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Comments
It is NOTHING compared to the money spent on GM alone by the taxpayers. Plus, the new business of these manufacturers supports numerous other businesses, and raises the entire area's tax base. What has the failure of GM done for the tax base in Michigan?
Your view of the tax and jobs situation is far too simplistic.
They weren't PERCEIVED to be better, they WERE better, at least for many folks...I doubt that the millions of folks who bought Hondas and other imports, over and over again, were not car mavens like us here at edmunds...they were just ordinary folks who were tired of boat anchors that broke down, rattled everywhere, and were a waste of money...
Another thing that is fairly unique to lemko is that he likes big barges, which is where the US makes have typically been much better.
But if you look at it more broadly, what type of car do most youngsters want to buy after they first get their license? They want a new car! And they are going to buy one of the less expensive ones, which means a smaller car! And who makes the best small cars!? Correct, certainly not the US nameplates.
Take my example. I graduated HS in the early '70s. I bought a used VW Bug as I was a starving college student. My richer friend had saved $4K and bought a shiny new '74 Vega GT! And within 3 years it had rust HOLES around the windshield and rear hatch window! And this is in a non-salt, non-snow environment! And then at 55K his engine failed!
Such a wise proposition for the D3 to think it was not important to make competitive smaller cars, because "they weren't as profitable". Except that they were killing their future business!
China isn't growing because the US has social welfare errors.
Like anything, speaking in absolutes here isn't completely factual. I think generally that people are "followers" and don't do a lot of research into stuff. I used to get Japanese rental cars into the '80's and was always amazed how tinny and thin doors seemed, and how buzzy they were at highway speeds. Part of the reason people changed is simply that these cars became available, one, and secondly, the "experts" at the magazines drooled over them.
You sound like a GM executive from the 80's and 90's.
I buy domestic vehicles because I prefer to buy domestic vehicles. It's certainly not because they are better. They are not (okay, some are). I've owned one Asian vehicle in my life and have driven many to realize people didn't switch just because they were available. I've owned way to many horrible domestic vehicles.
Most people resist change and usually need a reason to embrace it. And the D3 provided more than enough reasons for customers to leave. That's the same reason GM will have a hard time winning customers back. If you're happy with an Accord or Camry, why switch. I'm odd in that I don't like to buy the same thing twice. I've rarely bought from the same manufacturer back to back.
If you were a full-size GM buyer in the 80's, there was little reason to switch. But if you were unfortunate enough to suffer through a Citation, Corsica, Tempo, Celebrity, K car etc, you generally had more than enough reasons to try something else.
You don't know what buzz is until you drive an '85 ford tempo with a 3 speed auto at 65 mph.
True, young people buy less expensive cars. Around here, it is older used cars. A couple of kids bought my 1988 Park Avenue and I still see it from time to time. Buicks and full-size older domestic cars are popular with Philly youth. If any kid has a new subcompact around here, it's spoiled Biff or princess Buffy whose Mommy and Daddy bought it for them.
I was NEVER in the market for something like a Vega, VW, or any of their foreign or domestic competitors. Driving those dinky little subcompacts would've been more humiliating than peddling a tricycle in the nude and wearing a propeller beanie. They were great cars for your little sister or your spinster aunt, but I and no other guy I knew would've been caught dead in one.
Look at what they were competing against. The comparable domestics looked even worse.
It's all subjective, but I found the CRXs, Celicas, Mr2s, Preludes, and Accords of the late 80's to be decent to good looking cars. The 1987 Civic Si my uncle bought new while in college changed my perception of Honda. I'd never driven a 4cyl that revved so quick and smooth, nor experienced a 5 speed shift linkage so accurate, handling far exceeded ANY comparable domestic at the time. The car was a hoot to drive, got great fuel economy and was reliable. A far cry from the '83 Mustang my aunt had previous that blew its 2.3 4cyl on the way home from the dealer with 20 miles on it due to a casting error from the factory. The CRX was a precision machine compared to that lumbering POC.
It all comes down to what one expects. I love smooth, fast revving engines and manual transmissions along with responsive braking and handling (even when I drove daily in Chicago traffic). The domestics have offered very little in that area. Driving a traditional Buick type of land barge is not appealing to me. My favorite domestic that I've owned was my '98 Ford SVT Contour. I loved that car. Decent clutch and shift action, strong brakes, tight yet compliant suspension and the SVT honed 2.5 DOHC loved to rev. Build quality was typical domestic garbage, but I loved how it drove. If it wasn't for the extended warranty I bought, that car probably would have been more expensive to own than a loaded 3 series.
