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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    25" Zenith console in 1972 for around $700. Adjusting for inflation, that's about $3856 today!

    I think that's what we had, also a console. Scary to think!

    big hit ... is real estate

    Yep. Dad paid $40k in 1971, 2nd buyer paid $120k in 1980, 3rd buyer paid $357k in 1999, and today our old house is worth about $800k!

    There's just no way incomes have gone up 2000% since 1971.

    Interestingly each buyer has had the value of that house roughly triple.
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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,690
    Both sets of my grandparents tended to buy cars every 3-4 years, at least until they got older. And none of them were what I'd call "rich".

    On my Dad's side, they started with a used 1949 Ford, and then every car after that was bought brand-new, and paid for in cash. They were:
    1957 Ford Fairlane 500
    1961 Ford Galaxie 500
    1963 Mercury Monterrey
    1966 (or '67, I forget now) Pontiac Tempest
    1971 Pontiac Tempest
    1975 Dodge Dart Swinger
    1977 Ford Granada
    1981 Ford Granada
    1985 Ford LTD
    1989 Ford Taurus LX
    1994 Ford Taurus GL

    Granddad retired in 1974, at the age of 60, from the railroad, making $6.00 per hour. Grandmom worked as well, but I forget how much she made, and she retired the same year. None of those were particularly expensive/prestigious cars. The '57, 61, and 63 were around $3500 each. The '89 Taurus was around $16,800. Can't remember what the '94 was.
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    25" Zenith console in 1972 for around $700. Adjusting for inflation, that's about $3856 today!

    I think that's what we had, also a console. Scary to think!

    Yeah, but we only had one TV in the house back then. I've got 7 TV's in our house, so I roughly have paid $7k for them. Not to mention cable service.

    Yep. Dad paid $40k in 1971, 2nd buyer paid $120k in 1980, 3rd buyer paid $357k in 1999, and today our old house is worth about $800k!

    There's just no way incomes have gone up 2000% since 1971.

    Those numbers certainly aren't universal. An $800k house around here would be something very nice. My in-laws still live in the small 3 bedroom ranch they purchased in '73 in NW Indiana. They paid about $20k for it and it's worth about $100k today.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not to mention cable service

    True, but we have 100s of channels, on-demand, and a DVR.

    Remember when there was NBC, ABC, and CBS? Fox wasn't even around back then, but we had WDCA and PBS, so about 5 channels total. LOL

    Those were not the good ol' days. If you sent a modern kid in a time machine to the 1970s, they would scream and cry until you brought them back!
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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,115
    Back then, kids played outside, instead of staring at a Gameboy or the like in a stupor.

    There are so many things I miss from even the '70's. And I'm only 54.

    I tell my kids that I watched more TV when there were three networks than I do today. Far less dreck back then.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Remember when there was NBC, ABC, and CBS? Fox wasn't even around back then, but we had WDCA and PBS, so about 5 channels total. LOL

    I still have nightmares of hearing my name called and being told to turn the TV up or down, or change the channel. How did we survive? LOL

    If you sent a modern kid in a time machine to the 1970s, they would scream and cry until you brought them back!


    No doubt. My 10 year old daughter asked me the other day what Ipods were like when I was a kid. I googled a picture on a Sony Walkman and added that my parents never bought me one. The look on her face was priceless;)

    But to some, all of this so called progress is nothing more than sedating the masses;) Well I'm sedated and happy, what more could I ask for;)

    I'm not in the 1% club, but I believe the lifestyle I can comfortably afford would have required a 1% income a generation ago.
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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,690
    edited February 2013
    Remember when there was NBC, ABC, and CBS? Fox wasn't even around back then, but we had WDCA and PBS, so about 5 channels total. LOL

    Where we're situated, we got kinda lucky...got all the DC stations and most of the Baltimore. NBC was channel 2 in Baltimore, 4 in DC. ABC was 7 in DC, 13 in Balt. CBS was 9 in DC, 11 in Balt. DC also had channels 5 (WTTG) and 20 (WDCA), which were local. 5 is now Fox, and I think 20 is WB or UPN or something like that.

    I remember Channel 50 being a bit of a latecomer. Channel 45 in Baltimore held some mystique for me, because it played Speed Racer reruns until around 1984. However, sometimes it would come in clear, sometimes it wouldn't. Then there was Channel 54, which would show old reruns of Private Benjamin, etc, and then convert over to Super TV around 8:00 PM.

    I sort of remember a Channel 24 coming onto the scene sometime in the 1980's. I remember them playing old Honeymooners and Twilight Zone reruns. I think later in the decade, it became the Home Shopping Channel?

