However, I bet the people who read Fortune are the kind who invest money in stocks and they would not like to see their magazine recommend something that would devalue their portfolio.
My only point here is that over the long run, a BK could be an optimal move for GM because it would allow it to get rid of some obligations, change out the management and implement a successful recovery plan. It's not a worst-case scenario by any means for the company, although it would hurt its creditors, many of its employees (both labor and management) and the current lot of stockholders.
A BK coupled with a good product revamp and positioning strategy would be a positive signal to Wall Street...but the company will need a stronger product lineup to accompany such a move if it is to impress the analysts.
Thank-You imidazol97 for doing the ground work that Mr. Dobbs was talking about.
We might not agree on all subjects pal, but you sure sometimes know how to find the facts on certain subjects and have proven me wrong in the past. I can respect that !!!!
Thanx, for proving this manipulation not a theory but rather a real FACT that some don't want to admit too.
That is the same thing Lou Dobbs said. I couldn't remember the exact percentage. The 30% is exactly what I remember he said about the Japanese under valuing their currency. The chinese are doing the exact thing.
Actually the CEO makes 20% more than the guy underneath him. My Aunt used to sell Forklifts under the Toyota brand and told me this a few years back. The bottom line is they don't take more than their fair share of the wealth from the company for the overall good of the company and it's future.
I can't tell you how glad I was to find the links to past statements about the problem. Now I just have to remember that Japan and China are two different countries--that are doing the same thing.
Well their is a big difference between the 2 country's. I'd personally would much rather support a Japanses company vs. Communist child-labor China.
However I'm going to support my country's buisness's first and foremost, especially when it's made in America such as a GM car built in Lansing or Detriot.
I meant to point out that they both have currency undervalued by about 30% at the time that publicity hit the fan. That's how they are similar. People know they are two different countries!!!
What they are valued at now I don't know; I doubt it's improved much especially with government here wanting to keep the masses eating cheap cake at Walmart with lower prices on all imports, including cars, so people feel better about the economy which should have been cooled years ago with higher interest rates.
I meant to point out that they both have currency undervalued by about 30% at the time that publicity hit the fan. That's how they are similar. People know they are two different countries!!!
Is this a statement of fact or opinion?
The reason I ask is ... for 10 years the yen hasnt changed one bit vs the US$ It has fluctuated but it has not changed significantly.
Do you understand what undervalued means? On what basis of fact do you believe the yen to be undervalued. I know specifically why it is not, but I would like to see your data and hear your side. I might learn something new.
We are not talking about China at all just the Japanese yen vs the Dollar. Did you miss the point that the US$ is also manipulated vs the Euro? Another discussion tho.
And seriously I cant believe you brought up the subject of WalMart again. In trying to bring this discussion to a higher level you're bending to the 'screamers'. Please explain 'What is it with WalMart?' I have no idea what you are talking about. Never been in the place, dont know anyone who works there, nothing. And I cant imagine what it has to do with autos. Help me.
I never braught up Walmart anywhere , and you have the wrong poster.
imidazol97, proved to you that the Japanese and Chinese have been "manipulating their currency". The autoworkers have called it "undercutting" for years. So I am assuming you think Lou Dobbs, and imidazol97, are wrong and are presenting faulty information even though their is common support by several buisness media outlets, economist, etc. I'm not sure exactly where your getting your false information pal, but the sources I've read speak strongly against what you call as facts.
The subject of us manipulating the currency vs. the Euro ????? #1 Well that's not taking jobs from my country is it. #2 Remember the Europeans TARIFF(oh no the evil word of free trade :surprise: ) OUR exports and if we did manipulate our currency it would be the only way to sell a export in their country.
imidazol97, proved to you that the Japanese and Chinese have been "manipulating their currency".
That poster did no such thing, nor did anyone else on this thread.
Please, folks, do us a favor and read the summation above from the Federal Reserve, and you will see that ALL countries with floating currencies attempt to manage their values, and that none of them has the power to manipulate anything. If anyone could manipulate currency values, it would be the US -- you know, the country with the largest economy in the world -- and even the United States is unable to do that.
Do you even have the first clue about what affects exchange rates? It's obvious from your comments that you don't know anything about it, and would believe the first politician or TV commentator who tells you what you want to hear, even if the evidence is shoddy and thin.
Please, folks, do us a favor and read the summation above from the Federal Reserve, and you will see that ALL countries with floating currencies attempt to manage their values, and that none of them has the power to manipulate anything. If anyone could manipulate currency values, it would be the US -- you know, the country with the largest economy in the world -- and even the United States is unable to do that.
Do you even have the first clue about what affects exchange rates? It's obvious from your comments that you don't know anything about it, and would believe the first politician or TV commentator who tells you what you want to hear, even if the evidence is shoddy and thin.
Exactly what I'd say about your BELIEF in the Federal Reserve and it's honesty. :P I personaly work for our government and it stretches the truth on what it tells the public. Something you should keep in mind. However if your belief is unwavering then I guess you can contiunue to be mislead. :surprise: <---Not at all
My question specifically was to imidazol97 see Post#1197 asking for specific facts substantiating his statement. He didnt provide any facts at all before so nothing was 'proven', but I'm open to seeing some and possibly changing my mind if they are real facts.
My comments about WalMart were also in reply to his post also.. not yours.
Rocky, rather than dwelling on another conspiracy theory, explain to us how a country would "manipulate" the value of its currency.
Since you know so much about it, you should be able to explain it. Repeating the word "manipulation" all day long doesn't explain how it would be done, or why the US, the largest economy on the planet, would be unable to do anything about it.
Just so you know .. a television commentator reads something put in front of him that was written by a college intern. It doesnt have to mean anything it just has to grab your attention for a split second. Just as you say things over and over doesnt make them facts, Lou Dobbs or a writer in an OpEd piece saying something doesnt make it a fact.
Now if you have a series of verifiable facts presented by say GM or Ford or the Fed, these we can discuss.
Saying the same thing over and over again doesnt advance the discussion. Bring some facts. Explain how market manipulation works.
Japan, Korea and Taiwan, which represented about $100 billion of the U.S. trade deficit last year, have practiced widespread currency interventions multiple times in 2001 and again in 2002. China, which represented another $100 billion of our trade deficit in 2002, has an artificially low fixed exchange rate that boosts its manufactured exports and retards imports. All told, these four countries account for almost half of the U.S. trade deficit. While other currencies such as the euro have strengthened against the dollar, these four governments have purchased hundreds of billions of dollars in order to keep their currencies undervalued against the dollar.
Japan – Last year, the Japanese government intervened in currency markets to weaken the yen seven times, spending a record 4 trillion yen ($33 billion) to keep the dollar above Y115, intervening as high as Y123. This followed a similar level of intervention in 2001, when they spent a then-record total of $28 billion to weaken their currency. Threats of action (de facto verbal intervention) by high-ranking Japanese financial officials have dominated currency markets for the past five weeks. In January 2003, for example, the Japanese Finance Minister roiled currency markets by indicating his belief that the proper level of the yen to the dollar was in the 150-160 range _ causing the largest single-day decline in the yen/dollar relationship in years. The constant drumbeat of intervention threats by Japanese financial officials prevent the world currency markets from operating freely based on economic reality and distort fundamental trading relationships.
