I would think the two extra gallons in the Mazda3 would be a big seller over the Focus. Looks like they both get decent mileage. Just think how much further you could go with a Mazda3 diesel and 14.5 gallons of fuel. 700 miles between fuel stops is what I am after.
Unless the Ford being slightly more American made carries a lot of weight.
Unfortunately no, Ford made some bad decisions. One is the size of the tank, another is not quite reaching the mark (160 HP but 36 or 37 MPG highway). These are not good things. And the one I really CAN'T forgive is their horrible implementation of manual mode on their DCT. Bad enough that it uses a silly little toggle switch instead of a proper slap-shifter or paddles, but it also insists on upshifting for you even if you're in the "manual" mode (which they call "Sport" mode, probably for that very reason).
That might be fine for Joe Public, but when i put my transmission into manual mode, i expect it to stop thinking for itself and do what I tell it instead. And if I tell it to roll along just short of redline, it'd better do it. :shades: Mazda makes such a transmission. In a hatchback. With a bigger gas tank. In a car that actually gets 40 MPG highway, despite being rated at only 39.
Granted the Focus is a nice car. For someone not concerned with the issues I'm concerned with above, it's a great choice. But if they're looking to tap into the sport compact market, at the very LEAST they need to fix the DCT to have a true manual mode. I realize replacing the toggle with something better would be harder, as would the tank thing.
The Edmunds reviewer says the same thing about the Focus shiftable automatic. He called it Quirky. It would be nice to support US auto workers. It would be good if the Domestics were leaders in something besides full sized PU trucks. The D3 do not make it easy to justify buying American.
Well, they're MORE competitive at least. We'll see how the Dart pans out, if their DCT ever drops. I want nothing to do with the Hyundai automatic they're using on the 2L engine.
Mazda makes such a transmission. In a hatchback. With a bigger gas tank. In a car that actually gets 40 MPG highway, despite being rated at only 39.
SkyActiv deserves major kudos, Autoweek tested a whole bunch of the 40mpg clubbers and the 3 did amazingly well. You can break 40mpg on the highway at speeds up to around 70mph.
IIRC only the Golf TDI did better, and only slightly better. Plus regular gas costs less than diesel.
They could make a TON selling just the engine and tranny, but they'd have to license it, everything they're building is going into the 3 and CX-5, I doubt they have enough manufacturing capacity to make extras to sell.
But could you imagine an Alfa Romeo chassis with a SkyActiv powertrain? Or a FOCUS with it? Ooh man....
GM, being GM, will not use it. Probably because Americans don't buy hatchbacks and it's used in a hatchback or something like that. Then they'll release a new 2.0L engine and 6 speed that does almost as well, proclaim themselves to be world class, and then sell them to fleets. :shades:
They're building a plant in Mexico. Not sure if they have the cash to start a project here, they're probably better off buying a factory that's being wound down or something.
The next Mazda3 probably won't be around until MY2015. I can't wait that long. On the other hand, I'm thinking of buying a 2013, and would have no problem trading it in in 2-3 years.
I've noticed that the 6 and the CX-5, with their full 4-2-1 header implementation, have REALLY long hoods comparatively.
Since our current govt. owns GM, didn't they establish the future mileage stds. that dictates squirt boxes with lawnmower power..I guess the "donkey" rules the game..and they have finally succeeded in screwing our industrial base..
Spent 34 in the supplier game, and went thru several "leveraged buyouts by venture capitalists", all failed... The original owners got tired of the game and wanted to pocket the money of which I have no problem understanding..I suffered, but moved on, got tired of it all and decided to become a self-employed sales rep with 3-4 suppliers..Lots of safety in numbers and eliminates the worry of relying on a single entity..
Our auto game is no longer interesting and the transplants are eating Detroit's lunch.. People get upset when they see that the Camry has a higher local content % than any Big 3 model..Believe me the content % sticker is nothing more than a game..It started back in the early 80s with the Asians and the pass-thru of components from offshore to a final assembly point and it was declared all-American.. Everybody looks the other way..
