Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

wheels_r_super

"Well, would you buy a car from a company that is making money hand over fist, and talking about cutting pay and benefits for their employees? That's exactly what's happening in Georgetown, Ky., and they may be headed for unionization."

If that happens, you will see the price go up and/or the quality continue to go down on the Camry and it will be replace in CR and at Edmonds by another best buy: The Hyundi or one of the others racing to beat Toyota in price and quality.
That may not be the answer you were looking for.

As for cheap labor, my pay is based on what the competition has to pay for the same job (To the penny). They then add to that for performance, but not much.
So, in effect, my pay is tied to what everyone else makes.
I can't threaten to shut my company down if I don't like what they think I am worth. Even worse, if the company sees an employee is unhappy, the raises go down even more as the company does not care for unhappy employees. With a good union that avenue of protection for the company may not exist. Can you see why a buyer of their products might be concerned?

chetj

white collar benefits are more than blue collar which is not widely known...both sides are overpaid..i work at a big 3 and toyota supplier and we make 15$ an hour...which is similar to the new delphi contract...and no jobs bank or pension either, just 401 k...i want to see the american companies do well but i think we need more of the asian work ethic..i married a filipino, i feel asians are better workers than us for most part..we are living off our past..i went by a GM engine plant in tonawanda, NY and i was happy and proud that my sunfire ecotec engine was made there..it made me feel good to help them have a job..many americans dont care about that...at least there are quite a few toys and hondas assembled here like tundra, tacoma, matrix, accord camry,some honda suvs, merecedes suvs, nissan titan among others...i think it is important for the domestic auto industry to do well...why take a backseat to anyone when it comes to a good car?..anyways, i am sick of buying asian stuff, i try to at least buy things made on this continent..one of these days china and india will be top dogs and our ancestors will wonder why we didnt do more to keep america strong

cooterbfd

If that happens, you will see the price go up and/or the quality continue to go down on the Camry

Not necessarily so. Remember the THREAT of unionization has to do with the THREAT of a paycut. Not because they are overpaid, as they make more per hr., yet less in bennies than their union counterparts, but because they make more than the average (non automotive) laborer in Kentucky. They have an opportunity to stand up to Toyota if they so choose.

With a good union that avenue of protection for the company may not exist.

Whith a GOOD (emphasis on good, not corrupt) union that avenue MAY not be necessary, as employees will be compensated well, boosting morale.
Remember, the VAST majority of us in the workplace are good, decent, hard working people (as I assume you are). There are some who would stab their mother in the back to get ahead, as well as those who think the world owes them a living. Theoretically, a good union will protect you from the former (as they could wind up as your boss), and keep you from getting swept up with the latter.

gagrice

There are some who would stab their mother in the back to get ahead

99% of that type personality are in management or are trying to get into management. At least that was my experience over 45 years in the communications industry. Most workers like myself want and expect a decent wage commensurate with the health of the company we are working for.

If Union workers are not doing their job it is up to the shop stewards and business agents to straighten them out. It is usually obvious to their peers long before management has a clue.

The biggest problem I see in this country with companies like Toyota and Walmart is part time abuse. We need laws limiting how long an employer can string people along as part time without benefits. Those two mentioned employers are notorious for stringing part time employees along for YEARS. If the employer cannot determine if a person is what they need in 90 days it is a management problem.

cooterbfd

45 years in the communications industry.

A phone guy??? Like me???

I agree about the PT abuse. It has it's place in industry for those who need it (both management and employees), but that is also how they control the workforce. Shame.

imidazol97

Injured workers/not needed workers Georgetown

More info

There was a meeting about the practices near Lexington a few months ago. I can't find the report in the Lexington/Cincinnati papers yet.

These techniques of not reporting injuries and letting people go if they're not 100% physically able are the level of abuses that lead to unions gaining strength decades ago. With the leaked memo about reducing wages in the plant, exclusive of part timers getting reductions at half-pay, I would think the workers would be getting interested in their futures, especially as they get older one year at time until they're not longer 30 and totally physically able.

I viewed the promo video on the website for a plant tour. The one thing I noticed was how fast and hurried the movements of the workers appeared. It may have been they were just hamming for the video but now I wonder if they are pressured to work at that pace which appeared too fast for safety and comfort.

tour video

grbeck

Yes, two union-based websites are certainly not biased, and would never twist these stories against Toyota in any way, shape or form.

