What makes it worst lemko, is foreign company's are on capital hill and have a controlling interest in our country.
Add to this concern the number of American companies that have sent their computer programming to India. Maritz Inc. is ahead of that curve and has moved most of their programming back to the USA. However, think about the banking and credit industry who have sent their computer programming to India. While the labor is cheaper, most things have to be done three or four times because even though they speak English as a second language there is a language barrier. What concerns me is what they could do to our credit industry having all this control. Also, what about outsourcing customer service call centers to India? How many times do you call someone who says his name is "John" but you know his name is really something of Indian descent because he can't understand what you're saying. Dell is suffering greatly from this problem. They moved their corporate customer service back to the US but left their consumer call centers in India. Try talking to them when you have a problem. My wife and I did and finally wound up returning a $1500 computer to Dell. It can be done even though they say it can't. We have sold way too much control of our country to forein states who probably aren't even our friends. I hope in the next election something can be done about all this "free trade" which isn't free to us at all. I know many people here who would love to get a programmer job or a customer service call center job and they could do the job right the first time. We need leadership who will stop the selling of America.
I like I said before am glad a few americans are left that think the way you do pal. I feel our way of thinking can save american jobs like the ones we are losing in the automobile industry. Look at the quality of parts we are getting in our cars, or the shabby worksmanship some have gotten in their new vehicles. :sick:
My childrens future, the economic stability of our country, paying taxes, paying for my next meal, paying for my mortgage.. shall I go on? We are a debtor nation now. China owns millions or should I say billions in U.S. treasury bills to help our debt in this country. All these years of sending our wealth overseas has caught up to us and our childrens, children will be paying the bill with a minimum wage job! We need college and High School classes educating our children about what it really means to buy a foreign product and the short term gains and long term losses mean to our nation. This is no joke.. Get out on the net and educate yourself now!@ :surprise:
I'll buy an American car as soon as they start focusing on making a product that appeals to the customer better than the competition. Business isn't a charity: companies have to EARN money from those they sell to. American car companies forgot that for a long time and figured profits were simply their "due" instead.
American companies are capable of being competitive and operating at a profit. The ones that do succeed. The ones that don't, fail. The CEOs of these companies are the ones that need to be educated, so they realize why they SHOULD be succeeding, and so they can start succeeding. We have some of the most talented people in the WORLD when it comes to design, marketing, manufacturing, service, et cetra. If companies don't know how to use these resources properly, maybe outfits like GM SHOULD fail. Someone else will rise to take their place (Where's Preston Tucker when you need him?).
I agree that is in our best interests for domestic producers to succeed, but what IS a domestic producer? The once "big 3" are so entangled in third world sources and offshore ownership that "domestic" is a questionable label. Similarly, "offshore" auto companies are heavily invoved in domestic production, sourcing and/or ownership that many of their products are more "domestic" than many products offered by the once "big 3".
It is a global economy and any company must recognize that to compete.
Will Congress "level the playing field" by mandating that all products produced outside the USA have higher defect rates or be less desirable to consumers? That would really put the once "big 3" in deep stuff!
A Pontiac Vibe is a Toyota Matrix built in Fremont Ca. The GMC 1500 was built in Canada. Might still be. The Camry is built in America with more American parts than any other car according to a previous survey. The ole folks look at you real funny when you don't buy a Ford, Chevy, whatever. So what's a guy to do.
I'm going to get ripped on this one but here goes.
American Company cars are great if you are going to keep it for 10 years. To ask the trade in value can be a shocking experience. Trade in value as we know it is tied to how many of them are out there unsold when you are ready to do the same thing – sell one. And that number is related to 1. The actual or anticipated reliability of the vehicle at the time of sale. 2. Number sold to rental companies. Reasons: More problems means more people trying to get rid of them. Also: People sell vehicles anticipating problems before they happen. Also: Rental cars dumped on the market after the first year – Supply vs. Demand.
Honda limits production and maximizes durability. I got a Honda civic a while back. They didn’t budge on the price. But when it came time to sell, the buyers were waiting in line and the sale price stayed high. Even the buyer’s bank didn’t seem to care the price was high.
GM is planning to limit production now. But, can they get by dragging that big millstone they are stuck with called Legacy Overhead? It is not going away. I hope so but I don’t see how?
