Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

ateixeira

Really? Ram higher than the JGC? That surprises me. Pickups are not exactly aerodynamic, or light, or tuned for economy.

If they price it aggressively I can see them stealing a little share from just about everyone else.

Wonder who else will offer a diesel in response?

andre1969

Really? Ram higher than the JGC? That surprises me. Pickups are not exactly aerodynamic, or light, or tuned for economy.

Yeah, I just looked, and in 2wd form, the 3.6 Ram gets 17/25, while the Grand Cherokee gets 17/23.

I think the drag coefficient on my Ram is something like .375, so it's not exactly a brick. However, I'm sure it's going to have a lot more frontal area th push than a Grand Cherokee. But, I don't think aerodynamics really really come into play until you get up to higher speeds, anyway.

And while my Ram is a bit of a porker, at around 4900 lb I guess, the Grand Cherokee is no shrinking violet itself. Don't they start at around 4500?

My guess is that the 8 speed automatic in the Ram is what makes all the difference. It probably allows them to give it a slightly taller axle ratio. Or, simply a couple of extra tall final gears, but either way the overall effective top gear ratio is probably taller than with the 5-speed.

In the Charger/300, I think the jump from 5-speed to 8-speed improves the fuel economy from around 18/27 to 19/31.

gagrice

The JGC gets the 8 speed trans in the diesel version for sure.

ateixeira

Man, imagine the diesel loafing along in 8th gear, probably near idle. That'll sure sip fuel.

fintail

Like my 8 speed A8 3.0 TDi rental - 200kmh = 2500rpm

marsha7

"I agree with you. Now that Michigan is RTW you may see some movement. The UAW stranglehold is broken or at least forced to do their job representing the workers."

I really wonder if RTW in Michigan will start to show anything for at least 5 years...I would be hesitant to start a factory there knowing that if the vpoters vote the Democrats back in, RTW would be repealed within 20 minutes, meanwhile you are stuck with your plant and your soon-to-be forced UAW workers...I may be wrong, but I just think that RTW will take some time to show real results because of how fast it could change back the other way...

Side note on VW...I remember reading years ago that, after WWII, Henry Ford (or Henry Ford II, whoever ran the company then) was offered VW for, like, a dollar, and he turned it down because he thought the cars were junk and that no one would buy something that small and cheap...

tlong

Like my 8 speed A8 3.0 TDi rental

Isn't that a 1% car? :P

I'll hold off on using a bunch of those adjectives I've seen around here. :shades:

fintail

Rental car, I know you read that, you pasted it

I think in Germany, many ex rental A8s end up as taxis. Nothing more proletarian than that. Socialism?

stever

Classic American Muscle Cars Revived as Forever Stamps

gagrice

I saw those at the PO. They did not have any. Are they a new release?

stever

Yep, that was a tease.

"The limited edition Muscle Car Forever Stamps will debut on February 22 at Daytona International Speedway, two days before the 55th annual Daytona 500. Appropriately, the dedication will be handled by seven-time NASCAR champion Richard Petty and his son Kyle."

I assume they'll be available at your local post office shortly thereafter.

fintail

Very cool. I might get some of those.

Many other countries have had several editions of car stamps, and not just those countries who print up junk for collectors.

xrunner2

The limited edition Muscle Car Forever Stamps will debut on February 22 at Daytona International Speedway, two days before the 55th annual Daytona 500.

Speaking of NASCAR, they have revised rules for 2013 for race car profiles. The race cars will have more distinguishing traits and will better resemble the American cars we see on the street. Including the high "American" content Camry.

tlong

Rental car, I know you read that, you pasted it

Yup, but given the average size of a car in Europe, the A8 is, shall we say, a bit.....exorbitant, no? :P

As in something the treacherous criminal executives drive? :P :P

fintail

Isn't that the point of a vacation you saved up a couple years to enjoy? Live a little. It's nice being single with no kids :shades: A big car for any area, but I didn't have too many issues other than tight parking garages.

