Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

1269270272274275382

Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Bilateral...bahahaha. That's funny. We've engaged in trade surrender with China.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    then came the HELOCs to buy SUVs and Harleys and poorly made watercraft. These people should have their incomes garnished for eons.

    Here in DC a lot of those Hummers were being vandalized when the economy tanked. Funny.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "then came the HELOCs to buy SUVs and Harleys and poorly made watercraft. These people should have their incomes garnished for eons. "...

    And they will, until they call me, and do a Chapter 7...ain't it grand???... :blush:;) :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    And they will, until they call me, and do a Chapter 7...ain't it grand???...

    Well, those that have incomes to garnish, that is. Lots of people took out their home equity and then got hit with the triple whammy of their investment portfolio tanking, home value taking a plunge, and losing their job on top of it all! :sick:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    So in other words, your meal ticket is subsidized by our poor economic policy :P

    I bet you do a land office business though, looks like plenty of people living above their means (based on average incomes) in that area.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Even funnier that I don't have a problem with that :shades:

    That brand represents everything that was/is wrong with America.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "So in other words, your meal ticket is subsidized by our poor economic policy"...

    Actually, no...my income comes from those who did not manage their money successfully...I place much blame on the individual, who took out the HELOC to buy a motor home, not the banker or the govt who made the loan easy for him to get...

    But, in all fairness, they may not actually have much blame...the vast majority of my clients were living within their means and then something happened they could not anticipate, like
    1. loss of overtime
    2. loss of hours under 40/week
    3. loss of job
    4. spouse loss of job

    Let's face it...they borrowed money to buy a home, and you must assume that you will continue to have a job (very few folks can buy a home or a car for cash)...so they went into reasonable debt (or unreasonable debt if they bought a house they simply could not afford) and then had job problems...

    After watching real estate go UP in value for 50-plus years, I could understand how folks thought that their "home appreciation" would give them the future equity (wealth) they sought...

    I saw the real estate problem coming, sort of, but folks thought I was nuts...I simply believed that a condo that sold for $50K could not realistically be worth half a million in 3 years, but folks in Florida did not see it that way...another way to say it is that trees do not grow to the sky...

    After all, if every piece of land was worth a million bucks, just who was going to buy these plots of land on incomes under $100K yearly?

    What I saw was that real estate values would stop going up, but I never thought I would see them drop like they have...

    A client brought me their tax assessment...last year their house was given a FMV (fair market value) of $65,000...this year, 2012, the FMV is $22,500...and this is from the tax assessor who has a vested interest in FMVs as high as possible...not the 40% assessed value for taxes, but they are saying that the FMV of the home that last year was $65K (probably close to $100K in 2007-2008) is now $22,500...

    A friend whose house was worth $250K in 2007-2008 (the "top" of the market) is now FMV at $110K, and he bought it in 1994 at $120K...

    When you stop and look at it, there is really no intrinsic reason why used home values should climb over the last half century while EVERYTHING else we buy depreciates...cars, furniture, appliances, etc are all worth much less 2-3 years after purchase, yet the world thought that real estate should go up over time...WHY???...I mean, really, WHY???...just because it DID does not mean that it was reasonable...

    Just like folks thpought the Nasdaq would rise forever in the dotcom boom, and it did hit 5200...and then it crashed, taking with it $5 trillion in wealth...but it's rise made no sense, as all those companies were just electronic myths, with no assets, no sales and no revenues...and certainly no profits...yet everybody thought they would go to the moon...

    Real estate is now simply the purchase of a place to live, and it will drop in value the older it gets, just like a car or your TV or your furniture...

    There is no intrinsic reason for it to increase in value if it is older and more used and worn...and that is the reality for homes in the next 50 years...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited June 2012
    Florida got got hard.

    Some people timed it well. My dad and sister both bought foreclosed homes, each for only a little over half what the previous owner paid. Plus my sis' loan is like free money. Interest rates are ridiculously low.

    My little brother is upside down, I think, but not too badly. He put 20% down and basically lost that.

