Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

bpizzuti

"Oh they look nothing alike. You see, one has a swoosh and the other doesn't, completely different, no theft or copying involved anywhere, none at all, and if you insist on making unfounded accusations to our honest Chinese car manufacturers we cordially invite you to leave our country and not make any money anymore, so sorry."

There's a reason the government there won't let anyone do business in the country unless they partner with a local company. A photocopier is a lot cheaper than an R&D division. It's kind of sad, because the Chinese ARE smart, and are very capable of innovating on their own.

lemko

"Chinese Car / German Bike"

Whoa! Too bad Edmunds doesn't have a "Like" button! This would be the Post of the Day!

ateixeira

Yup, like a bad copy, even inside:

http://paultan.org/2007/04/23/chery-t11-tiggo-for-rm80292/

That's the Malaysian market one.

I bet the glass is interchangeable. Heck, they probably started by making aftermarket replacement parts for the RAV4, and then just started producing their own clone.

I'm sure it drive Toyota's lawyers mad.

bpizzuti

I doubt the lawyers get any say. It's all in the hands of the accountants. The Chinese government has basically figured out how to blackmail people into letting them steal.

Kind of like Wall Street. :sick:

robr2

juice - a copy is a copy: meaning exact. The entire front clip is different.

It may be the same underneath for all I know but you can't really expect me to believe those two cars are exact from those photos.

IMHO there is some inspiration there but it's not exact. I'm not saying that inspiration is good but it's a bit of a stretch to call the Twiggo a "COPY" of the RAV 4.

fintail

No Chinese copies are "exact" down to the last mm, but the Chery is a RAV4 clone. I can't see how this can be debated. Something doesn't have to be flawless to be a copy.

More that aren't exact down to the last mm copies, but are still copies (found in literally 10 seconds):

ateixeira

juice - a copy is a copy: meaning exact. The entire front clip is different.

In that case they face-lifted the original copy.

Check out the profile, the windows are a copy, they even look interchangeable.

In person you do a double-take. It's a RAV4, oh wait, the badges...

lemko

Here's a Chinese copycat of a Lincoln Town Car. Look closely, if you dare!

fintail

Freaky. I have never seen that one before. It's like a TC from a parallel universe.

ateixeira

I bet if a bicycle collided at a 90 degree angle it would slice that right in half.

imidazol97

The German bicycle probably cost more than the car. :sick:

ateixeira

That's not even the funny part, the funny part is that it is WORTH more than the car. LOL

fintail

Back when the Geo Metro was new, there were quite a few in the small town where I lived, as the local dealer would finance anyone. Of course, many of these ended up with body damage shortly after purchase. My dad was always joking that they were hit by tennis balls, ping pong balls, bird droppings, etc. Structural integrity on a Chinese stretch limo has to be terrifying.

andre1969

I bet if a bicycle collided at a 90 degree angle it would slice that right in half.

I bet if my former cow-irker sat in the middle row seat it would break in half, too!

ateixeira

I owned a Chevy Sprint Metro for about 4-6 months.

My girlfriend (now wife) didn't feel safe in it and pretty much forced me to trade it in.

It did provide amazing fuel mileage (45-50 mpg) during the gas price spike of the first gulf war, but the Escort GT that replaced it felt like a bank vault in comparison.

The Suzuki Swift GT on that platform was actually not too bad to drive.

fintail

I remember a few kids in high school had those. Seemed very tinny and flimsy...wouldn't want to crash one. Was the GT a turbo?

I think the S10 Blazer was still in the family during the first gulf war...but at that time my dad also had a 60 Ford Country Sedan that he preferred driving to the somewhat junky late malaise GM product. Shows how bad things got for new American cars that a gigantic finned station wagon was more enjoyable to drive than a supposedly "modern" early SUV.

ateixeira

Nope, but the GT had 4 whole cylinders, instead of 3.

Of course my Metro weighed about 1800 lbs IIRC. The GT was a little heavier but still basically weighed nothing, so 100hp moved it along nicely.