The useless exec or manager would bill the car to his employer

gagrice

I think the A8L is the same length as the S class Mercedes. A little over 200 inches long. Great for cruising cross country. Only thing better is a Luxo SUV. :shades:

Even better if you can write it all off to a business.

stever

Speaking of NASCAR

Guess who's in pole position?

fintail

Definitely a boat. Some of us don't like the ponderous feel and parking inconvenience of SUVs, and some like me also think they have a bad image :shades:

No doubt a lot of "Made in USA" trucks are write offs.

tlong

The useless exec or manager would bill the car to his employer

He might be his own employer!

Have you seen many Sparks or Sonics in the Pacific NW? I still don't think I've seen either here in SoCal.

fintail

And he might base in some scummy tax haven subsidized by the American taxpayer, too, in order to dodge paying maintenance on what enabled him to exist (oh no, he "built it"). In that case...

My sister bought a Sonic maybe 5 months ago. She's fine with it. I see them now and then, but they might be rentals. An old co-worker bought a Spark in October. Don't see as many of those.

busiris

Have you seen many Sparks or Sonics in the Pacific NW? I still don't think I've seen either here in SoCal

The only ones I've seen (see the exception below) have been on the Chevy dealer lots here in SC. But, with gas prices going up, that may change.

IMO, if the car price "affordability issue" isn't a factor, I think folks are up-sizing just a bit. The mpg isn't really all that much different, and the buyer gets a lot more perceived car/utility.

The local hospital teamed up with several businesses and had a scavenger hunt, where the only item being hunted was a bright red Sonic hatchback. The car was shuttled all over town and the point of the hunt was to know where and when the car was at a particular location, over a period of about 3 months, IIRC. Once all the completed and accurate entry forms were collected, a drawing was held to determine the winner.

It seemed all a bit much to me, because the winner didn't get the car to keep, but just a 2-year lease. Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but not really all that valuable, at least, to me....

busiris

Side note on VW...I remember reading years ago that, after WWII, Henry Ford (or Henry Ford II, whoever ran the company then) was offered VW for, like, a dollar, and he turned it down because he thought the cars were junk and that no one would buy something that small and cheap...

I've never heard that about Ford being offered VW.

After the end of WWII, the British were offered VW as part of war reparations, but none of the British carmakers were interested. Still, Britain's government saw the value in VW and restarted the plant, once the Allies realized that keeping Germany as a primarily agricultural state wasn't going to be feasible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle

Henry II has been quoted, however, saying "Small cars mean small profits", so I doubt if Ford would have taken VW at the time, even if there was money in the deal for Ford...

http://articles.courant.com/2011-04-13/classified/hc-class-auto-0413_1_small-car- s-transmission-domestic-automakers

andre1969

Have you seen many Sparks or Sonics in the Pacific NW? I still don't think I've seen either here in SoCal.

Here in the DC area, I see an occasional Sonic. In fact, there's a lady at work who bought one recently, a silver hatchback. She traded a '99 Tracker 4-door on it.

I think I've seen a Spark on rare occasion. Definitely not an every day occurrence though.

tlong

And he might base in some scummy tax haven subsidized by the American taxpayer, too, in order to dodge paying maintenance on what enabled him to exist (oh no, he "built it"). In that case...

I don't know, people who can afford fuel for an A8 in Europe are dangerously close to scummy behavior - most of us 99% can't really fathom that situation. :P

Unless I've seen the Sonic and Spark and they are so nondescript that I don't even notice. I usually notice cars I've not seen before, so I'm a bit bewildered that I've not seen them.

I do see an occasional A8 around here - have you been in California?

fintail

A car that averaged 33mpg isn't exactly a guzzler. Many of the 99% also blow their paydays in casinos and on $250 jeans, houses that more than they need, guzzling SUVs, etc. And some of us 99% control some expenses to splurge on others

You probably won't notice a trunkback Sonic - fairly boring thing - not ugly, but not memorable. The hatch looks better. The headlamps are distinctive, and the motorcycle style gauges are interesting. Spark has a goofy face, you'd remember it.

