dressed up couple takes their Lincoln from the valet while the other couples argued over who had the Caddy/Buick/Chevy because they all looked alike?) and you could see Sloan rolling over in his grave...
Remember when RWD was considered an anachronism?
We rented a DTS a couple years ago. It bowled us over...vault-like quiet, roomy, lots of power, great V8 sound (well, that bowled me over!), great ride...even my ten-year old daughter said at the time, "Dad, I'd give up the DVD player in the van for a car like this"!
As you know, most folks are very aware of perception of themselves. It's uncool to like a car like a DTS. I'd very much enjoy owning one--if there was still a Caddy dealer near me.
I liken the "perception" thing to my not liking to watch sports, and admitting to liking certain female singers and actors, not just he-man rockers and actors. People think you'll get your "guy card" taken away for saying those things. Same with liking an American car like the DTS these days.
How much snow did you guys end up getting, Lemko? We dodged this last bullet, only getting about an inch. Last year though, we got two snowstorms that dropped about 20+ inches apiece on us, and then a third that probably dropped another 12 or so, but it was hard to measure because the wind kept blowing it all around!
The only time I had any real problems with my '85 Silverado in those storms was if I got to a point with a hill that was too steep, and I couldn't get enough speed to get up it. Stopping was never a problem with that truck, but sometimes getting moving was. Heck, I swear that truck stopped better in the snow and ice than my FWD, ABS, 4wheel-disc Park Ave!
Oh, you'd get a kick out of this, Lemko... on Christmas Day, I got to see one of my old neighbors, the wife of the guy who helped me repaint my two Darts, used to put 350's in Chevy Vegas back in the day, and is probably a big reason why I love old cars so much. Well, they had moved from my neighborhood about 10 years ago, and I hadn't seen them since 2005. They live in southern MD, near my Mom. Well, she had said that all she thought she needed to feel rich was a paved driveway and a red Cadillac. She got her paved driveway when she moved to southern MD. The old house up here has about 500 feet of gravel.
And in 2005, she finally got her red Cadillac, a new DeVille. Or, were they calling it DTS by that time? When I was a little kid, she had a blue '69 or '70 Sedan DeVille. I remember riding in it a few times, and being mesmerized by the power windows. Yeah, we're simple people. Paved driveways, power windows...doesn't take much to keep us amused. :shades:
If you look at the commercials that the carmakers put out, BMW, Mercedes, and Infiniti all emphasize their sportiness. Caddy does this as well with the CTS and STS.
Don't forget the options list either. 45 yrs ago you could order a Nova with a "manual" (re: NO preset pushbuttons) AM radio. The pushbuttons were an option. Pushbuttons were standard on my Wildcat. There was probably no option for a power antenna on the Nova either (something the Wildcat has). A/C was available, but Buicks also had "climate control". Climate "control" in a CHevy was the fan speed and temp lever.
Also, 6 cyl engines were standard throughout the Chevy lineup (save the Vette). Buick had a 6 in the Special/Skylark only. V8's were standard everywhere else. Caddy's first 6 was the Cimmarron.
Nowadays, "options" that were considered "luxury" (pw, pdl, auto, A/C power seats, stereos) are standard pretty much in any size and "class" of car sold. THAT may have rendered the GM model obsolete more than anything else.
No sport, just oozing luxury.
You see, what I learned after my 2006 BMW experience is how far behind GM, Ford and C are when it comes to auto performance, luxury and precision in engineering. The fact that I did not believe until the drive. No USA built car is engineered better. Luxury included. Sure, living room cruising is best in a Caddy and Lincoln, no argument. The CTS has now just touched upon this with the V series vs. the M but all around, Caddy sits a few rows back in the opera house when it comes to a cohesive product in terms of luxury and precision.
No knock against your opinion but I know better. BMW 528i? Just don't opt for the sport suspension. 328i, same.
They might handle well but luxury is not out the window at any perspective.
Just IMHO, of course. Don't get me started regarding the 7 Alpina, please.
Sure, many can't afford it but off base referencing that BMW is not about luxury unless you only reference commercials, of course.
Regards,
OW
It depends on how they're equipped. My 3-series BMW, equipped with the optional sport package (firmer suspension, high-performance summer rubber, etc.) & a stick shift is certainly more sporty than lux. But a 5- or 7-series without the sporty pieces & with a slushbox are luxury cars.
If you drive the different variants, you'll see exactly what I mean.
The E-class Benz, which is the only MB that I've driven extensively, is a terrific car - it might just be the car that I'd pick if I had to spend 12 hours per day behind the wheel - but it's nothing that I'd call sporty. Chances are that you wouldn't, either, unless your frame of reference is something like a Ford Explorer. In that case, almost anything else would seem sporty.
The Lexus ES as well as Acuras are FWD.
And that's why many luxury car buyers won't even look at them. At best, they're entry-level luxury, with just one foot in the door. Almost no one (Lemko excepted) would seriously consider any FWD car to be an authentic luxury contender.
I've heard rumors that the next generation ES might be RWD/AWD.
If you look at the commercials that the carmakers put out, BMW, Mercedes, and Infiniti all emphasize their sportiness. Caddy does this as well with the CTS and STS.
I watch little TV, so I'll have to take your word for this. In any case, I wouldn't attach much importance to this. Of course, ads will emphasize whatever quality the ad makers think will sell cars. It might be sportiness one day & prestige or safety the next. Whatever works.
In any case, Caddy desperately has to win over would-be Euro buyers, since the premium Euro brands are now the most sought-after luxury models. So if the Euros are pushing sportiness, Cadillac has no choice but to follow suit.
I think they went to calling it just a DTS in 2006 with the redesign. You neighbor's car would be the 2000-2005 design. I wonder if her car is that beautiful Crimson Pearl finish? I had a 1994 DeVille finished in a gorgeous red called Carmine Red.
Heck, I got a kick out of power windows as a kid and got scolded a lot for playing with them if I was riding in a more affluent relative's car at the time. Heck, when I got my first car with power windows - a 1979 Buick Park Avenue, I thought back to the times I got my hand slapped as a kid and remarked, "Now I can play with the power windows all I want!"
I just looked up the 2005 Caddy colors, and "Crimson Pearl" was the only reddish color shown, so that must be it. It was a nice color, a deep, metallic red.
Lemko gets Caddy's that were made by hand by former Swiss watchmakers who wanted to make something with more precision and luxury that what they'd been doing. His cars have fewer issues than the Presidential limo.