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Have to agree with you about the 1948 Fleetmaster. There's one sitting in my garage right now -a 2 door Town Sedan. Other than having fat chrome wheels with radial tires, and, a deep burgundy red paint job, she's the way she rolled out of the factory.
Regards:
OldBearcat
Too bad so others don't. Japanese and Korean cars by the boat load and all that Chinese junk. What's so complicated ?
Granted the labor unions are partly to blame for the junk they produced in the 70's and 80's but not today.
What's to figure out?
Buy locally produced goods or wait for Uncle Sam to cloth and take care of your family by borrowing more $$$ from China and Korea. I have been telling my wife this for over 10 years but do you think you can get a politician to understand. A dense bunch those folks in Washington! The first politician that comes out and says that Free Trade isn't free as it works today will be elected President.
+1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Capital_Management , mmm Dan Quayle is there spokeman, but yepper doozy folks, you just keep buying the AMERICAN cars, My Blazer left me stranded 8 times the 1st 3 years, looking at a tacoma, made in USA, 80% US parts. My Motorcycle, a honda made in Ohio, 25000 in 2 1/2 years, just change the oil (and tires now)more american than harley, sad but true.
As long as we keep making excuses for them, the more they will ship overseas.
I live by an GM Engineer (My family is full of them, my father and grandfather retired from gm, the GM engineer, says he shops at walmart, the king of china goods, talks about its a global climate and says were un-american if we dont by GM in the same sentence, WOW, whats wrong with this picture.
I know for a fact, the big 3 were givin the same deals the [non-permissible content removed] were in michigan as far as tax breaks, even more so to stay here, they said they can make more profit in china.
[non-permissible content removed] come here, they get paid about the same, as union workers, they build a good car,
whats wrong with this picture,
You do not stay in business by throwing B.S. and building inferior product even if you are the biggest at some point.
As other corporations have followed the GM, et al. formula, you have what you have today in the good 'ole U.S.A.
GM's market share hasn't moved an inch in 18 months post-C-11. That's the fact. 19%.
The challenge has been set and it's time to stop the endless rantings and defense of failed business models and protectionist B.S.
You want protection? Win in the market. Don't keep crying.
Just do it. :shades:
Regards,
OW
I see you're new here - we try to stay away from terms like "[non-permissible content removed]" that could be seen as offensive, and don't advance the conversation. Thanks!
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But those memories of junk linger for a long time...maybe $20-25 grand isn't much to you, but for those who repeatedly bought Big 3 junk and were mistreated or highly dissatisfied with the workmanship, they went out, bought Japanese and were happy, it is difficult to bring them back...
Your simplistic dismissal of their concerns (i.e.labor unions [ah, the UAW again] and junk) is interesting...
We all understand the conundrum of buying the "better" product (assume Japanese cars) and having the $$$ go overseas...but when it comes to a car I can depend on or a piece of junk, I will spend my money on the better car, and I don't care where the money goes...I do care, we all care, but I am not able to throw away mega-thousands of $$$ on junk just to keep the money here and make you happy...
Why not tell the UAW to step up to the plate and make a car as good as the Japanese or the Koreans...the fault is not mine, it is THEIRS...they sabotaged their own products, THEY show up to work drunk, THEY installed doors that won't shut, THEY installed hoods that won't close, THEY left loose parts so doors rattle with loose screws while you drive...why don't you attack the cause of the Big 3 desertion, instead of waving the flag for rotten products???
If the Big 3 made a car as good as the Accord, and paid their unskilled labor what they are worth instead of three times what they are worth, they would never have been in this predicament...
Having lived in Detroit in the 80s, I saw first-hand what trash made up the UAW membership...their slogan was "Buy American, Save Your Neighbor's Job"...no mention of making a better car, or apologizing for years of junk from the 70s, just save their worthless UAW member's job...I bought 4 Hondas in the 80s because Big 3 cars were hardly qualified as boat anchors...
When we make the best product, not the best deceptive advertising, we will put Honda out of business...knowing how the Big 3 worked then, and probably work now, that ain't gonna happen...
Destroy the UAW, and we WILL make the best cars...