The Impala was a super car but at 20,000 dollars (after 3000 in rebates, the trade-in value in two years was 10,500. And that was extra low miles in showroom condition. No thanks - Time to try something else.
The Impala was a super car but at 20,000 dollars (after 3000 in rebates, the trade-in value in two years was 10,500. And that was extra low miles in showroom condition. No thanks - Time to try something else.
Yeah my last two "domestic" cars were puchased at 2 years old with under 25k for about half the cost of new. Both were very reliable on all accounts and 10 years later were pretty much worthless. Since the original purchase price was about half of new car cost, I wasn't too concerned.
I guess the resale thing depends on which side of it you are on. I am suprised CamCords do so well used, 1-2 years old they are only ~1500-2k less then a new one.
Take a look at the Pontiac Vibe. It now costs about the same as a Toyota Matrix. The Matrix still has a better trade-in value. It's the same car - a hatchback made on a Corolla chassis. Only difference is the skin and some instruments. One is made in CA and the other somewhere else. Both have identical drive trains, specs and CR survey rates them the same. The Vibe is seen as American. The Matrix is viewed as Japanese. But get this. Because of the runaway GM re-bate program in 04, I got a Vibe for 14,600. I drove it for 3+ years and still got a Toyota dealer to give me 10,400 for the Vibe. Not bad! Was that because the dealer believes they can sell the car quicker knowing the buyer knows it’s basically a Toyota? That's a possibility because many people do buy on “perceived reputation" vs. Price.
How you drive, how long you intend to keep the vehicle, how many were for sale when you were looking, all seem to make a difference in the final cost-out.
I wanted a Toyota but did not want to be seen in one, so got the Pontiac Vibe - Everything said Toyota including the oil filter, but except for the badge which said Pontiac. Dad was happy because it's American.
Now he's upset because I finally replaced it with a Camry. Now he blames me for putting Toyota ahead of GM in sales. Something about Pearl Harbor I think.
Wasn't the Japanese Zero fighter made by Mitsubishi? I know it wasn't a Toyota-Zero? Maybe the next time we attack Japan, we'll use Toyota Fighter planes built in Lordstown, Ohio??? It's your call!
There is a part of me that agrees with everything you said...our economic future, stability of our country, etc...
But there is another part of me that says that I should be able to buy quality and value where I find it...that concept, too, is American...I work hard for my money, and buying trash is as stupid as burning dollar bills in my fireplace...
And I feel that being blindly "patriotic" in our car purchases is what gave the Big 3 a "free ride" in the 70s and 80s to make and sell us junk that barely qualified as a boat anchor, yet they called it transportation...whether you blame management, unions or both, the product was crap...PERIOD...simply junk...two decades worth at least...that is a lot of squandered reputation, and American makers are still paying for violating our trust, and the American autoworker made his bed and now he is lying on it...they should have had the foresight to pay attention, but all the autoworker looks forward to is the next 3 year contract, quality be damned...
The real marketplace, which shows no bias except what the consumer is willing to pay, depreciates a vehicle made by Ford or GM by over 50% or more in 2 years...many Japanese makes and European makes do not depreciate as fast...
Why is it patriotic for me to, literally, throw my money away on by buying a Caddy for $52K today, only to sell it for $25K in 2 years, whereas the same money spent on an "import" (defined any way you want to) may only depreciate to $35K in two years...
Why should I lose an additional $10,000 in depreciation just to buy American and call myself patriotic???...why doesn't someone place the blame squarely where it belongs???...on the American carmakers, who make a product that the REAL MARKETPLACE recognizes as either 1) so overpriced when new that it loses value like a stone, or 2) so poorly made that it really will not last as long as the average Camry, Accord, etc...
Americans who do not want to buy junk and lose their buns on an American product are the ones who deserve the praise, not the ones who blindly buy domestic brands, just to keep their neighbor employed who spends his/her time manufacturing junk and trash...
If anyone is casuing the demise of our manufacturing base, it is, IMO, unions who demand exorbitant pay to perform work that is barely worth minimum wage...they have their union jobs, at least the few that are left, and fewer by the day...and management who is/are raping the companies for their golden parachutes, not caring if anything is left of the company except a corporate shell...
