OMG No... Not WalMart again??? You are joking right? C'mon I know you're joking.
From what I can gather it is the UAW's worst nightmare that the WalMart recruiter/drafter is just waiting for the other shoe to fall before signing up the entire UAW as greeters at their local store.
What if you refused to work there and started your own business or became a mechanic at an Chevy dealership or a sales person making $100K+ ( easily ) selling the same auto's you had been making. Two guys at my store used to work at the Norfolk F150 plant and each makes well north of $100K as their own boss with their own hours - selling Toyota's of all things.
Perhaps the pay/benefits an employee receives should be in line with the value that employee adds to the final product. Or is this a foreign concept?
Personally, I agree with you regarding the extravagent bonuses. The idea of awarding massive bonuses while a company is hemoraging red ink is (IMO) criminal. But eliminating million dollar bonuses doesn't solve the problem when a company is losing BILLIONS every quarter.
"But asking for a 63% wage reduction to $12 dollars an hour and paying $300-650 (propasals) a month for health insurance...."
That sounds like somebody using scare tactics. Where do those figures come from?
Heck, pretty soon I'd have to sell the house and move back to the 'hood.
Consider being a bum in a big city. You pick the days you want to work (beg), set your own hours, can take cold months off (if in northern climate), and you are accorded rights to be on sidewalks and streets. If you are entreprenureal, you can set up business cleaning car windshields at traffic lights or selling newspapers. If cops or someone hassles, you can get free attorney or if big hassle, large civil liberties group in US will step in and help. Medical care is free at emergency rooms of hospitals (they can't refuse anyone). In cold climates, big cities set up warming centers in winter and cooling centers in summer, have soup kitchens, churches set up nights when you can sleep there. And, rather than living in some hick town or mcmansion suburb, you can be living in the heart of the big city where all the action is.
Maybe you can tell us, the ignorant ones, how MOST Americans are much better off than Lemko, since you seem to know A LOT about Average Americans. Do you work for the census bureau? I'd like to know if you have conducted a poll that shows that MOST Americans are well educated, and do not fear loosing their jobs, because they are ready to start their own business. Or maybe they already have another job waiting? Can you please be so kind and tell us, where the 300,000 GM and Ford workers are going to find a job? And how our frail economy is going to react to such a huge loss of revenue, taxes and disposable income. You must have figured this problem out, since you are not worried about GM's and Ford's issues. What world are you living in?
...I could always work 40 hours a week at my second job which pays $11 in addition to the 40 at Delphi for $12 an hour. Heck, if I could get 32 hrs of overtime at the other job, I might actually come out ahead! Wow, I'd only have to work 112 hours a week! Just think of all the money I'd save because I'd have no time to spend it on anything!
Once again, you seem to know a whole lot about everything. However, instead of trying to discredit others, you should explain to us, how is it that in the face of the facts: Rising cost of copper, aluminum, steel, cement, oil and other important minerals, due to the increased demand from China. Loss of major industries and manufacturing decline. Rapid increase of trade deficit and under-employment. You still have the nerve to tell us that it is business as usual? Where the heck are you living Pal?
All one needs to do is abandon his family and let them die like dogs on the street. Then he can pursue that Ivy League education for a magical MBA to build that business that makes him a millionaire overnight.
Well, if I have a business, who's going to purchase my product or service if everybody's out of work? Also, if everybody opens a business, won't the market become too saturated for those products or services?
My thoughts exactly. In addition there are a few on this forum that would never buy your product, because they would rather save a few bucks by buying cheap Chinese knock-offs. So that they can pay for that BMW and Hoyonda.
...one industry that is recession-proof is the underground pharmaceutical industry. The market is going to explode. There will be more poor and disenfranchised folks than ever and want to get real high real fast.
Had a debate with some co-workers the other day about what constitutes an "American" car - some argued if the car is manufactured in the U.S. it qualified, others argued if that's the case then does the Canadian-built Impala or Sierra not qualify? Someone else said it went back to where the company was based (i.e. where the profits are going); but if that's the case then does Daimler-Chrysler not count since they're German owned?
We never really came up with a decisive answer, but one question came up that I didn't know the answer to, and I thought perhaps someone here might be able to point me to this information: Is there a list somewhere of where the various auto plants are located, and what is built there? I know lots of "domestic" autos are made in Canada and Mexico, and lots of "import" cars are made in the USA...but if there were a list somewhere of "manufacturer A makes automobile B in city/state/country C" one could at least have a starting point to work from if they wanted to try to favor autos manufactured in this country.
"Is there a list somewhere of where the various auto plants are located, and what is built there?"
Well, this doesn't list the city or state (or province for Canada or Mexico) but it is a current (last week's production data) list of all vehicles built in North America.
seems to be getting the most new assembly plants. The work force is plentiful since textiles are moving out quickly...
However, Georgia, seems to be losing assembly plants fast. GM and Ford have announced closing down major assembly plants in Atlanta. I think I read just a few weeks ago that vehicle assembly plants are now Alabama's #1 employeer.
I'd imagine that there are at least 40+ assembly plants in US. Actually, I think we still have one up the street from me. (they make the AVANTI). It's not a big selling brand though, Aahaha
Actually, it was called the Allstate based on the Henry J built by Kaiser-Frazer. The car came with a Sears battery and tires. Crosley was a separate make. Crosley was known for low-cost refrigerators and radios before Powell Crosley Jr. got into the auto business - his first love. He was also the owner of the Cincinnati Reds who then played at Crosley Field.
Thanks for the resource! Of course, this info only serves to muddy the waters more than clearing them up...am I more "American" for buying a Chevy HHR (made in Mexico) or a BMW Z4 (made in the US)? Should I be proud of driving my 2000 Impala because it's a Chevy, or feel guilty because it's made in Canada?