China – Despite the most rapid economic growth in the world, enormous trade surpluses and huge foreign investment inflows - -each of which normally causes a currency to appreciate - - China has used government controls to keep its currency pegged at 8.2 yuan to the dollar since 1994. In 1994, China devalued the yuan by over 40%, helping to set the stage for the East Asian financial crisis of 1997.
In order to maintain an undervalued currency, China has amassed reserves second only to Japan’s, totaling over $250 billion during the past five years. As a result, China’s exports to the United States, which consist primarily of manufactured goods, have doubled over the past five years and now exceed $110 billion a year. Artificially low-priced Chinese exports have affected virtually every sector of the U.S. manufacturing economy. Pressures from China’s currency are affecting not just the United States, but also Mexico, Japan and other Asian countries as they seek to cope with China’s artificially low prices for manufactured goods.
Taiwan and Korea – Taiwan and Korea are also rapidly buying dollars, restricting upward movement of their currencies. Together, these two economies have increased their reserves $75 billion in the last two years – a huge amount, given their trade volumes.
Impact of an Overvalued Dollar on US Foundries
These deliberate policies of currency interventions have added enormously to the U.S. trade deficit by spurring their exports and restricting their imports. The U.S. manufacturing sector in the meantime has borne the brunt of job losses and economic contraction over the last two years, and has lost over two million jobs.
More than one in every ten American factory jobs has disappeared in the last two years. Much of this is directly attributable to export losses and to artificially low priced imports from countries that prevent market forces from determining exchange rates. The U.S. dollar has been allowed to get 30 percent more expensive in terms of other major currencies over the past four years. Since foreign currencies are 30 percent cheaper, this makes many import prices so artificially low that competing against them is almost impossible.
According to the United Auto Workers union, a recent analysis reported that the 30 percent weakening of the yen has given Japanese companies an average price advantage of as much as $3,725 for a vehicle costing $20,000.
That's about as much fact as you gave me in the theory of it not happening.
Rocky, you forgot to tell us that your "source" is a US trade lobby that is trying to erect trade barriers to protect US businesses.
Surely, you can't believe that they would be an objective source of information? It would be a bit like going to a tobacco lobbyist in order to "prove" that cigarettes are good for you...
Copenhagen is good for you though. It gets rid of worms. :P I tell my wife that after I'm done eating. "Time for a dip, I don't want any of those worms"
General Motors accuses Japan of currency manipulation
The company charged that Japans weak yen policy gave its exporters an outright annual subsidy of up to 12,000 dollars per vehicle exported to the United States, giving an expected windfall of two billion dollars to Japans automakers.
[an error occurred while processing this directive] "This subsidy has both facilitated the expansion of Japanese companies in the US and succeeded in keeping American-built automobiles out of Japan," General Motors chief economist Mustafa Mohatarem told a Congressional hearing.
The impact of Japans sustained currency manipulation is a key reason for a plethora of problems facing US-owned auto manufacturers, Mohatarem told a US-Japan trade hearing held by the House of Representatives' Committee on Ways and Means.
"However, it is frustrating, really unbelievable, to many of us in this business and the American manufacturing sector that the Japanese governments extraordinary 420 billion dollar currency manipulation program has gone unquestioned and unchallenged, while China has become the sole focus of attention as the threat to American competitiveness," he said.
Lawmakers criticized the government for not being tough with Japan on its currency policy and sought an explanation from David Loevinger, deputy assistant secretary at the US Treasury, among government officials at the hearing.
"We hear the message" Loevinger said.
The Bush administration has discussed foreign exchange market issues with Tokyo officials and "we will continue to strongly express our views that major economies should have flexible exchange rates, determined in the market with intervention kept to a minimum," he said.
Japanese authorities have not intervened in the foreign exchange market since March 2004, Loevinger said.
Despite strong sales, Mohatarem said US auto manufacturers and suppliers were struggling to turn profits, auto workers had been laid off, credit ratings for auto companies had been downgraded and many suppliers were faced with bankruptcy.
On the other hand, he said Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Subaru, and Japans other auto companies announced last week that they earned nearly one billion dollars in unanticipated windfall profits in the first half of fiscal year 2005.
"These were due exclusively to the artificial weakness of the yen," he said, adding that much of that profit increase came as a result of sales in the United States.
Mohatarem said the Congress and the Bush administration should make clear it would make full use of US and international trade laws to discipline unfair currency manipulation.
Last year, the US-Japan bilateral automotive trade deficit reached 44.2 billion dollars, making it the largest sectoral trade deficit the United States maintains with any country.
Also in 2004, automotive trade represented over two-thirds of the total US-Japan deficit.
Mohatarem said the yen dropped to the current level of 111 to the dollar from 105 in early 2005 "due in part to ongoing "jawboning" and verbal intervention by high-ranking Japanese officials.
He cited 90 to 100 yen per dollar as "the commonly accepted range."
Ironic -- you don't like GM management, but when they pass the buck to the Japanese automakers for their misfortunes, you eat it up.
This is why GM management is in trouble -- because everybody else is always to blame...except for GM management. Did fluctuating values of the yen have anything to do with the design of the second-rate Cobalt?
By the way, you still haven't explained how the currency is being "manipulated", or how what Japan does it is any different from what other western nations such as the US do when they wish themselves to create short-term fluctuations.
A process by which foreign central banks buy and hold large amounts of U.S. dollars to keep their exchange rates below market levels. The objective is to make their exports cheaper. Such currency manipulation is contrary to the provisions of both the International Monetary Fund and the World Trade Organization, and is a major factor behind the burgeoning U.S. trade deficit.
Examples:
Japan bought an incredible $42.8 billion of U.S. dollars in May 2003 in the most massive intervention ever in foreign exchange markets in order to prevent the yen from rising in value against the dollar. The move is testimony to how strongly market forces are saying the yen in undervalued and the dollar overvalued against it. Japan’s foreign currency reserves are now $523.8 billion – close to one-quarter of all the world’s currency reserves.
Korea and Taiwan also added significantly to their reserves in May. Each bought more than 4.5 billion U.S. dollars. Korea’s reserves now stand at $128 billion and Taiwan’s at $175 billion – huge amounts for economies of their size. In the last 12 months these two economies have increased their dollar holdings by $54 billion to keep markets from appreciating their currencies against the dollar and to maintain a trade advantage over U.S. producers.
China has also been one of the largest purchasers of U.S. dollars, in order to keep its yuan dramatically undervalued. Data are only available through March 2003, but in that month China added $7.8 billion to its currency reserves, bringing them to $316 billion – second only to Japan’s. In the last 12 months, China has purchased $88 billion of U.S. dollars – an amount nearly equivalent to the U.S. trade deficit with China during that time.
“Together, the “Big Four” Asian countries have accumulated over $1 trillion of reserves to keep their currencies low. (That figure is a 2003 stat)
Rocky, you keep quoting trade lobbyists that want trade barriers.
You obviously don't know much about FX, but you're not going to learn it from them. Here are a few basic facts:
-Practically every nation on earth holds dollars in reserve. They hold dollars because it is the world's strongest currency, and the closest thing we have today to a gold standard. They aren't doing it to destroy the US, but to stabilize their own economies.
-Exporting nations such as Japan and China hold dollars as a result of selling exports. They take many of these dollars to purchase US treasury bonds, which we use to support our trade deficit. If the US economy wasn't so attractive that we could sell our bonds, we would be in fairly big trouble.