    22 and 26 were public television channels, and I think 32 as well.

    Those were not the good ol' days. If you sent a modern kid in a time machine to the 1970s, they would scream and cry until you brought them back!

    Funny thing is, back in those days, when the tuner only went up to 83 or whatever, I used to think of all that wasteland, just waiting to be cracked open and developed, populated by new tv channels.

    Today, we have hundreds, or even thousands of channels, but often I'll turn on the tv and there's nothing but crap on! So in some ways, it still IS a wasteland!
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    There's less socio-economic mobility than 30 or 60 years ago now, I'd wager. The cost of schooling and everyday living has created a stumbling block.

    But hey, we have "free trade" and an ever-growing Praetorian Class, so it's all good.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    edited February 2013
    US is the only developed nation in the world with such an idiotic high drinking age law. You can find beer in vending machines in Germany, and wine is commonly served to the younger set at family meals.

    If the monies used for enforcement of such useless laws could be diverted to apprenticeship and training programs for industrial workers and other trades (as seen in real first world locations), maybe the devolution wouldn't be so severe. It might help American-based automakers, too.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    Society provided? I thought the mantra of the "could have saved us" crowd is "I built this" :shades:

    When you were a teen, a color TV was for the rich, a car with FI and disc brakes was an unfathomable exotic. Technological trickle down over time can be confusing.
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Back then, kids played outside, instead of staring at a Gameboy or the like in a stupor.

    There are so many things I miss from even the '70's. And I'm only 54.



    Honestly, I really don't miss much from the 70's (I was under 10 then) and 80's.

    As far as kids today, that is the parents fault as much as anything. Using a TV or Xbox as a parenting device is a bad idea.

    That's why we go to the lake on summer weekends. No cable TV (just the air waves) or Wi-fi for two days, and no gaming consoles. Our kids actually run, swim, and water ski/wake board etc with other kids out in the heat. It actually reminds me of how I grew up a bit. Granted we don't rough it, the RV has A/C, and we have plenty of expensive toys to play with.

    We come home on Sunday evening and don't see a soul outside.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    But is the high ranking high salaried investment being any more productive? So much "leadership" today is a one trick pony - offshore/outsource at any cost, no matter the consequences. Just widening the chasm even more.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    I'd expect an experienced manager with so much assumed credibility to be able to say more than something being "simplistic". But a certain generation is known to kind of be hypocritical empty suits who aren't able to ante up or practice what they preach. Thanks for your legacy, you won't be forgotten.

    More middle managers and consultants, that's what GM needs! :shades:
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    As far as kids today, that is the parents fault as much as anything

    You're both right. Gary's point explains the obesity epidemic, and it is up to the parents.

    My kids do basketball, track, ballet, hip-hop dance, flag football, and more. They stay fit and it keeps them busy and out of trouble. Our car pool schedule is insane.

    You have to instill good habits, though. Now my daughter wants to add soccer...her initiative not ours.
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    tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    US is the only developed nation in the world with such an idiotic high drinking age law. You can find beer in vending machines in Germany, and wine is commonly served to the younger set at family meals.

    And I believe it's true that since alcohol is allowed at a young age in Germany, it's not such a taboo coming-of-age thing and therefore there is very little binge drinking in the late teens like we see in this country, and overall a lower level of alcohol-related societal issues.

    Yep, that high drinking age and the war on drugs are doing us a whole lot of good. Probably means German auto workers are more sober than their UAW counterparts, too. I wonder if the European unions protect druggy workers like they do in the US?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    German auto workers are more sober than their UAW counterparts

    What about those Chrysler employees drinking at lunch? I mean, come on...
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Our car pool schedule is insane.

    Ours too. I know as a kid, we never had a schedule like my kids have. It is crazy. I easily drive over 100 miles a week just shuttling kids around to their various activities.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My in-laws still live in the small 3 bedroom ranch they purchased in '73 in NW Indiana. They paid about $20k for it and it's worth about $100k today.

    I just bought a 2500 sq ft house on an acre of land for $26k in So Indiana. With about $30k in upgrades it will be worth about $100k+. Last appraisal for taxes was $108k. The beauty being wages in that area are comparable to here where you still cannot buy a fixer for under $300k. Location is key to survival in this devolving society.

    25" Zenith console in 1972 for around $700

    And it was MADE IN THE USA. Now there are NO TVs that are 100% made in the USA. And that is why the manufacturing sector is dying in this country. What is made in USA that people want? The highest US content autos keep going down. Only one car has 80% US content, the Toyota Avalon. So you want the most American that is your choice. A few have 75% and it heads south from there.
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    Yep, that high drinking age and the war on drugs are doing us a whole lot of good.