I will let you young geniuses decide the future of the real American car, for I have lived in the "fun" times and I hope you at least realize that the "greenies" are running the show..Nothing wrong with wealth, offshore bank accounts, and capitalism, the "greenies" do it every day..however they don't want you to do it..
The "happy days" on the "Autobahn" back in 1957-1960 with the 2 Porsches were memorable times, not a care in the world..I didn't always win the race for I got smoked a few times, but they can have Europe/Germany in it's present political climate..We are getting close to becoming a "mirror image" of their lifestyle..
I will let you young geniuses decide the future of the real American car, for I have lived in the "fun" times and I hope you at least realize that the "greenies" are running the show
If it was the "Greenies" that built that lovely Mazda3 SkyActiv setup, I say let them keep running it, thank you. They're doing a bang-up job, and I'll take a Mazda3 and smoke your 50's Porche in half a heartbeat. :shades:
This isn't about the fun being over, this is about American cars needing to become competitive. And they can. The Focus proves it. Ford went to Europe, where they know how to design small, lightweight, fuel-efficient cars that are still fun to pilot. They took the design and brought it back here to build. Smart.
Granted I would put the Mazda3 over the Ford Focus, that's my own tastes. I would put the Focus right near the top with the Elantra and Dart though, and above, the Civic, Corolla, Sentra, and Cruze. Americans can do it all quite well, thank you. It's GM that seems to have a problem. Everyone else seem to manage to create fuel efficient cars that people seem to like an awful lot.
"We are getting close to becoming a "mirror image" of their lifestyle.. "
You mean like actually trying to retain some living wage jobs, less crime, better health, less poverty, better drivers, better infrastructure, less aid to the 1%, better primary education, letting someone else provide defense, etc? Sounds like hell!
To think, those fun times back in the occupation days were enabled by taxpayer dollars too, that evil government at work...
Most cars today (American included) are better than back in the high earning years of the silent generation, too.
There really aren't any "bad" cars at all sold here any more. Some specifically configured models are troublesome now and then, but no nightmares. Far less broken down cars on the side of the road than say 25 years ago.
If we ever do make the mistake of allowing in Chinese cars, they will likely by that time have copied/stolen/reverse engineered enough to make it tolerably reliable.
Yeah, but the metallurgy will be suspect and the interior materials will be so toxic each one will be rendered a mini SuperFund site by the EPA. Each car will have a lifetime warranty, but the caveat is that anyone foolish enough to buy one will probably die of aggressive cancer before the car falls apart.
Yes, but it took, what, 20 years? The Excel was a punch line and they didn't really recover fully until, IMHO, the 2005 Sonata was named the most reliable car in Consumer Reports survey, right around 2008 or so.
So it took more than 20 years for them to be taken seriously. And really they've only been seen as par with Toyota/Honda in the past year or two, so maybe even 25.
If China Motors has a similar false start, by selling cheap knock-offs here, then they will have to sell at a discount for at least a decade.
If they're smart they will launch in the US only when they have new, unique designs that have their early issues worked out. This is probably the market that is least tolerant of poor reliability.
Actually, no, if they're smart they'll do EXACTLY what Hyundai did. Occupy the bottom of the barrel, which all manufacturers have abandoned. At that level, you don't care if you're taken seriously, so long as you're taking money. And market share. Then slowly move up, improving quality, materials, engineering, until your competitors wake up one morning and realize they've fallen behind. Yeah, it takes 20 years, but if you're used to thinking long term (unlike American manufacturers) then 20 years is nothing.
I agree that Honda's design and engineering teams have been a really deep negative funk for the last 10 years.
However, that just means they've put out undesireable, but still reliable products. The cars might be stale and lack innovation or desireability, but they will still get you from A to B better than most out there.
Their reliability and durability hasn't been hurt by this funk; just the designs and engineering.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I haven't seen the desire for quality improvement and image that the Koreans possess coming from any product originating from China. Kind of hard to compare them, IMO.
Didn't the old VW Bugs hold up fairly well in crash testing
Doubtful. Classmate of mine got one for a HS graduation present in '70 and promptly crashed it and died. Simcas were tinny too though. I drove mine like an idiot all too often too. :sick:
One guy who always pushed the limit kept crashing his '57 Chevy, including one turtle episode, and never got too banged up.