And we whine about bias in Consumer Reports.

Thanks for the amusement on a Monday morning.

Next, let's post reviews of Chevy dealers rating Toyotas.

gagrice

I think you are glossing over the problem. Part time workers in this country are costing us all money. Companies like Toyota are getting fat by not paying any benefits to part time workers. If this Congress is concerned about healthcare for our citizens they need to address some of the problems. In 45 years on the job I always had healthcare paid. Both as a Union and a non_union worker. It is a long established benefit that is being undermined by big business to increase profits.

Restrict the use of Part time workers and you will cut the cost of medical benefits covered by welfare.

jd10013

If the asians built the product or performed the service you perform at $3/hr, how would you be able to afford your new car???

the labor unions in japan are actually stonger than those in the US. Nobody in japan works for $3 an hour. and in japan, layoffs, plant closings are considered taboo, and very seldom occur. the only advantage the japanees have over US companies is bennifits. In japan, retirement, health care ect are taken care of by the government. It a sizeable expense the big 3 US companies have that the japaneese dont'.

imidazol97

>Thanks for the amusement on a Monday morning

Like I said I couldn't come up with the links to the newspaper articles. But in your haste you probably missed that part. Perhaps you can do a search and find them for yourself so you don't have to worry about 'bias.'

Haven't I asked that you just scroll over my posts because your retorts are always useless.

imidazol97

There's a bigger factor to the pattern. As workers here age, they'll be thrown out the door and replaced by new lower paid workers. There's no job security for anyone over 40. Perish the thought that they'd have a medical problem that might add expense and up the cost of healthcare for the (40%?) of the employees that are full time. I recall reading 40% somewhere but l'll leave that for someone to verify with a nonbiased source.

robertsmx

I think you nailed the problem with GM and Ford and Chrysler. Blame Toyota and Honda for causing them trouble.

gagrice

Nice try. There is a lot more to the problems with the Big 3 than paying healthcare. I am pointing out the fact that Toyota is avoiding paying its employees a living wage by keeping them part time. Unions have limits to part time workers for a good reason.

I am not an advocate of government sponsored healthcare. That leaves the individual to buy their own or the company to pay part or all of the premium. Keeping employees healthy and at work is good for both. If Honda, Nissan, BMW & Mercedes are abusing the part time workers in the USA, as Toyota is, then I include them also.

imidazol97

Toyota Georgetown part timer treatment

Would this happen to a Toyota worker in Japan?

grbeck

gagrice: Restrict the use of Part time workers and you will cut the cost of medical benefits covered by welfare.

Restrict the use of part-time workers and you'll have lots of people out of A job, period. All that will do over the long run is encourage companies to invest more in automation to reduce as many positions as possible.

Virtually every company I've seen uses part-time workers - not just Toyota.

GM, Ford and Chrysler do it, too, by the way.

gagrice: Restrict the use of Part time workers and you will cut the cost of medical benefits covered by welfare.

Restrict the use of part-time workers and you'll increase unemployment over the long run, which means that the people will be staying on the medical plans provided by state government.

Incidentally, the UAW has been pushing for nationalized health care, so they have no interest in reducing the government's role in providing healthcare to people.

Neither, for that matter, do GM, Ford and Chrysler, who would love the government to assume their healthcare obligations to both current employees and retirees.

imidazol97

>Restrict the use of Part time workers and you will cut the cost of medical benefits covered by welfare.

The governments should have an interest in doing that at various levels of government to reduce the reliance on social services as a way of life and a way of medical care, at great expense.

A company reducing the number of part time workers will employ more fulltime workers to do the job. A friend of ourse just went through this with a small, honest company as he changed jobs. But in this case the company wanted him even though he was hired after two part time, seasonal employees. When one or both of the younger workers quit because of whatever reason, he then was able to become a full time employee. But usually it's the other way around.

grbeck

imidazol97: Like I said I couldn't come up with the links to the newspaper articles. But in your haste you probably missed that part. Perhaps you can do a search and find them for yourself so you don't have to worry about 'bias.'

You brought up the point, so one would logically assume that you would have more proof to back up those assertions than a union-based website.