    He wasn't in over his head, so he's OK, but he would not recover his equity if he sold it now.
  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    By the number of posting your business must be slow????

    The American car guys are shrinking quickly with every foreign assembly plt constructed in the USA..They are being marginalized at an alarming rate.. As stated earlier I spent 34 yrs in the supplier role to GM, Ford, Chrysler, and AMC, along with many forged and cast iron components used on military vehicles..Retired in 2002 due to a family illness, no other option, was asked to return by several suppliers in 2005, one went bellyup in 2009 and the other ones have survived barely..

    Nissan is not in my sights, too Frenchy for me, Hyundai/Kia are out in left field, Toyota and Honda are okay, BMW, Audi, Benz, and Porsche are all on the nice list..

    I find it too easy to buy a new car, and really the only search is in the Mustang GT area, 2011 and later, new or very low mileage..Most of the fun is negotiating price, and the hunt for the bargain..After 53 cars, there isn't too much thrill left!!!!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you don't need the V8 burble (which admittedly sounds awesome), the Focus ST will start at just $24,495 delivered:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/25/2013-ford-focus-st-first-drive-review/

    Made in the USA and a bargain.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    But you make something due to the under-regulated markets encouraged by both sides of the aisle. Money management is only part of it, in a society where the FIRE industries have an input in all facets of life, and few K-12 systems indulge in any kind of fiscal education - no doubt because of direction from said industries. If someone is never taught that a mortgage of 10x household income is a bad idea, they will go along with it. With that, you get GA, and my friend near you who has a 60K house that sold for 175K in 2007 (and has finishes about half as nice as my less than luxurious apartment).

    But I do agree with your thoughts about housing in general, and what a mess it has made of the American landscape - with a few cashing in from it at the expense of society in general. That's how we do socialism here.
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    edited June 2012
    A friend whose house was worth $250K in 2007-2008 (the "top" of the market) is now FMV at $110K, and he bought it in 1994 at $120K...

    Same story here in Orlando. My house appraised for $310K in 2006, purchase price was $105K in 1995. I didn't need to refinance up to the $310K, just about $170K (kids were just starting college). The loan officer was literally begging me to take another $100K. If I had taken it, I would have been one of those that walked away from their house. My neighbor is currently doing that, she hasn't made a mortgage payment since May 2009, the bank has already foreclosed, but they aren't evicting her yet.

    Hmmm, doing the math, 3 years of no mortgage payments living rent free, and also not paying property taxes, that's about $60K.

    I'd be lucky to get $100K for my house now if I was selling. I owe just a little more so there's no sense in walking away now.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    Same story here, in Maryland. There's a house in my neighborhood that went on the market back in 2003 for $142K. I looked at it with my realtor, and she said don't give them any more than $100K, because it was pretty thoroughly trashed.

    Well, someone else paid asking for it, tried to flip it, but was so slow in fixing it up that he didn't sell it until late 2007. For $375,000! So, that might have been worth the wait.

    Those people got foreclosed on last fall, and it ultimately got short-saled for about $153K. Two women bought it. I went back there a couple months ago to say hi, and welcome them to the neighborhood, etc. They showed me through it. Alas, it had been trashed again, and this time looked even worse than it did back in '03. That home flipper cut a lot of corners and essentially did the "lipstick on a pig" routine. But those people back there trashed it pretty righteously, so they didn't help things!

    I had paid $84K for my condo back in 1994. Sold it in 2004 for $185K. It sold again in 2007 for $245K. But, last time I looked, a similar unit like mine was on the market for about $150K, and I've seen some smaller ones pop on occasion for less...one was only $92K.

    Needless to say, I don't think too many people are going to be pulling out home equity to buy un-needed cars, trucks, and other toys like they did in the past.