There's a great looking convertible Super Beetle around here that I'd love to have, but I'd be afraid to drive it out of town. I might live a bit dangerously for a Karman Ghia though.
The government builds the roads we drive on and we can talk about Interstates and on-ramps all day long
Speaking of which the state of our roadways and interstate freeways is in disrepair, dispicable smoothness, flatness, and conditonal quality.
I know most of the roads in CA are in poor condition. Can't anyone build a flat smooth road anymore?
Perhaps we need to sub-out our road and interstate construction to the Europeans and Japanese, since their roadways appear to be superior to ours, just like the cars! :P
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'll make this short and sweet. I was at a gathering and a guy was talking about his new car he had just bought. Well, he gushed on how inexpensive it was and the great warranty and so on. I then popped the question "How about the long term consequences of buying this car"?. He looked at me with a puzzled look. Game on. After debate between 3 guys about buying forgein goods and services, common sense won. He won't be buying forgein vehicles, he is changing his buying mentality and thought process, along with the other folks in this debate. You can't beat common sense people. Demand American goods and services. Its good for your future, your kids future, the financial stability of our country.
"If we ever do make the mistake of allowing in Chinese cars, they will likely by that time have copied/stolen/reverse engineered enough to make it tolerably reliable."
If we will allow Mexican trucks which are uninspected for safety and uninsured into the US, Chinese cars are right behind...not only can we not keep out illegal Mexicans, we cannot, or will not, keep out their substandard vehicles...all so we are at risk if there is a collision...
I did the same when I talked a girlfriend of mine out of a Chevy Volt. Told her that the transmission was from Japan, the eectric motors from Mexico, the engine was from Austria and the best of all, the batteries were Korean, winning the contract from the original intended supplier in Massachusetts (A123).
All for agrand total of 40% domestic content.
That, and 40 grand for a cheap, one trick pony, econobox was absurd... :sick:
Government Motors is doing sub prime loans on their vehicles here. See the USA in your Sub Prime Chevrolet. It won't be the same as the Housing Bubble. Just put a lot of used cars on the market that are upside down. No biggie, they still owe the tax payers $42 billion. The high cost of keeping American names alive.
Funny that there's a lot of different reasons to dislike GM.
Some people hate, some dislike, some loathe, but for all different reasons from: 1) anti-bailout 2) Sold a lemon and hung out to dry 3) anti-UAW workers 4) anti poor management 5) anti bonuses and golden parachutes for failing companies 6) anti junk cars 7) anti gov't motors 8) anti Obama motors
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I guess that can be argued that way, not to mention cash for clunkers which was a defacto incentive.
Oh well, 42BN for a domestic industry is still no worse than what we piss away on defending other nations and creating our own puppet states with no real benefit given.
1988 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 PU 1990 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 PU 1993 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 PU 1999 Chevy Suburban 4X4
It went down hill from there with a 2005 GMC Sierra Hybrid PU that was very poorly assembled. I have to assume it was worthless UAW workers unhappy having to work for a living.
Comments
Unless the Ford being slightly more American made carries a lot of weight.
That might be fine for Joe Public, but when i put my transmission into manual mode, i expect it to stop thinking for itself and do what I tell it instead. And if I tell it to roll along just short of redline, it'd better do it. :shades: Mazda makes such a transmission. In a hatchback. With a bigger gas tank. In a car that actually gets 40 MPG highway, despite being rated at only 39.
Granted the Focus is a nice car. For someone not concerned with the issues I'm concerned with above, it's a great choice. But if they're looking to tap into the sport compact market, at the very LEAST they need to fix the DCT to have a true manual mode. I realize replacing the toggle with something better would be harder, as would the tank thing.
SkyActiv deserves major kudos, Autoweek tested a whole bunch of the 40mpg clubbers and the 3 did amazingly well. You can break 40mpg on the highway at speeds up to around 70mph.
IIRC only the Golf TDI did better, and only slightly better. Plus regular gas costs less than diesel.
