I know you're just having fun at rocky's expense, but a bunch of posts along these lines have been removed. Let's just drop the "you're a true american / you're not a patriotic american" labeling, even if it's in jest, OK?
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I don't know if this Study has already been referenced before (although Rocky may have referenced it last month - I lost track pretty quickly off all the Detroit News pieces he linked to.....) but this study is interesting: http://detnews.com/graphics/2007/0102jdpower.pdf
2006 Detroit News Domestic Vehicle Avoider Study
Basically, the study reveals the reasons why some people avoid vehicles from 'domestic' nameplates vs. the reasons why people avoid vehicles from the 'imports'. The study was conducted by J.D.Power.
And the results are good news for the Domestic nameplates.
Apparently, the reasons listed by folks for being 'domestic' avoiders were primarily perceived quality issues, perceived reliability issues, and perceived poor fuel economy (note I say "PERCEIVED", not actual). In other words, the opinions of the domestic avoiders deal with issues related TO THE CARS which, perhaps, can be changed over time.
They also delved into reasons listed by folks for being 'import' avoiders. And by far the biggest reason listed for folks to avoid Asian cars was SIMPLY because they were Asian.
So, while the Domestics have a chance to 'convert' some Domestic avoiders by actually improving their product, it appears as though for the imports (particularly the Asian vehicles), the problem DOESN'T lie with the product. The problem is with the simple fact that they're Asian.
What does this say about the avoiders of Domestic vehicles vs. the avoiders of Asian vehicles?
Years ago, sony had the same problem with their tv sets in the US and around the world....
Now how do they come to dominate the sector with no US rivals except among their own, and pretty much the same deal around the world? Keep coming out with better products until you smother the domestic competitors. But in order for that to happen you'll need domestic competitors who are complacent, arrogant, with inferior products, lax on R&D.... Now when you want to buy a good tv set, what's the first brand that came to your mind? RCA? Westinghouse? Zenith? Admiral? No, it's a four letter word which I bet no one here knows what it means. Ask anyone who is jamming their playstation controllers about why buy a foreign made game console and I guarantee you'll get a blank stare. :surprise:
When there are no domestic options, you'll have to go foreign. And we all know who is following this model in the US auto industry and it ain't Aston Martin :shades:
Perhaps rather than better and better TVs (or autos) the foreign manufacturer sells the TVs, VCRs, etc., which they copied from the American US-based manufacturers at less than it costs to make them in Japan (or another country). Then you drive the US-based manufacturers out of business because they have higher costs. When they are out-of-business, you raise your prices to highest possible and make money. Can you say "S" "O" "N" "Y"? --and lots of other Asian brands?
Same applies to autos in previous decades. The history of the incursion of foreign brands successfully is much more complicated than the vehicles you see today from them.
Which domestic car was the Toyota Corolla a knockoff of?
The Accord? The Camry?
About the only legitimate example that I can think of would be the mid-70's Celica, when they took some styling cues from the earlier Mustangs. Other than that, I'm really at a loss to figure out which cars they 'copied' from US manufacturer's and simply built them cheaper.
that pretty much sums up the philisophy of all japanese consumer electronics manufacturers in the last 30 yrs. Sure, they can copy the tv, vcr, cameras, camcorders and sell it cheaper, but they want to make a BETTER copy AND sell it cheaper.
the gm cheerleading squad better pull out all the stops to regain/retain their market share. Toyota is following every page of sony's playbook and I think the tipping point is gonna be the next 10-15 years.
yeah, toyota got their sludge engines and honda has the tranny problems which the gm cheerleaders have all the links copied and paste in every auto forum. Anyone remember the beta tapes? minidiscs? Everytime these guys had a flop, they bounce right back and charge even harder than before. Cause they know that's what it takes to compete
The very first Toyotas and Nissans - built before World War II - were based on American designs. I believe that Ford and GM may have had a hand in operating the plants until they were kicked out by the government prior to World War II.
After the war, Japanese cars were based on British vehicles - Austin, if I recall correctly. Those were the ones initially imported to the U.S. in the late 1950s. Toyota, however, did make a six that was patterned after the Chevrolet ohv I-6.