    And, I guess I should confess, that I used some home equity to buy my '76 LeMans and my 2000 Park Ave. But neither of those was all that expensive, and I made sure to pay extra every month, to get the balance back down.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I've always felt that one of the big reasons why real estate and banking seem to be at the heart of our economic blow ups is that real estate is over incentivized by the tax system. It seems that whenever Congress gets the bright idea to use the tax code to steer economics, it backfires with unintended consequences. It's not just the price of the houses that get inflated unreasonably, but also most anything related to it. The price of things like replacement doors and windows or flooring is ridiculous based on what you get for the dollar, but Americans have it in their head (thanks to realtors and the tax code) that their house is an "investment", so they get reckless with spending for things related to it. Then there is the misguided realtor and banker line about housing and "tax deductibility". Nevermind that if your incremental tax bracket is 28%, you are still paying the bank most of the the remaining 72% in interest on newer mortgages - cash that can't be used elsewhere. Principal on 30 year mortgages build up little reduction over the first third of that time period, and many people sell their home every 6-10 years. Banks seldom hold the mortgage, the pawn it off on the gov (Fannie Mae, etc.) after collecting their fees. Little risk, big cash turnover the more they push through. Basic economics - when something gets overvalued, eventually it comes tumbling down - you just can't predict precisely when. Oh, and then there is the simplemindedness of many home buyers leveraging themselves with as much home "investment" as they can, forgetting the cash flow impact of taxes and maintenance. It's all no wonder we are in yet another housing and banking debacle.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Houses - the never ending "Cash for Clunkers"?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    He's got a point...I feel like a lot of the energy efficient stuff, like insulation, went up in price when the government offered incentives on them.

    For me any purchase has to make economic sense. We did switch to a solar energy supplier but only because our rates went down.

    In fact I wonder how long that party will last...how much of that savings comes from a subsidy that is not sustainable? Makes you wonder...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Happy Canada Day neighbors (slightly belated for those on Eastern or Atlantic or Newfoundland Time) - here's one for those of us in the US with the 4th coming right up.

    Cars to celebrate Americana (Detroit News)

    Featuring one of the most influential designs of the '60s, the '61 Lincoln Continental.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I agree. The 1961-65 Lincoln Continental is a timeless design and what a Lincoln most definitely should be. Ford should seriously revisit this car when designing future Lincolns. The 1961-65 Lincoln was the car of world leaders and captains of industry. Today's Lincoln is more like what Mercury was in the 1960s and 1970s.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "But you make something due to the under-regulated markets encouraged by both sides of the aisle"...

    I earn my living because people, for whatever reason, have taken on too mucg debt and simply cannot pay it...since we don't have Debtors' Prisons anymore, and the Founders put the concept of bankruptcy right into the Constitution, they created a way to walk away from the debt rather than weigh down future generations with unpayable debt...

    However they got that way does not matter to me...I agree, as a citizen, that many folks should not have been granted mortgages on houses they could not afford from Day 1...and those stupid bankers who pleaded with folks to take out more loans "against the rising equity of their homes", regardless of whether they could afford it or not...dumb, dumb, dumb...

    I believe that they should not guide social policy with tax policy...take away ALL deductions, that means mortgage interest, church & Red Cross donations, medical bills, all of it...then drop the tax rate to one or two rates, like 8% and 15%, and fill out your taxes on a postcard like Rick Perry wanted to do...I REALLY want a consumption tax WITHOUT an income tax, so that EVERYBODY pays it, drug dealers, illegals, elderly, welfare, unemployed, foreign tourists, etc.

    Restore personal privacy, dump the IRS for individuals (a few agents will be needed to monitor the collected sales tax, maybe 10 agents per state) and keep the govt out of our lives...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    have taken on too mucg debt and simply cannot pay it

    I thought something like 50% of individual bankruptcy filings these days were because of medical bills. Be curious to see if that percentage goes way down after 2014 when most of the Affordable Car Act gets implemented (assuming the pols don't repeal it).

    Be careful about wishing for that VAT. You might get it (and not get rid of the 1040 though, lol).

    Most American car? The Camry has passed the F-150 for the #1 spot, per Cars.com.