I may be wrong on this, but companies like Boeing, GE, Microsoft, DuPont, and others compete very well in the marketplace and are world-class leading companies...only the auto companies, and their feeder industries are in trouble, because the workers got arrogant, made junk (throwing beercans in the chassis before the body is dropped is NOT a management problem, it is a worker problem, and an even GREATER worker problem when that derelict worker cannot be removed from the line until 2 year's worth of union appeals are filed and argued) and expected us to buy it, yet they showed NO DESIRE to stop their rotten work habits when slammed in the face with declining sales and mounting job losses...
It may just take the disappearance of Ford to wake them up and stop taking the American consumer for granted, because we can take our money elsewhere, and we will...
While some preach the loss of the American manufacturing base, and it is true, the rest of us do not want junk in our driveways just because our neighbor makes it...our neighbor has to EARN our business, something they forgot 25 years ago...
If I buy something that depreciates 50% in two years, and falls apart in four, MY standard of living is now dramatically reduced because more of my income is being diverted to buy transportation that should have been as reliable as the Accord...so, either the auto worker loses his job and his standard of living, or I spend tens of thousands of dollars on junk that should have lasted years longer, which reduces MY standard of living that could have been used for a nicer home, better food, more vacations, etc....Don't forget all those workers in the vacation and food industry who ALSO depend on my spending for THEIR livlihoods, which I will not have the money to spend with them if all my money goes to replace depreciating automotive junk...
Does that make me less patriotic because I am willing to sacrifice the American autoworker to buy a competitor's product that is objectively better, according to the maketplace of depreciation...why can't the US worker make a better car and out-Honda the Honda???...that is where I believe the union welfare entitlement attitude comes into play, and, after 25 years of watching union membership cut by 2/3, the remaining unionites simply "just don't get it" and probably never will...
End of short rant...strong opinions to follow in next memo...:):):)
My girlfriend bought a Buick LaCrosse last year. Two + years and no problems. It is a much more attractive car than an Accord and she didn't have to take any attitude from a snotty, arrogant Honda dealer. Girlfriend says she would buy another Buick in a New York second.
If you were to spend $52K on a luxury car, why would you be getting rid of it in only two years? I've had my 2002 Seville STS for over five and I have absolutely no desire to trade it. I'm waiting for at least 2010 short of my car being stolen or wrecked. I could care less about depreciation as I keep my cars for a very long time. They must be pretty good if I can keep them this long as my other rides are a 1988 Buick Park Avenue and a 1989 Cadillac Brougham. Besides, buying a car I don't like just because it has better resale value is still throwing money away in my book.
I think the trouble is like. People like many things. If it were between two cars that I liked equally then resale and reputation would win me over. For instance I liked the styling on the yaris the most, the fit the least, and I even liked the styling on the focus and versa. However ford's bad reputation and their bad history sent me to the versa over the focus when the yaris was impratical.
As for Buick and Cadillac thoose are two brands that generally don't have a reputation for bad quality. So your experince is not surprising. However the trouble is Cadallic and Buick for the most part do not compete with Toyota or Honda. Chevy and Saturn do. About the only model that Buick competes with is the Toyota Avalon.
If you keep your cars that many years, great, as depreciation does not affect you...but when one does want to trade in 2-3 years, the domestic vehicle is often slammed with a dramatic loss of value...since you keep vehicles a decade, you are exempt from the problem, but it still exists for those who do not keep a car as long as you do...
Yeah, the lemko method works absolutely perfectly for lemko. If I were interested in the bigger cars I'd likely do the same.
Actually I do follow the keep it a long time school of thought. I ususally need a reasonably compelling reason to dump a car - either major mechanical problems or fear of impending ones. I'm always looking but only occasionally buying.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
That's why I get a little thing called "gap insurance." My girlfriend has it for her LaCrosse. I try not to finance the car for too long. My strategy is to take a 60-month note to keep the car payment low if, God forbid, I am sick or out of work, but pay it off in 36 months or less.
Yeah, gap insurance is a good idea. But I suspect that quite a few of those people who drive cars for 10 years or more tend to save up and buy with cash. At least I tend to.
marsha7, you hit many nails right on their heads. The U.S. Auto industry will continue to die as we know it. The 2 year old Buick has no problems. Except one. The value is far less than a comparable foreign brand during the rest of it's life cycle. The good news is out-of-the-box discounts because deep down the value is known. What a way to run a business.