At least if I were to buy something tomorrow it'd probably be a Colorado pickup, which I know is made in Shreveport, LA, USA - so no identity complex there (unless you factor in the fact that this truck was originally engineered for Asian markets, but that adds a whole other layer of confusion to the mix!).
Loss of major industries and manufacturing decline. Rapid increase of trade deficit and under-employment. You still have the nerve to tell us that it is business as usual? Where the heck are you living Pal?
You and your friends keep saying this but there is no decline or loss of industry in the US auto market - it just moved. It's still here it just doesnt employ the same people. In fact the auto production in NA is 40% larger than it was in 1985. It's a fact, auto production is booming and you wont accept it.
I do recognize and have said many times here that there will be losses and dislocations in certain areas but other areas will benefit. Life here has always been this way since the Insustrial Revolution in the 1800's. There is nothing surprising to this. It has made us stronger because we've had to adjust and grow more creative. That is the strongest part of the American way of life. Nearly all of the major advances in the last 100 years have come from NA in the form of one person or small group taking a chance and changing the world. Think, Ford, Edison, Bell, General Electric, Wright Bros, Dell, IBM, Micsoft, Intel and on and on and on. Most started on a shoestring and America allowed them to succeed.
This will not change - unless you give up. Then you are lost but it's your choice.
I do know this about Americans they are not quitters. Lemko said in the post I referenced that if he lost 63% of his income that he have to give up a whole list of things. I was pointing out that this is not the normal way Americans act. They dont quit. They adjust and move on and contiunue to succeed.
I've changed entire careers and locals 3 times in my life and made more money each time in each new location. I meet the public everyday 4-5 times daily now and see their jobs and credit and family situations. Doom and gloom? Hardly. How about 'where can we invest in order to make money while we work at our regular jobs. There are so many examples of entrepaneurs going off on their own and making it big you can't imagine it. I see it because they bring their financials when they come to buy.
Ford and GM have one reason to exist - to make profits for their shareholders. Secondarily to be good citizens and care for their workers. but the shareholders are first. Both need to shrink in order to be more profitable. That's life.
What are you trying to do - MAKE us talk about the topic of this thread?
"......am I more "American" for buying a..."
Ahhhh, crux of the matter. The answer to that question all depends on who you ask (and which manufacturer their family works for..).
The resource I'd love to see would be a listing, by individual model, of the % of domestic content. The resource I gave you was only the final assembly. It's very possible (probable?) that a vehicle assembled in Canada would have higher domestic content than one assembled in the U.S.
If country of origin is really important, I would do this: make a list of all vehicles in the class you are considering (in addition to the Colorado you might include the Tacoma, Nissan Frontier, and Dodge Dakota). Go to the dealerships and check the label on each to determine % of domestic content, source of engine/transmission, and place of final assembly.
Design - I wasn't aware that the Colorado was originally designed for the Asian market. Is it the same truck as sold overseas? I do know that the Tacoma was designed here in the U.S. (California) by Toyota's US division and I'm fairly sure the same can be said for the Frontier.
The resource I'd love to see would be a listing, by individual model, of the % of domestic content. The resource I gave you was only the final assembly. It's very possible (probable?) that a vehicle assembled in Canada would have higher domestic content than one assembled in the U.S.
A couple of things about that:
-The content labeling on cars is one of "US/Canadian content". The auto industry of the two countries are so interconnected that you won't find a label seperating the two.
-The window sticker shows the point of assembly and where the engine was assembled.
-Automotive News' sales tables will also tell you whether a car is "domestic" or "imported" -- however, "domestic" includes both Canada and Mexico, which downplays the imported figure for the Big 2.5.
"The content labeling on cars is one of "US/Canadian content"
Yes, I know. This has always raised my hackles a bit. As far as I'm concerned the INTENT of a label should be to show what % of the parts are U.S. and what % are non-U.S.
The simple fact that it written so that Canadian parts were treated as 'domestic' while Japanese (or German) parts were imported was just a sop to the B2.5.
I probably didn't state myself well in the earlier post. My point was that it is possible for a car ASSEMBLED in either Canada or Mexico to have a higher 'domestic' parts content than a car assembled in the U.S. Unfortunately, the picture is muddied (further) since 'domestic' parts include those from beyond our border.
I thought the window sticker included point of origin for the transmission as well? Hmmm, learn something new everyday......
"however, "domestic" includes both Canada and Mexico, which downplays the imported figure for the Big 2.5."
Why do I get the feeling that if GM had been importing a few 100k units from a plant in Brazil when the laws were written, that Brazil would be included as a 'domestic' country?
My understanding is the Colorado/Canyon was primarily designed by/with Isuzu; even though the Isuzu version was the last to the market in the US.
Hadn't thought about % of domestic content, yet another layer to consider.
So while there's no clear determining factor, we've got to factor in at least the following: 1) Nationality of parent company 2) % of domestic content 3) Final assembly location
On the surface it would seem that #1 would limit us to Ford and GM (tradition would include Chrysler/Dodge, but technically...). If you then looked at item #3 and found those vehicles made by those companies manufactured within the U.S., and THEN from that list found those vehicles which have the greatest % of domestic content (and of course, we could argue about where to draw the line on content), you could say that whatever vehicles met those criteria could be considered "domestic."
But what about brands like Mazda? It's owned (100%??) by Ford, and the Mazda6 is manufactured in the US (but I don't know about domestic/foreign content). It could be more "American" to drive a Mazda6 than an Impala or a Silverado!
Being a huge GM fan, you would have loved the title of an article that appeared in the February 22, 2006 issue of AutoBeat Daily(The Daily Report For Automotive Executives). It read the same as the subject of this post. Here's an excerpt from the article:
"With a new pricing strategy and several new products, General Motors Corp. is outperforming a weak U.S. market in early February sales, says the Power Information Network.
