OK, but this discussion isn't about what people think of workers/unions. It's about what it means to buy an American car these days. Thanks for sticking to the topic!
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"Buying American" is hard to define, but here is my opinion:
GM and Ford have plants in Canada and Mexico that make cars, engines, and other car parts for cars that are sold here in America. They make cars in other countries too. The GTO - Australia, even though it is a Pontiac with a legendary name. Yes they are head quartered in America. But does that mean they are American? Can a foreigner buy stock in GM or Ford, or purchase debt from the companies for an investment yield return? Yes. So if foreigners buy stock or debt in GM or Ford, the earnings still get passed outside of America, even if they are an American company that employs American workers. So the whole thought process here is to keep America employed so we can continue to carry our world leading standard of living.
So, if I buy a GTO, is it American, or is my Honda Civic built in Ohio more American? Honda builds cars, engines and parts in America, Canada and other counties for their American sold cars, just like GM and Ford. Yes, Honda is a Japanese company, but can I invest in their stock or debt? Yes. So, in theory, their earnings could get passed to Americans.
So what would be better? An American based company owned by foreigners that sells and builds cars and parts here in America and ships the profits out of the country? Or a foreign company that builds and sells cars and parts in America and ships the profits to America. It's a tough call.
And let's add another twist. Honda's hold their resale more that GM and Ford cars. So if I buy a Honda that has much better resale and better yet, less true cost to own overall, than I raise my standard of living by investing less of my resources on automotive products. I can then use that money for something else like purchasing a new furnace, etc. from a local contractor, for example. Honda employs many American people, plus it helps fee up money to spend with other people. So, is a Honda or a comparable GM or Ford more helpful to the economy? Do I want to raise my standard of living or the standard of living for a GM or Ford employee?
I buy Honda's and consider them American, because the parts and cars are made here in America and they employee many Americans, especially here in Ohio where I live, and they tend to have lower true cost to own.
I'm sorry, but I have owned both American and Honda. The domestics do have some great cars, but they are only a handful of their total lineup. I don't like the overpriced Cadillac's and I don't need a big Tahoe. And Hondas and Toyotas do better on resale value and long term reliability. How many people can say they had a Grand Am (4 cylinder) go over 150,000 miles with only scheduled maintenance?
However, Honda (Odyssey transmissions) and Toyota (engine sludge) have had their problems with long term reliability too. The difference is how they own up to it. Both Honda and Toyota stepped up with extended warranties for potential problem vehicles.
On top of that, I have had several items fixed free of charge when my Hondas were out of warranty. The dealer has told me that Honda will generally pay for items that "shouldn't have happened" as long as I can prove good maintenance records. Just try to see if GM will pay for a dash light that burns out two years out of warranty, and takes two hours to repair by the dealer. Or ask them for a new transmission if yours goes out with over 100,000 miles on it.
I started buying Honda's since 1993 when Ford burned me on two separate vehicles. In 2002, I decided to buy a Pontiac since domestics were supposedly "better". That was a disaster that took me right back to the Honda dealer.
If anyone wants to see it, I have a page of problems I had with my Pontiac that all started with delivery.
I don't feel guilty about buying Honda's either. They employ a lot of people here in Ohio, and I have many customers, family and friends that work for suppliers of both Honda and Toyota in the area.
>Or ask them for a new transmission if yours goes out with over 100,000 miles on it.
Errrr, did you check that replacement warranty for all those years of Honda trannies to which they did own up about the inherent problems and how long they warranties the replacements? It stops at 100,000 miles. So you're on your own then if you choose to continue to own the car. Otherwise the resale value is down because most people know they have problems.
Yes - that was my point - it was over the 100,000 mile mark and Honda still gave them a new trannie. If I remember correctly, the van had about 160,000 miles on it and the trannie went. Honda provided a new tranny and the customer just had to pay shipping and installation to the dealer.
Me personally, I would never even had complained about it, let alone asking for a trannie!!! And it does not really hurt the resale value because most issues showed up before the 100,000 mile mark. And the dealer usually can find out if it already has been worked on or not.