    What Are the Top American-Made Cars?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,698
    >if that percentage goes way down after 2014 when most of the Affordable Car Act gets implemented

    Since the Affordable Care Act has nothing to do with making healthcare less costly (across state line insurance sales, lawsuit reform, more doctors and better payment schedules for doctors unlike the builtin reductions in payments for Medicaid and Medicare), the changes will only make medical services cost much, much more by the time 2014's provisions are implemented. And there will be fewer doctors accepting Medicaid and Medicare out of the doctors who are left. Only those getting free care will have cheaper healthcare, but it won't be as good and efficient as now--not will it be for the rest of us paying for all the rest.

    >Be careful about wishing for that VAT. You might get it (and not get rid of the 1040

    Ohio did the same thing a few decades back by implementing the ability of local school districts to impose an earnings tax. It was intended by legislators to replace property tax levies. Instead, the school districts started adding earnings taxes without reducing or replacing the property tax portion of their support monies. Exactly what would happen under the current or both federal legislatures were VAT to be implemented. Or for that, even a flat tax. They would probably sever out parts of the taxes to be replaced but keep other of the old taxes.

    >Most American car?

    Does that include verification of ownership and all parts from the suppliers?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    What I hear is that health care costs have already been falling, but that's another argument for another forum. :-)

    "Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts come from and whether the car is assembled in the U.S. We disqualify models with a domestic parts content rating below 75 percent, models built exclusively outside the U.S. or models soon to be discontinued without a U.S.-built successor."
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,698
    edited July 2012
    >What I hear is that health care costs have already been falling, but that's another argument for another forum.

    Which forum? Let's reopen the Obama Blunders forum and rename it?
    Our costs have gone up 15% and 20% last two years.
    http://www.humanevents.com/2012/06/30/wsj-chief-economist-75-of-obamacare-costs-- will-fall-on-backs-of-those-making-less-than-120k-a-year/

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    Not here please - I was thinking more along the lines of Townhall or DebatePolitics.

    We're a car site. ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,698
    Got it.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "I thought something like 50% of individual bankruptcy filings these days were because of medical bills."

    I can't speak for others liars lawyers, but I would place my folks at under 25% for med bills, but GA may have more folks surrendering homes they bought for $300K that are worth under $150K, and they can't afford the $300K mortgage payments anyway...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    And how many are driving flashy new American cars?

    And how many agree to keep making the payments on their car after the banko? :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Just because your ride was popped doesn't mean you're off the hook. If you beat the heck out of the car or it depreciated like a rock and you didn't have a large down-payment and/or shorter terms, you can be on the hook for the difference between what the repo company got at auction and what you still owe.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Marsh - Totally agree with your income tax approach. Simplicity, fairness and maintains some traditional progressivity. Won't happen though because Congrress uses the tax code for philisophical purposes and to reward large contributors. Not so sure on VAT. The US is a heavily consumer focused economy and I'm not sure this approach will enhance things here. I also think VAT may hurt the auto business in America. First, even though the loss of income tax will increase increase consumer disposable income, I'm concerned that a 15% or so VAT increase in vehicle prices may reduce demand psychology, or at least cause consumers to move downward in vehicle hurting manufacturing margins. Second, since VAT is generally applied at various stages in the purchasing and manufacturing proceess, I'm thinking it would drive auto manufacturing (domestic and transplant) out of the country because it would increase costs. The biggest danger I see is that during income tax reform Congress slips in a national sales tax disguised as VAT and we all know how sales tax seems to have a limitless upward trajectory over time. I also see them dumping stuff on the states, thereby raising local taxes.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "And how many agree to keep making the payments on their car after the banko?"