-The US wants a trade deficit, because low-cost imports keep the inflation rate low. The alternative would be to have more expensive products, higher interest rates and (in theory) less economic growth. In contrast, the US has consistently strong GDP growth, usually outpacing Japan and western Europe.
I realize that you gain comfort from your conspiracy theories, but you're missing the boat on Econ 101. Learn about how for ex works, and you'll be embarrassed that you fell for the incomplete half-truths of some DC trade lobby.
The title here says it all... it's an editorial, an opinion, not a fact. I am willing to be convinced but show me exactly where the 30% undervaluation exists because I can show you from real-world daat where it does not exist. But I'm open to learning.
This thread says the US is trying to destroy the value of the Yen through market manipulation.. What goes? Huh? I thought you had it the other way around.
-Practically every nation on earth holds dollars in reserve. They hold dollars because it is the world's strongest currency, and the closest thing we have today to a gold standard. They aren't doing it to destroy the US, but to stabilize their own economies.
-Yeah until the Big 4 asian country's and Russia dump are currency simutaniously to send us into a 29' depression. Remember all 5 are the biggest buyers of Gold and are doing so with a big portion of their income.
Exporting nations such as Japan and China hold dollars as a result of selling exports. They take many of these dollars to purchase US treasury bonds, which we use to support our trade deficit. If the US economy wasn't so attractive that we could sell our bonds, we would be in fairly big trouble.
-What's attractive about a 5.14% interest rate ???? Yes in a very short time some economist are betting on 8-9% for a 30 yr. U.S. treasury bond, some have said as high as 15% if Bush keeps his uncontrolled spending habits. The asians could right now get a better return in Vegas.
-The US wants a trade deficit, because low-cost imports keep the inflation rate low. The alternative would be to have more expensive products, higher interest rates and (in theory) less economic growth. In contrast, the US has consistently strong GDP growth, usually outpacing Japan and western Europe.
Exactly what it is a "right-wing theory" that Reagan had. Having a trade deficit with a foreign country and millions of exported jobs is not good for the U.S. like many of you believe. I get this same opinion from the Bush defenders that need to retake econ 101. It's funny how the liberals when they ran congress used to get slammed for having deficit. Now they are saying it's ok and good for us :confuse: Come-on !!!!!!!!!
I realize that you gain comfort from your conspiracy theories, but you're missing the boat on Econ 101. Learn about how for ex works, and you'll be embarrassed that you fell for the incomplete half-truths of some DC trade lobby.
I guess your part of the "lock step" crowd of this administration. Clinton paid down the deficit and had a strong Dollar and we had some of the best economic times in this country's history. I'm no means a die hard Clinton lover because he didn't fight against NAFTA. However his balancing of the budget gave prosperity to millions of americans and I'd take the times of yesterday over the hard times we have today.
You have proven nothing in facts that the Asians aren't manipulating their currency. Getting a right wing opinion straight from a Bush Administration official in our government by no means is a fact. At this momment I will trust the news reporting of a Broadcast journalist like Mr. Dobbs over anything a right wing federal reservist says. I guess we agree to disagree guys.
What ????? I was complaining about the Japanese undervaluing the Yen. The Yen is worth more than the Japanese are claiming. The Dollar is stronger than the yen, but not an additional 30% more is what they are essentially saying. Yes piling up debt will drop the dollar, but if the Japanese continue find ways to hide/manipulate their "true value" of the yen they will continue to have an unfair trade advantage with the U.S. The UAW claims a $3700+ advantage on building a $20K vehicle and that was from 2003.
You seem to have missed the news that the dollar has been largely in a devaluation trend since not long after the Bush administration took office. And despite your conspiracy theories, it's the result of investor concerns about the growing budget deficit caused by the Iraq war, high oil presses and the 2001 recession. Currency values come from the free market betting on the direction of the economy, not the Yellow Peril scheming to destroy you.
The UAW claims a $3700+ advantage on building a $20K vehicle and that was from 2003.
I'd love to see where this "fact" comes from. I look at Edmunds, and I see that a Cobalt is cheaper than a US-built Corolla or Civic. Would a weaker dollar make the Cobalt a better car to drive.
Well as you've seen the Civic in many peoples eyes is a better car and yes it costs more. Hell it probably is a better car. If GM did make a Cobalt that was equal to the Civic, in price and overall quality, the Civic would still have a $4K+ profit advantage if sold at the same price. Factor in wages, benefits, and cost of operations where the Japanese have free taxes, and more modern facilities GM is spending much more $$$$$$ to build a equal vehicle and will net less profit. Basically GM and the other Big 2 are at unfair advantages when building cars here in the U.S. The Japanese can stick their profits in R&D and in the bank, compared to GM hoping to just make enough to break even. I guess the only solution is to let the Big 3 die ????? It's either the government steps in and helps fix the problems that they face or they will continue to die off if they stay in the U.S. which in essence will cause alot of economic hardships when retirees are forced back into the workforce or go on welfare
What is the solution ????? Simpily just saying build better cars (which cost alot more) isn't the FIX IT ALLsolution when the Japanese will under cut them anyways. Not to mention people like you wouldn't give them the time of day because your import loyalist.
Well as you've seen the Civic in many peoples eyes is a better car and yes it costs more. Hell it probably is a better car.
It is undoubtedly a better car. Quality and customer satisfaction surveys prove it time and again, and the residuals reflect those. Plus, Honda doesn't need to dump cars into the rental and fleet markets in order to move inventory and artificially inflate perceived demand.
The Japanese can stick their profits in R&D and in the bank, compared to GM hoping to just make enough to break even.
I've already shown on this thread that GM and Toyota spend roughly equal amounts on R&D. Perhaps GM's money would be better spent if it didn't try to spread that money over too many nameplates.
Basically GM and the other Big 2 are at unfair advantages when building cars here in the U.S.
GM got the same financial incentives to build the Saturn plant in Tennessee that Nissan did -- none. (Those are illegal in TN.) But Saturn was offered plenty of incentives by other states eager to take them.
GM might be offered still more if they'd build the plants in the US, instead of in China. But nobody in Wisconsin or North Carolina is going to offer free money to Ford for building its Fusion plant in Hermosillo, a plant that is scheduled to run triple shifts while Ford lays off workers in their US plants.
I guess the only solution is to let the Big 3 die ?????
Chrysler is now a subsidiary of Daimler, based in Stuttgart, so only two remain. And neither of the other two needs to die if they would make cars that people want. When people wanted SUV's, they did well; now that they don't, GM and Ford will need to shift gears, become competitive or be left behind. That's what free enterprise is all about, let's hope that they don't blow it.
Again, some perspective from Tokyo. Both Japan and China are upto their gills in US treasuries. Economists here (in Japan) are starting to question why Japan needs to keep on buying more USD (the currency manipulation Rocky you refer to requires buying and owning USD....), since a devaluation of the USD will create a huge loss for Bank of Japan.
One theory gaining ground these days is that Japan continues to buy USD because it is also being asked to do so by the US Govt, since if Japan and China stop buying USD, interest rates in the US would shoot up (otherwise how is US going to fund its 2Bn USD a day deficit?), causing a meltdown in the housing market, which would then seriously impact consumer demand. This theory has some credibility because of the striking silence of US Govt despite huge surplus being registered by Japan and China.
So it is not that easy - US Govt cannot simply say "Ok you guys, stop buying USD from today". For the Govt, sustaining the housing market today is 1000x more important than saving some Auto Industry jobs.