It was tinny, though. Mine had 48hp. It did 0-60 in 3 ... minutes. Down hill only.

At full throttle you still had people behind you honking to move out of the way.

The Escort had 127hp and felt like a Porsche after being used to only 48hp.

The Geo Metro got up to 55hp IIRC, but it was heavier than my Chevy, so it was still a "get out and push" affair.

fintail

I want a 400lb motorcycle to have a bit more than 48hp.

I knew a kid in high school who had a pre-Metro Sprint, and it was an automatic. That must have been tortuous to drive, but other than the safety issue, maybe great for a young driver. Can't get in trouble. My first car, a 66 Galaxie with a 390/4bbl, was maybe a bit much even though it was the size and weight of an aircraft carrier. But if you can park that, you can park anything, and it taught me what to do about random stalls...so it was a learning experience. The even older fintail felt like a different world when I first drove it. I remember I liked those Escort GTs when I was in high school, but far too rich for my blood

ateixeira

I think your AMG's wiper motor makes more power.

Autos were horrible. I had a 5 speed, at least.

I worked overtime while studying to pay off that Escort in just 17 months. It was great because it got me ahead of the curve. Ever since that car I've always saved up to buy in advance and paid cash. The GT lasted me 7 years before it was totalled so I had about 5.5 years to save up for the next car.

That Escort was made in the USA, to get back on topic. I think they were also made in Mexico.

berri

IIRC those Metro's were 3 bangers prone to early head gasket failure. I think they were based on either Suzuki or Daewoo?

ateixeira

Suzuki Swift, yeah.

Daewoo probably sold a variation overseas too.

lemko

My wife's first new car was a blue 1986 Chevrolet Sprint with the mighty 1.0 litre 3-cylinder mill! She replaced it with this big boat of a 1991 Mercury Tracer. :P

lemko

...you can't reach tech support?

Power Outtages Hit 600 Million in India

ateixeira

Small world, I went from an 1986 Chevy Sprint to a 1991 Ford Escort, the Tracer's twin.

ateixeira

Man, I felt like I was on hold FOREVER!

cannon3

As I visit car sites around the net it never ceases to amaze me how little Americans really think about the longterm consequences of their purchase. We are so programmed to think short term. Once I get in a conversation with someone about their purchase of a forgein auto, and explain to them how they just put another bullet in the U.S. economic engine. Along with how it will eventually come back to effect them or someone they know in some way. Many replies I get are "I am going to buy what I want" Ok, I understand that statement. But, what you "want" now, may mean the end of your JOB in the future! So, how will you pay for that in the FUTURE??. American products are still available online. These big box stores will only sell forgein goods because they make the most profit. Make a statement with your wallet. Demand U.S. made goods and services. We will never fully recover from this last recession. We must now live with double digit unemployment, or under employment as the new norm here in the U.S. But, we can make it a bit better buy buying local, buying what we can U.S. made!

bpizzuti

Let's see here, I can buy a Chevy Cruze, be stuck with a trunk, and hate my life. Or I can buy a Dodge Dart, get stuck with a trunk, and hate my life. I can buy a Hyundai Elantra GT, get out and push every time I want low end torque, and hate my life. I can buy aFord Focus and get low gas mileage and have to fill up every 2-3 days. Or I can buy a Mazda3 iGT hatch, enjoy my commute, enjoy driving, enjoy carrying stuff, enjoy only having to fill up every 4-5 days, and be glad I'm not driving one of those other cars.