I realize you're idealizing the situation with Honda because that's a car you favor. I am talking about the stories I have read where a trans went at 30K, 60K, 90K, which Honda had replaced. But they didn't warranty anything past the 100,000 mile mark. You're using an anecdotal, single 160K replacement. (They must have known they had a bad trannie there too?)
A big part of the domestics' predicament is how they own up to a recurring problem. A good example is the intake manifold gasket failure with GM V-6s. This is a very common problem, and if left unchecked, can either require expensive engine work or ultimately ruin the engine.
A co-worker's 2000 Impala was diagnosed with this problem. Fortunately, the dealer caught it before there was any engine damage, so she only needed to have the gasket replaced, which cost about $400. The dealer was going to make her pay for it, but I found the TSB and printed it out for her. When she took the TSB to the dealer, he called GM, and GM paid for the repair.
In the end, GM stepped up to the plate - but only because she was armed with the TSB. She knew nothing about it before I told her. (The dealer certainly wasn't very helpful.) Think of how GM could have improved customer relations by sending her a letter and telling her to have it replaced BEFORE any problems developed.
The same failure occurred with my parents' 1999 Buick Park Avenue. On their way home from Kansas, they stopped along the Pennsylvania Turnpike. When they went to restart the car, it wouldn't turn over. The car was towed to their hometown dealer (fortunately, they were only about 40 miles from home) and diagnosed with major engine damage caused by a failed intake manifold gasket. The cost of repair came to about $1,400, which they paid for, as the car had over 110,000 miles on it.
Fortunately for GM, my father is of the old school - "After 100,000 miles, you really can't complain." And up until that point, the car had been very reliable (not to mention roomy and economical for its size), so my parents are satisfied that they have received their money's worth. If anything, my father recently asked me about the new Buick Lucerne, as it caught his eye when he was at the dealer.
I only favor the Honda because of my experience with domestics. I got mad because I had a Ford Escort that needed a head rebuild with around 30,000 miles. The rebuild lasted less than a year. That resulted in a 1993 Honda Civic. I also had a Ford Ranger that started then falling apart after 60,000 miles - resulted in a 1994 Civic. I would love to buy a domestic - I wouldn't have to make a two hour round trip to get service or to buy a car.
And yes, the 160K replacement was an Odyssey with the troubled transmission. My point was that Honda did something, where GM or Ford would have not. The poster who mentioned that GM replaced a bad manifold gasket was definitely an isolated incident.
I apologize if I sound like a fanatic, but it's just from my experience. And because of my job, I talk to people and even car dealers about cars and have heard many many horror stories. I have seen many working class people get stuck with a car repair bill for a major component that should never have failed. It can be a real setback for them financially.
I've worked around enough people who bought foreign brands (when they built them over yonder) and never would own up to the problems which they did have. Sometimes they didn't know because they took the cars in for the dealer-demanded, intimidated service and paid the bill and recalls and changes were made then even without the owner's knowledge (secret recalls). But when I'd start quizzing them about where their car was last week from the parking lot, it would come out it was at the dealer for this or that.
All cars have problems. Frankly I'd not want the transmission problems of Camry and Hondas currently. And other cars may have more or fewer problems. The JDPowers surveys analyzed show that the number of problems is only slightly different between the most of the cars.
Years ago, I worked with a guy who had a 1984 Honda Accord who religiously brought it in for the very expensive dealer-recommended service intervals. Three hundred dollars to check belts and fluids? Geeze, I could've done everything they did for nothing.
That was always my only complaint about my Honda's - the service cost. The biggest cost was getting the valves adjusted every 15,000 miles. Then the recommended service changed to every 30,000 miles, then changed to 30,000 miles and never again unless they were noisy. Now Honda finally says only adjust them if they are noisy, and I have yet to have noisy valves.