In the 1960s, the Japanese did use American styling cues, and Toyota even adopted the "C" naming strategy (Corona, Corolla, Carina, Celica, Crown) that was used by Chevrolet at that time (Chevy II, Corvair, Chevelle, Caprice, Camaro, Corvette).
But the first Japanese car that really made everyone sit up and notice Japan was patterned after a BMW - the Datsun 510.
By "same" I was referring to the dumping technique which received lots of notariety in those days. The TV and VCR markets and other electronics were copied and then produced much more cheaply just to keep factories working and provide jobs but they drove the US manufacturers out. I remember winning a GE VCR in a contest and US brands went quickly after that.
I did not mean the cars were copied, but rather referred to the dumping question, which led to tariffs and limits talk in the Carter? era... Someone tried to twist my meaning to include cars being copied. The fuel shortage when we shared fuel with other counties during the fuel shortage led to popularity of the typical small car as an econobox for economical transportation, which the US manufacturers weren't even close to set up to provide. Indeed they didn't even really do more than lipservice to directly competing with the econoboxes. Did they believe they would go away at the time? And that was wrong. Every family had bought an economy car of some type to reduce costs. Even though they were very basic in some cases they provided tranportation.
Interesting point about the "C" names having been copied.
The 510, not the 210. The 70s Datsun 510 was a spiritual copy of the BMW 2002. These two cars started the "sport compact car" movement in the late 60s/early 70s. Datsun 510s are still popular today for vintage racing and rally (as is the 2002)
"Someone tried to twist my meaning to include cars being copied."
That would be me.
All of this is besides the point. My earler post was simply in regards to the J.D.Power study sponsered by the Detroit News. The results indicate that those people identified as "domestic avoiders" base their rationale on perceived traits of the CARS in question. The predominate issues listed being quality, reliability, and fuel economy. Now, we can discuss endlessly (as it's been done before) whether these are valid issues or not. All I'm saying (which is what the study is saying) is that 'domestic avoiders' base their stance on perceived issues related TO THE PRODUCT.
On the other hand, those identified as "Asian avoiders" base their rationale primarily on country of origin. And this isn't something inferred by the people doing the study; this was the STATED reason by those identified as "asian avoiders". In other words, their issues had ZIP to do with traits of the product itself; but simply a beef with the home country of that particular manufacturer.
I'm not trying to resolve whether or not the CAR related issues of the 'domestic avoiders' are valid issues or not. I'm also not trying to resolve whether or not the COUNTRY related issues of the 'Asian avoiders' are valid issues or not.
I'm simply saying that this basic difference in how this issue is regarded is why this thread has gone on so long. One group of participants tries to discuss things from a perspective of vehicle traits (and the issues which LEAD to various vehicle traits). Another group of participants tries to discuss things purely from a perspective of county of origin. And this basic difference is probably why we've been at such loggerheads in this thread for so long.
Hey, since everyone is so gung ho Buy American and the evil imports need to get out of the country, maybe we should boycott foriegn oil to fuel our 4 ton Yukons and Suburbans?
Or how bout this? We can pull our garbage out of the foriegn countreis since we don't belong there either?
Wouldn't that be cool? Just one big happy America without Import distubance.
No, but what we can do is place a tariff every foreign manufacturer and funnel that money into the American auto industry to fuel innovation and better quality. I say every toyota, nissan, honda, kia, etc, should be taxed a minimum of $7500. They do that to us.... ever buy an American car in japan? it's 5ooo dollars more expensive than here. If the [non-permissible content removed] and koreans wanna do business here, they need to pay for the privilege to do so. I will NEVER buy a car from an Asian manufacturer... period. I'll stick with my Buicks, Caddies and Lincolns
Don't boycott oil, but rather take the oil fields by force if necessary. Its OUR equipment to begin with and OPEC is holding us hostage and they need to be punished for unfair practices
I thought that was called the current iraq war. Ah OPEC wants to sell thier oil for as much as they can get for it and it would be foolish for them to sell for less.
Well my friends G6 is just over 1 year old and has had a major malfunction, the dealer has had it since Jan 2, and has not been able to locate the problem yet, it fried a replacement computer instantly, replace computer , car starts fries computer and dies, the diagnostic port is also not working.
Right...b/c when American companies were making $$ hand over fist on SUV's, they thought "finally---some money we can use to improve our product line and become the new standard for excellence"?