The dealer-based sales tracking system developed by J.D. Power and Associates estimates industry sales fell 8% through mid-month. But GM sales dropped just 1%--meaning its retail market share is creeping up--despite a 15% reduction in cash rebates year over year. Toyota's sales also declined by 1%; its rebate spending is down 19%."
"Honda was the only major carmaker to see higher sales. Buoyed by interest in its new Civic compact and Ridgeline pickup, its year-on-year sales are up 4%."
Unfortunately for GM, however, there was a separate article in the same edition of AutoBeat Daily which stated that Moody's has lowered GM's rating on $30 billion of their debt another rung to five below investment grade. This particular article described how a Delphi strike could devastate GM. If it were to end up being an extended strike, it could potentially push GM into bankruptcy.
The USA handed to the Koreans and the Japanese the FUTURE auto market. Thanks to greed, corruption, and shoddy quality, and lousy fuel economy, the Yankees will soon be ALSO RANS against the Asian automakers. Hello Toyota, GOODBYE Chevy, Ford and Dodge (junk, junk, and junk). QUALITY SELLS.
Sorry, some of us have had the same employeer for the past 25-45 years. We only manufacture something that can't really be made and sold from overseas. Guess what it is?
Sorry, some of us have had the same employeer for the past 25-45 years. We only manufacture something that can't really be made and sold from overseas. Guess what it is?
Sounds like an excuse not to change. Noone's feet are cemented in place. I've done it after 25 yrs myself so I have little acceptance for anyone who wont also.
Americans have been uprooting themselves and moving eversince they first came here. We of all people are the most mobile and flexible and creative. The whole reason for coming to the US, and nearly all of our ancestors did, was to get away and get something better. Nothing has changed.
Does anyone think if GM or Ford goes under and is replaced by Asian manufactures that the country will do as well?
Some say, but the big 2 1/2 builds cars and trucks in Mexico. Looking at the shape they are in, if they didn't, they would already be in bankruptcy. They have expenses that the Asian and European companies don't have and it puts them at a huge disadvantage.
Companies like Honda and Toyota are making many thousands of dollars more on a vehicle than American manufactures are. They are investing billions here, but they are sending many more billions out of the country that will help their economy, not ours. I have no doubt, if GM or Ford goes under, it will ripple all across this country in lost jobs out of the auto industry, and smaller raises for many more.
When an American plant closes, it hits the city it's in hard. Even if a foreign company came in a year later and took over the same plant, it wouldn't be the same. Most of these foreign plants aren't union and even if they are, the pay scale would be much lower, as they would be younger and would be new hires, that start at a much lower rate. If you have an person working for an American plant and is making $50,000 a year, he is paying a lot more taxes to the city, county, state and federal government than one working for a foreign automaker that is only paying $35-$40,000. a year.(Both figures could be higher).
That older employees working for an American firm has got 10-25-30 years in. He is making top pay. He is getting 4-5 weeks vacation. He is traveling over the country on planes, staying in hotels, buying furniture, campers,etc. He is buying more and spending more. Governments are taking in more tax dollars and when they do that, government employees get bigger raises. Airlines and furniture stores hire more people. That money filters back into the economy making more jobs for Americans. Giving them bigger raises. This doesn't even take in the billions of dollars in profit that American companies spend here. Unlike the billions that are sent out of the country by foreign firms. There was an old saying, said by a GM CEO, many years ago. It went something like this. As GM goes, so goes the Nation. Well it's not as true now as it was then, but it's still true. Foreign manufactures will not put back into this country what GM,Ford or even what Chrysler will.
The USA handed to the Koreans and the Japanese the FUTURE auto market. Thanks to greed, corruption, and shoddy quality, and lousy fuel economy, the Yankees will soon be ALSO RANS against the Asian automakers. Hello Toyota, GOODBYE Chevy, Ford and Dodge (junk, junk, and junk). QUALITY SELLS.
You had better hope that it's not goodbye Chevy,Ford and Dodge. Because there will be a heck of a lot of Americans that will suffer from it. (See my post above)
I'd be the first to admit, that there were a lot of years America put out junk. I had a Pont.Phoenix that was one of them. But America has come a long way just in the last 5 years. Granted there are still some models that need improvement, but on a whole, American quality is way up from what it was only a few years ago. We have even moved ahead of the European cars and are ahead of some of the Japanese models in quality.
I would hope that the majority of Americans don't think as you do and write off ever buying American cars again. All that will do is hurt this country.
GM/F will not go out of business. They will and are in the process of cutting out unprofitable and unnecessary operations. In the end, even after a possible BK, they both will emerge stronger and more profitable. Companies do this all the time.
When I started working for one company in 1977 there were 750 total workers doing about $1 Billion in sales. When I retired in 1998 there were 175 employees doing just under $2 Billion in sales. This was one medium-sized company. Now multiply it by 1000 companies or 10000 companies all over N America. The automotie industry is not immune to increases in productivity.
Again... the automotive industry in NA is booming... it's 40% bigger than it was in 1985.
Life goes on. The 1950's adage about 'As GM goes...' just is no longer valid.
Your comments about 'foreign companies' not putting as much into the US as our Detroit brethren is also way off base. BTW Chrysler is the same as Honda or Hyundai.
When Ford builds a plant in Hermosillo and starts now a third shift - filling it to capacity - it does nothing for the US economy. When Hyundai fills a third shift in Alabama because the Sonata is growing by leaps and bounds or Toyota builds a new engine plant in Mich, this is good for our economy.
You make a good point. My FIL, retired from LTV when they went bankrupt 4 years ago or so. When he retired they were putting out double the tonnage of steel with 1/2 the workers when compared to the early 80's. This is why world wide manufacturing employment is shrinking. We simply are able to produce more per man hour.