My second biggest service cost complaint was the timing belts. They were 60,000 miles, then 90,000 miles, then 105,000 miles. My 2006 Civic has a timing chain and it says nothing about ever changing. My pilot still has the belts so I'm sure that will cost me at 7 years/105,000 miles.
And the two I have now have the new Honda Maintenance Minder system. My service manual does not mention anything about time or mileage for service items, other than a brake fluid change every three years regardless of miles. (The vehicles were advertised to go over 100,000 miles without a tune up also.) The OBC basically tells you when and what service you need and Honda is adamant about following the system. The dealer even now says to follow the minder system only. No more overpriced inspections. My Civic went 7,000 miles to the first oil change and the Pilot has 4,000 miles with 40% oil life remaining. So they are listening to the customers and cutting down on the maintenance costs.
My Civic went 7,000 miles to the first oil change and the Pilot has 4,000 miles with 40% oil life remaining. So they are listening to the customers and cutting down on the maintenance costs. Wow, my 15 year old Honda has a thing that goes from green to yellow to red to remind me when I need maintenance (read:oil change). It turns yellow at 7000 miles and red at 7500. Hmm lets see, 4000 miles with 40% left, thats wait carry the 1...yup about 7000 miles. Just like your Civic and my 15 year old Accord. This is really new and innovated for sure :P but hey, if it stops the dealers from gouging, I'm all for it.
I think both systems were designed to keep dealers from gouging. However, your 15 year old system simply went by the odometer mileage and nothing else. I've had them before in previous Honda's. Do you have to use your key in the gauge cluster to reset it?
The new ones supposedly keep track of the number of engine revolutions and RPM's, etc....thus taking into consideration more of driving habits verses just miles driven (highway vs city).
And with my Civic, it had 20% left when I changed it at 7,000 miles. That's when the little wrench appeared in the dash cluster!!!
BMW and Mercedes have had this system for a while now. In the 80s, BMWs biggest complaint was that maintenance was too expensive. At that point, BMW made maintenance included for the first 4 years/50k or something. At that point, when it was on BMWs dime, they were motivated to reduce maintenance costs, so now they have "lifetime fluids" for transmission and other systems, and they have an "oil life monitor" that tells people when they need to come in for service. To answer your question, yes, I have that thing I push with a key to reset. I actually change the oil myself every 5000 miles because its easier to remember than 7500. I think the algorithm for the oil maintenance is less complicated than we think, I think its based on the engine hours and how much of that is spent at operating temperature. The oil doesn't care how fast the engine is going, just that it has the time to warm up and burn off impurities.
I never thought of it that way (hours vs engine revolutions). But, I guess it would give close to the same end result, would it not? Both would pick up the time idling in city traffic that the odometer would not.
I drive my Civic on the highway to work and back, hence the 7,000 miles. My wife drives the Pilot to work and back in town. We had an Odyssey before that and it would go about 5,000 miles before the 20% mark hit and the wrench came on. I'll be close to 15,000 miles before the second change on my Civic. I would have been on my 5th with my previous Civic's, so right there I've saved about $75.
We are getting way off subject here, but - I have a family member that is service manager for a local Benz dealership. They have lifetime trannie fluid and the trannie is sealed, at least in the model he was telling me about. He had a customer insist on changing the fluid at 60,000 miles. The customer got belligerent with him and insisted it be changed when he tried to advise that it was lifetime fluid. The customer insisted it be done so it was. The customer then got the bill and it was close to $500 to break the seal and change the fluid. He then accused the dealership of ripping him off, but that was the cost with the fluid and labor to do it.....
Where A live A Benz is a really bad car to have, 1 dealer and they do NOT stock parts, so if you ever need work on the car you have to wait for them to get parts, friend of mine had one with a bad water pump and alternator, 2 weeks wait for parts. As for lifetime fluids, that depends on what conditions are where you have the car. I have seen lifetime parts fail in 6 months, amazing what -75f weather does to things on a car, Saturn body panels shatter, Ford/GMC/Chrysler plastic door handles come off in your hands, Real pain when inside door handles break off from cold and windows are frozen shut.