I will not buy US until they PROVE high reliability, AND high quality AND high value. Like Toyota and Honda have.
I trust this takes more than a couple of years of nice Buicks.
I'd buy a Buick in a nanosecond over any Avalon. The Avalon is an overpriced Camry Deluxe with faulty steering and tranny named after a mediocre early '60s singer. What the heck is wrong with Buick design? It's pleasantly conservative without the ugliness of the Camry that looks like a giant pig - snout and all - with an interior inspired by a 1965 Sears Lady Kenmore washing machine. The Camry not only fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. The ugly tree also uprooted and fell on it. The only image a Camry or Avalon has is that its owner is a sheep and afraid of his wife.
Cadillac has a great image. I love Cadillac with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns. Shoot, just today a neighbor was complimenting my ride.
Good question? Why after so many decades in the car business is Buick still unable to grasp fundamental ergonomics? If the LaCrosse is representative, their anthropomorphic model must have three legs, each of a different length. After renting one for a ~300mi weekend, my Wife and I were both so uncomfortable that we'll not likely consider travel in a Buick again.
Uh...I think people are just grasping now. My girlfriend is a petite woman - 5'1" @ 107 lbs. and I'm a rather stocky guy @ 6' @ 194 lbs. and the seats can be adjusted to make each of us comfortable.
Before I bought the car I have now I took cars from every maker for test drives. Looked for large sedan under $35,000 Buick has a very long stopping distance for its class and poor acceleration. (Amanti stops shorter on ice than buick stopped on dry road) Ford 500/Freestyle has reliability problems, almost didn't take one for a test drive when they towed that car I was looking at back from a test drive. Chrysler/Dodge gas mileage of their large cars SUCKS Chrysler 300/dodge charger test drive had to buy gas to get back to the dealer got 16mpg on highway. Toyota Avalon got good gas mileage but ride was a bit too stiff. Hyundai Azera, good gas mileage but ride also a bit too stiff. Kia Amanti good gas mileage and ride.(getting 26mpg average, almost all driving highway) Hyundai and Kia had best warranties, and least reliability complaints.
Most new sedans have stiff suspension, the Sport sedan is the "IN" thing.
Most new sedans have stiff suspension, the Sport sedan is the "IN" thing.
This cracked me up. I think all cars turned into soft wishy-washy Buick type suspensions. That was my main complaint with the Accord (vs the Altima and Mazda6, the Camry didn't even get test driven) its it feels like a rolling old folks home. My favorite car so far was my old Contour SE, with the sport suspension. 170 hp, a good 5 speed manual and a great clutch, awesome seats, why can't the "domestics" make something like that again?
"Most new sedans have stiff suspension, the Sport sedan is the "IN" thing."
That sounds like a Buick owner of the '60s whose been asleep for the past 40 years. It is incomprehensible to me that a few actually LIKE the wallowy, floaty, underdamped ride of a Buick or its ilk. For them, I suppose, anything else is "too firm".
The primary purpose of an automotive suspension is to keep the tires in intimate contact with the pavement, not to provide the occupants an alternate reality.
"My favorite car so far was my old Contour SE, with the sport suspension. 170 hp, a good 5 speed manual and a great clutch, awesome seats, why can't the "domestics" make something like that again?"
Excellent question. A friend had one of those Contours and I drove it once. What a nice car that was! So, of course, Ford stopped making it.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
In his defense, I think there are two different issues at play. I rode in my dad's Avalon yesterday, and the suspension on it is very loose by my standards (the wheels and the body each go in their own individual directions when cornering), but it didn't dampen any more of the road bumps than the E320 he had before.
Avalon- loose, not so smooth E320- tight, not so smooth
Can tight and smooth be done? Maybe. The Delphi Magnaride setup supposedly approaches that.
When you buy a car from manufacturer X, made in country Y, you are voting for both the manufacture (his commitment to quality) and the people who built it. Many of GMs parts are built in Mexico. Didn't the people of mexico boo miss America last saturday nite? Seems they don't like us anymore but like to build our GM transmission. Seriously, would you buy anything from a country that does not like you? I love Mexico like the rest of you Jo's, but would not buy a car made there if I believed they really don't like us. Thats just human nature. Canada? I don't believe they hate us but that may be a close call. I like the Japanese tradition of honor and quality. And I like cars built in America. Enter El Camry.