    Well that we can agree on. Completely ridiculous. You can enlist in the armed forces and vote, yet can't be trusted with alcohol?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's see... Rec practice Monday, Junior High School practice/games Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, then Rising Stars practice on Friday, rec game on Saturday and Rising Stars games on Sunday (plus a couple on Saturday).

    That's just basketball. :D

    Thankfully we are walking distance to school. She's worn out a couple of pairs of those, though! :D
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Location is key to survival in this devolving society.

    True, the low cost of living here in the midwest is a big reason why we have enough disposable income for our recreational activities.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    edited February 2013
    You're exactly right - less societal costs from soft substance issues when people can learn their limit and not over-do it because of taboo thinking. I am pretty sure a beer at lunch is actually permitted in many German factories. But, they know there's a difference between that and being sloshed while nailing doors onto a minivan.

    I doubt it is much of an issue for European unions, at least in Germany, as workers simply get along better with their employer than in much of the US. They wouldn't dare not be sober, out of pride.
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    They wouldn't dare not be sober, out of pride.

    Well maybe they all don't have to much pride;)

    I know this is old news, but I guess these German workers weren't so impressed with their wage and benefit package;)

    http://jalopnik.com/5702193/bmw-workers-steal-4-million-in-parts-to-sell-on-inte- - rnet
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    You don't want a Bavarian car built in late September, either :shades:

    Generally better worker/manager relations can do a lot when it comes to pride and amicable behavior. I wonder what kind of shrinkage occurs at D3 operations. Maybe less in second world places where there's an armed thug at the door.
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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,115
    Sorry, I think drinking in high school is incredibly stupid, and that's what this one German kid was doing, with his father's OK. When he got into other legal trouble, that was what made our advisor decide to 'send him back'.

    And I think we're delirious if we think there aren't Germans drinking while on the assembly line.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    And I think we're delirious if we think there aren't Germans drinking while on the assembly line.

    I would agree. I'd be curious to see how the unions in Europe handle such situations. I've talked to a UAW workers about 10 years ago who blatantly bragged about how he could drink at the GM plant he worked at and that he wouldn't be fired for it.

    I know some union professions take such issues seriously. I know for a fact you won't be employed long as a Teamster operating engineer/heavy equipment operator if you show up drunk and some job sites have random screenings. You fail, you're gone.

    http://www.mdt.mt.gov/safety/docs/taskforces/ojjdp_feb01.pdf

    The differences between the US in regards to alcohol consumption is debatable.

    I use to have neighbors that were 2nd generation German Americans and man did they drink. If I was at their house for a party, they always ended up drunk.

    Sorry, I think drinking in high school is incredibly stupid
    You're probably right, but I don't know how effective our drinking and drug laws are and even more debatable is how much we spend on such issues.
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I'll say this about Germans and drinking... There's far less drinking and driving in Germany than here. They take that crap SERIOUSLY there...
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I know some union professions take such issues seriously. I know for a fact you won't be employed long as a Teamster operating engineer/heavy equipment operator if you show up drunk and some job sites have random screenings. You fail, you're gone.

    The oil companies are very strict. BP randomly tested and searched rooms for booze and drugs. Zero tolerance was their policy.

    Looks like German consumption of alcohol is much higher than the USA. And it is much cheaper there as well. That must be how they keep the people happy. Here we give them smartphones.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    Maybe they handle their booze better? :shades:

    I've never seen a legit reason why drinking at 18 should be taboo, but I guess that's something for another forum. I will flatly state that the monies burned on underage drinking enforcement could be put to better use. Maybe instead of hounding kids about outdated puritanical drinking insanity, the money could be used to give them job training - a system which barely exists in the US, and diminishes national competitiveness.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    They get smartphones too - their plans are also often cheaper :shades:
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    They get smartphones too - their plans are also often cheaper

    I didn't think in Europe they had many subsidized phone plans. Is that not the case?
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    tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I didn't think in Europe they had many subsidized phone plans. Is that not the case?

    I believe that in most of Europe the phones are bought at full retail and are unlocked. The users are free to jump between carriers on month to month plans. The phones are more of course but the service is a lot cheaper. It ends up being less over time, even with the higher upfront cost of the phones.

    I've recently switched my entire family to unlocked phones on no-contract plans. Not going to let a company lock me in. That's why I don't like OnStar as an idea - I generally rebel against monthly fees more than upfront capital costs. Most companies seem to be trying to find ways to get a regular monthly amount out of our pockets.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Siriusously?
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    dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The Civic is made here (by robots). I rode 3 hrs in one this week and forgot my ear plugs. Shouting was required to talk to people in the front seats due to road noise on I-70.
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    tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Siriusously?