> I live A Benz is a really bad car to have, 1 dealer and they do NOT stock parts
In this area Benz has a low image. A few affluent folks buy them for show or they buy them because they've always bought a Mercedes before their husband passed. The other buyers are young, government-related jobs workers who buy them or lease them as a status symbol. These are usually the smaller, fake models or baby SUVs. When they're out of a job their car will be gone, gone, gone and they'll be complaining about how people have mistreated them by not giving a high enough subsidy payment that they could keep their Benzes.
Why would someone lease them "as a status symbol" if they have a low image in your area?
It's amazing how perceptive you are that those few affluent folks buy them for show or as status symbols.....I suppose the Cadillacs are bought for COMPLETELY different reasons....
Reminds me of Lexus-faithful saying the same thing....MB/BMW are all about status, but not my car! A lot of the same types of people who bought a big Caddy 50-60 years ago buy a Benz or its competition\ now...
I suspect on the worldwide luxo front, MB still indeed has the best image of any maker. The brand can easily afford to turn up its nose at middle America, should these amazing stories of a bad image be true (not saying they are).
Saw your post. Was behind a Mercedes, looked new, with no number or model labeling on the rear. It had taillights that flashed a bright light at the instant they're turned on. I didn't notice that when it was moving, but did end up behind the car and I think that's what it did.
It had an outline on the trunk around the license about like the 3.5RLs my neighbor has that are a few years old.
What model was that? BTW I didn't ask the driver why he bought it or leased it, but he was 55-60 and really enjoying kicking it. It really moved out nicely.
Hmmm that's a toughie. I think LED lights are standard across the E and S now (and to give credit to Caddy, they adopted this innovation earlier), so I think it was a debadged E or S class. Both cars often get debadged in lower trim levels, especially the 2000-2006 S.
I have an IS350 and it's not as popular as the BMW 3-series so I think the chance of that happening is lower than if I bought a 3-series. On the other hand, if the Lexus I have is the ES then it's a completely different story.
I dunno...it might sell in smaller numbers than the 3er it targets, but percentage-wise I suspect the badge makes it attract as many attention seekers as any others. All upper end nameplates are involved in this, probably to similar levels.
I didn't say it clearly about the brake lights. It seemed that a bright strobe flash occurred when the brake lights went on. I believe they were LEDs too.
The car had no number on the back. The E's on the edmunds.com all showed a number. The S's have a different aero room from this one.
Oh OK. I don't know about that strobe flash. But LEDs are the way of the future, so that might be what you saw. When I get behind a several year old Deville and see the LED brake lights come on, the abruptness always catches my eye too. And LEDs look cool.
All MBs leave the factory with rear badging, but some owners choose to remove it, it's been a custom since the 60s, usually happening to lower line cars that are otherwise identical on the exterior to highline cars. You'll most often see it on 80s S-class.
This is not the right place to discuss this but I do have a question...
What or whom does Lexus pretend to be?
Also, following your line of thought, since Aston Martin, Lambo, Masserati, Bentley, Rolls and etc all don't have a "fairly large group that runs their cars on a track" then I guess they are all pretenders huh? :confuse:
folks just GOTTA have something or their status in life is shattered...
I had a bankruptcy client a number of years back, he had to surrender his house because he could not make the mortgage payment, but he had to keep his Benz and its $800/month payment...he said to me, with a straight face, that he insisted on driving quality automobiles, and Mercedes was the best...
I guess he had a Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Things are different today. If the guy was well-off enough to (barely) afford a Mercedes, he'd be forced into a Chapter 13 with the draconian new bankruptcy law. This new law was meant for guys like him, but I feel sorry for people who are forced into this situation due to catastrophic illness or unemployment.
I drove the new Sebring at the Boston Auto Show on Saturday. Sedate, quiet, smooth power from the 2.7l model. The Interior was on par with the Altima but not close to the Accord or the new Camry. The older Camry though... much more interesting and as nicely built.