"Many of GMs parts are built in Mexico. Didn't the people of mexico boo miss America last saturday nite? Seems they don't like us anymore but like to build our GM transmission. Seriously, would you buy anything from a country that does not like you?"
Wow, you think the Japanese actually like us huh? I have worked for a Japanese company, in fact 2! I have also traveled to Japan many times. I have had a good 20 years worth of experience with the Japanese. I hate to burst your bubble.. but in all truth.. they don't really like us too much.. :surprise:
International commerce is business, not a touchy-feely relationship. Whether we "like" each other is irrelevant (barring hostile relationships, of course). The only relevant measure of a transaction is that it is mutually beneficial.
As a Brit with a fair few good Amercan friends I think it is really not that we, and other European nations, don't like Amercans, but that we don't like "America". We have met huindreds, possibly thousands, of Americans on their home turf and there are very few that were in any way unfriendly/offensive. (Londoners, in general, are much worse but NY folk might be for all I know). In very simplistic terms, America seems to have very protectionist internal policies, (not a good phrase but hopefully you know what I mean), and foreign policies that are pure bully-boy.
U.K. is supposed to have a Special Relationship with USA but no-one seems to be able to point out any benefits of this to us Brits. We can't apply for citizenship, we can't use our submarine-based nuclear deterrent without USA approval and don't seem to have anything other than a notional "most favoured nation" status that is completely hollw.
Sorry, this is a car forum. Apologies and end of rant.
Actual fact: I dumped my Maxim and went back to Toyota after the French Pr ez declared war on Americans after the 2nd gulf war. The French own a big chunk of Nissan.
Now the French have a new man in charge that is more "Open minded". Nissan makes a much nicer looking car - the Maxima with wheels that are only 1000 percent better looking than anything toyota has on the Camry, IMHO.
Guess what: The next one is a Maxima, reguardless of where it is built.
with your theory is that everytime there is an election, you may be "forced" to buy a new car...
I simply stopped buying French products FOREVER, as they have never given a hoot about all the Americans who died in 2 wars to save their worthless heinies...
I only hope that they notice an American boycott...
Comments
Add to this concern the number of American companies that have sent their computer programming to India. Maritz Inc. is ahead of that curve and has moved most of their programming back to the USA. However, think about the banking and credit industry who have sent their computer programming to India. While the labor is cheaper, most things have to be done three or four times because even though they speak English as a second language there is a language barrier. What concerns me is what they could do to our credit industry having all this control.
Also, what about outsourcing customer service call centers to India? How many times do you call someone who says his name is "John" but you know his name is really something of Indian descent because he can't understand what you're saying. Dell is suffering greatly from this problem. They moved their corporate customer service back to the US but left their consumer call centers in India. Try talking to them when you have a problem. My wife and I did and finally wound up returning a $1500 computer to Dell. It can be done even though they say it can't.
We have sold way too much control of our country to forein states who probably aren't even our friends.
I hope in the next election something can be done about all this "free trade" which isn't free to us at all. I know many people here who would love to get a programmer job or a customer service call center job and they could do the job right the first time.
We need leadership who will stop the selling of America.
Rocky
My childrens future, the economic stability of our country, paying taxes, paying for my next meal, paying for my mortgage.. shall I go on?
We are a debtor nation now. China owns millions or should I say billions in U.S. treasury bills to help our debt in this country. All these years of sending our wealth overseas has caught up to us and our childrens, children will be paying the bill with a minimum wage job! We need college and High School classes educating our children about what it really means to buy a foreign product and the short term gains and long term losses mean to our nation. This is no joke.. Get out on the net and educate yourself now!@ :surprise:
American companies are capable of being competitive and operating at a profit. The ones that do succeed. The ones that don't, fail. The CEOs of these companies are the ones that need to be educated, so they realize why they SHOULD be succeeding, and so they can start succeeding. We have some of the most talented people in the WORLD when it comes to design, marketing, manufacturing, service, et cetra. If companies don't know how to use these resources properly, maybe outfits like GM SHOULD fail. Someone else will rise to take their place (Where's Preston Tucker when you need him?).