My car was built in the US. US workers were paid in USD to build it and they can now use that money as they see fit. Conversely, a Ford or Chevy built outside the US---some money may come back to the company, but how much of those profits are the workers seeing, as opposed to the high-ups. Last I checked, the CEO/CFO etc of any of these places aren't exactly applying for FoodStamps.
I do admit I had a few months of disloyalty but I can admit I was wrong. I loved the car but honestly felt very guilty driving a foreign make and as much as I like to joke about buying another one I honestly will never pull the trigger again. I had my credit ruined by a GM dealership before I bought my Acura, and instead of filing a lawsuit against the dealership I took it out on GM. I however still think GM's customer service could of done something to punish the dealership. This is a area of concern with most car company's as I later found out with Acura. :sick:
>My car was built in the US. US workers were paid in USD to build it and they can now use that money as they see fit. Conversely, a Ford or Chevy built outside the US---some money may come back to the company, but how much of those profits are the workers seeing, as opposed to the high-ups.
How much of your money to the foreign company building US goes to the company instead of the worker? How much went to managers from nonUS locations who are just working here? How much went to outside suppliers who are actually owned by the foreign company? How much went to the foreign headquarters via manipulation of costs on the books vs real costs for parts? How much went through a foreign country to avoid tracing?
We can "whatif" as much as we want to slant the problem the way each wants to make ourselves feel good. But reality is a foreign company is a foreign company; it's not headquarter in the US. Taxes are a funny thing. I'm aware of this because several years back an Enquirer article detailed concerns on the part of Ohio's legislature that taxes weren't being paid which are due them and they listed some of the ways the records are manipulated. There were several large companies doing business in Ohio who paid less than $50 in taxes--yes that $50, no thousands, no millions... But that news story seemed to disappear quickly into the quagmire and didn't get follow up. Guess those companies didn't want much publicity. Although not named the first company that comes to my mind is Honda... auto and cycles in our area of the state.
Quite a reach to name Honda on your own. Unless Honda is the only company in the state.
Additionally, the taxes that were referred to were income taxes from the workers. Not to mention the taxes on items that the factory workers bought.
So...the "whatif" works both ways. With the highest selling foreign cars and trucks being built in the U.S. and the domestic brands sending more and more production to Mexico and Canada, you help MANY more Americans by buying an American built foreign car than a foreign built domestic.
As pointed out before, all the companies are openly traded so if you want to share in any companies' success, buy some stock.
You're supposing because it suits your pov. You have no facts to support your conspriacy theory other than you 'feel' that something is amiss.
I do have facts and they are published all over the internet and have been posted here before and it shoots down your 'feelings' of some kind of conspracy.
while I search.. Ponder on this When steel is bought from US Steel how much of that goes back to Japan? Steel Dynamics in Indiana? Alcoa? When tires are bought from Michelin, Goodyear how much of that goes back to Japan? When control units are purchased from Delphi how much of that goes back to Japan? How much of the money paid to Johnson Controls for HomelinkTM ends up in Japan. How many truckers and railworkers send their paychecks back to Japan?
You get the point. Be back soon with the tax subject. It won't fit your preformed mis-opinion.
Toyotageorgetown.com Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky, Inc. (TMMK) presented a check for $1,213,532.00 to Scott County Schools, representing TMMK's nineteenth annual in-lieu-of-tax payment to the school system. TMMK financed portions of the original automobile manufacturing plant, the Powertrain facility, and the expanded manufacturing facility through Industrial Revenue Bonds. Since property financed through bonds is exempt from property taxation, the school system would usually not receive its share of property taxes on the financial property until the bonds mature in 2008.
In 1988, Toyota agreed to make an annual payment to the Scott County Board of Education to make up for the loss of tax payments. This year's check brings the total amount paid to the school system to $27,457,136.00.
Gary Convis, President of TMMK: "Our commitment to local and regional suppliers is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the many ways in which TMMK has been a good neighbor and a good corporate citizen for Kentucky," explains Convis. "Toyota has invested roughly $5.3 billion in our physical plant, and our annual payroll is more than half a billion dollars. That represents a huge amount of tax dollars each year for Kentucky and surrounding states."
To wit. The state income tax rate in KY is 6% max. Thus the workforce generates somewhere in the range of $20-$30 Million a year to the state, not to mention what's paid by the workforce at the various suppliers.