Exterior wise, the exterior has A LOT going for it. It is an elegant design, chrome in just the right places and the profile is not too far off from a "Mini 300". I thought it was going to be kinda disappointing in the skin, but I gotta say that the exterior really caught my attention.
Of course the Sebring has always been relegated to fleet sales, but this one may break that mold. I am eagerly anticipating the new Avenger and Sebring verts after seeing the newest Chrysler.
Yea chrysler spends lots on cosmetic design to make it appealing to the eyes, just wish they would spend as much on build materials and design to make a quality product, but companies have found people will buy a good looking product before a higher quality product, is sad that too many people and companies base purchase/design on appearance not ability/quality.
the benefit for the company is that they can build a sub quality product that looks good and sell it cheaper than a high quality product and when the product breaks people will buy another.
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Rocky
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Rocky
Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061010/UPDATE/610100421/1148- /AUTO01
More bad PR for Toyota. :surprise:
Rocky
GM and Ford have plants in Canada and Mexico that make cars, engines, and other car parts for cars that are sold here in America. They make cars in other countries too. The GTO - Australia, even though it is a Pontiac with a legendary name. Yes they are head quartered in America. But does that mean they are American? Can a foreigner buy stock in GM or Ford, or purchase debt from the companies for an investment yield return? Yes. So if foreigners buy stock or debt in GM or Ford, the earnings still get passed outside of America, even if they are an American company that employs American workers. So the whole thought process here is to keep America employed so we can continue to carry our world leading standard of living.
So, if I buy a GTO, is it American, or is my Honda Civic built in Ohio more American? Honda builds cars, engines and parts in America, Canada and other counties for their American sold cars, just like GM and Ford. Yes, Honda is a Japanese company, but can I invest in their stock or debt? Yes. So, in theory, their earnings could get passed to Americans.
So what would be better? An American based company owned by foreigners that sells and builds cars and parts here in America and ships the profits out of the country? Or a foreign company that builds and sells cars and parts in America and ships the profits to America. It's a tough call.
And let's add another twist. Honda's hold their resale more that GM and Ford cars. So if I buy a Honda that has much better resale and better yet, less true cost to own overall, than I raise my standard of living by investing less of my resources on automotive products. I can then use that money for something else like purchasing a new furnace, etc. from a local contractor, for example. Honda employs many American people, plus it helps fee up money to spend with other people. So, is a Honda or a comparable GM or Ford more helpful to the economy? Do I want to raise my standard of living or the standard of living for a GM or Ford employee?
I buy Honda's and consider them American, because the parts and cars are made here in America and they employee many Americans, especially here in Ohio where I live, and they tend to have lower true cost to own.
However, Honda (Odyssey transmissions) and Toyota (engine sludge) have had their problems with long term reliability too. The difference is how they own up to it. Both Honda and Toyota stepped up with extended warranties for potential problem vehicles.
On top of that, I have had several items fixed free of charge when my Hondas were out of warranty. The dealer has told me that Honda will generally pay for items that "shouldn't have happened" as long as I can prove good maintenance records. Just try to see if GM will pay for a dash light that burns out two years out of warranty, and takes two hours to repair by the dealer. Or ask them for a new transmission if yours goes out with over 100,000 miles on it.
I started buying Honda's since 1993 when Ford burned me on two separate vehicles. In 2002, I decided to buy a Pontiac since domestics were supposedly "better". That was a disaster that took me right back to the Honda dealer.
If anyone wants to see it, I have a page of problems I had with my Pontiac that all started with delivery.
I don't feel guilty about buying Honda's either. They employ a lot of people here in Ohio, and I have many customers, family and friends that work for suppliers of both Honda and Toyota in the area.