Rocky
It is a global economy and any company must recognize that to compete.
Will Congress "level the playing field" by mandating that all products produced outside the USA have higher defect rates or be less desirable to consumers? That would really put the once "big 3" in deep stuff!
The GMC 1500 was built in Canada. Might still be.
The Camry is built in America with more American parts than any other car according to a previous survey.
The ole folks look at you real funny when you don't buy a Ford, Chevy, whatever. So what's a guy to do.
I'm going to get ripped on this one but here goes.
American Company cars are great if you are going to keep it for 10 years.
To ask the trade in value can be a shocking experience. Trade in value as we know it is tied to how many of them are out there unsold when you are ready to do the same thing – sell one. And that number is related to
1. The actual or anticipated reliability of the vehicle at the time of sale.
2. Number sold to rental companies.
Reasons:
More problems means more people trying to get rid of them.
Also: People sell vehicles anticipating problems before they happen.
Also: Rental cars dumped on the market after the first year – Supply vs. Demand.
Honda limits production and maximizes durability.
I got a Honda civic a while back. They didn’t budge on the price.
But when it came time to sell, the buyers were waiting in line and the sale price stayed high.
Even the buyer’s bank didn’t seem to care the price was high.
GM is planning to limit production now.
But, can they get by dragging that big millstone they are stuck with called Legacy Overhead? It is not going away.
I hope so but I don’t see how?
The Impala was a super car but at 20,000 dollars (after 3000 in rebates, the trade-in value in two years was 10,500. And that was extra low miles in showroom condition.
No thanks - Time to try something else.
No thanks - Time to try something else.
Yeah my last two "domestic" cars were puchased at 2 years old with under 25k for about half the cost of new. Both were very reliable on all accounts and 10 years later were pretty much worthless. Since the original purchase price was about half of new car cost, I wasn't too concerned.
I guess the resale thing depends on which side of it you are on. I am suprised CamCords do so well used, 1-2 years old they are only ~1500-2k less then a new one.
Exactly! You done well.
Take a look at the Pontiac Vibe. It now costs about the same as a Toyota Matrix. The Matrix still has a better trade-in value.
It's the same car - a hatchback made on a Corolla chassis.
Only difference is the skin and some instruments. One is made in CA and the other somewhere else. Both have identical drive trains, specs and CR survey rates them the same.
The Vibe is seen as American. The Matrix is viewed as Japanese. But get this. Because of the runaway GM re-bate program in 04, I got a Vibe for 14,600. I drove it for 3+ years and still got a Toyota dealer to give me 10,400 for the Vibe. Not bad! Was that because the dealer believes they can sell the car quicker knowing the buyer knows it’s basically a Toyota? That's a possibility because many people do buy on “perceived reputation" vs. Price.
How you drive, how long you intend to keep the vehicle, how many were for sale when you were looking, all seem to make a difference in the final cost-out.
-Rocky
I wanted a Toyota but did not want to be seen in one, so got the Pontiac Vibe - Everything said Toyota including the oil filter, but except for the badge which said Pontiac.
Dad was happy because it's American.
Now he's upset because I finally replaced it with a Camry.
Now he blames me for putting Toyota ahead of GM in sales.
Something about Pearl Harbor I think.
Wasn't the Japanese Zero fighter made by Mitsubishi?
I know it wasn't a Toyota-Zero?
Maybe the next time we attack Japan, we'll use Toyota Fighter planes built in Lordstown, Ohio???
It's your call!
But there is another part of me that says that I should be able to buy quality and value where I find it...that concept, too, is American...I work hard for my money, and buying trash is as stupid as burning dollar bills in my fireplace...
And I feel that being blindly "patriotic" in our car purchases is what gave the Big 3 a "free ride" in the 70s and 80s to make and sell us junk that barely qualified as a boat anchor, yet they called it transportation...whether you blame management, unions or both, the product was crap...PERIOD...simply junk...two decades worth at least...that is a lot of squandered reputation, and American makers are still paying for violating our trust, and the American autoworker made his bed and now he is lying on it...they should have had the foresight to pay attention, but all the autoworker looks forward to is the next 3 year contract, quality be damned...