Do you think that Scott County and the State of KY are happy that they developed this 1000 acres of empty farmland back in 1986?
All of the domestics have major factories located in Ohio. I remember driving by the big Ford complex in Lorain a few years ago when visiting relatives in the area.
The GM plant at Lordstown - which has built the Vega, J-Cars and Cobalt/G5 over the years - is right off the Ohio Turnpike, not too far from the Pennsylvania-Ohio border.
There was also a big stink - and a court case - over state and local incentives given to DaimlerChrysler to build a new Jeep plant in the Toledo area.
I don't know if Honda is larger than GM, Ford and Chrysler in the state, although it may have a higher percentage of its total American production facilities based in Ohio than those three do.
If it's a large company, it could be any one of those four.
How do you tax a factory for income? I think the biggest tax base for a state would be taxes on the workers' income. Not to mention taxing all of the businesses and people that support the factory and workers.
As far as taxing (insert business here)for the income earned by the factory itself, that would be more a federal issue. Tracking income made on a per factory level would be very difficult IMHO. Additionally, if Honda WERE to hide factory income from revenue collectors, just think what the money hemmorraging domestic plants are doing. They have more write-offs than anyone.
If you look at the tax base of most State Gov'ts the majority of revenue comes from property taxes and various sales taxes. That is just how most states work. States that do have a income tax generaly do not have a very high income tax so they don't get much revenue from it.
Taxes are taxes and I would much rather see local areas get the tax revenue directly then have it allocated from the state or federal gov't.
You import louvers get wrapped up into where it's assembled instead of concentrating on domestic content. domestic content employs tens of thousands while a assembly plant employs a few thousand. :confuse:
Rocky
P.S. Just as a reminder 8 out of 10 auto jobs are still provided by the big 3 according to a harbour research study.
Altima's got what 65% domestic content ???? Impala has 87%,
Accord has 60-65%, Camry has 70%, Fusion/HHR I'm not sure what the content is so I'm not going to speculate but obviously since you know everything like always why don't you fill us in with kd's facts. :surprise: ????
Yes, because they are less efficient than the transplants, and have kept workers on the payroll who aren't really needed.
Incidentally, I'd like to see the figure after the latest rounds of cuts by GM and Ford are completed. Plus, all signs are that Chrysler will be going through another downsizing within the next year or so.
to PUNISH the Japanese (and other foreign) carmakers, I do want a level playing field...since they add tariffs to our products going into Japan, we should do the same here, altho I am afraid what the politicians would do with the tariff money, maybe actually apply it to our debt...Pat Buchanan, who I admire for his gutsy positions on auto tariffs and immigration, said years ago, "take whatever the Japanese demand on THEIR side of a trade agreement, and then just reverse it to apply to them"...so, if they drop tariffs on imports, we drop tariffs on imports, etc...
Having said that, how could we apply those tariffs to "inports" made here, when we really do see the economic benefit of billions in payroll (and payroll taxes paid to the state), property taxes even if tax incentives were offered, don't forget the suppliers who supply the plants who did not receive any incentives and pay the full boat, often bringing jobs to areas that really need them...knowing all those benefits to us, does that not make the Japanese good "citizens" for all of us, even if they were forced into doing it, kinda like the law of unintended consequences???
Lastly, I am still quite happy for the Japanese invasion, simply because in the 70s and 80s, the Big 3 made junk...that is the word for it...not mediocre autos, but unadulterated JUNK from GM, Ford and Chrysler...it wasn't the Japanese that put Chrysler into bankruptcy, it was their own junk that folks were rebelling against buying, and Ford was right behind them...
So, while in one sense I do not want to see the destruction of the American auto industry, they brought it totally on themselves with union demands, management arrogance, and the production of plain junk that nobody wanted to buy...the japanese made a better product and offered us honest competition whcih we were losing badly, so we needed a breather period to "restore" ourselves, and forced the Japanese to make their product over here...I believe in the long run we have benefitted much, even tho our dollars may go to Japan, we have yet to see the US makers offer comparable quality in their autos...everyhting they make is always compared to a Japanese product and seems to come up short...