Plenty of A8s in my area, large Audi dealer a few miles away. They even have A8 service loaners (!)

tlong

A car that averaged 33mpg isn't exactly a guzzler. Many of the 99% also blow their paydays in casinos and on $250 jeans, houses that more than they need, guzzling SUVs, etc. And some of us 99% control some expenses to splurge on others

Yes, thank goodness there are some foreign-nameplate replacement jobs for all of those UAW who aren't working due to D3 meltdowns. Of course not too many of those UAW actually get those jobs (they're not in Michigan), but overall it helps offset some of the displacement in the market.

The thing about capitalism is that it seeks efficiency. With a trio of unionized low-efficiency manufacturers up in Detroit, it was only a matter of time where others would step in to the US and begin manufacturing more efficiently. At least they are here rather than elsewhere, which means a higher proportion of autos sold in the US are made here.

It would be interesting to see a graph of percent of US sold vehicles assembled in the US vs. time. Of course it would have been near 100% in the '60's, and probably declined quite a bit into the 80's, and then I suspect has climbed back up somewhat over the last couple of decades.

tlong

Plenty of A8s in my area, large Audi dealer a few miles away. They even have A8 service loaners

Wow, when I had my A4 early last decade, my dealer sent me to Enterprise and I ended up with a PT Cruiser.

fintail

Efficiency usually isn't a problem, given a level playing field.

I'd wager a lot that the amount of domestic made vehicles has climbed in the past 25 years - and will continue to do so with the Germans taking up operations here.

For the PT Cruiser rental, that stinks. I know the local Caddy dealer once had a cheapo loaner fleet, but had to relent and use some CTS etc for it, as all the other local highlines have highline (usually entry model) loaner fleets. Local MB dealer uses C and GLK.

roadburner

My BMW dealer has 1, 3, and 5 Series loaners aswell as X1, X3 and X5 trucks.

tlong

Efficiency usually isn't a problem, given a level playing field.

No playing fields have been level, are level, or are likely to ever be completely level.

For the PT Cruiser rental, that stinks.

Well, it was actually kind of interesting to drive one once. I always liked the look and the utility of them. Too bad the interiors were junk and there was no refinement. Could have been a nice vehicle.

I also got to choose a Maxima once. It had a great sound system and lots of power, but compared to my A4 the rear end was bouncy bouncy baby. I was unimpressed.

stever

I always liked the look and the utility of them. Too bad the interiors were junk and there was no refinement. Could have been a nice vehicle.

Me too. Never drove one but I think it could still be a nice vehicle for Chrysler.

Plus I like level flat floors (a carpenter taught that one to me - he could make something flat but forget level).

fintail

But measures can be taken to make the field more level than it has devolved to recently thanks to supposed "capitalism" (make no mistake, this is a statist oligarchy). "Trade Surrender", to quote an unsuccessful politico.

I test drove a PT with a friend of mine when they originally launched, spring of 2000. It was obviously just a rebodied neon, but it was a head-turner for the time and was really something unique. Fast forward to 2009, and my mother gets one as a rental - everything was cheap cheap cheap, and not evolved at all. Awful inside.

Maximas have been big in the fleets for a few years now. Lots of worse things to be stuck with.

tlong

But measures can be taken to make the field more level than it has devolved to recently thanks to supposed "capitalism" (make no mistake, this is a statist oligarchy). "Trade Surrender", to quote an unsuccessful politico.

I must say you are more familiar with these terms than anybody I know. Did you major in poly sci? :surprise:

I test drove a PT with a friend of mine when they originally launched, spring of 2000. It was obviously just a rebodied neon, but it was a head-turner for the time and was really something unique. Fast forward to 2009, and my mother gets one as a rental - everything was cheap cheap cheap, and not evolved at all. Awful inside.

The thing is, IMHO they looked great. There was a metallic sort of reddish purple color that was stunning. And then you sit inside....