BTW, not is all bad for US manufacturing. A good friend of mine is a supervisor for Cessna. We were BSing last night over a few beers talking about his job.
Currently, Cessna's backlog for business jets is longer now than it was pre-911. If you want to order a $10+ million Citation business jet, $500k down now and you'll see your plane sometime in 2008 and they are manufactured right here in Wichita, KS. They are assembled with union labor, and even though these guys are assembling $10-20 million jets, they don't get UAW wages/benefits. Top wage is about $24 with starting wages as low as $10 depending on your job class.
Guess who Cessna models their production quality processes after? Non other than Toyota. My buddy was sent to several Toyota plants to learn/observe how they achieve their quality and efficiency.
Guess who Cessna models their production quality processes after? Non other than Toyota. My buddy was sent to several Toyota plants to learn/observe how they achieve their quality and efficiency.
Isn't it ironic that many US businesses did not embrace good quality management (and management in general) from their own home-grown experts such as Deming and Juran. After WWII, US expert Deming went to Japan to help them improve their processes and quality. He was given much credit for Japan's quality successes in subsequent decades. They honored him by naming a Japan annual quality award in his name. I believe that Deming died sometime in the 90's. When US auto woke up in early 80's, realizing that Japan had caught and surpassed US auto quality, they tried to understand and implement some of his teachings.
Your comments about 'foreign companies' not putting as much into the US as our Detroit brethren is also way off base. BTW Chrysler is the same as Honda or Hyundai.
When Ford builds a plant in Hermosillo and starts now a third shift - filling it to capacity - it does nothing for the US economy. When Hyundai fills a third shift in Alabama because the Sonata is growing by leaps and bounds or Toyota builds a new engine plant in Mich, this is good for our economy.
I beg to differ with you. Foreign automakers don't put anywhere near as much back into the American economy as America automakers or create as many jobs.
"•The domestic parts content for GM vehicles sold in North America is 82%. This means more jobs for Americans by American OWNED businesses. The profit stays in the U. S. –Toyota Motor Company’s domestic parts content is under 36%; Lexus band is 3.4%. Using these foreign made auto parts provides jobs for more Japanese, not Americans. The profit for these parts stay in Japan!
•In the past 5 years, GM has invested over 20 billion in the U.S.
•GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product is about 4 times that of Toyota
•GM, Ford and DCX manufacturer 75% of all cars and trucks built in the United States
•The U.S. domestic auto manufacturers employ almost 90% of all American Auto Workers. The Big Three currently have about 470,000 direct employees in the United States , this is nearly 10 times as many as the Japanese transplants (49,000)
•For every 100 vehicles sold in the United States , approximately 23 jobs are provided - nearly twice as many as our Japanese counterparts"
Does anyone think if GM or Ford goes under and is replaced by Asian manufactures that the country will do as well?
A few points:
-I highly doubt that GM or Ford will go under. The stockholders and the US government won't allow it to happen. But the companies may change, and anyone even casually observing knows that they are in dire need of change.
-In any case, I don't what this means. I don't profit at all because GM is building Buicks in China and selling them to the Chinese. These cars could have been built in the US and exported in order to generate American jobs (both directly and indirectly through assembly, suppliers, etc.), create tax revenues for the US government, increase US GDP and reduce the trade deficit. But with GM's current plans, the only beneficiaries are GM's stockholders and upper management.
As it stands, the average American, IRS and the US economy will be better off if some company -- any company -- builds stuff using US-made parts and American labor. Where that company is headquartered is completely irrelevant to how we get the benefits.
As GM goes, so goes the Nation
That's simply a lie. If I worked at GM, I would want you to believe that, of course, but this economy is not rooted solely in the success of GM.
I've provided this info elsewhere on this board, but it bears repeating -- more than half of GM's car production is outside the US or Canada. It is increasing production in Asia while reducing it in the US and Canada. It is hiring people abroad while reducing its US payrolls.
GM is not your friend, it is just a business out to serve its interests. It is not an "American" company, it is a multinational that has loyalty to NO nation. It is rapidly working to move more of its production abroad to low-wage nations, and would fire every American it could if it had a chance.
The best hopes for the US are companies such as Toyota and Honda, which are perfectly happy to build cars with American parts and American workers if they can achieve high quality and serve their customers. They possess far greater vision than do the beancounters that dominate companies such as GM, that see workers as an unpleasant expense item on the income statement.
If your goal is to support GM, then I'd start learning Mandarin, because that's where GM is placing its bets, not here.
"In 1987, Toyota constructed an auto plant on part of the 1,500 acres of free land given to them in Georgetown, Kentucky. The auto plant was built by a Japanese steel company using Japanese steel. The U.S. government granted a “special trade zone” so that Toyota could import auto parts from Japan duty-free. Financing was handled by Mitsui Bank of Japan. Total federal and state grants and incentives exceeded $100 million. These subsidies, of course, were courtesy of your tax dollars."
"In 1987, Toyota constructed an auto plant on part of the 1,500 acres of free land given to them in Georgetown, Kentucky. The auto plant was built by a Japanese steel company using Japanese steel. The U.S. government granted a “special trade zone” so that Toyota could import auto parts from Japan duty-free. Financing was handled by Mitsui Bank of Japan. Total federal and state grants and incentives exceeded $100 million. These subsidies, of course, were courtesy of your tax dollars."
-If GM and Ford would build new plants in the US, instead of in China and Mexico, then they would be offered similar packages. But since they outsource what they can, don't expect them to be offered anything by Kentucky or any other American state.
-When GM was choosing sites for the Saturn plant, it was offered similar packages. Again, it would get more offers in the US for the same thing if it was actually interested in building new US facilities.