Many of us have the sneaking suspicion that a union-based website might just twist the facts (or leave out key facts that will cast these workers in a different light) against a company that has successfully operated without a union for years.

imidazol97: Haven't I asked that you just scroll over my posts because your retorts are always useless.

Yes, and I'm ignoring it, because I'll decide what posts I respond to.

bumpy

As workers here age, they'll be thrown out the door and replaced by new lower paid workers. There's no job security for anyone over 40.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't think it's wise for either the automaker or its employees to have people over 40-45 on the floor doing monotonous, physically demanding work.

fezo

Nice article. 2004. Very timely.

I'm sure President Kerry is right on it.

gagrice

Virtually every company I've seen uses part-time workers - not just Toyota.


I am pointing out the ones that make it to the newspaper as flagrant abusers of part time employees. WalMart and Toyota lead the pack. Part time work is fine for those that only want a part time job. When it is used as a large percentage of the workforce to avoid paying benefits it is not good for the employees or our country.

xrunner2

I can buy a new GMC PU built by Union labor in Indiana or a new Toyota PU built in San Antonio by non-union labor. The big difference is most of the money from the Toyota ends up in a Tokyo bank. While the GMC workers share in the profits of their labor. And I get a superior truck from the Union laborer. At least a solid trouble free engine and transmission which the Tundra has not proven to have.

To what extent is the truck superior because of union labor? Assuming the GMC truck is superior (to Toyota), is that really due to GMC design and engineering? Could non-union labor build/assemble a GMC truck that would be indistinguishable from a union built truck? Doesn't GM and other American brand car companies provide the training/skills to the union persons to build the vehicles? Or do the unions provide some types of additional training/skills to its members that enhances the build/assembly of American branded vehicles?

jd10013

Part time work is fine for those that only want a part time job. When it is used as a large percentage of the workforce to avoid paying benefits it is not good for the employees or our country.

that article said 12%. Doesn't seem like an overly large percentage to me. And like the article also said, $12+ in kentucky, (a couple years ago at that), isn't bad money.

kdhspyder

There was a reference to an article, in this thread I believe, from a former temp worker at a Toyota plant in Japan discussing the situation since he left. He was discussing the situation with a current temp worker who was let go.

Can't find the link though.

gagrice

Actually of the 5 GM trucks I have owned since 1988 the only one I am sure was built in the USA is the current 2005 GMC Hybrid. My 1988 GMC could have been built here also. The two Chevy 3/4 ton were built in Canada and the Suburban in Mexico.
All American made I might add. The money stays here not in a Japanese bank.
I say Superior because I had very few warranty problems compared to the Toyota vehicles I have owned. There are major problems with the current Tundra, Toyota's shot at world domination.

robertsmx

There is a lot more to the problems with the Big 3 than paying healthcare.

Of course! One that we have a tendency to forget is long term vision (or lack of) and a classic example is the market segment they chose to chase.

I can buy a new GMC PU built by Union labor in Indiana or a new Toyota PU built in San Antonio by non-union labor. The big difference is most of the money from the Toyota ends up in a Tokyo bank. While the GMC workers share in the profits of their labor.

Since you have arrived at a conclusion, I am sure you couldn’t have done without real numbers. Care to share them? BTW, do you really believe that unless an employee is a part of a union, he/she doesn’t get profit sharing?

And I get a superior truck from the Union laborer.

And if the same worker moves on to work for Honda or Toyota, suddenly he/she would surely lose those superior skills, right? Or, are you simply undermining the skill set of non-union workers in Ohio and Kentucky and Texas? What about those temporary workers that GM hires so often, who are not a part of union?

I am pointing out the ones that make it to the newspaper as flagrant abusers of part time employees. WalMart and Toyota lead the pack. Part time work is fine for those that only want a part time job. When it is used as a large percentage of the workforce to avoid paying benefits it is not good for the employees or our country.

If 5.5% temp workforce by Toyota (5% by BMW) is flagrant abuse, what would you call 15% temp workforce by Delphi when the company hired 2000 last year?

gagrice

The profit is shared via a decent union contract. I see conflicting numbers on Toyota part time workers. I am sure they would like to muddy the waters to avoid legislation.