It is amazing that our carmakers have lasted this long, when, somewhere, I want to believe that we can make a product that surpasses the Japanese in quality, I question whether this generation of union workers will ever "get it" as they still spend their time preaching about "job protection" when they should be spending their time asking how they can make the car better...until they do, the situation may be hopeless, unless a new generation of workers comes in with a different attitude, they will always have the same idiot welfare "you owe it to me" mentality...
We can do better, and, considering how the Japanese are always improving and a moving target, we MUST do better...
3777 of 3777 While I do not wish by marsha7 Jan 17, 2007 (7:11 pm) to PUNISH the Japanese (and other foreign) carmakers, I do want a level playing field...since they add tariffs to our products going into Japan, we should do the same here, altho I am afraid what the politicians would do with the tariff money, maybe actually apply it to our debt...
If you are talking about auto's this is false. The import tariff for autos is 0% in Japan. They charge no duties. However in the US we charge an import tariff of 2.5% on light vehicles and 25% on trucks.
Like kdhspyder stated, Japan charges NO tariff on passenger cars. Didn't read about vehicles for other purposes but one should be able to find that info from the link as well.
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They must be doing something. I recall seeing the price of a 1992 Cadillac Seville STS in Japan. It was priced at $67,000 whereas it could be had for around $45,000 or less here. If there isn't a tariff, from where does the extra $22,000 come? Do Japanese Cadillac dealers want to make outrageous profits? Something's not kosher.
I remember when the politicians were proposing a 100% tariff on Japanese luxury cars. I wonder if anybody would be willing to spend about $120K on a Lexus LS if this was mandated? I wonder if we'd see an American Lexus plant to get around this tariff?
I recall seeing the price of a 1992 Cadillac Seville STS in Japan. It was priced at $67,000 whereas it could be had for around $45,000 or less here.
Profit margins, engine displacement and size taxes, importation and conformance fees, plus the fact that hypercompetition in the US market depresses sale prices in comparison to other markets.
I wonder if anybody would be willing to spend about $120K on a Lexus LS if this was mandated?
People were and are willing to drop $120k on an S-class, so why not?
Comments
I guess rocky doesn't cause he bought a TL? :sick:
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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Review your vehicle
2006 Detroit News Domestic Vehicle Avoider Study
Basically, the study reveals the reasons why some people avoid vehicles from 'domestic' nameplates vs. the reasons why people avoid vehicles from the 'imports'. The study was conducted by J.D.Power.
And the results are good news for the Domestic nameplates.
Apparently, the reasons listed by folks for being 'domestic' avoiders were primarily perceived quality issues, perceived reliability issues, and perceived poor fuel economy (note I say "PERCEIVED", not actual). In other words, the opinions of the domestic avoiders deal with issues related TO THE CARS which, perhaps, can be changed over time.
They also delved into reasons listed by folks for being 'import' avoiders. And by far the biggest reason listed for folks to avoid Asian cars was SIMPLY because they were Asian.
So, while the Domestics have a chance to 'convert' some Domestic avoiders by actually improving their product, it appears as though for the imports (particularly the Asian vehicles), the problem DOESN'T lie with the product. The problem is with the simple fact that they're Asian.
What does this say about the avoiders of Domestic vehicles vs. the avoiders of Asian vehicles?
Now how do they come to dominate the sector with no US rivals except among their own, and pretty much the same deal around the world? Keep coming out with better products until you smother the domestic competitors. But in order for that to happen you'll need domestic competitors who are complacent, arrogant, with inferior products, lax on R&D.... Now when you want to buy a good tv set, what's the first brand that came to your mind? RCA? Westinghouse? Zenith? Admiral? No, it's a four letter word which I bet no one here knows what it means. Ask anyone who is jamming their playstation controllers about why buy a foreign made game console and I guarantee you'll get a blank stare. :surprise:
When there are no domestic options, you'll have to go foreign. And we all know who is following this model in the US auto industry and it ain't Aston Martin :shades:
Same applies to autos in previous decades. The history of the incursion of foreign brands successfully is much more complicated than the vehicles you see today from them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Really?
Which domestic car was the Toyota Corolla a knockoff of?
The Accord? The Camry?