-Your obviously biased source doesn't mention:
**The number of people employed by the plant in Kentucky
**The value of US parts needed for assembly in that plant. (For example, a Camry built in Kentucky includes 80% of US/Canadian content, a greater quantity than a Mexican-built Ford Fusion or a Chrysler 300.)
**The US suppliers who benefit from the sale of those parts to TMC
**The taxes paid by the American workers and the suppliers
**The residual benefit of the various businesses and communities gained by having more employed in high wage jobs
Why do you think that the people of Kentucky would want new manufacuturing in their state? What would they have done with that land and those unemployed people had Toyota not come along to help them? One thing we know for sure -- GM and Ford sure aren't going to lift a finger to help.
I've provided this info elsewhere on this board, but it bears repeating -- more than half of GM's car production is outside the US or Canada. It is increasing production in Asia while reducing it in the US and Canada. It is hiring people abroad while reducing its US payrolls.
Of course, GM is a world automaker. They make cars like Volvo and Jagquire?, etc. that is made and mostly sold over seas. They are selling more cars abroad than they sell in America, which counts for the layoff here. Because Asian automakers sell more cars here than America automakers sell here.
Many Americans have come to believe it makes no difference if you buy American or foreign cars made here, it's all the same. We buy and put on foreign made parts and so do they. True, but it's not anywhere near equal.
If GM and Ford would build new plants in the US, instead of in China and Mexico, then they would be offered similar packages. But since they outsource what they can, don't expect them to be offered anything by Kentucky or any other American state.
Be real. Do you think GM could sell cars made here to the Chinese? Do you have any idea of the average Chinese salary? They make them there because they can build them cheaper there and sell them.
Be real. Do you think GM could sell cars made here to the Chinese? Do you have any idea of the average Chinese salary? They make them there because they can build them cheaper there and sell them.
I agree, GM wants the benefits of lower labor costs, lower distribution costs, and the inevitable joint venture agreements that China will require for foreign companies to play ball in its economy.
That's all great for GM, and the stockholders of GM, so I understand why GM wants to do it. It just doesn't squat for the American worker or consumer.
The American economy gets nothing out of GM's Chinese business. The American worker gets nothing out of GM's Chinese business. The US treasury gets nothing out of GM's Chinese business.
Ask yourself a question: Which company is more likely to increase its American payrolls, GM or Toyota?
The obvious answer -- Toyota. GM is shifting out of the US, away from US production, with an eye to reduce its US workforce and US tax obligations.
Toyota is doing the exact opposite. Who cares where the mail to the corporate offices goes?
Comments
From what I can gather it is the UAW's worst nightmare that the WalMart recruiter/drafter is just waiting for the other shoe to fall before signing up the entire UAW as greeters at their local store.
What if you refused to work there and started your own business or became a mechanic at an Chevy dealership or a sales person making $100K+ ( easily ) selling the same auto's you had been making. Two guys at my store used to work at the Norfolk F150 plant and each makes well north of $100K as their own boss with their own hours - selling Toyota's of all things.
Or you could give up. Both are valid options.
Personally, I agree with you regarding the extravagent bonuses. The idea of awarding massive bonuses while a company is hemoraging red ink is (IMO) criminal. But eliminating million dollar bonuses doesn't solve the problem when a company is losing BILLIONS every quarter.
"But asking for a 63% wage reduction to $12 dollars an hour and paying $300-650 (propasals) a month for health insurance...."
That sounds like somebody using scare tactics. Where do those figures come from?
Why not? Sears gave it a shot.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
AAA and Costco both serve as intermediaries to dealers, so I suppose that The End Is Near.
(Excuse me, let me go look out the window, I think I just heard the horsemen of the Apocalypse galloping by.)
Consider being a bum in a big city. You pick the days you want to work (beg), set your own hours, can take cold months off (if in northern climate), and you are accorded rights to be on sidewalks and streets. If you are entreprenureal, you can set up business cleaning car windshields at traffic lights or selling newspapers. If cops or someone hassles, you can get free attorney or if big hassle, large civil liberties group in US will step in and help. Medical care is free at emergency rooms of hospitals (they can't refuse anyone). In cold climates, big cities set up warming centers in winter and cooling centers in summer, have soup kitchens, churches set up nights when you can sleep there. And, rather than living in some hick town or mcmansion suburb, you can be living in the heart of the big city where all the action is.
I support your opinion 100%
how MOST Americans are much better off than Lemko, since you seem to know A LOT about Average Americans.
Do you work for the census bureau?
I'd like to know if you have conducted a poll that shows that MOST Americans are well educated, and do not fear loosing their jobs, because they are ready to start their own business. Or maybe they already have another job waiting? Can you please be so kind and tell us, where the 300,000 GM and Ford workers are going to find a job?
And how our frail economy is going to react to such a huge loss of revenue, taxes and disposable income.
You must have figured this problem out, since you are not worried about GM's and Ford's issues.
What world are you living in?
However, instead of trying to discredit others, you should explain to us, how is it
that in the face of the facts: Rising cost of copper, aluminum, steel, cement, oil and other important minerals, due to the increased demand from China. Loss of major industries and manufacturing decline. Rapid increase of trade deficit and under-employment. You still have the nerve to tell us that it is business as usual? Where the heck are you living Pal?
Well, if I have a business, who's going to purchase my product or service if everybody's out of work? Also, if everybody opens a business, won't the market become too saturated for those products or services?
In addition there are a few on this forum that would never buy your product, because they would rather save a few bucks by buying cheap Chinese knock-offs. So that they can pay for that BMW and Hoyonda.
Let's get away from this gloom and doom, sky is falling nonsense.