    It depends...many do reaffirm the car if the car is in good shape and they are not too far upside down, so they will reaffirm the debt to be able to go to work, assuming they have a job...now, if they bought a clunker at a Buy Here, Pay Here lot, and paid $10K for an $8K car, with an interest rate of 25%, and the car is now worth $4K, but they still owe, say, $8K, and the transmission blows and they need $3,000 to fix the tranny, the best bet is to surrender the car in bankruptcy and let the dealer deal with it...

    berri: I am not advocating a VAT, as it is hidden and applied at multiple levels...I am referring to a simple national retail sales tax, applied at the final point of purchase when the consumer buys it retail...no tax is paid from the manufacturer up to the reailer, but the retailer is the one who collects the single layer of tax from the consumer, so everybody knows up front how much tax is being paid...MAJOR POINT: the retail sales tax REPLACES the income tax entirely, so that your gross pay is you net pay...if you earn $500 per week, you take home $500 per week, not $375 "after taxes"...their are no "after taxes", your employer saves the bookkeeping by not having to withhold any taxes from your check...and the retailers only have to write 1-2 checks monthly to the govt to pay the collected sales tax...so, any employer does no withholding, no social security matching, and sends all the collected tax to the govt 1-2X monthly...and if the company is in manufacturing or any level under retail, they pay no sales tax at all, since they do not collect it...

    How easy is that? and, as always, the reatil tax is paid by you, me, the drug dealer, the illegal immigrant, the Japanese tourist, and anyone who buys anything at a store....and we reduce the IRS to 1/20th its size, because they only have to audit the stores for sales tax, as any money we earn is NOT taxed when we earn it but when we spend it, so, whether we make cash under the table or not does not matter, because our income is no longer the business of the govt and we regain major privacy back, something we have lost in the last 50 years...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Guess I should have said "GST" instead of "VAT", but all the Canada Day excitement got me confused.

    Let's see, GST in Canada is what, 15%? Maybe a Canadian can explain GST and HST. Last I looked they still have an income tax and that provides the bulk of government revenue. Still seems to be a nice place to live in spite of the tax burden though.

    They are having trouble with other North Americans though - "More auto production occurs in Mexico now than in Canada, even though Canada’s market is larger."

    The case against Made in Canada manufacturing (Toronto Star)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Interesting concept. I presume it would apply to real estate dealings, rentals and services? How would it apply to financial deals such as stock and bond purchases? I'm guessing charged when you buy, but not when you sell? This will probably be its sticking point in Congress.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The sticking point in Congress will be the inability to put in loopholes.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    NEVER underestimate Congress's ability to create loopholes!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Cars.com's American-Made Index gauges how American a car is on a model-by-model basis, but there are lots of other ways to determine just how American a car is. If you look at raw employment figures, Detroit automakers have a larger footprint in the U.S. than do their foreign-owned competitors — but competition is closing the gap.

    Start with the big picture: U.S. assembly and supplier plants employ some 770,000 Americans, according to seasonally adjusted figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. That's up from fewer than 625,000 at the bottom of the recession, but it pales in comparison to pre-recession figures, when the industry employed more than 1 million.
    Ads by Google

    2013 Ford TaurusCompare the 2013 Ford Taurus. Expert Tested. Exclusive Offers. www.ford.com/cars/taurus/compare/
    2012 Honda PilotLearn more about the redesigned 2012 Pilot. The SUV. Made better. www.Honda.com

    When you factor in those who sell cars, you're talking even more Americans, and that lets brands with no U.S. manufacturing presence still claim a piece of the pie. The BLS reports new- and used-car dealers employ nearly 1.1 million Americans, and it's a more stable source of jobs, fluctuating between 1 million and 1.25 million for most of the past 10 years.

    Detroit Three vs. Japanese Three: 181,000 to 67,000
    Car dealerships and suppliers often sell cars or furnish parts for multiple automakers. Take them out of the equation, and Detroit automakers have the clear lead in direct employment — at assembly, drivetrain, stamping, casting and tooling plants, research and design facilities, U.S. headquarters, testing grounds and the like. GM spokesman Fred Ligouri says GM employs 77,000 Americans. Chrysler's U.S. employment totals 39,200. Ford declined to provide numbers, but the American Automotive Policy Council, a group that represents the Detroit Three, says the Dearborn, Mich., automaker employs about 65,000.