Rocky, The constant shifting of demands for proof by others and twisting of what is said and constant picking of a trivial detail about which to argue has made this a circular discussion. You would probably like the Internet Salesman discussion if you have time to read through it callmedrfill, "Make Me a Better (Online) Car Salesman!" #1, 13 Feb 2006 6:54 pm and see the same techniques.
This discussion has gone nowhere other than as an example for debate classes. I keep expecting it to be shut down like Repeal Speed limits was.
There is no convincing if the others like being able to change the topic and make arguement rather than discussion. It surely turns off anyone reading the discussion who might join in when they sense the angst.
The only part I can comment on from an earlier post is that Clinton lowered the deficit. Many things were moved off the records that actually are part of the deficit. It was like saying your house payment isn't part of your debt just because you'd like to do your accounting that way before you report the current rockylee national debt. I don't know if those errors have been corrected by the current administration; I do know they are spending us to oblivion and doing whatever looks good at the moment for the economy (like the previous). That would include allowing the undervalued currencies of Japan and China because they keep US consumers happier buying from Walmart source companies they forced to move to China to be able to get cheaper goods for their store and they keep the interest rate lower especially for the housing market. If everything slows down the economy will show that it's tanked and people won't revote the same type administration into office again. After all, it's getting re-elected that is important, not running the country well. But that's another topic.
And that's my opinion, so please don't someone demand a proof item...
Imidazol97, rather than try to create some sort of grudge match, provide a legitimate source not from an American metal trade lobbyist that shows that Japan does anything different to manage the yen from what the US does to manage the dollar.
Why would you describe it to be manipulation when Japan trades dollars and treasury bills, but it's A-OK when the US does it? Why do you hold the US to a different standard than another western country?
Let's stick to the topics and keep things centered on the cars folks. I KNOW that it easy for side issues to come up and go off on a tangent, but this is getting to be a habit among this group.
You keep trying to "prove" something to someone who is obviously not going to change their position. Then you start in with "my sources are better than yours", and finally we devolve into "you don't understand/know how to read", etc.
It funny how people on this thread are coming up with all sorts of reasons why GM and Ford are loosing market share and are laying off workers. Yes we can blame the Japanese for currency manipulation. Yes we can blame the states for giving land and taxes away so Japanese can build factories, but the real reason for market share decline is the crap cars that GM and Ford build.
I just came back from a trip to Indiana where I had the pleasure to rent a Pontiac Grand Prix. It was a brand new car, but it felt like it was 10 yeas old. I hated every thing about this car. The seating position was all wrong, the seat was too low to the ground. The car was big on the outside, small on the inside. The car looked cheap on the inside with low grade plastic and cheap radio. The climate control had buttons that were so small that they were impossible to turn with glove. (It was very cold there last week.) This car did not even have an outside temperature gage. Driving on the freeway was not as quite as it should have been because of the 4-speed transmission. When the car downsifted it went from 2K RPM to 3K RPM because of the lack of the 2nd overdrive gear. Just every thing about this car said 1995 not 2006.
The point is that GM simply builds very bad and outdated cars. It has nothing to do with currency manipulations, it has every thing to do with the product. In stead of GM building one good W-Body car, they build 3 mediocre ones like Grand Prix, Impala and LaCrosse. These 3 cars attract the same type of people, if I don't like Grand Prix, I will also not like the Impala. The point is that they spend the money to compete with them selfs. Instead of GM competing with Toyota, we have Pontiac competing with Chevy.
Build decent cars and maybe people will buy them. GM SUVs are very nice. I looked at the 2007 Tahoe and I liked what I saw. Its the GM cars that suck........
I just came back from a trip to Indiana where I had the pleasure to rent a Pontiac Grand Prix. It was a brand new car, but it felt like it was 10 yeas old.
I really do wonder how many are turned off to American cars because of the rental experience. The Big 2.5 have really blown it by using their rental fleet sales as a dumping ground, rather than a showcase to show off their cars. There aren't too many people I know who spend a lot of time doing business travel who would willingly buy an American-made mid-sized sedan.
Basically GM and the other Big 2 are at unfair advantages when building cars here in the U.S. The Japanese can stick their profits in R&D and in the bank, compared to GM hoping to just make enough to break even. I guess the only solution is to let the Big 3 die ?????
BTW.. there is no Big 3. That's a German company that owns the #4 producer.
Basically GM and the other Big 2 are at unfair advantages when building cars here in the U.S. ( they made their bed now they have to sleep in it ). The Japanese can stick their profits in R&D and in the bank, compared to GM hoping to just make enough to break even. (because they have to pay Jobs Bank and Healthcare for 1.1 Million people, this is true ). I guess the only solution is to let the Big 3 die ????? ( They wont die they will restructure and cut away the deadwood and be a lot stronger in the future ).
I can understand your other complaints, but... what I mean is...does this even..."an outside temperature gage"? Um, so?
I mean all of my cars can show the temperature outside the car. Even my cheap Ford Expedition XLT can display the outside temperature on the gage cluster. Its important to know outside temperature in the winter because if its around 32, you don't know if the road will freeze or not. This is not an option, its standard on most cars. I know that all Hondas have this feature.
My point was that its hard to blame Japanese currency manipulations for GMs failure to build decent cars. I think GM has nobody to blame for its lack of attention and lack of investment in cars but it self. Why can a company build good SUV and truck, but not a decent passenger car? But what do we expect, Pontiac Grand Prix is almost the same car which was introduced in 1988.
Don't you think that 18 years is a long time to produce a car with only moderate changes? The same thing happened to Ford Taurus. It was a great car for its time, but complete lack of investment lead to Ford Taurus being a rental car and nothing more. I mean who would buy Ford Taurus or Pontiac Grand Prix as a personnel car?
My point was that its hard to blame Japanese currency manipulations for GMs failure to build decent cars. I think GM has nobody to blame for its lack of attention and lack of investment in cars but it self. Why can a company build good SUV and truck, but not a decent passenger car? But what do we expect, Pontiac Grand Prix is almost the same car which was introduced in 1988.
This is a good question and one that is not often asked.
In my opinion.. no facts .. Back in the late 80's when GM agreed with the UAW on peace for the next 20 yrs they took a long hard look at their product mix and decided that low-priced, low-margin autos were not able to support the Jobs Bank program and health insurance for retirees. The only vehicles that generated that much profit were Caddy's, trucks and SUV's. Thus all their development went into these areas and they have done very very well in all three.
Auto's were literally poor stepchildren. So they gave up on them and allowed Toyota and Honda to have this entire market. No profit no interest. This was GM's conscious decision which I'd wager that they got the agreement of the US Govt and Toyota and Honda before they put it in place. In fact while GM has shrunk in the last 20 yrs the entire NA auto industry is booming and has grown nearly 40%. GM simply decided to give away the auto part, their costs couldn't support it.
The auto's that they did produce, as many have noted here, are destined to go into fleets thus are cheaply made and cheaply sold. There is no interest to produce a highquality midsized auto if in 9 months it will be a 'used car' when the fleet is done with it.
At the same time they also made the desicion to move their auto operations out of the US to Mexico, Australia, China, Europe, etc.
In the nearterm GM in N America will be mainly a truck maker with one high quality auto brand, Cadillac. These all generate good profits and are healthy and vibrant.
It's cold-hearted on GM's part but it's just business, emphasize what makes you the most money and shrink the rest.