I think they once sold Cushman scooters too...
http://www.ggw.org/~cac/SS-Cobras-part2.html
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We never really came up with a decisive answer, but one question came up that I didn't know the answer to, and I thought perhaps someone here might be able to point me to this information: Is there a list somewhere of where the various auto plants are located, and what is built there? I know lots of "domestic" autos are made in Canada and Mexico, and lots of "import" cars are made in the USA...but if there were a list somewhere of "manufacturer A makes automobile B in city/state/country C" one could at least have a starting point to work from if they wanted to try to favor autos manufactured in this country.
Well, this doesn't list the city or state (or province for Canada or Mexico) but it is a current (last week's production data) list of all vehicles built in North America.
Enjoy:
http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA4676217.PDF
However, Georgia, seems to be losing assembly plants fast. GM and Ford have announced closing down major assembly plants in Atlanta. I think I read just a few weeks ago that vehicle assembly plants are now Alabama's #1 employeer.
I'd imagine that there are at least 40+ assembly plants in US. Actually, I think we still have one up the street from me. (they make the AVANTI). It's not a big selling brand though, Aahaha
Thanks for mentioning it. I thought those were oddly beautiful in their time.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
At least if I were to buy something tomorrow it'd probably be a Colorado pickup, which I know is made in Shreveport, LA, USA - so no identity complex there (unless you factor in the fact that this truck was originally engineered for Asian markets, but that adds a whole other layer of confusion to the mix!).
You and your friends keep saying this but there is no decline or loss of industry in the US auto market - it just moved. It's still here it just doesnt employ the same people. In fact the auto production in NA is 40% larger than it was in 1985. It's a fact, auto production is booming and you wont accept it.
I do recognize and have said many times here that there will be losses and dislocations in certain areas but other areas will benefit. Life here has always been this way since the Insustrial Revolution in the 1800's. There is nothing surprising to this. It has made us stronger because we've had to adjust and grow more creative. That is the strongest part of the American way of life. Nearly all of the major advances in the last 100 years have come from NA in the form of one person or small group taking a chance and changing the world. Think, Ford, Edison, Bell, General Electric, Wright Bros, Dell, IBM, Micsoft, Intel and on and on and on. Most started on a shoestring and America allowed them to succeed.
This will not change - unless you give up. Then you are lost but it's your choice.
I've changed entire careers and locals 3 times in my life and made more money each time in each new location. I meet the public everyday 4-5 times daily now and see their jobs and credit and family situations. Doom and gloom? Hardly. How about 'where can we invest in order to make money while we work at our regular jobs. There are so many examples of entrepaneurs going off on their own and making it big you can't imagine it. I see it because they bring their financials when they come to buy.
Ford and GM have one reason to exist - to make profits for their shareholders. Secondarily to be good citizens and care for their workers. but the shareholders are first. Both need to shrink in order to be more profitable. That's life.
"......am I more "American" for buying a..."
Ahhhh, crux of the matter. The answer to that question all depends on who you ask (and which manufacturer their family works for..).
The resource I'd love to see would be a listing, by individual model, of the % of domestic content. The resource I gave you was only the final assembly. It's very possible (probable?) that a vehicle assembled in Canada would have higher domestic content than one assembled in the U.S.
If country of origin is really important, I would do this: make a list of all vehicles in the class you are considering (in addition to the Colorado you might include the Tacoma, Nissan Frontier, and Dodge Dakota). Go to the dealerships and check the label on each to determine % of domestic content, source of engine/transmission, and place of final assembly.
Design - I wasn't aware that the Colorado was originally designed for the Asian market. Is it the same truck as sold overseas? I do know that the Tacoma was designed here in the U.S. (California) by Toyota's US division and I'm fairly sure the same can be said for the Frontier.
A couple of things about that:
-The content labeling on cars is one of "US/Canadian content". The auto industry of the two countries are so interconnected that you won't find a label seperating the two.
-The window sticker shows the point of assembly and where the engine was assembled.
-Automotive News' sales tables will also tell you whether a car is "domestic" or "imported" -- however, "domestic" includes both Canada and Mexico, which downplays the imported figure for the Big 2.5.
Yes, I know. This has always raised my hackles a bit. As far as I'm concerned the INTENT of a label should be to show what % of the parts are U.S. and what % are non-U.S.
The simple fact that it written so that Canadian parts were treated as 'domestic' while Japanese (or German) parts were imported was just a sop to the B2.5.
I probably didn't state myself well in the earlier post. My point was that it is possible for a car ASSEMBLED in either Canada or Mexico to have a higher 'domestic' parts content than a car assembled in the U.S. Unfortunately, the picture is muddied (further) since 'domestic' parts include those from beyond our border.
I thought the window sticker included point of origin for the transmission as well? Hmmm, learn something new everyday......
"however, "domestic" includes both Canada and Mexico, which downplays the imported figure for the Big 2.5."
Why do I get the feeling that if GM had been importing a few 100k units from a plant in Brazil when the laws were written, that Brazil would be included as a 'domestic' country?
Hadn't thought about % of domestic content, yet another layer to consider.
So while there's no clear determining factor, we've got to factor in at least the following:
1) Nationality of parent company
2) % of domestic content
3) Final assembly location
On the surface it would seem that #1 would limit us to Ford and GM (tradition would include Chrysler/Dodge, but technically...). If you then looked at item #3 and found those vehicles made by those companies manufactured within the U.S., and THEN from that list found those vehicles which have the greatest % of domestic content (and of course, we could argue about where to draw the line on content), you could say that whatever vehicles met those criteria could be considered "domestic."
But what about brands like Mazda? It's owned (100%??) by Ford, and the Mazda6 is manufactured in the US (but I don't know about domestic/foreign content). It could be more "American" to drive a Mazda6 than an Impala or a Silverado!