The real marketplace, which shows no bias except what the consumer is willing to pay, depreciates a vehicle made by Ford or GM by over 50% or more in 2 years...many Japanese makes and European makes do not depreciate as fast...
Why is it patriotic for me to, literally, throw my money away on by buying a Caddy for $52K today, only to sell it for $25K in 2 years, whereas the same money spent on an "import" (defined any way you want to) may only depreciate to $35K in two years...
Why should I lose an additional $10,000 in depreciation just to buy American and call myself patriotic???...why doesn't someone place the blame squarely where it belongs???...on the American carmakers, who make a product that the REAL MARKETPLACE recognizes as either 1) so overpriced when new that it loses value like a stone, or 2) so poorly made that it really will not last as long as the average Camry, Accord, etc...
Americans who do not want to buy junk and lose their buns on an American product are the ones who deserve the praise, not the ones who blindly buy domestic brands, just to keep their neighbor employed who spends his/her time manufacturing junk and trash...
If anyone is casuing the demise of our manufacturing base, it is, IMO, unions who demand exorbitant pay to perform work that is barely worth minimum wage...they have their union jobs, at least the few that are left, and fewer by the day...and management who is/are raping the companies for their golden parachutes, not caring if anything is left of the company except a corporate shell...
I may be wrong on this, but companies like Boeing, GE, Microsoft, DuPont, and others compete very well in the marketplace and are world-class leading companies...only the auto companies, and their feeder industries are in trouble, because the workers got arrogant, made junk (throwing beercans in the chassis before the body is dropped is NOT a management problem, it is a worker problem, and an even GREATER worker problem when that derelict worker cannot be removed from the line until 2 year's worth of union appeals are filed and argued) and expected us to buy it, yet they showed NO DESIRE to stop their rotten work habits when slammed in the face with declining sales and mounting job losses...
It may just take the disappearance of Ford to wake them up and stop taking the American consumer for granted, because we can take our money elsewhere, and we will...
While some preach the loss of the American manufacturing base, and it is true, the rest of us do not want junk in our driveways just because our neighbor makes it...our neighbor has to EARN our business, something they forgot 25 years ago...
If I buy something that depreciates 50% in two years, and falls apart in four, MY standard of living is now dramatically reduced because more of my income is being diverted to buy transportation that should have been as reliable as the Accord...so, either the auto worker loses his job and his standard of living, or I spend tens of thousands of dollars on junk that should have lasted years longer, which reduces MY standard of living that could have been used for a nicer home, better food, more vacations, etc....Don't forget all those workers in the vacation and food industry who ALSO depend on my spending for THEIR livlihoods, which I will not have the money to spend with them if all my money goes to replace depreciating automotive junk...
Does that make me less patriotic because I am willing to sacrifice the American autoworker to buy a competitor's product that is objectively better, according to the maketplace of depreciation...why can't the US worker make a better car and out-Honda the Honda???...that is where I believe the union welfare entitlement attitude comes into play, and, after 25 years of watching union membership cut by 2/3, the remaining unionites simply "just don't get it" and probably never will...
End of short rant...strong opinions to follow in next memo...:):):)
If you were to spend $52K on a luxury car, why would you be getting rid of it in only two years? I've had my 2002 Seville STS for over five and I have absolutely no desire to trade it. I'm waiting for at least 2010 short of my car being stolen or wrecked. I could care less about depreciation as I keep my cars for a very long time. They must be pretty good if I can keep them this long as my other rides are a 1988 Buick Park Avenue and a 1989 Cadillac Brougham. Besides, buying a car I don't like just because it has better resale value is still throwing money away in my book.
As for Buick and Cadillac thoose are two brands that generally don't have a reputation for bad quality. So your experince is not surprising. However the trouble is Cadallic and Buick for the most part do not compete with Toyota or Honda. Chevy and Saturn do. About the only model that Buick competes with is the Toyota Avalon.
Actually I do follow the keep it a long time school of thought. I ususally need a reasonably compelling reason to dump a car - either major mechanical problems or fear of impending ones. I'm always looking but only occasionally buying.
I will not buy US until they PROVE high reliability, AND high quality AND high value. Like Toyota and Honda have.
I trust this takes more than a couple of years of nice Buicks.