Frankly, life's too short. If there was an American car that met my needs I'd buy it. But they've shown themselves incapable of building me a fuel efficient yet sporty hatchback. Though Ford at least tried hard, I'll grant them that. But guess what? I'm going to buy what I want. What I want also happens to be what two of the three American car manufacturers refuse to build because Americans won't buy hatchbacks. So it's their own fault. I refuse to subject myself to an inferior product. If American companies want my business they need to meet my requirements. Ford is the only one interested in trying and they fell short.

lemko

From the Philadelphia newspaper:

Don't Let Africa Fall to China!</a

roadburner

Frankly, life's too short. If there was an American car that met my needs I'd buy it. But they've shown themselves incapable of building me a fuel efficient yet sporty hatchback. Though Ford at least tried hard, I'll grant them that. But guess what? I'm going to buy what I want. What I want also happens to be what two of the three American car manufacturers refuse to build because Americans won't buy hatchbacks.

Same here- In 2007 I wanted a "hot hatch" and no US cars fit that description. I ended up with a Mazdaspeed 3. Just last month my wife was looking for a CPO car and wanted something small and nimble, after a brief dalliance with a Mini Cooper S Countryman she returned to her first love- a RWD sports sedan that weighs less than 3500 pounds and has a naturally aspirated inline six. Built in Sourh Africa... :surprise:

ateixeira

What about the Focus SFE?

bpizzuti

SFE isn't available on the hatch, only the sedan, near as I can tell.

And the tank's only 12 gallons anyway.

It's too bad, the thing is a pretty good car, but there's a few unforgivables, like the small gas tank, and the pathetic excuse for a manual mode on the DCT (a toggle switch is such a cop-out, and it shifts for you in manual mode anyway, which I don't like).

robr2

RWD sports sedan that weighs less than 3500 pounds and has a naturally aspirated inline six. Built in Sourh Africa

3 series or E Class??

ateixeira

Yeah, I hate when they do that. The Cruze ECO also has a smaller gas tank.

The Mazda3 SkyActive holds the full 14.5 gallons. The Impreza also has a big gas tank for that class. Most others are smaller.

Is the Focus made in the USA or Mexiso? Fiesta is Mexico, right?

bpizzuti

Yeah, the Focus is actually American made. Maybe the UAW charges by the gallon? :shades:

ateixeira

One explanation I've heard is that EPA tests are done with all fluids at capacity, and the fuel is heavy.

Seems like a lame excuse to me, though.

Let's ding Toyota too, their Prius C has a pathetic 9.5 gallon fuel capacity.

marsha7

"Chrysler loses a lot of business after one chance to ruin it. They are good at one thing, and that is losing a customer after just one experience."

While I have not been a rah-rah for Big 3 cars (it's that UAW thing, ya know?) I did have a 2000 Intrepid which was nice (all things started breaking down, tho, at 72K miles, right at the end of its 75K lease) and I bought a 2004 Dodge Ram 1500 pickup (hemi) that has had some problems, but all were fixed before the 75K warranty ran out...we are happy with the Ram, altho if I was to buy another pickup, might be a used 2-3 year old Ford King Ranch F150...

So, andres, you like my real estate dissertation, but hate my sales tax proposal???...I REALLY doubt that the rich would take the time or the effort to but everything they need for the next 5 years and store it...I mean, really...you think they are going to buy all those clothes in advance, cars, jewelry, jets, yachts, etc., just to beat the tax???...I truly doubt it...

Conisdering the number of people who do not pay income tax of any kind, the sales tax would still broaden the tax base far more than anything else, bringing in all the 48% of the US population that pays no income tax, plus the underground economy, drug dealers and tourists...the problem is that the income tax is the MOST FLAWED, yet you want to keep it solely due to its familiarity...plus, the sales tax would restore something we have lost to our overbearing federal govt, and that is our privacy...the IRS knows too much...

I don't care that they caught Al Capone using the income tax instead of murder laws...300 million citizens live under the cloud of the IRS so we can catch one gangster???

I think your priorities are confused...I simply believe that taxes should raise money to run the govt, not to spy on Americans or take away our privacy, or to "guide" social policy by granting tax deductions where they want you to spend money...

Take away our mortgage deductions, and every other deduction, have EVERYONE (or a substantial majority) pay at the register, and your GROSS pay is your NET pay and the IRS does not know you exist...