But could you imagine an Alfa Romeo chassis with a SkyActiv powertrain? Or a FOCUS with it? Ooh man....
GM, being GM, will not use it. Probably because Americans don't buy hatchbacks and it's used in a hatchback or something like that. Then they'll release a new 2.0L engine and 6 speed that does almost as well, proclaim themselves to be world class, and then sell them to fleets. :shades:
The next gen 3 should be very interesting. Diesel even more so.
Would be nice if Mazda could shift production here.
The next Mazda3 probably won't be around until MY2015. I can't wait that long. On the other hand, I'm thinking of buying a 2013, and would have no problem trading it in in 2-3 years.
I've noticed that the 6 and the CX-5, with their full 4-2-1 header implementation, have REALLY long hoods comparatively.
Spent 34 in the supplier game, and went thru several "leveraged buyouts by venture capitalists", all failed... The original owners got tired of the game and wanted to pocket the money of which I have no problem understanding..I suffered, but moved on, got tired of it all and decided to become a self-employed sales rep with 3-4 suppliers..Lots of safety in numbers and eliminates the worry of relying on a single entity..
Our auto game is no longer interesting and the transplants are eating Detroit's lunch.. People get upset when they see that the Camry has a higher local content % than any Big 3 model..Believe me the content % sticker is nothing more than a game..It started back in the early 80s with the Asians and the pass-thru of components from offshore to a final assembly point and it was declared all-American.. Everybody looks the other way..
I will let you young geniuses decide the future of the real American car, for I have lived in the "fun" times and I hope you at least realize that the "greenies" are running the show..Nothing wrong with wealth, offshore bank accounts, and capitalism, the "greenies" do it every day..however they don't want you to do it..
The "happy days" on the "Autobahn" back in 1957-1960 with the 2 Porsches were memorable times, not a care in the world..I didn't always win the race for I got smoked a few times, but they can have Europe/Germany in it's present political climate..We are getting close to becoming a "mirror image" of their lifestyle..
Good Day!!!
If it was the "Greenies" that built that lovely Mazda3 SkyActiv setup, I say let them keep running it, thank you. They're doing a bang-up job, and I'll take a Mazda3 and smoke your 50's Porche in half a heartbeat. :shades:
This isn't about the fun being over, this is about American cars needing to become competitive. And they can. The Focus proves it. Ford went to Europe, where they know how to design small, lightweight, fuel-efficient cars that are still fun to pilot. They took the design and brought it back here to build. Smart.
Granted I would put the Mazda3 over the Ford Focus, that's my own tastes. I would put the Focus right near the top with the Elantra and Dart though, and above, the Civic, Corolla, Sentra, and Cruze. Americans can do it all quite well, thank you. It's GM that seems to have a problem. Everyone else seem to manage to create fuel efficient cars that people seem to like an awful lot.
You mean like actually trying to retain some living wage jobs, less crime, better health, less poverty, better drivers, better infrastructure, less aid to the 1%, better primary education, letting someone else provide defense, etc? Sounds like hell!
To think, those fun times back in the occupation days were enabled by taxpayer dollars too, that evil government at work...
Most cars today (American included) are better than back in the high earning years of the silent generation, too.
At least until Chery starts selling cars here.
If we ever do make the mistake of allowing in Chinese cars, they will likely by that time have copied/stolen/reverse engineered enough to make it tolerably reliable.
I think the real barrier to chinese cars here is not copyright laws, but rather crash testing.
Here's how you break a Brilliance in half (fake Daewoo Leganza):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbe5ILICT4M
Side by side with a BMW 7 (not fair, but fun anyway):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ULm6QrC428&feature=fvwrel
And a fake Rodeo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5JpY9DM_k&feature=related
I remember Simcas at the AMC dealer too though.
So it took more than 20 years for them to be taken seriously. And really they've only been seen as par with Toyota/Honda in the past year or two, so maybe even 25.
If China Motors has a similar false start, by selling cheap knock-offs here, then they will have to sell at a discount for at least a decade.
If they're smart they will launch in the US only when they have new, unique designs that have their early issues worked out. This is probably the market that is least tolerant of poor reliability.