My grandpa loved his fullsize gm vehicles. So I've put thousands of miles on the likes of an '83 Delta 88, 87 Caprice Classic Brougham LS, '92 Roadmaster, and his last two P/A. I actually liked the Delta and the Caprice, but I didn't like the RM or P/As much.
Maybe if he waited a year and got an Lt1, it would have changed my opinion some, but that TBI 350 felt like a cheap truck engine. The throttle response was slow and it always felt sluggish and it was a gas pig.
You cannot tell me that doors of Japanese cars of the '70's and '80's weren't thin and tinny. If you say 'no', I gotta believe you never sat in one. You can't tell me their fours weren't high-revvers.
The popularity of the small econoboxes was because of "econo"- box.
People looked for higher gas mileage. They turned down lots of options on US brand cars, and options lead to more failures, for cars with little motors, light weight, and manual transmissions with few options to break. A clutch and a fan belt.
I used to give a coworker a ride in the late 70s when his Volkswagen wouldn't run. That was on a regular basis. Guess not much has changed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, maybe but it's a close call....
I don't have much experience with Japanese cars from the '70's to early 80's (i was just a kid then). I had a friend in HS that had an early 80's Accord 5peed hatchback for his first car. He had it for a little while. It was reliable but nothing exceptional, that was a long time ago, so I don't really remember much about it other than seeing 100mph on the speedo when it hit 100k miles, that experience did stand out;)
I didn't start paying attention to the Asian makes until I drove an '86 Maxima and my uncles '87 CRX si. Then parents of a few friends started buying the likes of Camrys and Accord LX-Is. They were leaps and bounds better than the Tempos, Celebrities, Luminas, Cutlass Calias and Taurus's which they replaced.
Yes, many of them were high revvers, but the difference was most of them felt like they could rev all day vs. revving an Iron Duke, Quad 4 or 2.3 Ford etc. which sounded and felt like they were going to self destruct.
A good friend of mine in HS (my BIL today) bought an '84 Fiero with low miles and in exceptional condition in '87. It was a 4 speed manual 4cyl. It redlined at stratospheric 4500 rpm or so. Then add a shift linkage that felt and sounded like dragging a hammer through a bucket of bolts. It was dog slow too. He was/is meticulous with his cars so he kept every record regarding all the repairs and services he had done with it. It filled up a 3 ring binder in the 3 years he had it. It didn't catch on fire, so he must of had one of the good ones.
He now has a Corvette (far from reliable too) to keep nice, but his daily driver is an Acura MDX, go figure. Then add he passed on $4k in GM dollars as he bought Hondas and an Acura. Why, because his Fiero was far from the last pathetic domestic he owned. Blown Taurus head gaskets. One Saturn SC-1 bought back for trans issues and the replacement was nearly as bad. Then an early 2000 era Malibu that yielded very little in terms of satisfaction and he has bought nothing but Hondas and Acuras since.
My point is many of us have left the domestics at one time or another, not because we are lemmings following the crowd, but we've had one or two too many pathetic domestic vehicles.
But that was the past. I'm not married or directly against any particular brand. When I buy again, I will buy what meets my needs/wants for a fair price.
Um, that's probably because you wouldn't? The Prelude was unlike anything in the domestics stable during the eighties, unless maybe for some odd reason someone threw in the Ford EXP or a Dodge Charger... In the late eighties, there was the Ford Probe (which was designed in conjunction with Mazda) or the Dodge Conquest (which was actually a Mitsubushi Starion), but the light, nimble, high revving fun to drive cars were pretty much non-existant in Detroilet because they were still concentrating on what they were good at... large cars.
The D-3 pretty much thought like yourself, "everyone wants big". The "bigger the better", hence the future gluttony of trucks and SUV's not too much later. They thought there was too little profit margins in small cars.
Arrogance and ignorance reigned supreme in Detroilet even worse than it does today (hard to believe)...
For years, he would buy a new Cadillac and he would keep these for quite a few years.
Today, after three "lousy" (his words) new Cadillacs he drives a top of the line Lexus that he has had for five troublefree years.
I love teasing him about that.
" Yeah, I know, I know..."
The initial Probe along with the Conquest/Starion were far from inexpensive too. The late 80's Probe was certainly more expensive than a Mustang. Though they did get it right with the '93 redesign and wonderful Mazda 2.5 v6. GM had nothing like that. My uncle which had the CRX Si traded that in on a '94 probe GT. It was a fun car. My wife also had a '94 Probe SE. It had a relatively good performing 4cyl. It was certainly much better than the thrash box that resided in her '92 Saturn SL2 or in my '95 Neon.