If it had more of an Audi or even VW interior, and some refinement in the drivetrain, it would be a transformed vehicle. So practical inside and attractive to look at. Much nicer looking than the HHR IMHO.

fintail

Nope, but I did study econ just a little bit

In 2000, the PT was pretty stunning. Retro was really hot then, and it was unlike anything else. I remember going on that test drive, and people would stare and point at the thing. It just wasn't updated for too many years. There were a few years of convertibles and turbos, but faded away. And the interior material quality, just fleet grade. It had some really good name value/equity for the first few years - sad mismanagement, They were going for huge amounts over MSRP in 2000, couldn't give them away for the last several years of production.

roadburner

They were going for huge amounts over MSRP in 2000, couldn't give them away for the last several years of production.

I remember that when the PT first came out it was so hot that one of the Chrysler execs couldn't get one to give to his wife for a Christmas present. They were in extremely high demand and Chrysler ramped up production, killed the mystique, and wound up with lots full of the things. Ford did something similar with the last Thunderbird. MINI has managed to walk a fine line between supply and demand- and if Chrysler and Ford had adopted a similar long term strategy the PT and T-Bird could have been cash cows for 5-6 years.

imidazol97

Last time she visited here my sister-in-law talked about running at the car rental place to get the one car on the line that was NOT a PT Criuser. She hates them. She's a flight attendant for a large airlines and frequently gets rentals.

ateixeira

I test drove a convertible - you can imagine what the structure was like. Pass.

fintail

Here in WA, I remember local dealers were buying PT stocks from Canadian dealers and converting them - the Canadians were making out like bandits due to the exchange rates then, and the locals were doing well too due to demand - the high models were over 25K, in 2000 dollars. But after a years, couldn't maintain it, became a fleet queen.

fintail

I've heard status holding renters will sometimes put a note in their account to reject some cars. Can't blame one for the PT.

Speaking of Sonic from earlier, a trunkback one has turned up in the garage of my building, and I notice the dealer has maybe 6 hatches.

dieselone

I've heard status holding renters will sometimes put a note in their account to reject some cars.

When my sister worked for Enterprise in downtown Chicago, she would talk about some of her "regular" customers who only would accept certain vehicles. She always had some good stories.

gagrice

My tax man ordered one of the first PT Cruisers loaded with bling. When he moved to Florida he traded it on a Lexus RX so his dog had more room. They did not give him much for that over priced POC. Horrible resale value. They are way too small for my taste. Look better in some one else's driveway.

uplanderguy

I bought a 2008 PT, 24 months after its build date, for my daughter...it had been a rental. We've had it 2 1/2 years and it's been reliable. It's very roomy, with great headroom and utility (daughter has a cello). You sit on chair-high seats, and I think the dash is anything but rental-grade, particularly at the price--exterior gloss color accents inside, big assist grip over the glove compartment area, huge heat/AC vents....best heater of any car we own.

Downsides IMO are rough idle (although it's due for spark plug wires), not very good MPG, and a little large turning circle but I don't care about that.

I paid exactly $6,930 at twenty-four months. It's been a great value IMHO.

dieselone

A two year old car for under $7K that's been reliable for 2 1/2 years is a good value.

My oldest will be driving in a little over a year. I'm starting to keep an eye out on used cars. She won't be able to drive my wife's company car at all, so that means all of her driving will have to be in the Expedition.

fintail

16 year old in an Expy is looking for trouble. A used PT might be a good bet for a driver like that.

ateixeira

I paid exactly $6,930 at twenty-four months

You win.

People seem to forget when you are buying a used car, low resale works to your advantage.

A similar Toyota for that cost would be 7+ years old.

stever

U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’ (WSJ)

US tire maker “Titan is going to buy a Chinese tire company or an Indian one, pay less than one Euro per hour and ship all the tires France needs,” Mr. Taylor concludes. But why get ahead of ourselves? Before that charming sign-off, he takes a shot at the French government, French unions, French workers and the U.S. government."

tlong

A similar Toyota for that cost would be 7+ years old.

...but probably more reliable. :P

ateixeira

That guy needs to learn the art of subtlety.

You're supposed to say it's "not feasible in the current market", or maybe "unsustainable business practices", or something like that.

busiris

I wonder how much longer we'll see Fisker around...

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/fisker-automotive-could-be-bought-by-chinas-ge- ely/

ateixeira

You mean they were around?