Regards,
OW
The Saturn Aura is a faint light but all of the others really look and feel and are, second-third rate. It just feels that way.
The Avalon looks much more appealing than the US competition.
If you want to save some cash you get the Camry which also blows away the looks of all Buicks and Caddies,IMO.
Regards,
OW
Cadillac has a great image. I love Cadillac with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns. Shoot, just today a neighbor was complimenting my ride.
Good question? Why after so many decades in the car business is Buick still unable to grasp fundamental ergonomics? If the LaCrosse is representative, their anthropomorphic model must have three legs, each of a different length. After renting one for a ~300mi weekend, my Wife and I were both so uncomfortable that we'll not likely consider travel in a Buick again.
Looked for large sedan under $35,000
Buick has a very long stopping distance for its class and poor acceleration. (Amanti stops shorter on ice than buick stopped on dry road)
Ford 500/Freestyle has reliability problems, almost didn't take one for a test drive when they towed that car I was looking at back from a test drive.
Chrysler/Dodge gas mileage of their large cars SUCKS Chrysler 300/dodge charger test drive had to buy gas to get back to the dealer got 16mpg on highway.
Toyota Avalon got good gas mileage but ride was a bit too stiff.
Hyundai Azera, good gas mileage but ride also a bit too stiff.
Kia Amanti good gas mileage and ride.(getting 26mpg average, almost all driving highway)
Hyundai and Kia had best warranties, and least reliability complaints.
Most new sedans have stiff suspension, the Sport sedan is the "IN" thing.
This cracked me up. I think all cars turned into soft wishy-washy Buick type suspensions. That was my main complaint with the Accord (vs the Altima and Mazda6, the Camry didn't even get test driven) its it feels like a rolling old folks home.
My favorite car so far was my old Contour SE, with the sport suspension. 170 hp, a good 5 speed manual and a great clutch, awesome seats, why can't the "domestics" make something like that again?
You think the Avalon has a stiff ride. Man you want like a Citroen or something with the oil suspension if you think an avalon has a stiff ride.
That sounds like a Buick owner of the '60s whose been asleep for the past 40 years. It is incomprehensible to me that a few actually LIKE the wallowy, floaty, underdamped ride of a Buick or its ilk. For them, I suppose, anything else is "too firm".
The primary purpose of an automotive suspension is to keep the tires in intimate contact with the pavement, not to provide the occupants an alternate reality.
Having smooth ride is very important.
Didn't like old Buicks, almost funny to watch some of those old cars go over frost heaves and see them keep bobbing/bouncing for the next mile.
Excellent question. A friend had one of those Contours and I drove it once. What a nice car that was! So, of course, Ford stopped making it.
Avalon- loose, not so smooth
E320- tight, not so smooth
Can tight and smooth be done? Maybe. The Delphi Magnaride setup supposedly approaches that.
BMW E36, well controlled over bumps and poor roads, excellent steering and responsive handling, and that was 10/15 years ago.
Then again, there's the American Idol voting...
Wow, you think the Japanese actually like us huh? I have worked for a Japanese company, in fact 2! I have also traveled to Japan many times. I have had a good 20 years worth of experience with the Japanese. I hate to burst your bubble.. but in all truth.. they don't really like us too much.. :surprise:
Which countries really like us anyway?
U.K. is supposed to have a Special Relationship with USA but no-one seems to be able to point out any benefits of this to us Brits. We can't apply for citizenship, we can't use our submarine-based nuclear deterrent without USA approval and don't seem to have anything other than a notional "most favoured nation" status that is completely hollw.
Sorry, this is a car forum. Apologies and end of rant.
It's all good...
I'm trying to figure out who it is the "protectionist" policies are protecting, since I've lost 2 jobs due to companies moving overseas. :confuse:
Prosperity is relative.
Now the French have a new man in charge that is more "Open minded". Nissan makes a much nicer looking car - the Maxima with wheels that are only 1000 percent better looking than anything toyota has on the Camry, IMHO.
Guess what: The next one is a Maxima, reguardless of where it is built.
Politics matters. And so do sharp wheels.
I simply stopped buying French products FOREVER, as they have never given a hoot about all the Americans who died in 2 wars to save their worthless heinies...
I only hope that they notice an American boycott...