The superiority of the GM built truck is easy to track. It does not have as much to do with labor as it does design. The GM truck outpulls, outhauls and uses less gas than the comparable Tundra. All for less money. Four out of four should be good enough even for the most rabid GM bashers.

robertsmx

The profit is shared via a decent union contract.

So, no union, no profit sharing? True?

I see conflicting numbers on Toyota part time workers.

This didn't seem to be a problem until I mentioned it. Where are you getting the numbers from? Source?

The superiority of the GM built truck is easy to track.

Is that due to involvement of union? Why hasn't the same translated to cars?

imidazol97

> Why hasn't the same translated to cars?

It has translated to cars. I've had great cars from GM.

louiswei

I've had great cars from GM.

Good to hear that. However, have you driven any imports before? If so, what do you think of them?

robertsmx

So, why have trucks sold, and cars haven't? And when trucks aren't (as the market shift is suggesting since 2000), the big three are going down the drain.

gagrice

So, no union, no profit sharing? True?

No retirement benefits for part timers. I see your 5.5% and someone else posted 12%. I imagine it is a closely guarded secret by Toyota and the other companies. Not something to brag about.

You are going to have to ask someone else why GM trucks are superior and the cars are not. I don't like cars so I am not interested in doing the research. I on occasion will be stuck driving a sedan. It is always scary being on the highway with anything smaller than the LS400.

robertsmx

I got the 5.5% (calculated) from the largely political article from 2004 posted earlier. I didn't see 12% as the number, after all, 425 temp actually accounts for 5.2% which that article quoted.

After all that, are you telling me GM doesn't employ temp workers, and that if it does, it pays retirement benefits to them?

How in the world can you discuss a thing if you care about only half of the facts? I don't care about trucks but that doesn't mean I choose to be ignorant about them.

But for cars, the answer is simple. GM, Ford and Chrysler seem to live in their own world when it comes to offering products. Let us compare compact segment of cars, rank them by rated city mileage (best to worst), along with engine size, rated power and transmission.

1 Honda Civic (1.8-liter/140 HP/30 mpg/auto)
2 Toyota Corolla (1.8-liter/126 HP/30 mpg/auto)
3 Nissan Sentra (2.0-liter/140 HP/29 mpg/CVT)
4 Ford Focus (2.0-liter/136 HP/27 mpg/auto)
5 Dodge Caliber (2.0-liter/158 HP/26 mpg/CVT)
6 Chevrolet Cobalt (2.2-liter/148 HP/24 mpg/auto)

Take a guess... why are the offerings from Chrysler, Ford and GM at the bottom of the list? Does it have something to do with "priorities"? If it is, I would say, they have it wrong.

jd10013

the 12% is the amount of the US workforce that is either temp, part time, or whatever. But here's the bottom line on this:

Manufacturing (especially auto) is a great occupation that pays excellent, has the best non government bennifits, lifetime job security, and some of the best union representation available that will gaurantee you are treated well.

IF YOU LIVE IN 1960

The bottom line is, with advancements in computer, and robotics, most manufacturing jobs have become low skill, menial, kind of jobs. The old grey mare ain't what she used to be.

There are plenty of full time, high paying jobs out there. If you want them though, your going to have to get some additional education after graduation, and you going to have to go into a growing field like technology. The bar has been raised. employers will no longer pay someone $35 an hour + $20 an hour in bennifits to stick an air filter on an engine as it passes down the assembly line.

robertsmx

the 12% is the amount of the US workforce that is either temp, part time, or whatever

Now that the Washington Post's website is up, I got the piece where that 12% thingy came from...

An Oct. 11 article on temporary employment incorrectly said that the Labor Department classifies 12.1 percent of the workforce as "contingent workers." Some of the workers in that 12.1 percent are employed in what the department classifies as "alternative work arrangements" -- a category that includes temporary employees, independent contractors, on-call workers and contract company workers.

That is to correct the article since it referred to Mr Hicks incorrectly as a contingent worker. A definition of "contingent worker" was hence provided.

gagrice

I would say the difference is how long a person is strung along as a temp or part time worker. If the Big 3 are keeping people as part time for years as it is alleged Toyota is doing I say they should be slapped also.