    Combined, that's more than 2.5 times the number of employees that Toyota, Nissan and Honda – the three largest Japanese automakers in the U.S. — employ. Toyota spokeswoman Carly Schaffner says Toyota employs more than 30,000 Americans, up from 29,089 in 2011. Honda has "just north of 26,000" at its U.S. operations, says spokesman Ed Miller. Nissan's U.S. operations employ 10,380 across six states. Hyundai-Kia employs 7,800, according to two spokesmen for the Korean automaker.

    It's no wonder the AAPC says that the Detroit Three employ two out of every three autoworkers in the U.S. Indeed, Michigan — home to 38 light-duty auto plants, all partly or wholly owned by the Detroit Three — employs 136,400 automotive workers, according to BLS. The next closest state is Ohio, which has 14 Detroit Three and four Honda plants, with 75,900 autoworkers there.

    "We're certainly never going to deny that [the Detroit Three] are global companies in a global marketplace," says AAPC President Matt Blunt. "But they're certainly performing above what one would expect in the United States in terms of employment, in terms of parts, in terms of capital investment."

    Others Catching Up
    Competitors are catching up. Consider the past decade alone: Miller says Honda "had about 25,000 [or] 26,000" on its U.S. payrolls in the early 2000s, while Schaffner says Toyota employed 30,100 in 2002. That represents roughly even employment over the decade — or, more realistically, recovered momentum since the recession. In 2007, the year before U.S. auto sales went into free fall, Toyota employed nearly 37,000.

    Contrast that with the Detroit Three, whose employment may never recover to pre-recession levels. The Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich., says employment at GM, Ford and Chrysler has risen slightly since 2009, but in the early 2000s, the three automakers employed more than double what they do today. In 2001, Ligouri notes, some 168,000 worked at GM alone.

    "The Detroit Three have two-thirds of the assembly plants that they had five years ago," says Kristin Dziczek, who directs CAR's Labor and Industry group. As a result, however, Detroit automakers have "a very sharp upward trend in productivity at the same time. So the reinvestment, which has been huge, has really pushed productivity to very high levels."

    That's a point AAPC likes to make. The group says that Detroit Three automakers use fewer workers per car assembled, but they employ more overall because of marketing, finance, research and development and other efforts.

    Of course, foreign-owned carmakers claim plenty of U.S. investment in product development, too. Toyota says its U.S. operations include five R&D centers and two design facilities. Honda's Miller reckons the automaker's U.S. development facilities employ "several thousand." And Nissan's U.S. design and technical centers have shaped the Altima, Maxima, Xterra and Frontier.

    Global Automakers, a trade group that represents Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai-Kia, Subaru and several foreign-owned niche brands, argues its member companies invested $40.2 billion in the U.S. in 2011. "Last year we produced 34 percent of the 8.7 million vehicles built in the U.S.," spokeswoman Caroline DeLaney says. "That's still a significant portion."

    AAPC's Blunt accepts their contributions.

    "We really do welcome foreign competition," he says. "We certainly welcome foreign direct investment, and when Americans get a job working for a foreign automaker, that's great for the community."

    But Blunt maintains it's not as much the contributions from Chrysler — the smallest Detroit automaker, which is controlled by Italy's Fiat — let alone GM or Ford.

    "Ford by itself and GM by itself — the fact that they're purchasing alone as many auto parts as all of the Japanese auto companies combined, that's really a pretty telling statistic," he says.

    Down the Road
    Will employment from foreign-owned automakers ever catch up to domestic automakers? After slashing jobs and cutting production, Detroit carmakers are back in the black. Last spring, GM posted its ninth consecutive quarter of profits, and Ford posted its 11th. Chrysler is on track to outpace its 2011 profits by eight times this year. CAR estimates the Detroit Three will have nearly 200,000 Americans on their payrolls by 2015. That's up more than 20,000 from 2011.