About the only legitimate example that I can think of would be the mid-70's Celica, when they took some styling cues from the earlier Mustangs. Other than that, I'm really at a loss to figure out which cars they 'copied' from US manufacturer's and simply built them cheaper.
that pretty much sums up the philisophy of all japanese consumer electronics manufacturers in the last 30 yrs. Sure, they can copy the tv, vcr, cameras, camcorders and sell it cheaper, but they want to make a BETTER copy AND sell it cheaper.
the gm cheerleading squad better pull out all the stops to regain/retain their market share. Toyota is following every page of sony's playbook and I think the tipping point is gonna be the next 10-15 years.
yeah, toyota got their sludge engines and honda has the tranny problems which the gm cheerleaders have all the links copied and paste in every auto forum. Anyone remember the beta tapes? minidiscs? Everytime these guys had a flop, they bounce right back and charge even harder than before. Cause they know that's what it takes to compete
After the war, Japanese cars were based on British vehicles - Austin, if I recall correctly. Those were the ones initially imported to the U.S. in the late 1950s. Toyota, however, did make a six that was patterned after the Chevrolet ohv I-6.
In the 1960s, the Japanese did use American styling cues, and Toyota even adopted the "C" naming strategy (Corona, Corolla, Carina, Celica, Crown) that was used by Chevrolet at that time (Chevy II, Corvair, Chevelle, Caprice, Camaro, Corvette).
But the first Japanese car that really made everyone sit up and notice Japan was patterned after a BMW - the Datsun 510.
I did not mean the cars were copied, but rather referred to the dumping question, which led to tariffs and limits talk in the Carter? era... Someone tried to twist my meaning to include cars being copied. The fuel shortage when we shared fuel with other counties during the fuel shortage led to popularity of the typical small car as an econobox for economical transportation, which the US manufacturers weren't even close to set up to provide. Indeed they didn't even really do more than lipservice to directly competing with the econoboxes. Did they believe they would go away at the time? And that was wrong. Every family had bought an economy car of some type to reduce costs. Even though they were very basic in some cases they provided tranportation.
Interesting point about the "C" names having been copied.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Datsun 510s are still popular today for vintage racing and rally (as is the 2002)
That would be me.
All of this is besides the point. My earler post was simply in regards to the J.D.Power study sponsered by the Detroit News. The results indicate that those people identified as "domestic avoiders" base their rationale on perceived traits of the CARS in question. The predominate issues listed being quality, reliability, and fuel economy. Now, we can discuss endlessly (as it's been done before) whether these are valid issues or not. All I'm saying (which is what the study is saying) is that 'domestic avoiders' base their stance on perceived issues related TO THE PRODUCT.
On the other hand, those identified as "Asian avoiders" base their rationale primarily on country of origin. And this isn't something inferred by the people doing the study; this was the STATED reason by those identified as "asian avoiders". In other words, their issues had ZIP to do with traits of the product itself; but simply a beef with the home country of that particular manufacturer.
I'm not trying to resolve whether or not the CAR related issues of the 'domestic avoiders' are valid issues or not. I'm also not trying to resolve whether or not the COUNTRY related issues of the 'Asian avoiders' are valid issues or not.
I'm simply saying that this basic difference in how this issue is regarded is why this thread has gone on so long. One group of participants tries to discuss things from a perspective of vehicle traits (and the issues which LEAD to various vehicle traits). Another group of participants tries to discuss things purely from a perspective of county of origin. And this basic difference is probably why we've been at such loggerheads in this thread for so long.
Or how bout this? We can pull our garbage out of the foriegn countreis since we don't belong there either?
Wouldn't that be cool? Just one big happy America without Import distubance.
My car was built in the US. US workers were paid in USD to build it and they can now use that money as they see fit. Conversely, a Ford or Chevy built outside the US---some money may come back to the company, but how much of those profits are the workers seeing, as opposed to the high-ups. Last I checked, the CEO/CFO etc of any of these places aren't exactly applying for FoodStamps.
I do admit I had a few months of disloyalty but I can admit I was wrong. I loved the car but honestly felt very guilty driving a foreign make and as much as I like to joke about buying another one I honestly will never pull the trigger again. I had my credit ruined by a GM dealership before I bought my Acura, and instead of filing a lawsuit against the dealership I took it out on GM. I however still think GM's customer service could of done something to punish the dealership. This is a area of concern with most car company's as I later found out with Acura. :sick:
Rocky
I never posted that link pal.... you are the first.