Even then, I don't think they are seen as on par with Toyota / Honda just yet.
Are their resale values equivalent or better? The market speaks with their wallets on resale value and perceived reliability is a huge factor.
This is probably the market that is least tolerant of poor reliability.
Because we've been burned with the worst cars ever made in the world already. I challenge anyone to make something more unreliable than my Dodge was.
You get one of those and your next car will most certainly be a Toyota or Honda, no matter how boring their cars might be!
Where have YOU been? Not even Honda and Toyota are in a par with Honda and Toyota anymore. :P
The top tier is now Ford, Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai. And arguable VW and GM and Nissan.
I mean come on, EarthDreams? This from the company that released the Civic Si and the CRX? That's not Honda, that's Nega-Honda.
Admittedly, Toyota standing too pat and Honda being too conservative has probably helped the Detroit Three more than many other things.
However, that just means they've put out undesireable, but still reliable products. The cars might be stale and lack innovation or desireability, but they will still get you from A to B better than most out there.
Their reliability and durability hasn't been hurt by this funk; just the designs and engineering.
Not sure, but their incentives are among the lowest in the industry, and certainly that will help improve residuals.
I'd never need a new car bad enough to buy one from there. I wonder what kind of poisoning could be put into interior plastics and seating materials.
Doubtful. Classmate of mine got one for a HS graduation present in '70 and promptly crashed it and died. Simcas were tinny too though. I drove mine like an idiot all too often too. :sick:
One guy who always pushed the limit kept crashing his '57 Chevy, including one turtle episode, and never got too banged up.
There's a great looking convertible Super Beetle around here that I'd love to have, but I'd be afraid to drive it out of town. I might live a bit dangerously for a Karman Ghia though.
Speaking of which the state of our roadways and interstate freeways is in disrepair, dispicable smoothness, flatness, and conditonal quality.
I know most of the roads in CA are in poor condition. Can't anyone build a flat smooth road anymore?
Perhaps we need to sub-out our road and interstate construction to the Europeans and Japanese, since their roadways appear to be superior to ours, just like the cars! :P
If we will allow Mexican trucks which are uninspected for safety and uninsured into the US, Chinese cars are right behind...not only can we not keep out illegal Mexicans, we cannot, or will not, keep out their substandard vehicles...all so we are at risk if there is a collision...
I wonder who profits the most from those trucking risks.
Chinese vehicles are a different story, though. Hopefully, nobody will need a new car that badly.
All for agrand total of 40% domestic content.
That, and 40 grand for a cheap, one trick pony, econobox was absurd... :sick:
The government made loan money available to anyone with a job. The roads were not built to withstand the volume of traffic they got.
If they ever did sell a $2500 Tata Nano that alone may be the best reason to keep it out of the USA.
I don't know if anyone needs a new car badly enough to consider a Nano.
It helped the economy grow a lot, but the infrastructure wasn't ready to handle it.
Some people hate, some dislike, some loathe, but for all different reasons from:
1) anti-bailout
2) Sold a lemon and hung out to dry
3) anti-UAW workers
4) anti poor management
5) anti bonuses and golden parachutes for failing companies
6) anti junk cars
7) anti gov't motors
8) anti Obama motors
Mostly cuz they are ugly and don't have a high mileage diesel SUV.
And you forgot 10) Americans don't buy hatchbacks. :shades:
Oh well, 42BN for a domestic industry is still no worse than what we piss away on defending other nations and creating our own puppet states with no real benefit given.
2005 Buick LaCrosse CXL.
2002 Cadillac Seville STS.
2001 Chevrolet Impala.
1994 Cadillac DeVille.
1989 Cadillac Brougham.
1988 Buick Park Avenue.
1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic.
1979 Buick Park Avenue.
1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency.
1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille.
1968 Buick Special Deluxe.
I didn't even include the awesome GM cars owned by friends and family.
1988 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 PU
1990 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 PU
1993 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 PU
1999 Chevy Suburban 4X4
It went down hill from there with a 2005 GMC Sierra Hybrid PU that was very poorly assembled. I have to assume it was worthless UAW workers unhappy having to work for a living.