The same friend of mine in college that had a Prelude Si previously had a Mustang, then Starion in HS then he moved on to an Accord Coupe, MR2, then Prelude. Then another friend's dad had one of last years of the Conquest. It was fun to drive, but was far from reliable.
Yes it has. I have a BIL that works for a tool and die shop in Michigan. They supply the us automotive industry. He tells me their business is about 50/50 D3/transplants.
My experience owing domestic vehicles, I employ more mechanics, so I guess I should take solace with every $1k I spend fixing my D3 vehicles, that I'm stimulating the local economy.
We've discussed this before...in a '74, I'll believe the engine failed at 55K, but I simply do not believe the holes you mention in "within three years" in those places. I lived, breathed, ate, slept, and died Chevys then, and I did see Vegas with rust in those places, but not "within three years"--and I lived in the salt capital practically. I think you're remembering the car correctly, but the time frame incorrectly.
As someone else posted, I think years have a way of exaggerating the good and exaggerating the bad.
I didn't exaggerate when I said my aunt's brand new '83 Mustang toasted an engine on her way home from the dealer when she bought it. The block wasn't properly cast and it overheated. She didn't notice anything until smoke started pouring out and it quit, overheating it enough to where they replaced the engine.
An auto in that car would be a major buzz kill. With a manual it was a blast. I know my uncle put 100k plus on his w/o any problems. At the time, the 2.5 DOHC v6 had to be one of the smoothest available. Sweet it was.
I know. Some specific things I remember are "rubber baby buggy bumpers", wheels with no hub caps so it looked like you lost your hubcaps, inside mirror sticking off a post from the ceiling like a '50's car, and antennas going up the "A" pillar and flapping in the wind.
Who is playing catch up?
Regards,
OW
noosesfront seatbelts from back then. My mom had a Nissan with them and she left them unbuckled just so they wouldn't be so annoyingThey don't if they are engineered to do just that. :shades:
Some motorcycles redline at 13,000 RPM!
I share your opinion on the 3.8 GM engines. Great engines!
Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of those 90's Mustangs with the 3" stainless pipes or a 350 Iroc or a modern day Mustang/Challenger (New Camaro sounds like crap, burbling, rough and way too unrefined for a modern powerplant) but the engineering marvel of a high revving engine gets my attention. Even Nascar engines are built to rev, as are those found in the Vette.
I wouldn't disagree with this. They WERE tinnier, on average. And since the engines generally were 4 cyls that revved higher, they WERE buzzier than the high torque D3 engines. But in spite of those things, they also WERE put together better, WERE more agile, and WERE much more reliable. And that's why so many people bolted the D3.
An 18 inch glasspack on one side and a straight pipe on the other!
Go down a hill and downshift to second gear and hear it rap all of the way down the hill.
Cops didn't share my opinion!
As someone else posted, I think years have a way of exaggerating the good and exaggerating the bad.
Yes, we have discussed this before. I rode with him every other day in a carpool to college in that Vega. It was a navy blue metallic '74 GT Hatchback. Nice car, too - I liked its looks. We commuted from 1975-1978, so you do the math. I remember him saying that he would drive it until it became a convertible! By the end of that time period, he said he would never own another GM product. I stand by what I said, I have no reason to lie about it.
GM's world wide sales in 2010 was 8.39 million, a dramatic 12% increase and only trails Toyota's 8.42 million by a thin margin and is expected to regain the world's No. 1 automaker title it lost to Toyota in 2008 this year.
GM to be No. 1 again
Considering you primarily buy GM products, I understand 100%.
In all seriousness, most engines can handle extended high rpm use. Even GM's 90 degree pushrod v6 engines. Though they do sound like they'll break.
Since I've been around boats my whole life and many boat engines are just marinized from auto use (2 strokes and many other outboards excluded). You realize they can handle higher rpm or you don't go very fast.
Interestingly though, Honda's 3.5l 225hp outboard is basically the 3.5 used in the Accord, Odyssey etc. Same block and internals etc. I've been on a center console fishing boat with that engine running for hours at 6000rpm + full throttle. It hardly sounds like it's working. Their reliability is legendary and it's why you usually see a Honda outboard used most often for commercial and government use.