As a side note, I was standing in line to pay my cable bill, and ask some questions to the clerk...the sign on the wall said that they would not give me any information unless I had a photo ID to prove I was the account holder...

So, why is it racist to ask for photo ID to vote, voting being something VERY important, but for something as menial as my cable account, I have to provide proof of ID???

imidazol97

>One explanation I've heard is that EPA tests are done with all fluids at capacity,

Fuel tank size...

The extra weight of 5 gallons would cause very little in the way of rolling friction gas mileage loss.

Reducing the size of the tank might allow a smoother air flow underneath the car for fuel mileage savings.

The intertia of the extra gallons would cause a difference in the fuel required to get the car moving in a real world test where the car is actually moving, but does EPA do that kind of test. The desciption I remember is that they have the car on a test stand with a fan for cooling and drive the car on the dynamo, so the actual mass of the car does not get sped up nor slowed down in the test. Is that how the tests are done?

Because many vehicles are advertised as having a fuel range which means a larger tank can make up for lesser fuel efficiency, I would think that would be an advantage to the larger tank size. It's sort of like advertising a car based on payments per month rather than on the total cost of the car, but apparently people think larger range is a better car.

berri

Actually, your concept may work as an income tax as well. Make it flatter, with one (or two if you want progressiveness), minimal deductions. The Dems claim raise the tax rate on the rich, the Repubs say lower their tax rate. The problem is that most Americans don't want to penalize or reward with taxes, they just want fairness.

fintail

Just think of the cheap labor they could abuse and exploit after perfecting that ideal at home.

And it would happen with money supplied by the American consumer.

imidazol97

>the Repubs say lower their tax rate.

Actually the Republicans say keep them as they have been for the last 8-10 years, same as they are now instead of raising them at the end of this year when the extension of the bill setting them at the current rates expires and they would go back to a higher rate.

Not a decrease.

berri

I'm pretty sure Romney's economic plan further lowers tax rates.

roadburner

An E90 328i mit der slushbox. No that bad a drive, but if I bought one it would need a third pedal as well as the M Sport or Sport package.

bpizzuti

The Brookings Institute disagrees with you.

berri

Well, whatever. But the last thing I saw from the Brookings Institute seemed to support Obama more than Romney. I don't really think either party has an answer unfortunately. Guess its best to keep the clown parties split in DC until some 3rd party can come in and actually make a difference. Maybe someday we'll get a leader again instead of these two running. Pretty pathetic for a country of our size and wealth.

stever

What do the wealthly drive?

"The wealthiest Americans are cheapskates, as least as far as their tastes in automobiles goes. Perhaps that is why some rich Americans stay rich.

Not a single American car made the list. Even a look beyond the top eight sellers to the top 20 shows that German and Japanese models dominate. The only two American models on the wider list are the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Jeep Wrangler."

Eight Cheap Cars the Richest Americans Drive (MarketWatch)

roadburner

Having a Wrangler and a 3 Series in the driveway makes me feel wealthier already!

bpizzuti

What do you expect, think they got rich by spending it?

They're generally also VERY smart about extracting maximum value for their money, which is why that list doesn't surprise me a lot. Hondas and Toyotas, which have a reputation for lasting forever, and the BMW and Mercedes sport compacts, very popular models (someone might want to let them know about Mazda). The Jetta surprises me a little, but not a lot. Like the Civic, it's only recently that it got cheapened up.

I figure the Focus may make it on that list soon, the Titanium is a pretty sweet ride when fully optioned, and the price is very competitive. Dart might make it too, GM has some catching up to do.

stever

Wealth is a state of mind, not a bank account.

gagrice

Even if they bought GM cars they were likely built outside the USA. 70% of all GM vehicles are built elsewhere. China will soon take over GM.

http://madeinusanews.com/2012/08/03/general-motors-is-becoming-china-motors/

ateixeira

Prius, because they can't afford gas at today's prices.

Article says the RX is rear wheel drive, LOL.

I bet the author lives in NYC doesn't even own a car.