Errrr, did you check that replacement warranty for all those years of Honda trannies to which they did own up about the inherent problems and how long they warranties the replacements? It stops at 100,000 miles. So you're on your own then if you choose to continue to own the car. Otherwise the resale value is down because most people know they have problems.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Me personally, I would never even had complained about it, let alone asking for a trannie!!! And it does not really hurt the resale value because most issues showed up before the 100,000 mile mark. And the dealer usually can find out if it already has been worked on or not.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A co-worker's 2000 Impala was diagnosed with this problem. Fortunately, the dealer caught it before there was any engine damage, so she only needed to have the gasket replaced, which cost about $400. The dealer was going to make her pay for it, but I found the TSB and printed it out for her. When she took the TSB to the dealer, he called GM, and GM paid for the repair.
In the end, GM stepped up to the plate - but only because she was armed with the TSB. She knew nothing about it before I told her. (The dealer certainly wasn't very helpful.) Think of how GM could have improved customer relations by sending her a letter and telling her to have it replaced BEFORE any problems developed.
The same failure occurred with my parents' 1999 Buick Park Avenue. On their way home from Kansas, they stopped along the Pennsylvania Turnpike. When they went to restart the car, it wouldn't turn over. The car was towed to their hometown dealer (fortunately, they were only about 40 miles from home) and diagnosed with major engine damage caused by a failed intake manifold gasket. The cost of repair came to about $1,400, which they paid for, as the car had over 110,000 miles on it.
Fortunately for GM, my father is of the old school - "After 100,000 miles, you really can't complain." And up until that point, the car had been very reliable (not to mention roomy and economical for its size), so my parents are satisfied that they have received their money's worth. If anything, my father recently asked me about the new Buick Lucerne, as it caught his eye when he was at the dealer.
And yes, the 160K replacement was an Odyssey with the troubled transmission. My point was that Honda did something, where GM or Ford would have not. The poster who mentioned that GM replaced a bad manifold gasket was definitely an isolated incident.
I apologize if I sound like a fanatic, but it's just from my experience. And because of my job, I talk to people and even car dealers about cars and have heard many many horror stories. I have seen many working class people get stuck with a car repair bill for a major component that should never have failed. It can be a real setback for them financially.
All cars have problems. Frankly I'd not want the transmission problems of Camry and Hondas currently. And other cars may have more or fewer problems. The JDPowers surveys analyzed show that the number of problems is only slightly different between the most of the cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My second biggest service cost complaint was the timing belts. They were 60,000 miles, then 90,000 miles, then 105,000 miles. My 2006 Civic has a timing chain and it says nothing about ever changing. My pilot still has the belts so I'm sure that will cost me at 7 years/105,000 miles.
And the two I have now have the new Honda Maintenance Minder system. My service manual does not mention anything about time or mileage for service items, other than a brake fluid change every three years regardless of miles. (The vehicles were advertised to go over 100,000 miles without a tune up also.) The OBC basically tells you when and what service you need and Honda is adamant about following the system. The dealer even now says to follow the minder system only. No more overpriced inspections. My Civic went 7,000 miles to the first oil change and the Pilot has 4,000 miles with 40% oil life remaining. So they are listening to the customers and cutting down on the maintenance costs.
Wow, my 15 year old Honda has a thing that goes from green to yellow to red to remind me when I need maintenance (read:oil change). It turns yellow at 7000 miles and red at 7500. Hmm lets see, 4000 miles with 40% left, thats wait carry the 1...yup about 7000 miles. Just like your Civic and my 15 year old Accord.
This is really new and innovated for sure :P but hey, if it stops the dealers from gouging, I'm all for it.
The new ones supposedly keep track of the number of engine revolutions and RPM's, etc....thus taking into consideration more of driving habits verses just miles driven (highway vs city).
And with my Civic, it had 20% left when I changed it at 7,000 miles.
To answer your question, yes, I have that thing I push with a key to reset. I actually change the oil myself every 5000 miles because its easier to remember than 7500.
I think the algorithm for the oil maintenance is less complicated than we think, I think its based on the engine hours and how much of that is spent at operating temperature. The oil doesn't care how fast the engine is going, just that it has the time to warm up and burn off impurities.