Rovert S. "Steve" Miller to the UAW :sick:
Rocky
Rocky
Being a huge GM fan, you would have loved the title of an article that appeared in the February 22, 2006 issue of AutoBeat Daily(The Daily Report For Automotive Executives).
It read the same as the subject of this post. Here's an excerpt from the article:
"With a new pricing strategy and several new products, General Motors Corp. is outperforming a weak U.S. market in early February sales, says the Power Information Network.
The dealer-based sales tracking system developed by J.D. Power and Associates estimates industry sales fell 8% through mid-month. But GM sales dropped just 1%--meaning its retail market share is creeping up--despite a 15% reduction in cash rebates year over year. Toyota's sales also declined by 1%; its rebate spending is down 19%."
"Honda was the only major carmaker to see higher sales. Buoyed by interest in its new Civic compact and Ridgeline pickup, its year-on-year sales are up 4%."
Unfortunately for GM, however, there was a separate article in the same edition of AutoBeat Daily which stated that Moody's has lowered GM's rating on $30 billion of their debt another rung to five below investment grade. This particular article described how a Delphi strike could devastate GM. If it were to end up being an extended strike, it could potentially push GM into bankruptcy.
Ron M.
Sounds like an excuse not to change. Noone's feet are cemented in place. I've done it after 25 yrs myself so I have little acceptance for anyone who wont also.
Americans have been uprooting themselves and moving eversince they first came here. We of all people are the most mobile and flexible and creative. The whole reason for coming to the US, and nearly all of our ancestors did, was to get away and get something better. Nothing has changed.
Noone is rooted in place.
Some say, but the big 2 1/2 builds cars and trucks in Mexico. Looking at the shape they are in, if they didn't, they would already be in bankruptcy. They have expenses that the Asian and European companies don't have and it puts them at a huge disadvantage.
Companies like Honda and Toyota are making many thousands of dollars more on a vehicle than American manufactures are. They are investing billions here, but they are sending many more billions out of the country that will help their economy, not ours. I have no doubt, if GM or Ford goes under, it will ripple all across this country in lost jobs out of the auto industry, and smaller raises for many more.
When an American plant closes, it hits the city it's in hard. Even if a foreign company came in a year later and took over the same plant, it wouldn't be the same. Most of these foreign plants aren't union and even if they are, the pay scale would be much lower, as they would be younger and would be new hires, that start at a much lower rate. If you have an person working for an American plant and is making $50,000 a year, he is paying a lot more taxes to the city, county, state and federal government than one working for a foreign automaker that is only paying $35-$40,000. a year.(Both figures could be higher).
That older employees working for an American firm has got 10-25-30 years in. He is making top pay. He is getting 4-5 weeks vacation. He is traveling over the country on planes, staying in hotels, buying furniture, campers,etc. He is buying more and spending more. Governments are taking in more tax dollars and when they do that, government employees get bigger raises. Airlines and furniture stores hire more people. That money filters back into the economy making more jobs for Americans. Giving them bigger raises. This doesn't even take in the billions of dollars in profit that American companies spend here. Unlike the billions that are sent out of the country by foreign firms. There was an old saying, said by a GM CEO, many years ago. It went something like this. As GM goes, so goes the Nation. Well it's not as true now as it was then, but it's still true. Foreign manufactures will not put back into this country what GM,Ford or even what Chrysler will.
You had better hope that it's not goodbye Chevy,Ford and Dodge. Because there will be a heck of a lot of Americans that will suffer from it. (See my post above)
I'd be the first to admit, that there were a lot of years America put out junk. I had a Pont.Phoenix that was one of them. But America has come a long way just in the last 5 years. Granted there are still some models that need improvement, but on a whole, American quality is way up from what it was only a few years ago. We have even moved ahead of the European cars and are ahead of some of the Japanese models in quality.
I would hope that the majority of Americans don't think as you do and write off ever buying American cars again. All that will do is hurt this country.
When I started working for one company in 1977 there were 750 total workers doing about $1 Billion in sales. When I retired in 1998 there were 175 employees doing just under $2 Billion in sales. This was one medium-sized company. Now multiply it by 1000 companies or 10000 companies all over N America. The automotie industry is not immune to increases in productivity.
Again... the automotive industry in NA is booming... it's 40% bigger than it was in 1985.
Life goes on. The 1950's adage about 'As GM goes...' just is no longer valid.
Your comments about 'foreign companies' not putting as much into the US as our Detroit brethren is also way off base. BTW Chrysler is the same as Honda or Hyundai.
When Ford builds a plant in Hermosillo and starts now a third shift - filling it to capacity - it does nothing for the US economy. When Hyundai fills a third shift in Alabama because the Sonata is growing by leaps and bounds or Toyota builds a new engine plant in Mich, this is good for our economy.
Kind of basic dont you think?
You make a good point. My FIL, retired from LTV when they went bankrupt 4 years ago or so. When he retired they were putting out double the tonnage of steel with 1/2 the workers when compared to the early 80's. This is why world wide manufacturing employment is shrinking. We simply are able to produce more per man hour.
BTW, not is all bad for US manufacturing. A good friend of mine is a supervisor for Cessna. We were BSing last night over a few beers talking about his job.
Currently, Cessna's backlog for business jets is longer now than it was pre-911. If you want to order a $10+ million Citation business jet, $500k down now and you'll see your plane sometime in 2008 and they are manufactured right here in Wichita, KS. They are assembled with union labor, and even though these guys are assembling $10-20 million jets, they don't get UAW wages/benefits. Top wage is about $24 with starting wages as low as $10 depending on your job class.
Guess who Cessna models their production quality processes after? Non other than Toyota. My buddy was sent to several Toyota plants to learn/observe how they achieve their quality and efficiency.
Isn't it ironic that many US businesses did not embrace good quality management (and management in general) from their own home-grown experts such as Deming and Juran. After WWII, US expert Deming went to Japan to help them improve their processes and quality. He was given much credit for Japan's quality successes in subsequent decades. They honored him by naming a Japan annual quality award in his name. I believe that Deming died sometime in the 90's. When US auto woke up in early 80's, realizing that Japan had caught and surpassed US auto quality, they tried to understand and implement some of his teachings.
When Ford builds a plant in Hermosillo and starts now a third shift - filling it to capacity - it does nothing for the US economy. When Hyundai fills a third shift in Alabama because the Sonata is growing by leaps and bounds or Toyota builds a new engine plant in Mich, this is good for our economy.
I beg to differ with you. Foreign automakers don't put anywhere near as much back into the American economy as America automakers or create as many jobs.
"•The domestic parts content for GM vehicles sold in North America is 82%. This means more jobs for Americans by American OWNED businesses. The profit stays in the U. S.
–Toyota Motor Company’s domestic parts content is under 36%; Lexus band is 3.4%. Using these foreign made auto parts provides jobs for more Japanese, not Americans. The profit for these parts stay in Japan!
•In the past 5 years, GM has invested over 20 billion in the U.S.
•GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product is about 4 times that of Toyota
•GM, Ford and DCX manufacturer 75% of all cars and trucks built in the United States
•The U.S. domestic auto manufacturers employ almost 90% of all American Auto Workers. The Big Three currently have about 470,000 direct employees in the United States , this is nearly 10 times as many as the Japanese transplants (49,000)
•For every 100 vehicles sold in the United States , approximately 23 jobs are provided - nearly twice as many as our Japanese counterparts"
http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa?forumID=9&threadID=27785
A few points:
-I highly doubt that GM or Ford will go under. The stockholders and the US government won't allow it to happen. But the companies may change, and anyone even casually observing knows that they are in dire need of change.
-In any case, I don't what this means. I don't profit at all because GM is building Buicks in China and selling them to the Chinese. These cars could have been built in the US and exported in order to generate American jobs (both directly and indirectly through assembly, suppliers, etc.), create tax revenues for the US government, increase US GDP and reduce the trade deficit. But with GM's current plans, the only beneficiaries are GM's stockholders and upper management.
As it stands, the average American, IRS and the US economy will be better off if some company -- any company -- builds stuff using US-made parts and American labor. Where that company is headquartered is completely irrelevant to how we get the benefits.
As GM goes, so goes the Nation
That's simply a lie. If I worked at GM, I would want you to believe that, of course, but this economy is not rooted solely in the success of GM.
I've provided this info elsewhere on this board, but it bears repeating -- more than half of GM's car production is outside the US or Canada. It is increasing production in Asia while reducing it in the US and Canada. It is hiring people abroad while reducing its US payrolls.
GM is not your friend, it is just a business out to serve its interests. It is not an "American" company, it is a multinational that has loyalty to NO nation. It is rapidly working to move more of its production abroad to low-wage nations, and would fire every American it could if it had a chance.
The best hopes for the US are companies such as Toyota and Honda, which are perfectly happy to build cars with American parts and American workers if they can achieve high quality and serve their customers. They possess far greater vision than do the beancounters that dominate companies such as GM, that see workers as an unpleasant expense item on the income statement.
If your goal is to support GM, then I'd start learning Mandarin, because that's where GM is placing its bets, not here.
http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/content/db/b-db-autos.shtml
-If GM and Ford would build new plants in the US, instead of in China and Mexico, then they would be offered similar packages. But since they outsource what they can, don't expect them to be offered anything by Kentucky or any other American state.
-When GM was choosing sites for the Saturn plant, it was offered similar packages. Again, it would get more offers in the US for the same thing if it was actually interested in building new US facilities.
-Your obviously biased source doesn't mention:
**The number of people employed by the plant in Kentucky
**The value of US parts needed for assembly in that plant. (For example, a Camry built in Kentucky includes 80% of US/Canadian content, a greater quantity than a Mexican-built Ford Fusion or a Chrysler 300.)
**The US suppliers who benefit from the sale of those parts to TMC
**The taxes paid by the American workers and the suppliers
**The residual benefit of the various businesses and communities gained by having more employed in high wage jobs
Why do you think that the people of Kentucky would want new manufacuturing in their state? What would they have done with that land and those unemployed people had Toyota not come along to help them? One thing we know for sure -- GM and Ford sure aren't going to lift a finger to help.
Of course, GM is a world automaker. They make cars like Volvo and Jagquire?, etc. that is made and mostly sold over seas. They are selling more cars abroad than they sell in America, which counts for the layoff here. Because Asian automakers sell more cars here than America automakers sell here.
Many Americans have come to believe it makes no difference if you buy American or foreign cars made here, it's all the same. We buy and put on foreign made parts and so do they. True, but it's not anywhere near equal.
Be real. Do you think GM could sell cars made here to the Chinese? Do you have any idea of the average Chinese salary? They make them there because they can build them cheaper there and sell them.
I agree, GM wants the benefits of lower labor costs, lower distribution costs, and the inevitable joint venture agreements that China will require for foreign companies to play ball in its economy.
That's all great for GM, and the stockholders of GM, so I understand why GM wants to do it. It just doesn't squat for the American worker or consumer.
The American economy gets nothing out of GM's Chinese business. The American worker gets nothing out of GM's Chinese business. The US treasury gets nothing out of GM's Chinese business.
Ask yourself a question: Which company is more likely to increase its American payrolls, GM or Toyota?
The obvious answer -- Toyota. GM is shifting out of the US, away from US production, with an eye to reduce its US workforce and US tax obligations.
Toyota is doing the exact opposite. Who cares where the mail to the corporate offices goes?