    Ha! Actually my car has XM. I subscribed for a couple of years and decided it wasn't worth it. I listen to my own music and free podcasts now.

    I also dumped my local phone carrier for a VOIP connection. :P

    I'm surprised that auto companies don't do something like the aircraft industry - for example some jet engines are sold as "power by the hour". A fixed price including all maintenance and repairs, by the hour. You could do that for a car - something like Full Service Per Mile. You just pay a certain fee by mile and then get all maintenance and everything fixed whenever you need on your car. Would actually be a great marketing tool for some maker. If GM or one of the D3 really wanted to stand out, they could offer this. Think of the advertising they could do.
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I'm surprised that auto companies don't do something like the aircraft industry - for example some jet engines are sold as "power by the hour". A fixed price including all maintenance and repairs, by the hour. You could do that for a car - something like Full Service Per Mile. You just pay a certain fee by mile and then get all maintenance and everything fixed whenever you need on your car. Would actually be a great marketing tool for some maker. If GM or one of the D3 really wanted to stand out, they could offer this. Think of the advertising they could do.

    Kinda like Zipcar, isn't it?
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Sorry, I think drinking in high school is incredibly stupid, and that's what this one German kid was doing, with his father's OK.

    Depends, IMO... Responsible behavior, and being taught how to drink responsibly, such as a glass of wine or a beer with a meal, seems reasonable and rational to me. Drinking a 12-pack at one sitting doesn't make much sense, regardless go ones age.

    When he got into other legal trouble, that was what made our advisor decide to 'send him back'.

    Hmmm... That's telling... Everyone who drinks doesn't commit criminal acts. I grew up in a German family (I'm 3-rd generation), and it was normal for us to have a beer at night with a meal when I was as young as 15-16. Again, a single beer, not a case. I've never committed any criminal acts, other than a speeding ticket when I was 17. My father saw it as teaching us responsible drinking habits, rather than have his kids learn it from other teenagers.

    The case you described makes me wonder if the kid was bound for trouble, with or without the drinking. Still, I don't disagree with his decision to shed the kid and send him back.
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    from the past: "Yep. Dad paid $40k in 1971, 2nd buyer paid $120k in 1980, 3rd buyer paid $357k in 1999, and today our old house is worth about $800k!

    There's just no way incomes have gone up 2000% since 1971."

    WE talk about why we used to have only one parent working, and now we need two incomes just to make ends meet...I think part of it is because items like cars, and especially houses, now cots so much more than they did 30 years ago, and the price increase in real estate has gone up much more than salaries...those who bought a 40K house in the 60s for one salary could never buy the $800K house today...

    So, the question really is, has our consumption increased so much over the past (now we have the bigger houses, more MBs and BMWs than ever before, starphone bills at $200/month as opposed to a landline phone in the past for $20/month) that we cannot pay for it with one salary???...is that the fault of salaries that "fail to keep up" or the fact that we are spedning our money on more things we just "cannot live without" but have to figure out a way to pay for them

    Houses, boats, motorcycles, smartphones, cable/NFL package bills, BMWs instead of Chevys and Fords, it all adds up...so, while we lament that one salary cannot afford this much, we didn't have "this much" to buy years ago...it isn't salaries that have not kept up, it is the fact that we want more things than we can afford, but no one wants to admit that they won;t buy the kids and Xbox ...

    It isn't that we don;t earn enough, we simply insist on spending more and refuse to cut back
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    tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    So, the question really is, has our consumption increased so much over the past (now we have the bigger houses, more MBs and BMWs than ever before, starphone bills at $200/month as opposed to a landline phone in the past for $20/month) that we cannot pay for it with one salary???...is that the fault of salaries that "fail to keep up" or the fact that we are spedning our money on more things we just "cannot live without" but have to figure out a way to pay for them