I drive my Civic on the highway to work and back, hence the 7,000 miles. My wife drives the Pilot to work and back in town. We had an Odyssey before that and it would go about 5,000 miles before the 20% mark hit and the wrench came on. I'll be close to 15,000 miles before the second change on my Civic. I would have been on my 5th with my previous Civic's, so right there I've saved about $75.
We are getting way off subject here, but - I have a family member that is service manager for a local Benz dealership. They have lifetime trannie fluid and the trannie is sealed, at least in the model he was telling me about. He had a customer insist on changing the fluid at 60,000 miles. The customer got belligerent with him and insisted it be changed when he tried to advise that it was lifetime fluid. The customer insisted it be done so it was. The customer then got the bill and it was close to $500 to break the seal and change the fluid. He then accused the dealership of ripping him off, but that was the cost with the fluid and labor to do it.....
As for lifetime fluids, that depends on what conditions are where you have the car.
I have seen lifetime parts fail in 6 months, amazing what -75f weather does to things on a car, Saturn body panels shatter, Ford/GMC/Chrysler plastic door handles come off in your hands, Real pain when inside door handles break off from cold and windows are frozen shut.
In this area Benz has a low image. A few affluent folks buy them for show or they buy them because they've always bought a Mercedes before their husband passed. The other buyers are young, government-related jobs workers who buy them or lease them as a status symbol. These are usually the smaller, fake models or baby SUVs. When they're out of a job their car will be gone, gone, gone and they'll be complaining about how people have mistreated them by not giving a high enough subsidy payment that they could keep their Benzes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why would someone lease them "as a status symbol" if they have a low image in your area?
It's amazing how perceptive you are that those few affluent folks buy them for show or as status symbols.....I suppose the Cadillacs are bought for COMPLETELY different reasons....
I suspect on the worldwide luxo front, MB still indeed has the best image of any maker. The brand can easily afford to turn up its nose at middle America, should these amazing stories of a bad image be true (not saying they are).
One of the reasons I choose Lexus over BMW is because I don't want other people to think that I bought the BMW just because it's a BMW.
Saw your post. Was behind a Mercedes, looked new, with no number or model labeling on the rear. It had taillights that flashed a bright light at the instant they're turned on. I didn't notice that when it was moving, but did end up behind the car and I think that's what it did.
It had an outline on the trunk around the license about like the 3.5RLs my neighbor has that are a few years old.
What model was that? BTW I didn't ask the driver why he bought it or leased it, but he was 55-60 and really enjoying kicking it. It really moved out nicely.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The car had no number on the back. The E's on the edmunds.com all showed a number. The S's have a different aero room from this one.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
All MBs leave the factory with rear badging, but some owners choose to remove it, it's been a custom since the 60s, usually happening to lower line cars that are otherwise identical on the exterior to highline cars. You'll most often see it on 80s S-class.
What or whom does Lexus pretend to be?
Also, following your line of thought, since Aston Martin, Lambo, Masserati, Bentley, Rolls and etc all don't have a "fairly large group that runs their cars on a track" then I guess they are all pretenders huh? :confuse:
Hmm...very interesting.
I had a bankruptcy client a number of years back, he had to surrender his house because he could not make the mortgage payment, but he had to keep his Benz and its $800/month payment...he said to me, with a straight face, that he insisted on driving quality automobiles, and Mercedes was the best...
You guessed it, he surrendered that, too...
Rocky
http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/01/magazines/fortune/pluggedin_taylor_SUVsales.fort- - une/index.htm?postversion=2006110212&CFID=10960948&CFTOKEN=55685975
Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061107/AUTO01/611070343
Rocky
thanx for giving us your personal experience.
I do find the new Sebring attractive. However I personally would never own one but it should be a better Sebring I agree.
Rocky
Of course the Sebring has always been relegated to fleet sales, but this one may break that mold. I am eagerly anticipating the new Avenger and Sebring verts after seeing the newest Chrysler.
the benefit for the company is that they can build a sub quality product that looks good and sell it cheaper than a high quality product and when the product breaks people will buy another.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky