Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

crkyolfrt

yes - i saw that he hadn't logged in since Aug/10..so that is recent in my books.
What is the magic cutoff date of posts that we should not reply to?

I find older posts interesting to reply to a few years later as we all can see how history has either supported or nullified our views and comments.

Some posts end up being timeless.

circlew

Timeless...like this:



The only GM total development concept that keeps evolving....



Regards,
OW

motorcity6

The American car is gone, and our buying habits with the aid of our government has hastened the change..Rolled my first car, 48 Chevy, Fleetmaster, no seat belts, no air bags, car was righted, towed to the nearest dealer, battery acid removed from engine components, and drove it back to my home town some 80 miles away..Local Chevy dealer did the body work and one never suspected the any accident damage..Yep, that Chevy was built like a tank, not a hot-rod, prior to the flipping, the engine was dismantled due to rod failure, too long in 2nd gear..Next set of wheels was a 50 Ford Crestliner, V-8 with overdrive, dual exhaust and carbs, 90 mph in second gear..some 53 cars later, all Detroit offerings except 2 Porsches, I will admit the American car is all but an afterthought..The glory days are gone..Spent 34 years as a supplier to the Big3 in various industries, and it was a fun trip..

Our politicans have spend most of their waking hours on a "mission" to destroy our auto industry under the guise of "protecting us." Live in Florida where we have the mandated seat belt law, never really used the belt, and I was ticketed lately, $116 for endangering my life..and I was also smoking at the time and I asked the officer if that was a ticketable offense at this time..nope, however flipping a butt out the window is a $500 tab..Luckily I had a cup of Starbucks coffee in the car with some liquid remaining and the butt was doused..I could do with a little less personal protection from the government and at the age of 77 it really is annoying..

My 2 cars, the Mustang GT and the Pontiac GPGT are somehow targets for the ticket-writers, and I behave in town, not a hot-rodder, however the interstate is another story and I-75 in my area, north or south is a roadway to really rock and roll..average speed is around 80 with triple digits probably 20% of the time..The cars love it, and it's a stress reliever..

I believe China will set the auto rules and styling in the future for they are the market leader in this day and age..Too bad you youngsters on this forum missed the "glory days" of the Big3, and yes, the Detroit guys did offer some pieces of junk, however, I did avoid every one of them..however I did supply parts for some of the junkers..

lemko

Wow, people who prefer to buy American-made American-branded vehicles are illiterate, hicks, and racists according to your post; an unbiased opinion from a guy whose tag is "anythingbutgm."

lemko

Picture Bill Sykes carrying an AK-47 and The Artful Dodger a Glock .40 caliber. Old Fagin would be a mafia don or a drug lord.

lemko

A better example is the NE Pennsylvania anthracite coal mines. You could work 16 hours a day, six days a week and still end up in debt because the house in which you lived was owned by the coal company and you had to pay rent. You had to buy all your mining supplies at the company store where prices were often 30% above retail. All your food, clothing, and household goods were also purchased at this rip-off establishment.

God help you if you were injured or killed in the mine. The company would just dump your carcass in the front door of the company house and toss your family and all your stuff on the street at the end of the month.

"Sir, there was a terrible explosion in the mine! Ten men and four mules were killed!"

"FOUR MULES?!?!? Heads will roll!"

marsha7

"You had to buy all your mining supplies at the company store where prices were often 30% above retail. All your food, clothing, and household goods were also purchased at this rip-off establishment."

Why???...why did you HAVE to buy stuff from them???...can't you just go to the next town and buy stuff where you want to???...kinda makes you wish walMart came to town...

fintail

What are you complaining about? It was all capitalism and free markets and free trade, so by that alone it has to be laudable. Just ignore the massive social injustice and the robber baron class. They earned what they took.

anythngbutgm

Re-read the post Lemko. Pay close attention to the "Invaders", the "[non-permissible content removed] rice burners", then form your own opinions. But it sounds pretty derogatory to me... :sick:

fintail

That's pretty much right. I have to wonder why anyone would pine for the good old sweatshop days. The injustices and abuses of that era led to the (rightful) rise of unions, which sadly then oftentimes got greedy, and now we're devolving again. Maybe starting off ethically would stop the whole problem.

lemko

I think the biggest problem is those who support this brand of hyper-capitalism gone psychotic truly believe they're going to end up on the side of the wealthy and privileged. Why not? Everybody likes to identify with the winners. Well, they've got a big nasty surprise awaiting them as they've got a lot more in common with the guy living in the 'hood then the guy living in Beverly Hills.

fintail

More that relates to "casino capitalism". It seems anyone with more than 3 figures in a 401K will support the demands of financial sector bandits and crony elite, in a deluded belief that they too will become this new aristocracy. If Warren Buffet can do it, why can't I, right? Newsflash to all the wannabe tycoons - you can't and won't do it. As you say, us everyday schmucks, some with a slightly larger nest egg than others, are much closer to the growing underclass than to 21st century royalty.

berri

Casino capitalism is a good term - people jump into the next trend without thinking it out independently, then get burned - pull out with a loss and reinvest in the next overpriced and hyped trend. Brokers get wealthy , but assets and capital are wasted and gone.

I don't see this stopping until we're close to bankrupt. Congress passes consumer financial protection legislation but its implementation is dragged out and delayed (of course, it was probably watered down to begin with). Commodities are turned into a speculative fervor screwing over consumers so the Wall Street insiders can make even more millions; $5 gas only means more money in their pockets. Face it, Wall Street is a huge political contribution player to BOTH parties. America doesn't usually change course very quickly either. We're still emphasizing things like history in high school while we fall further behind in math and science. And don't even think about teaching business related topics - let kids graduate without even a basic understanding of finance and commerce and then wonder why they jump into these dumb, greedy investments that later burn them.

fintail

When I was in Germany a couple months ago, I saw a great magazine cover relating to "casino capitalism" that pictured pigs at slot machines. I should have bought a copy :shades: ...of course, Germans aren't free from guilt in this mess, but they never got into a real estate bubble either. Leaders from both political aisles would kill to have their unemployment and industrial jobs today.

It's all a great transfer of wealth - trickle up economics. As you say, the same special interests control both parties, elections are more of an entertaining spectacle than anything meaningful.

I've long believed it is no coincidence that few kids receive any kind of financial education through high school and even many in college. I wonder who benefits from that.

uplanderguy

Whether a Chinese Buick is an American car or not, is purely academic as first, the Chinese home auto industry isn't hurting because of foreign competition. Lastly, no one on this board that I am aware of, can actually buy a Chinese Buick.

Similarly, I always get a chuckle when what is happening in today's U.S. manufacturing base is compared to the shrinking of America's agricultural base all those many years ago. The huge difference is, the many new jobs, good-paying ones at that, back then were still in this country. When manufacturing jobs leave the country today, those people often turn to jobs like WalMart because there is no other decent-paying blue-collar working situation in this country. And I'm speaking as a college-educated white-collar guy my whole life, and the son of a postal manager, so I have no union-factory mentality in me whatsoever.

At the end of the day, it's about taking care of our own house first.

And again...not all foreign nameplates are built here, and not all domestic nameplates are built in Canada or Mexico. It's easy to figure out. I often see the cop-out statement online "Most American brands are built in Canada or Mexico anyway". Where does that information come from? It's to make the import-buying poster feel good, that is all.

And the reason domestics build outside the U.S. is solely due to foreign competition--particularly building in Mexico which I find appalling...it is basically a third-world country with wages as such. I have to believe that without the wide-open door available to import manufacturers all these years, and the imports not having legacy costs, the need to outsource domestic production wouldn't have occurred.

Someone posted earlier about how WWII shouldn't be a factor in a car purchase. I can only speak personally here...for me the worst war events in the history of the world, only ended 65 years ago...not nearly long enough to forget. The car companies coveted today assisted in the war effort, widely, against our own soldiers. I know the arguments, so no need to rehash...'I know a Medal of Honor winner who drives an Audi/Lexus/fill in the blank'. That's OK of course. 'GM owned Opel and they were complicit'. I don't think anyone can logically compare Roosevelt to Hitler and Hirohito. I'm from a military family and I am also aware of the pain that war brought to 35 families in my small, close-knit hometown. While there are thousands alive on both sides who participated, I'm sure there are one-generation-removed from those fighters, citizens who dislike or detest the U.S. still from their countries losing the war, same as some people here think about them. The difference is, those people there are probably laughing at the way we practically worship their products.

I spent a weekend with several Battle of the Bulge veterans. Those guys are truly the greatest generation. I used to roll my eyes as a kid hearing guys my Dad's age tell "war stories". I have a much-greater appreciation of history now.

I think comparing my feelings about WWII, to the way I think people should stop whining about their bad cars from 20 years ago, is a very-unbalanced scale of what happened. But that's just me, and I won't bad-mouth anyone who feels differently (most people). And say what you will, because I won't post a response to anyone's response to this post.

Bottom-line for me, is I bought new domestic brands throughout the '80's and '90's. Some were better than others, but none left me stranded even once, and none were terrible. I certainly don't have the vitriol for them that I see on this board. Also, I like domestic styling better (almost always), I don't buy a car as a status symbol so I don't buy expensive cars although I could afford to buy more expensive than I do, and I wish to do the bottom-line best thing for our country in the process.

Incidentally, this is not a racist opinion as we have Chinese friends and I have known Japanese-Americans in my life and have always enjoyed them and treated them well, as they have me. And I am of German descent.

lemko

One things kid most definitely should've learned in high school is basic household and personal finance. It's sad that most people have to learn the hard way about credit and debt.

lemko

My Grandpop was a WWII Army veteran who served in Africa and Europe. My wife's father was a WWII Navy veteran who served in the Pacific. My Uncle Johnny was a WWII Army veteran who served in the Pacific.

My experiences with domestic cars pretty much mirror yours. I most definitely prefer domestic styling over European or Asian makes.

I have Chinese coworkers and they drive Chevrolets. I had a boss who was Japanese and I believe he was the best guy I ever worked for.

fintail

It's funny that in Europe, in some places that weren't exactly treated ethically by the "allies", there remains an affection for old British and American products. There's no problem finding British and American cars in Germany, but at the same time they haven't embarked in the same suicidal trading policies ("most favored nation") the US has, so they still have strong domestic industry.

The way I see it, nobody from the past has a right to a moral high ground. Either everyone is a criminal, or nobody is. Everyone has blood on their hands. If you don't want to buy a car connected to a place with old atrocities, you'd better start walking :shades:

jimbres

I have to believe that without the wide-open door available to import manufacturers all these years, and the imports not having legacy costs, the need to outsource domestic production wouldn't have occurred.

Ah, the "legacy costs" - quite possibly the least convincing argument in favor of buying domestic. The D3 willingly incurred these costs at a time when they monopolized the market because they stupidly believed that this monopoly would last forever & that they could always pass these costs on to us, the car buyers. We customers never had a chance to vote on this absolutely idiotic business decision, so it's not surprising that as soon as we had a chance to avoid paying these costs, many of us did.

The legacy costs argument reminds me of the man who murders his parents & then asks the court to have mercy on him - because he's an orphan.

lemko

I've got to admire the European's pride in their own products. If they were as reckless and self-destructive as the U.S., I doubt France or Italy would even have a domestic auto industry anymore and Germany's would be severely compromised. We all know what happened to the UK. I met a couple of guys from Germany who were big-time Cadillac enthusiasts. They found it funny that German cars were considered a status symbol in the U.S. whereas it's a big deal to have an American luxury car in their country.

fintail

What happened to the UK is more than likely to happen to the US . Everything becomes foreign owned, an Orwellian government takes over, and disastrous tense demographic policy becomes forced.

Of course, those European brands benefit from a fair dose of "socialism" either directly or otherwise. But, that's evil ...we can't support it, even if we buy products aided by the socialism of others.

Driving a 50s-60s Caddy convertible in Germany would probably get you more attention than a new Ferrari.

The funniest scene I know of is Switzerland, and Scandinavia, especially Sweden. Big American cars have huge followings in both places. I was amazed at the amount of both late model and older American cars in normal service in Switzerland.

tlong

Uplander, thanks for the honest story about your background and preferences.

The manufacturing jobs problem is a tough one. The problem is that we aren't the only country on the planet. Seems to me that either we are isolationist, which means we will pay more and likely not have the best products - something that won't keep us in the top tier of countries either, or we have today's situation. I don't particularly like it either, but it's sort of like medicine - you don't want to take it but you realize you should.

Looking at an alternate scenario where we HAD been more protectionist, I see products would have been a lot more expensive due to US labor. And so of course if the salaries of US citizens are the same, there are fewer sales, so then jobs start getting lost anyway. In thermodynamics, energy is neither created or destroyed - it is conserved. I think economics are similar. We can't borrow our way to prosperity, and we can't protect our way to prosperity, either.

This country is no more or less than the value of its goods and services and the quality of its workers' output. That isn't going to change regardless of what other countries are doing. There are lot of very smart people in the rest of the world, and we don't get a choice as to whether we put up with the effects of those people. Being (economically) on top for 50 or more years while the rest of the world is hungry for advancement means that they are more willing to work hard - they are hungrier for success than the mass of complacent U.S. citizens are. I don't see an easy way out of that. And in the protectionist scenario, I don't want the U.S. to devolve to a situation like Eastern Europe was in a while back - protected, lazy, backward. Driving Trabants around. Never having the latest technology. I don't see that as a good choice, either. I think we need to suck it up and be more innovative instead of crying about how unfair it all is. No scenario is easy, and we won't be prosperous if we don't work hard to make it so.

jimbres

You'll be happy to hear (if you didn't already know this) that Cadillac is the ride of choice for Japanese gangsters.

lemko

Cadillac is the choice of gangsters or gangstas everyhere! Cadillacs are better than Lincolns fuhgeddaboutit! :P

crkyolfrt

Good post. Uplander's post I also appreciated.

While I agree, we need to suck it up and be more innovative , we create an additional onus on ourselves in NA. Probably because we see ourselves as superior to the rest of the world, and in order to help justify our stance, we impose regulations (environmental for example) that within the level of those restrictions, we can use as an excuse to defend that stance if/when we fall short competitively.

marsha7

(Hitting reply button, like I always do... :P ...)

"We customers never had a chance to vote on this absolutely idiotic business decision, so it's not surprising that as soon as we had a chance to avoid paying these costs, many of us did."

But we DID have a chance to vote on it, and we voted with our feet...and walked into Honda and Toyota and Nissan dealers, and bought what we believed was a better product, and it usually was...

tlong

(Hitting reply button, like I always do...

So you CAN teach an old dog new tricks! :P :surprise: :shades:

circlew

Hope you feel better now.

I'll by a GM when all other car companies go bankrupt and are not rescued....and GM is the only car company selling vehicles in the USA!

Now I feel better! Go Hyundai and Kia. Saw the '11 Optima and it's really nice!

Regards,
OW

jimbres

I'm proud of you, Bob. I also agree with your post.

andres3

Chrysler's quality control was pretty horrible in the early 1990's, when some of the new designs came out. The Neon (which came out around Feb/March of 1994, but as a 1995 model) seemed like an awesome car at the time, but would soon prove to be horrible. I believe air conditioning and head gaskets were the biggest culprits..... And Mopar 4-speed automatics, whether it was the unit in the FWD cars or the RWD trucks, weren't so hot

Don't forget the 3-speed automatic from Chrysler was a huge culprit as well, as it was no star itself (oh why oh why did they use it in the Neon mid-90's) It was known to be a terrible transmission and likewise, gave me all of a pathetic 65,000 miles of use in a 132 HP engine?

dieselone

I bought a new '95 Neon sport coupe with the DOHC 150hp 2.0L with a 5 speed manual. I put nearly 70k on it during the 3 years I had it. I never had any mechanical trouble with it, but a buzz box it was. It made my wife's '92 Saturn SL2 2.0 sound refined.

andre1969

Believe it or not, that little 3-speed was one of Chrysler's best transmissions by the 1990's! Part of it was by default though, as the old, rugged RWD 3-speed Torqueflite was phased out once the final RWD cars rolled out in 1989, although it probably persisted in trucks awhile longer.

But Chrysler's first 4-speed FWD transmission, the "UltraDrive", which came out in 1988 or 1989 with the FWD New Yorker and Dynasty, was horrible. And I'm not convinced they ever got it fully right. It actually wasn't too bad as long as the car wasn't too heavy or torquey, but in later years it was also engineered to somehow "dump" some of the hp along the way to the drive wheels, so that it would last longer, but you didn't get the performance promised by that horsepower. For instance, my 2000 Intrepid had 200 hp, and would do 0-60 in about 9.5 seconds. A 2000 LeSabre also had 200 hp, but would do it in about 8.0. Of course, having a 3.8, versus the tiny 2.7 in my car, probably helped a bit.

When they started putting 4-speed automatics in the RWD Dodge trucks, they were pretty bad, too. But that little 3-speed that the Neon used, actually traced back to the 1978 Omni and Horizon, so Chrysler had decades to get the bugs worked out!

I had a 1988 LeBaron turbo coupe that was a fairly good car up to around 90,000 miles. Incidentally, that was when I divorced my wife, and let her have it. Now admittedly, she didn't take care of it, and it got stolen and abused a few times, but that sucker was basically dead at around 118,000 miles. At that point the turbo was dead, head gasket blew, engine was just about shot, a/c compressor seized up, power antenna was broken, trip computer was on the fritz and would lie to you about how much gas was left, and she had to have the radiator replaced recently. The transmission was the only trouble free part of that car!

Still, I've had a lot of good Chrysler products over the years, and would consider another. I was happy with my 2000 Intrepid, and still miss it sometimes.

berri

Ironically, I can see soaring energy and commodity costs bringing some manufacturing back to the US because of transportation costs and inflating foreign currencies. Also, if China's Hu gets his wish for reducing world dollar dominance that may end up biting China's exports because it will be much more difficult and expensive for them to manipulate the Yuan, and the loss of dollar dominance will likely cause their currency to soar.

igor7

Strangely, American cars sometimes appreciated better abroad than at home.
I was surprised to see Chevrolet Malibu in basic configuration selling for $45,000 in Israel (see here: http://used-cars-for-israel.com/)

fintail

I suspect prices there are similar to Europe, where a quoted price is "on the road" and includes taxes and fees. I remember reading something years ago about insane new car taxes in Israel.

They offer it there at that price, but how many actually sell?

cooterbfd

"......can't you just go to the next town and buy stuff where you want to???..."

In what?? The car they couldn't afford?? That's why they lived in company housing. They could walk to work. Go to an old NE mill city. All you'll see are triple deckers for blocks around the mills.

marsha7

Yes, even old dogs can learn something...tricks, I am not sure, but something... :confuse:

marsha7

They had no cars???...maybe I am simply not familiar with something that you seem to know much about...

cooterbfd

There were plenty of people 50, 60, 70 years ago that couldn't afford a car working in a factory. Go back even further and your talking about a time when cars were toys. So, you had no choice but to buy locally, and the "next town over" didn't qualify as locally.

lemko

The Kensington section of Philadelphia is a good example of a factory neighborhood. Blocks and blocks of row houses were situated close to the factories in which the residents once worked. Now Kensington is a blighted urban wasteland where violence and decay rules. About the only things now made there are crack rocks, methamphetamine, and "blunts."

lemko

The filthy rich capitalist scumbags who ran the mines in NE PA barely paid their workers enough to eat let alone have luxuries like cars. Some truly wicked coal mine operators paid their workers in company script that was only good at the afformentioned company store. I hope these pigs are now in hell being burned by flames fueled by the coal that once provided their ill-gotten riches.

andres3

But that little 3-speed that the Neon used, actually traced back to the 1978 Omni and Horizon, so Chrysler had decades to get the bugs worked out!