    Foreign-owned automakers are adding to their ranks, too. Toyota added 2,000 jobs at a Mississippi plant to build the Corolla compact. Hyundai spokesman Miles Johnson says U.S. employment at Hyundai alone will increase 20 percent this year.

    But CAR's Dziczek doesn't see the overall gap closing anytime soon.

    "I don't think in five years it changes radically from what it is," she says. "There's not a lot of talk about opening up new [foreign-owned] capacity."
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The administration filed a complaint alleging unfair duties on more than $3 billion worth of vehicles imported into China from US makers. Over 80 percent of U.S. exports to China are subject to high duties. In particular, GM and Chrysler vehicles are subject to 12.9 percent and 8.8 percent "anti-dumping duties" in reaction to our government's bailout and support of said automakers. China says that this government interaction is illegal under WTO rules."

    U.S. Files Complaint Against China with World Trade Organization (Straightline)
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I am not sure, but I would hate to have the whole idea shelved because I do not have an answer to that...my tax plan would be under one page, the current is over, what, 20,000 pages???...and no one understand the one we have...so, if a few flaws show up in my plan, we can literally make exceptions or a rule for that situation, but the general idea is good...

    Thinking out loud, services would either be all exempt, or simply all taxed the same...a doctor's visit at $90 would be taxed, say, at 7%...why such a problem???...same with plumbers and roofers...

    Rentals...you mean like a car rental???...so Hertz and Avis collect tax on their rentals...what is the problem???

    real estate would either be exempt, taxed at a lower rate (one simple exception could be real estate sales taxed at 3%) or taxed at the full rate like everything else...remember, you are not paying any taxes from your check, so your gross is your net...so you are not paying your mortgage with your old "take home" income, you now pay it and buy real estate with your gross income, so why not tax the sale, itself???

    It may take a little "mind-changing" but that is only because we have had this income tax on all of us, with withholding, since WWII, so we are "accustomed" to it...we could easily become accustomed to paying no tax at our employers, and simply paying it at the cash register...
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Add a page for each exemption, and then when you factor in all the lobbies and PACs that want exemptions, you've got a pretty long and loophole-ridden bill.

    Heck they can't even tax straight income the same way for everyone, there's a scale, and certain income gets treated differently (interest income, investment income, etc).

    It's a nice idea, but to think it could ever be implemented with a simple wave of the wand, no way. Not going to happen. Some....body managed to put the IRS into the Constitution, we're stuck with it.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    write a tax code, even allowing for some special circumstances and alterations, in under 3-5 pages..the exceptions are few, and the code is simple...

    It would only take one line of type to repeal the code we have...:):):)

    Nobody can tell me with a straight face that the code we have is preferable to the one I propose...if the IRS cannot understand the current code, and they enforce it, then what we have is simply an abomination, and to say "Let's keep it because we are used to it" is a ridiculous statement to make...I say "Let's scrap it because it is incomprehensible"

    The best part of the sales tax is that the tax base is now expanded to include EVERYBODY WHO BUYS ANYTHING AT RETAIL, which includes every consumer except those who live by barter...and just because we don't receive tax on someone who barters is no reason to not consider it, because we don't receive income tax now on someone who barters...

    For the 48% that pay no income tax, that is a travesty, to live in this nation and pay nothing at all...for the poor who don't buy much, they would pay very little...if raw food is untaxed, but processed food is taxed, the poor who buy necessities would pay little tax, but the "poor" who live on potato chips and cookies would pay tax...what is wrong with that???
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    I can just hear the curb-stoners now. "Tell you what, you buy my Malibu for $10,000 (wink/nudge) and I'll collect tax on that and that's the price we'll put on the bill of sale. The other $4,000 you'll leave in cash in an envelope on my back step."

    If the IRS would enforce and collect existing taxes owed, we'd be flush and really could afford to dial back on the income tax. But no one wants to pay for the salaries of the tax collectors.

    Anyone tire-kicking American cars?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I'm considering the Dodge Dart at this point. Built in America by a (semi) American company, with a much bigger gas tank than the 2L soda bottle Ford is using in the Focus. :)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Not a new GL?

    "Mercedes-Benz will officially kick off production of the redesigned 2013 GL-Class at its Alabama factory this week, another milestone for the facility that launched the state's auto industry.

    The luxury full-sized sport utility vehicle, which is entering its second generation, accounts for roughly 35 percent of the output at the German automaker's 2,800-employee plant in the Tuscaloosa County town of Vance."

    New Benz rolls out (al.com)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    edited July 2012
    I do 110 miles a day. I need something that gets good highway MPGs. That means a Focus or Dart (since the Snuze doesn't have the HP to hang on the interstate). Unless I go SkyActiv, and since I generally prefer hatches, that's a possibility.

    Ford really screwed up with that tiny 12 gallon gas tank. What were they thinking? That won't even go 450 miles, most cars have a 500 mile tank these days, and the Dart can do 600 depending on the engine/tranny combo....for which yes, the amount of selections is overkill.

    Let's see, we have a 2.0L Hyundai-descended engine with a 6 speed manual or a 6 speed Hyundai-sourced automatic...same one as in the Elantra and the Veloster Turbo, and I wasn't impressed with it in the Elantra. Those trannies also go into the 2.4L variant, which has 180 HP/174 lb/ft, or somewhere around there. I'm thinking the Hyundai slushbox will really blunt that. The 160 HP/180 lb/ft engine gets a manual 6 speed DCT, which means a lot less parasitic loss than a slushbox. That powertrain may actually put more power to the wheels than the 2.4l/Automatic setup. Heck, even if they put down the same HP, the smaller engine has more torque, and it's available lower down too. Very interesting combination.

    And it makes me ask Dodge the same thing I've been asking Mazda since they brought out SkyActiv on the 3: you have a "midrange" engine that's clearly superior to the other two engines you're offering...wouldn't it save some money to drop some of them? Speaking of Mazda, I wish they had sourced a SKyActiv slushbox instead of the Hyundai one. It'd probably be more in keeping with Dodge's image anyway, and Fiat and Mazda are already partnering up on some things.

    Wouldn't that be something? An American car from an Italian car company with Japanese innards? :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    Ford really screwed up with that tiny 12 gallon gas tank. What were they thinking?

    Saves a little bit of weight (better mpg rating), leaves more space for other stuff, and the size may be limited by where they place the tank, for safety reasons.

    Hyundai having a few problems with consumer perceptions about the mpg claims on Elantras. Haven't looked to see which engine or drivetrain combo may be generating most of the complaints.

    How about a Chinese car from an American car company with ... well, that's about as far as it would go eh?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think it might be some of this overdoing the Euro stuff at Ford. That tank may work on the diesels which are popular over there. I think that many of these compact cars don't get their EPA mileage, just like with small crossovers. I've gotten mid thirties on the current Camry on Interstate type driving and a well equipped LE model is only maybe 2 grand more than a compact (which you'll probably get most of back in trade). It will probably be the same with the new Altima and some of the other bigger 4 bangers. Go for the comfort on those long trips bpizzuti!
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Mazda and Ford do seem to make their numbers. Chevy just misses I think. It's just Hyundai having so much trouble because they tend to miss them pretty badly. Don't know yet if Dodge will.
  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    Small gas tanks, less weight=better mileage..you think???

    Just a passing thought....no offense...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I saw in the Detroit paper that Ford is already recalling 10K new 2013 Escapes for posssible carpet interference with the accelerator peddle. Hopefully no conspiracy theories will evolve like when it happened to Toyota.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Smaller gas tanks only equal less weight when the larger gas tank is filled all the way. If both tanks are filled to 12 gallons they weigh the same. :shades:

    At least with a larger tank one retains the option of carrying more gas. Ford needs a gas can with a special nozzle anyway. And does anyone know if the EPA fills all tanks to full during their tests, or just fills them all with the same amount of gas?
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.