I don't think folks are as interested in fuel economy as you think they are. The top car on your list the Civic is in 5th place sales wise this year. Three relative gas guzzlers have sold more cars. Including the large size Impala. If given my choice of any of the five I would take the Impala. I am as interested in comfort as I am gas mileage.

More people are interested in Trucks & SUVs from my vantage point of the country. Through May of this year the top 5 cars sold about 794k units. That same time period the top 5 trucks sold 855k units. That is in a crappy year for trucks and a big year for small cars.

I don't think you have your finger on the pulse of the nation. Folks are starting to realize they are shooting themselves in the foot buying products from other countries. Starting with cars and oil. At best these Japanese vehicles have less than 50% content, that is US made and assembled. Add to that all the media coverage of Toyota becoming the big dog in the auto world and things are going to start looking different. In spite of a handful of pro HonToy people that think it has to have a Japanese name to be any good.

imidazol97

I just watched a TV story about importing Chinese built cars into the US and how China treats cars from US being imported into China. They have a 25% tariff. Tariff on thei cars coming into US is 2.5% The Chinese currency is undervalued 40% (thanks Clinton and Bushes). There lies the real problem.

gagrice

Better get your self a wheel barrow to carry enough money for a loaf of bread. If we ever lose control of the Middle East oil as far as the price being based on US dollars we are going to be in deep doo doo.

imidazol97

There was something else in the story about companies building cars there had to have the part fabricated there. They also had to share their technology and techniques with China and their car company.

Maybe we should require that here. Good idea. Perhaps congress can work on that instead trying to play politics in DC.

gagrice

The Chinese are far from pushovers when it comes to business. I will be curious to see how Chrysler makes out with them. GM has done pretty well playing the game by their rules. I think the Buick built in China is very popular. Cerberus may go in thinking they will make a killing and end up giving the farm away. Hopefully Jeep gets spun off here. I don't want a Jeep made in China. That is if they ever build a diesel Wrangler for US consumers.

robertsmx

I would say the difference is how long a person is strung along as a temp or part time worker. If the Big 3 are keeping people as part time for years as it is alleged Toyota is doing I say they should be slapped also.

Do you have numbers to support your claims? If you don't, why is it even a point in contention? "Ifs" and "but ifs" don't make for logical arguments.

The top car on your list the Civic is in 5th place sales wise this year. Three relative gas guzzlers have sold more cars. Including the large size Impala.

And suddenly you're trying to paint a very rosy picture using the wrong brush. So, GM isn't really struggle to "sell" cars, is it? Whats the problem again?

More people are interested in Trucks & SUVs from my vantage point of the country.

Wonderful. So, whats the problem, again? SUVs and trucks are selling like never before. The bean counters in Detroit don't seem to be aware of blossoming truck market. They are liars, who just told us all that truck market dipped 25% off their accounts. Right?

At best these Japanese vehicles have less than 50% content, that is US made and assembled.

Tell that to people employed (directly AND indirectly) by Japanese and European automakers building cars in the USA. Besides, if you can't compete in terms of quality, you deserve to be neglected. Sorry, but I'm not a buyer to be taken for granted. This is America, not North Korea.

If we ever lose control of the Middle East oil

Its rather amusing someone against imports would be worried about (much less being a proponent of gas guzzlers).

british_rover

I couldn't find that fleet list that someone posted in another thread but I would bet a large number of those Impalas were sold as Fleet units.

imidazol97

>but I would bet a large number of those Impalas were sold as Fleet units.

And they serve very well in our area. It shows they area dependable and reliable unit. I suspect there are more of them in service than Crown Vics in this part of Ohio.

british_rover

I never said they were bad cars. I think the Impala is a fine car for what it is. They get decent gas mileage for their size, are fairly reliable and aren't to bad to work on.

My comment was directed at the attempt to make the Civic seem less popular because a larger less fuel efficient car sold more units then it.

gagrice

All I can say is you need to read posts more carefully before you respond.

SUVs and trucks are selling like never before.

My point was and is the top five selling trucks still sell better than the top five selling cars when the truck market is in the toilet. Five years ago they sold double what the top selling cars sold. Where I live you see more new trucks and SUVs than cars.

Tell that to people employed (directly AND indirectly) by Japanese and European automakers building cars in the USA.