Rocky
How much of your money to the foreign company building US goes to the company instead of the worker? How much went to managers from nonUS locations who are just working here? How much went to outside suppliers who are actually owned by the foreign company? How much went to the foreign headquarters via manipulation of costs on the books vs real costs for parts? How much went through a foreign country to avoid tracing?
We can "whatif" as much as we want to slant the problem the way each wants to make ourselves feel good. But reality is a foreign company is a foreign company; it's not headquarter in the US. Taxes are a funny thing. I'm aware of this because several years back an Enquirer article detailed concerns on the part of Ohio's legislature that taxes weren't being paid which are due them and they listed some of the ways the records are manipulated. There were several large companies doing business in Ohio who paid less than $50 in taxes--yes that $50, no thousands, no millions... But that news story seemed to disappear quickly into the quagmire and didn't get follow up. Guess those companies didn't want much publicity. Although not named the first company that comes to my mind is Honda... auto and cycles in our area of the state.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Additionally, the taxes that were referred to were income taxes from the workers. Not to mention the taxes on items that the factory workers bought.
So...the "whatif" works both ways. With the highest selling foreign cars and trucks being built in the U.S. and the domestic brands sending more and more production to Mexico and Canada, you help MANY more Americans by buying an American built foreign car than a foreign built domestic.
As pointed out before, all the companies are openly traded so if you want to share in any companies' success, buy some stock.
Actually you only buy ADRs of Honda in the US.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I do have facts and they are published all over the internet and have been posted here before and it shoots down your 'feelings' of some kind of conspracy.
while I search.. Ponder on this
When steel is bought from US Steel how much of that goes back to Japan? Steel Dynamics in Indiana? Alcoa?
When tires are bought from Michelin, Goodyear how much of that goes back to Japan?
When control units are purchased from Delphi how much of that goes back to Japan?
How much of the money paid to Johnson Controls for HomelinkTM ends up in Japan.
How many truckers and railworkers send their paychecks back to Japan?
You get the point. Be back soon with the tax subject. It won't fit your preformed mis-opinion.
Toyotageorgetown.com
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky, Inc. (TMMK) presented a check for $1,213,532.00 to Scott County Schools, representing TMMK's nineteenth annual in-lieu-of-tax payment to the school system. TMMK financed portions of the original automobile manufacturing plant, the Powertrain facility, and the expanded manufacturing facility through Industrial Revenue Bonds. Since property financed through bonds is exempt from property taxation, the school system would usually not receive its share of property taxes on the financial property until the bonds mature in 2008.
In 1988, Toyota agreed to make an annual payment to the Scott County Board of Education to make up for the loss of tax payments. This year's check brings the total amount paid to the school system to $27,457,136.00.
Gary Convis, President of TMMK:
"Our commitment to local and regional suppliers is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the many ways in which TMMK has been a good neighbor and a good corporate citizen for Kentucky," explains Convis. "Toyota has invested roughly $5.3 billion in our physical plant, and our annual payroll is more than half a billion dollars. That represents a huge amount of tax dollars each year for Kentucky and surrounding states."
To wit. The state income tax rate in KY is 6% max. Thus the workforce generates somewhere in the range of $20-$30 Million a year to the state, not to mention what's paid by the workforce at the various suppliers.
Do you think that Scott County and the State of KY are happy that they developed this 1000 acres of empty farmland back in 1986?
I note in your next post you talk about property taxes. That's different than taxes to a state for income.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The GM plant at Lordstown - which has built the Vega, J-Cars and Cobalt/G5 over the years - is right off the Ohio Turnpike, not too far from the Pennsylvania-Ohio border.
There was also a big stink - and a court case - over state and local incentives given to DaimlerChrysler to build a new Jeep plant in the Toledo area.
I don't know if Honda is larger than GM, Ford and Chrysler in the state, although it may have a higher percentage of its total American production facilities based in Ohio than those three do.
If it's a large company, it could be any one of those four.
As far as taxing (insert business here)for the income earned by the factory itself, that would be more a federal issue. Tracking income made on a per factory level would be very difficult IMHO. Additionally, if Honda WERE to hide factory income from revenue collectors, just think what the money hemmorraging domestic plants are doing. They have more write-offs than anyone.
Taxes are taxes and I would much rather see local areas get the tax revenue directly then have it allocated from the state or federal gov't.
Rocky
P.S. Just as a reminder 8 out of 10 auto jobs are still provided by the big 3 according to a harbour research study.
Good point ..
By your logic all US buyers should be lining up for Camrys, Accords and Altimas rather than the Fusions and Impalas and HHR's from Mexico.
We finally agree. Knew you'd come around. :P
Accord has 60-65%, Camry has 70%, Fusion/HHR I'm not sure what the content is so I'm not going to speculate but obviously since you know everything like always why don't you fill us in with kd's facts. :surprise: ????
Rocky
Thanx,
Rocky
Incidentally, I'd like to see the figure after the latest rounds of cuts by GM and Ford are completed. Plus, all signs are that Chrysler will be going through another downsizing within the next year or so.
Let's look at those figures then...
The Accord is 70% vs. 80% in the Malibu but 30% in the Fusion.
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=more&story=amMade120- 6&referer=advice&aff=national
Here's a top 10. Looks like the Camry is the top ranked car in the US.
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/docs/Auto_Parts_Scorecard_090606_FINAL.pdf
This chart shows domestic content by manufacturer. Looks like Honda is only 14% behind the mighty GM.
Having said that, how could we apply those tariffs to "inports" made here, when we really do see the economic benefit of billions in payroll (and payroll taxes paid to the state), property taxes even if tax incentives were offered, don't forget the suppliers who supply the plants who did not receive any incentives and pay the full boat, often bringing jobs to areas that really need them...knowing all those benefits to us, does that not make the Japanese good "citizens" for all of us, even if they were forced into doing it, kinda like the law of unintended consequences???
Lastly, I am still quite happy for the Japanese invasion, simply because in the 70s and 80s, the Big 3 made junk...that is the word for it...not mediocre autos, but unadulterated JUNK from GM, Ford and Chrysler...it wasn't the Japanese that put Chrysler into bankruptcy, it was their own junk that folks were rebelling against buying, and Ford was right behind them...
So, while in one sense I do not want to see the destruction of the American auto industry, they brought it totally on themselves with union demands, management arrogance, and the production of plain junk that nobody wanted to buy...the japanese made a better product and offered us honest competition whcih we were losing badly, so we needed a breather period to "restore" ourselves, and forced the Japanese to make their product over here...I believe in the long run we have benefitted much, even tho our dollars may go to Japan, we have yet to see the US makers offer comparable quality in their autos...everyhting they make is always compared to a Japanese product and seems to come up short...
It is amazing that our carmakers have lasted this long, when, somewhere, I want to believe that we can make a product that surpasses the Japanese in quality, I question whether this generation of union workers will ever "get it" as they still spend their time preaching about "job protection" when they should be spending their time asking how they can make the car better...until they do, the situation may be hopeless, unless a new generation of workers comes in with a different attitude, they will always have the same idiot welfare "you owe it to me" mentality...
We can do better, and, considering how the Japanese are always improving and a moving target, we MUST do better...
Small rant coming to an end...:):):)
to PUNISH the Japanese (and other foreign) carmakers, I do want a level playing field...since they add tariffs to our products going into Japan, we should do the same here, altho I am afraid what the politicians would do with the tariff money, maybe actually apply it to our debt...
If you are talking about auto's this is false. The import tariff for autos is 0% in Japan. They charge no duties. However in the US we charge an import tariff of 2.5% on light vehicles and 25% on trucks.
Just a small inaccuracy.
Japan motor vehicles tariff
Like kdhspyder stated, Japan charges NO tariff on passenger cars. Didn't read about vehicles for other purposes but one should be able to find that info from the link as well.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/16484733.htm
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I remember when the politicians were proposing a 100% tariff on Japanese luxury cars. I wonder if anybody would be willing to spend about $120K on a Lexus LS if this was mandated? I wonder if we'd see an American Lexus plant to get around this tariff?
Profit margins, engine displacement and size taxes, importation and conformance fees, plus the fact that hypercompetition in the US market depresses sale prices in comparison to other markets.
I wonder if anybody would be willing to spend about $120K on a Lexus LS if this was mandated?
People were and are willing to drop $120k on an S-class, so why not?