The 305 v8 in my boat is 270hp and runs a max of 5000rpm, but right in the manual it says not to run over 3600 rpm for extended periods to prolong engine life. You'll find no such limitation in a Honda or Yamaha DOHC v6 outboard. Run them full throttle all day and they just keep running. I generally keep mine under 3,600 rpm, because you can just hear and feel the stress it's under over 4,000 rpm (the valve train makes itself known). At 5,000-5,200 rpm it's just painful to listen too for any amount of time, so I keep full throttle top speed runs to a minimum.
But back to cars. Towing also makes you realize how tough a powertrain is. The 5.3 in Suburban would scream for mercy towing my boat or travel trailer up a grade. I've had my foot buried to the floor for miles at a time listening to that engine thrash about. Above 4k rpm for minutes at a time, the sound gets old. But besides coolant temp increases it handled it. Ironically the OHC 5.4 in my Expedition provides far more torque under 4k rpm and I rarely need to rev it past 3600rpm for good pulling power, so it makes pulling up grades far more relaxing.
As for the 3800, I'll just say I much prefer Toyota's 3.0 and or 3.5, GMs own 3.6, Nissan's 3.5 and Ford's 3.5. More power, just as efficient if not more considering how much more power they have, and far more refined.
The Nissan 3.5VQ I had in an 01 Nissan Pathfinder shamed the 3800 in torque output as it was tuned for 265ft-lbs of torque at 3200rpm and it didn't need a hair dryer to do it, yet it could produce 240hp at 6000rpm. That was back in 01.
Sure, the 3800 is punchy, my wife's GP will scoot well enough to about 40, though between it's lack of high rpm power and tall gearing, it feels sluggish at hwy speeds. But yes, it's been perfectly reliable, but completely generic.
On the rare occasion I see a Ferrari on the road, my window is immediately rolled down. The sound of a Ferrari sends chills down my spine. Symphonic.
At the same time, I love the sound of big blocks and well tuned small blocks too. A boating buddy has a 19' Baja with a 454 with open exhaust. The deep throb at idle will vibrate your fillings;) Wonderful..
I agree about the Vega being a good looking car. Although I felt the post '74 look was better - I liked the sloped "slit grille" over the more traditional grille of the earlier models.
My friend's GT was a 4 speed manual; it was my understanding that the standard models got a 3 speed manual instead.
We agree on a lot of things...but...Do you really consider a black four door 1964 Chevrolet Biscayne to be "rather attractive"?
Of course if you like Roadmasters....
I think the outside mirrors and taillights were too tiny on the '71-73 models. My grandparents bought the very first Vega our dealer got in--a dark green '71 sedan, 3-speed, one barrel, AM radio and white stripe tires. That's it. Rubber on the floor. What a cheapie! In '77, with 3,100 miles, Grandpa quit driving and sold the car to my aunt. It took her husband three fuel filters to get it the 50 miles home!
The Caprice Classic Brougham LS was my favorite. For whatever reason, it just stood out to me and i liked it. It was white with tinted windows (Florida), and it just had a presence to it.
The RM was just to soft and had a bloated look I never cared for. Ironically I do find some of the RM wagons appealing. The Vista roof might have made for a popcorn popper in the sun, but it looked interesting.
Yeah, that was pretty neat. IIRC, the boat was a Donzi with twin supercharged big blocks and open exhaust;) I know a few people with boats like that and when they head down the lake it sounds like thunder. Very cool. But running a supercharged BB like that usually means repower/rebuilds are routine.
When I was a little kid, the people across the street had a wagon among their other cooler cars (RX-7 that I was in love with and a neat Blazer with a removable top)...I remember the Vega broke down on them a lot, once with my mother and the mother of their family in the car some distance from home.
Aston Martin DBS
The new Maserati Coupe' and Audi R8 V10 are right there as well... :shades:
I had a neighbor which owned an Rx-7. It had heated Recaro seats, BBS wheels and I always drooled over it. My other neighbor had a 280Z that was cool too. An older friend of mine who lived down the street from me bought a '71 or so 240z that was really sweet. Unfortunately it met an unfortunate demise by a drunk hitting it while parked in front of his parents house. I almost cried...
My brother had an '87 RX-7 that he picked up cheap (from a friend of mine who bought it at an auction) with low miles when he was in college in the mid to late 90's. Very fun and reliable car. Gas pig, but I have a soft spot for rotary engines. It too ended up being totaled sitting in front of my parents house (I guess it was dangerous to be out in the middle of the nigh in that otherwise quiet subdivision, drunk husbands driving home late can be dangerous). But he got lucky that he drove it for a year and his insurance company gave him $1k more than he paid for it.