Kudos for an excellent analysis. An implication about one cogent point:
Back in the late 80's when GM agreed with the UAW on peace for the next 20 yrs they took a long hard look at their product mix and decided that low-priced, low-margin autos were not able to support the Jobs Bank program and health insurance for retirees.
Aside from faulting the union specifically, I'd wholeheartedly buy that analysis.
But to add to that, the obsession on margin and efficiency led to a dismissal of most regular passenger car segments, and an excessive effort to badge engineer and indulge in an acquisition spree, rather than focus on conquering market share and fighting off rivals in primary segments such as small- and mid-sized sedans.
GM seemed to fail to realize that Toyota, Honda, and others would not only use the small and mid-sized segments not just to earn profits, but also to build credibility and create opportunities for progressive marketing in other segments...ironically, which is exactly what Sloan had done with the GM of old vis-a-vis Chevrolet. Funny for GM to miss a variation on the strategy that they themselves had used to become the world's largest car maker.
Yes, I am a Japanese citizen. And I studied in London. But addressing your surprise about how (or why) I know so much about the housing market. Two reasons : 1) Because for the last three years this market has been driving US consumption, and thus indirectly the world economy (so all of us had better watch out when this tanks); 2) US is the largest Economy in the world, and the second largest trading partner for Japan (China has now become No. 1) - So we need to know what makes it tick.
Now if US spent equivalent amount of time studying international geopolitical issues (instead of TV shows like The Apprentice), you wouldnt be in Iraq
Yes, I am a Japanese citizen. And I studied in London. But addressing your surprise about how (or why) I know so much about the housing market. Two reasons : 1) Because for the last three years this market has been driving US consumption, and thus indirectly the world economy (so all of us had better watch out when this tanks); 2) US is the largest Economy in the world, and the second largest trading partner for Japan (China has now become No. 1) - So we need to know what makes it tick.
Now if US spent equivalent amount of time studying international geopolitical issues (instead of TV shows like The Apprentice), you wouldnt be in Iraq
We're in Iraq because we want to be there professor. We loved smacking around fascists like the Nipponese and the [non-permissible content removed] in the past, and we love smacking around the fascist Mohammedans today. I've served two tours in Iraq so far, and we don't have a shortage of people who want to re-enlist. There are some problems with recruiting because the average citizen is so misinformed about what is going on in Iraq. This misinformation is due to exposure to media coverage of world affairs, not a lack of it. Also, there are Japanese troops in Iraq. You are probably a typical Japanese xenophobe, and therefore have an innate sympathy for the xenophobic Salafists.
After reading several hundred postings about buying American cars, allow me to digress. Lee Iacocca, in an article by Fortune Magazine in the eighties, had this to say. The Dodge Stealth and the Mitsubishi were made on the same assembly line, used all the same parts, and were pretty much identical twins except for the chrome and badging. Mr Iacocca further stated that the rate of complaints against the Dodge was much higher than the Mitsubishi. He was shaking his head and said "the bias Americans have against American made products was real and we had to not only make better cars but have to change the perception Americans have of our cars"....The Consumers Guide April 2005 wrote that based on the number of complaints for the first year, the best car made in North America for the year 2004 was.., are you holding on? The 2004 Mustang. How many of you knew that little known fact?
Comments
My only point here is that over the long run, a BK could be an optimal move for GM because it would allow it to get rid of some obligations, change out the management and implement a successful recovery plan. It's not a worst-case scenario by any means for the company, although it would hurt its creditors, many of its employees (both labor and management) and the current lot of stockholders.
A BK coupled with a good product revamp and positioning strategy would be a positive signal to Wall Street...but the company will need a stronger product lineup to accompany such a move if it is to impress the analysts.
We might not agree on all subjects pal, but you sure sometimes know how to find the facts on certain subjects and have proven me wrong in the past. I can respect that !!!!
Thanx, for proving this manipulation not a theory but rather a real FACT that some don't want to admit too.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
However I'm going to support my country's buisness's first and foremost, especially when it's made in America such as a GM car built in Lansing or Detriot.
Rocky
What they are valued at now I don't know; I doubt it's improved much especially with government here wanting to keep the masses eating cheap cake at Walmart with lower prices on all imports, including cars, so people feel better about the economy which should have been cooled years ago with higher interest rates.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
Nothing was proven.. it was opinions.. not facts. Huge difference.
But you are entitled to hold on to your misconceptions.
Is this a statement of fact or opinion?
The reason I ask is ... for 10 years the yen hasnt changed one bit vs the US$ It has fluctuated but it has not changed significantly.
Do you understand what undervalued means? On what basis of fact do you believe the yen to be undervalued. I know specifically why it is not, but I would like to see your data and hear your side. I might learn something new.
We are not talking about China at all just the Japanese yen vs the Dollar. Did you miss the point that the US$ is also manipulated vs the Euro? Another discussion tho.
And seriously I cant believe you brought up the subject of WalMart again. In trying to bring this discussion to a higher level you're bending to the 'screamers'. Please explain 'What is it with WalMart?' I have no idea what you are talking about. Never been in the place, dont know anyone who works there, nothing. And I cant imagine what it has to do with autos. Help me.
imidazol97, proved to you that the Japanese and Chinese have been "manipulating their currency". The autoworkers have called it "undercutting" for years. So I am assuming you think Lou Dobbs, and imidazol97, are wrong and are presenting faulty information even though their is common support by several buisness media outlets, economist, etc. I'm not sure exactly where your getting your false information pal, but the sources I've read speak strongly against what you call as facts.
The subject of us manipulating the currency vs. the Euro ????? #1 Well that's not taking jobs from my country is it.
TARIFF(oh no the evil word of free trade :surprise: ) OUR exports and if we did manipulate our currency it would be the only way to sell a export in their country.
Rocky
That poster did no such thing, nor did anyone else on this thread.
Please, folks, do us a favor and read the summation above from the Federal Reserve, and you will see that ALL countries with floating currencies attempt to manage their values, and that none of them has the power to manipulate anything. If anyone could manipulate currency values, it would be the US -- you know, the country with the largest economy in the world -- and even the United States is unable to do that.
Do you even have the first clue about what affects exchange rates? It's obvious from your comments that you don't know anything about it, and would believe the first politician or TV commentator who tells you what you want to hear, even if the evidence is shoddy and thin.
Do you even have the first clue about what affects exchange rates? It's obvious from your comments that you don't know anything about it, and would believe the first politician or TV commentator who tells you what you want to hear, even if the evidence is shoddy and thin.
Exactly what I'd say about your BELIEF in the Federal Reserve and it's honesty. :P I personaly work for our government and it stretches the truth on what it tells the public. Something you should keep in mind.
Rocky
My question specifically was to imidazol97 see Post#1197 asking for specific facts substantiating his statement. He didnt provide any facts at all before so nothing was 'proven', but I'm open to seeing some and possibly changing my mind if they are real facts.
My comments about WalMart were also in reply to his post also.. not yours.
Since you know so much about it, you should be able to explain it. Repeating the word "manipulation" all day long doesn't explain how it would be done, or why the US, the largest economy on the planet, would be unable to do anything about it.
Now if you have a series of verifiable facts presented by say GM or Ford or the Fed, these we can discuss.
Saying the same thing over and over again doesnt advance the discussion. Bring some facts. Explain how market manipulation works.
Japan, Korea and Taiwan, which represented about $100 billion of the U.S. trade deficit last year, have practiced widespread currency interventions multiple times in 2001 and again in 2002. China, which represented another $100 billion of our trade deficit in 2002, has an artificially low fixed exchange rate that boosts its manufactured exports and retards imports. All told, these four countries account for almost half of the U.S. trade deficit. While other currencies such as the euro have strengthened against the dollar, these four governments have purchased hundreds of billions of dollars in order to keep their currencies undervalued against the dollar.
Japan – Last year, the Japanese government intervened in currency markets to weaken the yen seven times, spending a record 4 trillion yen ($33 billion) to keep the dollar above Y115, intervening as high as Y123. This followed a similar level of intervention in 2001, when they spent a then-record total of $28 billion to weaken their currency. Threats of action (de facto verbal intervention) by high-ranking Japanese financial officials have dominated currency markets for the past five weeks. In January 2003, for example, the Japanese Finance Minister roiled currency markets by indicating his belief that the proper level of the yen to the dollar was in the 150-160 range _ causing the largest single-day decline in the yen/dollar relationship in years. The constant drumbeat of intervention threats by Japanese financial officials prevent the world currency markets from operating freely based on economic reality and distort fundamental trading relationships.
China – Despite the most rapid economic growth in the world, enormous trade surpluses and huge foreign investment inflows - -each of which normally causes a currency to appreciate - - China has used government controls to keep its currency pegged at 8.2 yuan to the dollar since 1994. In 1994, China devalued the yuan by over 40%, helping to set the stage for the East Asian financial crisis of 1997.
In order to maintain an undervalued currency, China has amassed reserves second only to Japan’s, totaling over $250 billion during the past five years. As a result, China’s exports to the United States, which consist primarily of manufactured goods, have doubled over the past five years and now exceed $110 billion a year. Artificially low-priced Chinese exports have affected virtually every sector of the U.S. manufacturing economy. Pressures from China’s currency are affecting not just the United States, but also Mexico, Japan and other Asian countries as they seek to cope with China’s artificially low prices for manufactured goods.
Taiwan and Korea – Taiwan and Korea are also rapidly buying dollars, restricting upward movement of their currencies. Together, these two economies have increased their reserves $75 billion in the last two years – a huge amount, given their trade volumes.
Impact of an Overvalued Dollar on US Foundries
These deliberate policies of currency interventions have added enormously to the U.S. trade deficit by spurring their exports and restricting their imports. The U.S. manufacturing sector in the meantime has borne the brunt of job losses and economic contraction over the last two years, and has lost over two million jobs.
More than one in every ten American factory jobs has disappeared in the last two years. Much of this is directly attributable to export losses and to artificially low priced imports from countries that prevent market forces from determining exchange rates. The U.S. dollar has been allowed to get 30 percent more expensive in terms of other major currencies over the past four years. Since foreign currencies are 30 percent cheaper, this makes many import prices so artificially low that competing against them is almost impossible.
According to the United Auto Workers union, a recent analysis reported that the 30 percent weakening of the yen has given Japanese companies an average price advantage of as much as $3,725 for a vehicle costing $20,000.
That's about as much fact as you gave me in the theory of it not happening.
Rocky
Rocky
Surely, you can't believe that they would be an objective source of information? It would be a bit like going to a tobacco lobbyist in order to "prove" that cigarettes are good for you...
General Motors accuses Japan of currency manipulation
The company charged that Japans weak yen policy gave its exporters an outright annual subsidy of up to 12,000 dollars per vehicle exported to the United States, giving an expected windfall of two billion dollars to Japans automakers.
[an error occurred while processing this directive] "This subsidy has both facilitated the expansion of Japanese companies in the US and succeeded in keeping American-built automobiles out of Japan," General Motors chief economist Mustafa Mohatarem told a Congressional hearing.
The impact of Japans sustained currency manipulation is a key reason for a plethora of problems facing US-owned auto manufacturers, Mohatarem told a US-Japan trade hearing held by the House of Representatives' Committee on Ways and Means.
"However, it is frustrating, really unbelievable, to many of us in this business and the American manufacturing sector that the Japanese governments extraordinary 420 billion dollar currency manipulation program has gone unquestioned and unchallenged, while China has become the sole focus of attention as the threat to American competitiveness," he said.
Lawmakers criticized the government for not being tough with Japan on its currency policy and sought an explanation from David Loevinger, deputy assistant secretary at the US Treasury, among government officials at the hearing.
"We hear the message" Loevinger said.
The Bush administration has discussed foreign exchange market issues with Tokyo officials and "we will continue to strongly express our views that major economies should have flexible exchange rates, determined in the market with intervention kept to a minimum," he said.
Japanese authorities have not intervened in the foreign exchange market since March 2004, Loevinger said.
Despite strong sales, Mohatarem said US auto manufacturers and suppliers were struggling to turn profits, auto workers had been laid off, credit ratings for auto companies had been downgraded and many suppliers were faced with bankruptcy.
On the other hand, he said Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Subaru, and Japans other auto companies announced last week that they earned nearly one billion dollars in unanticipated windfall profits in the first half of fiscal year 2005.
"These were due exclusively to the artificial weakness of the yen," he said, adding that much of that profit increase came as a result of sales in the United States.
Mohatarem said the Congress and the Bush administration should make clear it would make full use of US and international trade laws to discipline unfair currency manipulation.
Last year, the US-Japan bilateral automotive trade deficit reached 44.2 billion dollars, making it the largest sectoral trade deficit the United States maintains with any country.
Also in 2004, automotive trade represented over two-thirds of the total US-Japan deficit.
Mohatarem said the yen dropped to the current level of 111 to the dollar from 105 in early 2005 "due in part to ongoing "jawboning" and verbal intervention by high-ranking Japanese officials.
He cited 90 to 100 yen per dollar as "the commonly accepted range."
This is why GM management is in trouble -- because everybody else is always to blame...except for GM management. Did fluctuating values of the yen have anything to do with the design of the second-rate Cobalt?
By the way, you still haven't explained how the currency is being "manipulated", or how what Japan does it is any different from what other western nations such as the US do when they wish themselves to create short-term fluctuations.
A process by which foreign central banks buy and hold large amounts of U.S. dollars to keep their exchange rates below market levels. The objective is to make their exports cheaper. Such currency manipulation is contrary to the provisions of both the International Monetary Fund and the World Trade Organization, and is a major factor behind the burgeoning U.S. trade deficit.
Examples:
Japan bought an incredible $42.8 billion of U.S. dollars in May 2003 in the most massive intervention ever in foreign exchange markets in order to prevent the yen from rising in value against the dollar. The move is testimony to how strongly market forces are saying the yen in undervalued and the dollar overvalued against it. Japan’s foreign currency reserves are now $523.8 billion – close to one-quarter of all the world’s currency reserves.
Korea and Taiwan also added significantly to their reserves in May. Each bought more than 4.5 billion U.S. dollars. Korea’s reserves now stand at $128 billion and Taiwan’s at $175 billion – huge amounts for economies of their size. In the last 12 months these two economies have increased their dollar holdings by $54 billion to keep markets from appreciating their currencies against the dollar and to maintain a trade advantage over U.S. producers.
China has also been one of the largest purchasers of U.S. dollars, in order to keep its yuan dramatically undervalued. Data are only available through March 2003, but in that month China added $7.8 billion to its currency reserves, bringing them to $316 billion – second only to Japan’s. In the last 12 months, China has purchased $88 billion of U.S. dollars – an amount nearly equivalent to the U.S. trade deficit with China during that time.
“Together, the “Big Four” Asian countries have accumulated over $1 trillion of reserves to keep their currencies low.
(That figure is a 2003 stat)
*BOW* :P
Rocky
You obviously don't know much about FX, but you're not going to learn it from them. Here are a few basic facts:
-Practically every nation on earth holds dollars in reserve. They hold dollars because it is the world's strongest currency, and the closest thing we have today to a gold standard. They aren't doing it to destroy the US, but to stabilize their own economies.
-Exporting nations such as Japan and China hold dollars as a result of selling exports. They take many of these dollars to purchase US treasury bonds, which we use to support our trade deficit. If the US economy wasn't so attractive that we could sell our bonds, we would be in fairly big trouble.
-The US wants a trade deficit, because low-cost imports keep the inflation rate low. The alternative would be to have more expensive products, higher interest rates and (in theory) less economic growth. In contrast, the US has consistently strong GDP growth, usually outpacing Japan and western Europe.
I realize that you gain comfort from your conspiracy theories, but you're missing the boat on Econ 101. Learn about how for ex works, and you'll be embarrassed that you fell for the incomplete half-truths of some DC trade lobby.
This thread says the US is trying to destroy the value of the Yen through market manipulation.. What goes? Huh? I thought you had it the other way around.
-Yeah until the Big 4 asian country's and Russia dump are currency simutaniously to send us into a 29' depression. Remember all 5 are the biggest buyers of Gold and are doing so with a big portion of their income.
Exporting nations such as Japan and China hold dollars as a result of selling exports. They take many of these dollars to purchase US treasury bonds, which we use to support our trade deficit. If the US economy wasn't so attractive that we could sell our bonds, we would be in fairly big trouble.
-What's attractive about a 5.14% interest rate ???? Yes in a very short time some economist are betting on 8-9% for a 30 yr. U.S. treasury bond, some have said as high as 15% if Bush keeps his uncontrolled spending habits. The asians could right now get a better return in Vegas.
-The US wants a trade deficit, because low-cost imports keep the inflation rate low. The alternative would be to have more expensive products, higher interest rates and (in theory) less economic growth. In contrast, the US has consistently strong GDP growth, usually outpacing Japan and western Europe.
Exactly what it is
a "right-wing theory" that Reagan had.
Having a trade deficit with a foreign country and millions of exported jobs is not good for the U.S. like many of you believe. I get this same opinion from the Bush defenders that need to retake econ 101. It's funny how the liberals when they ran congress used to get slammed for having deficit. Now they are saying it's ok and good for us :confuse: Come-on !!!!!!!!!
I realize that you gain comfort from your conspiracy theories, but you're missing the boat on Econ 101. Learn about how for ex works, and you'll be embarrassed that you fell for the incomplete half-truths of some DC trade lobby.
I guess your part of the "lock step" crowd of this administration. Clinton paid down the deficit and had a strong Dollar and we had some of the best economic times in this country's history. I'm no means a die hard Clinton lover because he didn't fight against NAFTA. However his balancing of the budget gave prosperity to millions of americans and I'd take the times of yesterday over the hard times we have today.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky, you are completely confused.
In your last posts, you were complaining about the strong dollar! Now, just a few minutes later, you seem to think that it's a good thing.
You need to make up your mind. A strong dollar is exactly what those lobbyists of yours are opposed to.
Rocky
You seem to have missed the news that the dollar has been largely in a devaluation trend since not long after the Bush administration took office. And despite your conspiracy theories, it's the result of investor concerns about the growing budget deficit caused by the Iraq war, high oil presses and the 2001 recession. Currency values come from the free market betting on the direction of the economy, not the Yellow Peril scheming to destroy you.
The UAW claims a $3700+ advantage on building a $20K vehicle and that was from 2003.
I'd love to see where this "fact" comes from. I look at Edmunds, and I see that a Cobalt is cheaper than a US-built Corolla or Civic. Would a weaker dollar make the Cobalt a better car to drive.
What is the solution ????? Simpily just saying build better cars (which cost alot more) isn't the FIX IT ALL solution when the Japanese will under cut them anyways. Not to mention people like you wouldn't give them the time of day because your import loyalist.
Rocky
It is undoubtedly a better car. Quality and customer satisfaction surveys prove it time and again, and the residuals reflect those. Plus, Honda doesn't need to dump cars into the rental and fleet markets in order to move inventory and artificially inflate perceived demand.
The Japanese can stick their profits in R&D and in the bank, compared to GM hoping to just make enough to break even.
I've already shown on this thread that GM and Toyota spend roughly equal amounts on R&D. Perhaps GM's money would be better spent if it didn't try to spread that money over too many nameplates.
Basically GM and the other Big 2 are at unfair advantages when building cars here in the U.S.
GM got the same financial incentives to build the Saturn plant in Tennessee that Nissan did -- none. (Those are illegal in TN.) But Saturn was offered plenty of incentives by other states eager to take them.
GM might be offered still more if they'd build the plants in the US, instead of in China. But nobody in Wisconsin or North Carolina is going to offer free money to Ford for building its Fusion plant in Hermosillo, a plant that is scheduled to run triple shifts while Ford lays off workers in their US plants.
I guess the only solution is to let the Big 3 die ?????
Chrysler is now a subsidiary of Daimler, based in Stuttgart, so only two remain. And neither of the other two needs to die if they would make cars that people want. When people wanted SUV's, they did well; now that they don't, GM and Ford will need to shift gears, become competitive or be left behind. That's what free enterprise is all about, let's hope that they don't blow it.
Both Japan and China are upto their gills in US treasuries. Economists here (in Japan) are starting to question why Japan needs to keep on buying more USD (the currency manipulation Rocky you refer to requires buying and owning USD....), since a devaluation of the USD will create a huge loss for Bank of Japan.
One theory gaining ground these days is that Japan continues to buy USD because it is also being asked to do so by the US Govt, since if Japan and China stop buying USD, interest rates in the US would shoot up (otherwise how is US going to fund its 2Bn USD a day deficit?), causing a meltdown in the housing market, which would then seriously impact consumer demand.
This theory has some credibility because of the striking silence of US Govt despite huge surplus being registered by Japan and China.
So it is not that easy - US Govt cannot simply say "Ok you guys, stop buying USD from today". For the Govt, sustaining the housing market today is 1000x more important than saving some Auto Industry jobs.
Rocky
The constant shifting of demands for proof by others and twisting of what is said and constant picking of a trivial detail about which to argue has made this a circular discussion. You would probably like the Internet Salesman discussion if you have time to read through it callmedrfill, "Make Me a Better (Online) Car Salesman!" #1, 13 Feb 2006 6:54 pm and see the same techniques.
This discussion has gone nowhere other than as an example for debate classes. I keep expecting it to be shut down like Repeal Speed limits was.
There is no convincing if the others like being able to change the topic and make arguement rather than discussion. It surely turns off anyone reading the discussion who might join in when they sense the angst.
The only part I can comment on from an earlier post is that Clinton lowered the deficit. Many things were moved off the records that actually are part of the deficit. It was like saying your house payment isn't part of your debt just because you'd like to do your accounting that way before you report the current rockylee national debt. I don't know if those errors have been corrected by the current administration; I do know they are spending us to oblivion and doing whatever looks good at the moment for the economy (like the previous). That would include allowing the undervalued currencies of Japan and China because they keep US consumers happier buying from Walmart source companies they forced to move to China to be able to get cheaper goods for their store and they keep the interest rate lower especially for the housing market. If everything slows down the economy will show that it's tanked and people won't revote the same type administration into office again. After all, it's getting re-elected that is important, not running the country well. But that's another topic.
And that's my opinion, so please don't someone demand a proof item...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why would you describe it to be manipulation when Japan trades dollars and treasury bills, but it's A-OK when the US does it? Why do you hold the US to a different standard than another western country?
You keep trying to "prove" something to someone who is obviously not going to change their position. Then you start in with "my sources are better than yours", and finally we devolve into "you don't understand/know how to read", etc.
Time to put this fight down folks and move on.
The data I was referring to was from the Clinton years... but that's OK son. Hold firmly to your misconceptions.
I just came back from a trip to Indiana where I had the pleasure to rent a Pontiac Grand Prix. It was a brand new car, but it felt like it was 10 yeas old. I hated every thing about this car. The seating position was all wrong, the seat was too low to the ground. The car was big on the outside, small on the inside. The car looked cheap on the inside with low grade plastic and cheap radio. The climate control had buttons that were so small that they were impossible to turn with glove. (It was very cold there last week.) This car did not even have an outside temperature gage. Driving on the freeway was not as quite as it should have been because of the 4-speed transmission. When the car downsifted it went from 2K RPM to 3K RPM because of the lack of the 2nd overdrive gear. Just every thing about this car said 1995 not 2006.
The point is that GM simply builds very bad and outdated cars. It has nothing to do with currency manipulations, it has every thing to do with the product. In stead of GM building one good W-Body car, they build 3 mediocre ones like Grand Prix, Impala and LaCrosse. These 3 cars attract the same type of people, if I don't like Grand Prix, I will also not like the Impala. The point is that they spend the money to compete with them selfs. Instead of GM competing with Toyota, we have Pontiac competing with Chevy.
Build decent cars and maybe people will buy them. GM SUVs are very nice. I looked at the 2007 Tahoe and I liked what I saw. Its the GM cars that suck........
I can understand your other complaints, but... what I mean is...does this even..."an outside tempature guage"? Um, so?
I really do wonder how many are turned off to American cars because of the rental experience. The Big 2.5 have really blown it by using their rental fleet sales as a dumping ground, rather than a showcase to show off their cars. There aren't too many people I know who spend a lot of time doing business travel who would willingly buy an American-made mid-sized sedan.
BTW.. there is no Big 3. That's a German company that owns the #4 producer.
Basically GM and the other Big 2 are at unfair advantages when building cars here in the U.S. ( they made their bed now they have to sleep in it ). The Japanese can stick their profits in R&D and in the bank, compared to GM hoping to just make enough to break even. (because they have to pay Jobs Bank and Healthcare for 1.1 Million people, this is true ). I guess the only solution is to let the Big 3 die ????? ( They wont die they will restructure and cut away the deadwood and be a lot stronger in the future ).
I mean all of my cars can show the temperature outside the car. Even my cheap Ford Expedition XLT can display the outside temperature on the gage cluster. Its important to know outside temperature in the winter because if its around 32, you don't know if the road will freeze or not. This is not an option, its standard on most cars. I know that all Hondas have this feature.
My point was that its hard to blame Japanese currency manipulations for GMs failure to build decent cars. I think GM has nobody to blame for its lack of attention and lack of investment in cars but it self. Why can a company build good SUV and truck, but not a decent passenger car? But what do we expect, Pontiac Grand Prix is almost the same car which was introduced in 1988.
Don't you think that 18 years is a long time to produce a car with only moderate changes? The same thing happened to Ford Taurus. It was a great car for its time, but complete lack of investment lead to Ford Taurus being a rental car and nothing more. I mean who would buy Ford Taurus or Pontiac Grand Prix as a personnel car?
This is a good question and one that is not often asked.
In my opinion.. no facts
Auto's were literally poor stepchildren. So they gave up on them and allowed Toyota and Honda to have this entire market. No profit no interest. This was GM's conscious decision which I'd wager that they got the agreement of the US Govt and Toyota and Honda before they put it in place. In fact while GM has shrunk in the last 20 yrs the entire NA auto industry is booming and has grown nearly 40%. GM simply decided to give away the auto part, their costs couldn't support it.
The auto's that they did produce, as many have noted here, are destined to go into fleets thus are cheaply made and cheaply sold. There is no interest to produce a highquality midsized auto if in 9 months it will be a 'used car' when the fleet is done with it.
At the same time they also made the desicion to move their auto operations out of the US to Mexico, Australia, China, Europe, etc.
In the nearterm GM in N America will be mainly a truck maker with one high quality auto brand, Cadillac. These all generate good profits and are healthy and vibrant.
It's cold-hearted on GM's part but it's just business, emphasize what makes you the most money and shrink the rest.
Back in the late 80's when GM agreed with the UAW on peace for the next 20 yrs they took a long hard look at their product mix and decided that low-priced, low-margin autos were not able to support the Jobs Bank program and health insurance for retirees.
Aside from faulting the union specifically, I'd wholeheartedly buy that analysis.
But to add to that, the obsession on margin and efficiency led to a dismissal of most regular passenger car segments, and an excessive effort to badge engineer and indulge in an acquisition spree, rather than focus on conquering market share and fighting off rivals in primary segments such as small- and mid-sized sedans.
GM seemed to fail to realize that Toyota, Honda, and others would not only use the small and mid-sized segments not just to earn profits, but also to build credibility and create opportunities for progressive marketing in other segments...ironically, which is exactly what Sloan had done with the GM of old vis-a-vis Chevrolet. Funny for GM to miss a variation on the strategy that they themselves had used to become the world's largest car maker.
But addressing your surprise about how (or why) I know so much about the housing market. Two reasons : 1) Because for the last three years this market has been driving US consumption, and thus indirectly the world economy (so all of us had better watch out when this tanks); 2) US is the largest Economy in the world, and the second largest trading partner for Japan (China has now become No. 1) - So we need to know what makes it tick.
Now if US spent equivalent amount of time studying international geopolitical issues (instead of TV shows like The Apprentice), you wouldnt be in Iraq
I agree with you
Rocky
But addressing your surprise about how (or why) I know so much about the housing market. Two reasons : 1) Because for the last three years this market has been driving US consumption, and thus indirectly the world economy (so all of us had better watch out when this tanks); 2) US is the largest Economy in the world, and the second largest trading partner for Japan (China has now become No. 1) - So we need to know what makes it tick.
Now if US spent equivalent amount of time studying international geopolitical issues (instead of TV shows like The Apprentice), you wouldnt be in Iraq
We're in Iraq because we want to be there professor. We loved smacking around fascists like the Nipponese and the [non-permissible content removed] in the past, and we love smacking around the fascist Mohammedans today. I've served two tours in Iraq so far, and we don't have a shortage of people who want to re-enlist. There are some problems with recruiting because the average citizen is so misinformed about what is going on in Iraq. This misinformation is due to exposure to media coverage of world affairs, not a lack of it. Also, there are Japanese troops in Iraq. You are probably a typical Japanese xenophobe, and therefore have an innate sympathy for the xenophobic Salafists.