A $250 Billion dollar a year trade defecit with China is what is going on. Chevy makes an entire lineup of solid vehicles. 4 are Consumer's Digest Best Buys. One is Truck of the Year. The Other 2 are Cruze and Tahoe. All the GM's that have got me around for 40 years have not stranded me even 3 times yet. Even my Ford has only needed one seven dollar part in 5 years. The ratio of repair costs to traffic ticket costs for the Mustang in 5 years is 1:100. With gas up 57% under Obama and his offshore drilling ban, the 40 mpg Cruze may be worth the $17,900 sticker.
Well, I'll take a different flavor...Sonata 2.0T which will get 34mpg but will allow the Cruze to follow everywhere it will travel. For $25 large, it'll be my pick.
Worth the 6mpg and then some. Come to think of it, will also allow the Regal Turbo to follow between it and the Cruze all day long....while delivering better MPG's than the poor Buick Regal! How sad!
Get used to looking at this for a long time, GM!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
If you are worrying about jobs, take a look at where your new car is assembled. Buy an Accord before a Fusion. There are many foreign makes assembled here and many US nameplates assembled in other countries.
And I don't hear too much about the Sonata's two recalls. Has the Cruze been recalled yet?
Why can't people on these forums tip their hat when GM does something right? It's like Fonzie on "Happy Days' when he couldn't force his lips to say he was "w...w...w....w....wrong"! Talk about hanging onto something for too long.
Hundai 2.0T is the fastest car out there?
So what.
My son just got a ticket for 3 over the limit that cost $225 plus another ins hike for 3 more years. That was in a 150 hp 13 yr old green Mustang.
272 ft-lbs in a turbo getting 33 mpg tops my 282 ft-lb SC '96 that only got 31 mpg hwy. But not by much. Let's see if the turbo can do 180k maint free miles like the SC has.
Do you mean '06? I don't believe the 3800 was offered in a GP in '96
I don't know how you pulled that off. My wife's '07 Grand Prix with N/A 3800 has never seen 30 mpg on hwy and makes a lot of hwy trips and she rarely drives faster than 70. Maybe at 55 mph, but who drives that slow?
BTW, the EPA ratings for a supercharged GranPrix is 17city/26 hwy, that's not an insignificant difference from 22/33 in the Sonota.
Maybe I drive to aggressive, but I've only had one car would occassionally beat the EPA ratings and that was a '00 VW Jetta TDI 5speed that would get 50-51 hwy when it was rated at 49.
Hyundai sold about 540,000 cars in the US last year
60% made in South Korea
US sold 5,000 cars in South Korea last year
Import tariff on cars imported from South Korea: 2.5%
`
Import tariff on cars imported into South Korea from US: 8%
Our nit-wit trade negotiators have agreed to remove our 2.5% tariff while they lower theirs to 4%. In my opinion they should have increased the tariffs to 10% or more, forcing them to build another plant in the US.
Also buying a foreing nameplate car in South Korea subjects the buyer to a tax audit by the government. How many in our country would buy a Hyundai if it came with an IRS tax audit.
Now China is "buying" the technology from GE to manufacture large aircraft jet engines. Apparently they want to compete with Boeing and Airbus. It seems only a matter of time before Boeing's and GE's manufacturing jobs
disappear like so many others.
I have not heard one politician talk about these issues. Any one of them that would, Democrat, Rebublican or Independent would get my vote.
I have heard Donald Trump talk about what chumps our trade negotiators are, and how other countries laugh at us behind our backs. I wouldn't be surprised if these "negotiatiors" were taking money from the countries they are negotiating with. Who is looking out for the economic well-being of our country and its labor force? Free Trade?
How about Fair Trade!
That must have been a local bandit that gave out a ticket for 3 over. That is outrageous to me. I can regularly follow police cars going 8 over the limits in this area--and they aren't on emergency calls.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I can't tell you how many times, I've driven by a cop with the cruise set at 75 on I57 heading to Chicago (65mph limit, yes Illinois SUCKS) and I've yet to be stopped. I've been pulled over once in Indiana for 5mph over, but I was given a warning.
But over the years, particularly when I was in sales driving 30k+ a year, I would generally get a ticket ever 3 mos, but that was in Ohio, where the highway patrol are like flies. I probably have spent enough on tickets to wholely subsidize a squad car.
Dave has a '96 supercharged Riviera. I wish I could get 31 mpg out of my 2000 Park Ave! I actually did manage to get something like 29.5 once, almost pure highway driving. And surprisingly, I had three people on board, there was some really hilly terrain, and I wasn't exactly babying the car!
But then there's been times when I'd try to baby it, and on flatter terrain, and with just me on board, and the mpg wouldn't be as good.
I think my Park Ave was rated at 18/27 originally, but with the new figures is a more piggy 16/25. The Riv was probably similar.
That's right, I forgot he had a Riv. According to the EPA site it's rated 16/25.
I had to drive my grandpa's '00 Park Ave from Tampa to Ohio and with just me, I avg. in the mid to high 20's and that was with a n/a 3800. That's still good IMO since I drove 75 to 80 mph stopping only for fuel and food/restroom breaks.
What makes you think the UAW workers are "unskilled." Are the non-union workers in Honda and Toyota plants also "unskilled" or is that adjective reserved for the UAW? What about calling them "trash." You don't know these people. I think it's unfair of you to lump them all together with a few bad apples. I imagine there are more than a few "Jerry Springer Show" types in those Honda and 'Yota factories. Would you like to have your salary cut by 66% or more because some empty corporate suit deemed you and your labor as "unskilled."
Funny how I'm still driving a 1989 Cadillac Brougham after all this time. If this car is a "boat anchor," imagine what it would be like if they tried?
I never got less than 30 in my Ultra. And yes, that was doing around 60. My father got 34 in his '88 PA doing 55-60 with 4 adults in it ( that car coasted like no car I've ever seen though). My uncle used to get 28-29 going to Fla in his Ultra doing 75-80.
Why can't people on these forums tip their hat when GM does something right?
I'd say kudos to GM for putting out the Volt -- an impressive technological achievement. They also put it out on time, which is saying something.
But I'd liken the Volt to the space shuttle - technologically impressive, but economically a big failure. There is certainly NO cost effective reason to own a Volt. And it's not that green, either. In CA I would pay MORE to drive the Volt on electric power than on gas, given today's prices for both here.
The stratospheric rise in fuel prices is another issue for another topic, but $4/gallon gasoline is as sure a way to kill the feeble economic recovery as a Drano and lacquer thinner martini with a cyanide "olive" will kill a man. I don't know about a Cruze, but I'll check out the Buick variant if it turns out to be "all that" in light of psychotic pump prices fueled by stupid political decisions and evil greedy speculators.
I've only had one leave me stranded (my one month old SVT Contour back in 1998) which turned out to be a short to the fuel pump. Still, I've had several that were perfectly reliable, but horrible in terms of being satisfying.
I've read about 3 domestics taking a trip on a flat bed with Edmonds long term tester vehicles. A 2007 Silverado (transmission failure), 2010 Camaro (transmission failure), and their current 2011 Mustang (fuel delivery issue).
I'll tell ya, in Mass. (not that they don't give tickets out, they do) People do 80 on the highway in the high speed lane. When a Statey comes up behind you, everybody just pulls over and lets them on by w/o missing a beat.
And GM is already planning on ramping up production to meet demand:
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/23/report-gm-to-double-chevy-volt-production-cap- acity-in-2012/">link title
You mean GM anticipates higher demand....
When does the EV rebate expire? Doesn't it only apply to the first x-amount? Once the rebate is gone, I really have a hard time believing GM will be selling 120k+ year unless the price is reduced. There will be more competing vehicles too.
Even with gas at $5/gal a 20 mpg car being driven 15k/yr will spend $312/mo on fuel. A $600-700/mo volt is still a tough sell IMO. I certainly could be wrong. It's not like many consumers are smart about spending money. So maybe GM's marketing arm can find a way to convince buyers that spending $600+/mo to save $200-300 mo on gas is a win/win.
You know the Hyundai 4-door Sonata is a nice looking car and if the 4-banger tickles your fancy, then hop on...A turbo would be a plus if it doesn't fall apart at 101k...
My GP was a used car w/4300 miles at time of purchase at the local Caddy dealer, half of original price and loaded w/all goodies..Living in S. Florida the a/c runs from April thru Oct, so the 260hp handles that duty well without hestition..Yes the top end is short of the Mustang mark by about 5 MPH, however the S/C 3.8 would probably blow up at any sustained speeds above 125..
The Pontiac is a mixed bag, not the best handling or the most comfortable, and sure not hi-tech..Problem areas have been steering shafts, tires, and alignment..The Pontiac dealer sells Buicks & GMC trucks, however they can't do a good alignment, so since the GT is basically a W-body Chevy, I had the Chevy do the alignment in relocating the struts..No mechanical problems, synthetic oil change every 6k..I run T-rated Michelin Harmony tires instead of the H-rated as specified..Orig H-rated Michelins were junk, and the 2nd set were H-rated Hankooks, more junk. 10k miles, cupped out-scrapped..
I think the Hankooks were a product of Korea, and I won't go into that area..never buy tires at the car dealer and expect them to do a proper job on alignment and force balancing..
I use a small garage that is a Tire Rack installer for all maintainance and oil changes, ain't cheap but satisfaction is worth the price..He also does the brakes and tires on the 2002 Camry XLE in my garage..I go to the Camry dealer for oil changes just to listen to the service chatter of trying to change all the belts or whatever else they can sell. After owning 53 cars and a few million miles of pounding the pavement our Big3 cars aren't too bad..Yes, Detroit did produce the Vega, Chevette, Pinto, Corvair, Omni, Horizon, Falcon, and the small Chevy-Caddy.which sounded like a sweet-roll..
The X-body which started out as a Chevy-Citation was no great shakes either but the X-body spread out to Buick, and Pontiac which corrected some of the ills..All in all we had the world by tail for awhile..
No electric cars in my garage..
My opinion of the Sonota is that it's a legit competitor in the family sedan market. I know two people with Sonatas and current model and a previous one. Both love them and find them reliable. I doubt I'd buy one, but I do find them appealing.
The Pontiac is a mixed bag, not the best handling or the most comfortable, and sure not hi-tech..Problem areas have been steering shafts, tires, and alignment.
That's pretty much how I view my wife's 07 GP. It has 80k on it and while it's been reliable, it's far from good handling, good riding, or comfortable, plus it's butt ugly inside and out.
Always remember, lemko, that far too many people had lousy experiences with Big 3 cars than you might care to admit...I am quite sure that there are also many more folks than you that had similar experiences to yours, or the Big 3 would not have lasted as long as they did...
But folks bought import cars for a reason, and Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans were not bought for status (unlike, say, MB, Audi, Porsche, etc) they were bought because millions of folks wanted an alternative to the Big 3 product...often, they discovered that their import was built much better than their previous Big 3 vehicles, and the imports had a customer for life, or darned close to life...as I have stated earlier, my Hondas from 85-88 were some of the best made and best designed vehicles I have ever seen (my opinion, only)...
Like it or not, Americans bought millions of imports because they were fed up with the junk from Big 3...now, you can dispute my term "junk", but since imports often cost more than the Big 3 product, they bought them willingly and apparently liked them...that is a simple fact...whe Big 3 market share went below 50%, one must admit that the Big 3 didn't just lose those customers, they PUSHED them away, and poor quality and workmanship would probably be 2 reasons high on the list...I doubt it was the choice of paint colors that drove people to buy the imports...
First, for some strange reason their employees seem to be more loyal to the union than the employer that butters their bread. You see this "us versus them" whenever there are company meetings like Obama's trip awhile back to Detroit. The workers wear UAW caps, not Ford or GM ones. That says a lot and leads me to believe they will never have a workforce that can excel. That's not the case at other unionized companies. If you visit a John Deere town for example (and ironically they are UAW as well) you see their green everywhere, not union hats and t-shirts even though they can have disagreements or strikes at times. You can belong to a union and still support your company's success, except apparently at D3 facilities.
Second, Ford's labor strategy that appears to continually cave in to the union. It really paid dividends for Ford when the union screwed them over after the GM and Chrysler concession, even though Ford had financial issues and disadvantages at the time. Now I read that Ford is going to invest over $400M into its Kansas City plant. Now this was one of the most militant plants against helping Ford after the other firms' BK. While there were some state incentives, still at some point management has to take a stand and send the union a lesson. This plant should be shutdown, rather than rewarding this local UAW anti company attitude and approach. Even Mullaly's former employer has become fed up at the Boeing union militancy and is building new facilities in right to work South Carolina.
Funny, but Lemko that couldn't that colorful description really fit a BMW or MB driver too?
LOL, being that I live near the University of Illinois, I see the above in spades. Then add goofy professor mobiles. I've even seen a few Zap cars running around. They look like an egg on wheels.
Back in the day when Smart cars were grey market, they were selling those things for 25K+++ to overmonied fools who wanted them as a way of making a visual statement while sacrificing practicality and delivering mediocre mileage. Geniuses. Now that they are cheaper, the rich poser crowd lost interest.
Oh yeah, and of course a Prius is a great late swiller mobile.
Isn't that the truth. I see Smart cars quite often too.
Oh yeah, and of course a Prius is a great late swiller mobile
LOL, they are every where. Not pretty either.
All this rehetoric about Hondas made in Ohio, and Nissans in Tennesse, BMW in S. Carolina. Folks, there is much more to this. Please google what these plants cost the states in tax subsidies. Find out most of the Americans working in these plants are assembling the vehicles. I am in no way a union supporter. I believe in working hard, getting paid what the market will bare for the skills you have. If you don't feel you are getting a fair wage at company A, you can find another job at company B if they are willing to pay you more.
That is one of the benefits of living here in the United States. You are free to find opportunity.
In short, YES it matters if it is made here in the U.S. THINK about it. More jobs to Americans, less poverty, more money to fund schools, fund cities, states, universities. More Americans working will mean greater prosperity for everyone, even the rich.
Sorry, lemko, all you have stated is pure emotion, altho if you are too big to fit in one that is a good reason not to buy one...
They weren't PERCEIVED to be better, they WERE better, at least for many folks...I doubt that the millions of folks who bought Hondas and other imports, over and over again, were not car mavens like us here at edmunds...they were just ordinary folks who were tired of boat anchors that broke down, rattled everywhere, and were a waste of money...
You seem to forget that they were ALL Big 3 buyers, until SOMETHING drove them away (no pun intended) from GM, Ford and Chrysler...they had been biased TOWARD Big 3 for years, and yet they still deserted them...why???...it is quite obvious, and you (and rocky) are the ONLY ones who have no idea why...
They were given something better...not PERCEIVED to be better, just a truly better car...tighter, no rattles, ergonomically designed (maybe not for you basketball players) doors that shut like a vault, etc.
The average joe on the street simply wants a reliable and quality car, and from the amount of loss of market share, it is obvious that the Big 3 didn't give it to them, or they would have stayed with the Big 3...
If everyone had your experience, then we wouldn't even be able to spell Honda today...but multiple millions did NOT have your experience, and the Big 3 did not care, they just kept making the same trash for DECADES...not just a year or two, but almost a full generation of junk came out of Detroit...intelligent buyers had to desert them in droves, because quality and workmanship only showed up in UAW ads, not UAW products...
The numbers speak for themselves, lemko...and maybe plain vanailla cars is what folks really want, hence the success of Accord, Civic, Camry, Corolla...you say they are ugly and unimaginative...you may be right...but they were built well, because millions of people bought them after being screwed by the Big 3...they sought something better, and, like it or not, they found it...and it may take another generation or two before some of them EVER come back to a UAW product...
But your comment about the import auto plants is not quite accurate...the employment of Americans, IMO, far outweighs the short-term tax benefits they receive...remember, they usually build those plants in areas where the property tax revenue was already quite low (wilderness territory), so giving them a tax abatement costs the state almost nothing anyway...yet the payroll and increased standard of living offered the new employees I think brings a much greater benefit than the supposed cost, plus, the tax benefit will extinguish at some point (5, maybe 10 years) and then rural proeprty that originally generated no tax revenue at all will then generate millions in proprerty taxes, plus still have the payroll and other supporting businesses that spring up to support the auto plant...
What is the differerence if your cousin assembles a Chevy or a Honda if both plants were given tax abatements for the plant to be built???...you are criticizing the tax benefits given to imports, yet I am sure that Tennessee gave GM a great benefit to locate the saturn plant in Spring Hill, and we see what happened to saturn and GM...
Might as well give the tax benefits to a company that makes cars that people want to buy, which kinda kills the Big 3, if you catch my drift...
Kill the UAW, save the US economy...