    Bingo!
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited February 2013
    I think there is a lot of validity in those comments, but I also think it over simplifies matters a bit by ignoring some other variables. Globalization of jobs has in many cases stagnated, or even lowered, middle class and lower incomes to salary growth rates often behind inflation. Permanent unemployment seems stuck at a much higher rate. While globalization has often lowered product costs, that can sometimes be misleading due to how those savings are calculated. For example, appliances and TV's cost less in today's prices until you consider the Chinese quality factor that often significantly reduces the product lifespan. I just had a repair guy here for my refrigerator. He noted that the average lifespan for the compressor is now around 7 years versus often 20 or better a decade ago. I doubt most of us will get anywhere near 20 years on our new (often made in China) TV's. So even if the new selling price is half of that a deacde or two ago in adjusted dollars, if the item only lasts a third as long without repair or replacement, it actually costs significantly more over a lifetime. The investment game has been stacked against the middle class by Wall Street deregulation. Wide open commodities trading has artifically jacked up prices for things like gasoline. Insiders have huge advantages against every one else in stock and bond trades. Meanwhile, throw in that the federal reserve has effectively stacked artifically low interest rates on the economy. Great for those with wealth that want to margin trade (which unregulated and uncontrolled has a tendency to overstate ups and downs), but it is another headwind against average working people trying to invest and save for things like their kid's education or retirement, and a cause (albeit not the only one) for commodity price spikes. So yes, people need to be responsible and cut back at times, but I don't think lack of consumer control entirely explains the economic predicament of today's middle and lower class. At least that's just my 2 cents today.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    edited February 2013
    Valid but oversimplified, yes. Some consumers are reckless, but there is more at play.

    Don't forget the relative costs of fuel, (healthy) food, housing, education, medical, et al - not to mention any notion of retirement savings for those of us who can't see that light in the tunnel yet. Wage growth has trailed the price escalation of those factors to an insane degree. Trickle up economics.
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    tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Don't forget the relative costs of fuel, (healthy) food, housing, education, medical, et al - not to mention any notion of retirement savings for those of us who can't see that light in the tunnel yet.

    I thought that I'd read that in inflation-adjusted dollars, the price of fuel is right around where it was 30 years ago.

    I guess that's a too-tenuous fact, though. :shades:
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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,115
    I wish it were back to where it was forty years ago, not thirty. A lot changed in those ten years in that regard.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Relatively speaking, whether or not gas is similar today from 30 years ago after inflation, I think something else comes into play - supply. We have a heck of a lot more today here than back then. China demand is still strong, but a lot of their oil comes from the Middle East unlike here any more (and why are we spending so much money over there again protecting the gulf shipping lanes for Europe and Asia?). Oklahoma is choking on stored oil right now. I said it before and I'll say it again - give me an aircraft and a thermal sight and I'll lay you odds that many of those refinery storage tanks are pretty full right now! These games got all out of control after we totally deregulated commodities trading - and it happened as much under Clinton and Gore as under the republicans. A classic case of Wall Street money controlling Washington and every one in power selling out the middle class for their own personal gain.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,179
    Nice pick and choose. You mean gas prices in the crash after the second shortage? And where did it trend from there? I'll wager a lot it's not going to trend in the same direction from here. Or how has it compared vs wages over the past 5 years vs the past 30-35? Or 40 or more? And then again, how about food, housing, medical, education, retirement and more? Tenuous, indeed.

    When more experienced types whine about cheaper technology, they ignore the historical trend of technology aging and becoming more affordable over time. Or when others of the so-hardworking generation mention more are buying certain cars, they fail to grasp that the population is also higher, and said cars are cheaper than ever, and financing better than ever for those with decent credit. Apples to oranges issues with the issues I mentioned earlier.
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    greg128greg128 Member Posts: 529
    It isn't that we don;t earn enough, we simply insist on spending more and refuse to cut back

    That goes for our entire country...and it is unsustainable:

    national debt visualization
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I rode 3 hrs in one this week and forgot my ear plugs. Shouting was required to talk to people in the front seats due to road noise on I-70.

    I spent two weeks in a 2010 Honda Accord rental. They are also very noisy. I think Honda has pulled the wool over a lot of eyes.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I thought that I'd read that in inflation-adjusted dollars, the price of fuel is right around where it was 30 years ago.

    30 years ago we were just recovering from 15% per year inflation. I know in 1960 I paid 19 cents a gallon. In today's dollars it is less than $1.50. I do have fuel records from 1979 and we filled the tank on the farm with diesel for $1.57 per gallon. Which in today's money would be $5.32 per gallon. BUT, oil was $30+ per barrel. Within 5 years it was back at $9 per barrel. Cars and housing has gone up more than fuel the last 50 years.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The case you described makes me wonder if the kid was bound for trouble, with or without the drinking. Still, I don't disagree with his decision to shed the kid and send him back.

    We have friends that took in a Japanese exchange student. He was NOTHING but trouble from day one. Came from a very wealthy family and felt he could do as he pleased. He got sent packing. I am not buying that foreign cultures are doing a better job with kids these days.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    At least that's just my 2 cents today.

    I think your 2 cents makes a lot of sense. :)
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