That's my point. Chrysler used a transmission from the 70's in a car that was supposed to be of the 90's. The mechanic even said something like "I can't believe they are still using that old 70's era tranny sill in these cars," as he handed me the $1,200 tranny rebuild repair work order breakdown to be paid.

Best tranny Chrysler had in the 90's??? Obviously, not ALLL the bugs were worked out, as mine had to be replaced between 60,000 and 65,000 miles.

RIP 3 Speed transmission 0-65,000 miles (died an early death even though tranny was serviced and transmission fluid changed at all heavy use recommended intervals of 15K, 30K, and 45K miles).

I believe for every 100 bad reviews you read about the old Neons on Edmunds or MSN user reviews about 10 to 20 will mention a bad transmission.

tlong

The Kensington section of Philadelphia is a good example of a factory neighborhood. Blocks and blocks of row houses were situated close to the factories in which the residents once worked. Now Kensington is a blighted urban wasteland where violence and decay rules. About the only things now made there are crack rocks, methamphetamine, and "blunts."

There's an article in today's WSJ that indicates US manufacturing is on the rebound. Perhaps the issue is more Philly than manufacturing in general?:

"U.S. manufacturing, viewed as a lost cause by many Americans, has begun creating more jobs than it eliminates for the first time in more than a decade."

anythngbutgm

Robin Meade had a poll on her show this morning and the US is still number 1 in the world for manufacturing...

Perhaps the issue is more Philly than manufacturing in general?

Agreed. Detroit started falling apart more than 40 years ago and has yet to recover. Whether or not the same happens to Philly rests in the hands of the city counsel.

IMO what happened to places like Detroit should have created a lot of lessons learned for other cities. We had areas of Boston, MA that were in need of help too and thankfully change is taking place there.

motorcity6

Lots of empty plants in Michigan, however our southern neighbor gets the blessing for new engine plant..Maybe the UAW will now head to old Mexico and organize, creating a new middle class...The USA goes to Mexico and Canada while the Asians and Europeans come to the America to build cars..

Having been exposed to the auto business from 1967-2002, it was a blast and let's face it, our politicans on both sides had the "wrecking bar" hellbent on killing the industry..

Drive what ever makes you happy...You know what I drive, all red, white, and blue...We all have a choice..

marsha7

"Some truly wicked coal mine operators paid their workers in company script that was only good at the afformentioned company store"

That is interesting...I did not know that...the only thing I know about the "Company Store" is the song "Sixteen Tons", but I never really knew what it meant...

fezo

Back in college I had a girlfriend who lived in a company town - but not to the point of being paid in company script. The company did own all the houses in town, the grocery store and the gas station.

I happened through there a couple of years ago and it's changed a great deal. Those company houses are now individually owned. Solid little things but definitely cheap. The demographics have changed with the times as well. Used to be all Baltic and Japanese (there's still a Buddhist temple in town) but now it's largely black and Hispanic.

The factory is still going.

cooterbfd

Part of the whole "robber baron" mentality

cannon3

If Americans would think about their purchases and how it affects or may affect them in the long term this economy would turn on a dime. Buying forgein goods and services does NOTHING to help ensure you economic stability, or our childrens. You can still buy many goods and services here in the U.S. via the internet. Yes, you may have to wait a few days to get your item. As I listen to all these cities/schools ect crying about lack of tax revenues or budget deficits.. I sure would like to ask some of them what they drive? or how they spend their money? Buying American does matter. You can say "I buy what I want" Thats all good until you loose your job... We are all connected in this economy, when we ALL figure this out the economy will rebound.

roadburner

I buy American when the product meets my needs. I'll even give the American product the nod if it's more expensive than the competition. That sai, if American companies don't sell a product that I want I'll buy elsewhere.
For example, I wanted a streetfighter style motorcycle. Should I have purchased a Harley Fat Boy or a Victory Eight Ball -to "support America"- even if it meant that I'd hate riding it? Or should I have done without a bike altogether?