I believe I did. They get parts from Japan and assemble them in a plant here. That is not made in America. When I assemble a kids bike it is from parts made in China. My assembling it here does not make it "Made in America".

Big oil and imported cars have so little in common I should not have to explain it to you. One of the few things that FDR did right was make an agreement to protect the Saudi Royal family into perpetuity. In exchange all Saudi oil will be sold for US dollars. Do you understand the ramifications if oil goes on the World market for any other currency besides ours? You may want to get your paycheck in Yen or Rubles. I don't.

Import Oil Not Cars. I like that slogan.

gagrice

Don't you think the fact that the Impala sells more than the Civic is significant? If people wanted to rent small econo boxes Avis would not be buying Impalas. Every where I go on vacation the big cars are rented first and the little trashy cars are sitting ready to go. I tried to rent an Escalade last time in Hilo and they were all rented. I got a Trailblazer which was fine just not what I wanted. I am glad GM sells cars to the rental agencies. I hate the Chrysler products they try to stick me with.

robertsmx

Mid-year fleet registration leaders (> 33% in fleet sales so far this year) among cars that sell in large volume...

Pontiac Grand Prix: 77.6%
Chrysler Sebring: 63.5%
Dodge Magnum: 60.9%
Chevrolet Malibu: 58.8%
Dodge Charger: 56.2%
Chevrolet Impala: 53.9%
Kia Optima: 52.8%
Chevrolet Monte Carlo: 46.5%
Dodge Caliber: 45.1%
Chrysler300: 44.0%
Ford Five Hundred: 43.1%
Mazda6: 42.7%
Chevrolet Cobalt: 39.7%
Pontiac G6: 36.2%
Mitsubishi Galant: 35.4%

stever

Here's a couple of recent fleet sales links:

psychogun, "Mitsubishi News" #421, 8 Jul 2007 7:49 pm

bumpy, "GM Is on The Offensive. Will it work?" #3890, 9 Jul 2007 11:34 am

robertsmx

I tried to rent an Escalade last time in Hilo and they were all rented. I got a Trailblazer which was fine just not what I wanted. I am glad GM sells cars to the rental agencies. I hate the Chrysler products they try to stick me with.

So you think GM should be putting Escalades on rental fleet just like it does many of its cars, like Impala? After all, GM is kinda stingy with Escalade in that regard, only 9%.

gagrice

Until I started hearing this rhetoric on Edmund's I was not aware that anyone was against cars sold to rental fleets. I always thought and still do that they buy what people want to rent. I rented instead of owning for four years in the 1980s. I mostly rented from Hertz. I rented a car for 3 weeks out of six weeks. that is 26 weeks per year when I was off from work. The reason being I traveled to all parts of the country. My favorite car was the Thunderbird. I put 1000s of miles with several cross country trips on those Hertz T-Birds. I never had a problem. I was never interested in a small car because the T-Bird always got 30+ MPG out on the road. Now the automakers think it is some big deal to have a car that gets 30 MPG. The number one selling Camry only gets 30 MPG on the Highway. What a joke that car is. Americans built cars in the 1980s that got better mileage. We don't need the Japanese to teach us how to build high mileage cars. We need ad agencies that know how to snow the public like the ones hired by Toyota.

robertsmx

My point was and is the top five selling trucks still sell better than the top five selling cars when the truck market is in the toilet.

I am reading your painting quite well... like I said, quite an attempt at making things rosy but with wrong brush. I compared cars within segment, you ignore it completely and talking overall sales. Sure, trucks still sell better. Then what problem are we discussing? Selling more can't be a bad thing, right?

They get parts from Japan and assemble them in a plant here. That is not made in America. When I assemble a kids bike it is from parts made in China. My assembling it here does not make it "Made in America".

I hope you don't ask your kids to pay you a salary so you can support your family. Those workers do get paid, thousands of them as a matter of fact. Whether they assemble parts or manufacture them is beside the point. Besides, would you rather see those factories opened in Mexico, China or Canada? You detest them, right?

Big oil and imported cars have so little in common I should not have to explain it to you

Of course. I haven't seen terrorism and war related to cars yet. But people are fighting for life for big oil. So, there IS a difference.

Import Oil Not Cars. I like that slogan.

I am sure you do. You must hate me for choosing to burn less oil.