Heck, even if I, myself, am not affected by poverty, unemployment/underemployment, I still don't want to see members of my family, friends, neighbors, or even strangers suffer from these ills through no fault of their own. I don't want to see a once vibrant city turn into a crime-infested ghetto because some greedy suit decides to close a factory and move it to China to make even more money he couldn't possibly spend. Camden, NJ and Chester, PA were once thriving communities with a solid industrial base. Now, these deindustrialized towns are so dangerous I wouldn't stop in either of them to ask for directions. Some idiot is banking on a casino to revive Chester. Good luck in getting anybody to come. If somebody won a big jackpot, how would he be able to get out of town without being robbed and/or killed?
I asked to compare, I don't need anyone to ask me anything, thanks. If we are being forced to directly compete, everything should be directly compared. Are we being spoiled, really? Because the US government, even with all its problems, is nothing like the tyrannical bunch of monsters who run China? Because there is some degree of environmental and social responsibility in the first world? Because people making a wage to support a family to even a modest degree of comfort are the backbone of this society?
Are they really "efficient", or do they just settle for less because they have no choice? It's easier to repress the poor than to repress those who aren't hungry.
"Don't see myself anywhere other than being a middle class citizen in 50 years."
Hmmm nice hypocrisy. Please stop looking at things from your own perspective. That's a hilarious way of dodging the question, and really answers all I needed to know. Thanks!
Ok, what happens to all those "incompetent" people? Do we simply let them starve to death in the streets? Do we put them all in prison or concentration camps? I don't care how wealthy or successful I am if all I see through the window of my limousine is third-world poverty and enormous suffering.
If I were one of the so-called elite, I'd be darn afraid of what is happening to the poor and middle class of this country. If they get angry, start rioting, and overthrow the establishment, I could find myself against a bullet pockmarked wall or have my neck in a guillotine.
First of all, you asked if I see middle class in the future and my answer is YES because I don't see myself anywhere other than being a middle class citizen. Is that hypocrisy? Hmm...I really don't think so.
So now you want to compare to China as equals huh? Why didn't we do that 150 years ago when all the Western imperalists were trying to colonize China? Why didn't we do that 50 years ago when China was suffering from the cultural revolution? What happened to being equals back then? Now all of the sudden they become a competitor and we decided they have to play by our rules. Is that fair? You don't need to answer it but ask yourself.
Maybe you did not notice, the Chinese labor aren't as cheap as they were 10 years ago. The middle class is growing rapidly in China as well as the living standard. This is a process, one day China will lose its cheap labor advantage and they'll be forced to adapt just like the US does right now. We can't fault them just because they started to develop 50 years later than us. Please don't forget that while US prosper during the post WWII era, there are 1.2 billions of Chinese suffering from poverty and war.
UAW workers might be able to work for 1/10th of their wages IF everyone else in America took a 90% reduction.
You might want to step off that HIGH horse that you're on and take a real hard look at America. It's a better place with better people than you give credit!
Many people around the world don't like America because: a. They listen to false propaganda from extremist. b. They have had a run-in with an arrogant American. c. They are jealous and believe that they would have it better if we didn't have it so good. d. They are happy being the ignorant one and resent American assistance (financial, humanitarian, etc...).
Back to the American automobile... Support your own country in words and dollars. It's not perfect, so help make it better. It won't take 50 years to decline, at least at our current pace, it won't.
Sure, if I could buy a nice house for $10K-$15K or a nice new car for around $2,500 and my healthcare was guaranteed, I guess I could live well on 1/10 of my wage. Trouble is, the crappiest houses in marginal neighborhoods are like $100K+ and a decent car is $25,000 minimum.
I understand and I feel the same way. I'm not UAW or even a fan of UAW. However, I tire of seeing posts of American cars would be better if the UAW didn't demand so much. (partially true - to a point) However, there's NOT just one reason that the American car industry or American manufacturing is shipping jobs overseas. There are several.
Investors demand high returns. Consumers demand low costs. Workers demand a better living. Management attempts to balance all three. Usually, personnel costs are singled out as the most costly expense. Weak/lazy management goes for the biggest payback (cut personnel) to show what they can accomplish. They should be making improvements in materials, efficiency, energy reduction, overhead expense (think BIG bonus), distribution, etc...
Also, weak local governments offer attractive incentives to entice new devlopment and jobs in their area. They do this, because of their voter (their investor and customer) demands. So, providing a low-cost advantage to a foreign can manufacturer helps their local economy, but at what expense to America?
It goes on and on. Every action has at least one reaction. Every economic decision has at least one consequence.
The first law of economics is Supply and Demand. An extension of this basic law is to provide a means for those in demand to obtain the supply. In short, no money - no sale.
"Support your own country in words and dollars. It's not perfect, so help make it better."
Sometimes, supporting our own country (manufacturers) with words and dollars DOESN'T help make it better.
GM (and Ford) improved their product because the consumer was NOT supporting them in words and dollars. It's called 'competition' and it improves things for EVERYBODY. Except, of course, for those who either can't or WON'T compete.
In the case of 'exploiting' foreign labor (has anyone thought to ask the foreign laborer if he considers himself 'exploited'?), it makes the products we spend money on less expensive and it provides work overseas.
Yes, the end result of all this will be fewer manufacturing jobs in the U.S. And it sucks for those who CAN'T do anything except work in the manufacturing industry. Of course 150 years ago, 9 out of 10 people in this country work in the agricultural industry and were equally fearful when the industrial revolution wiped out all their jobs.
Middle class in the future for the US. I personally am not concerned with your personal future...you could strike it rich or become a pauper, and it's no skin off my back. Your finances aren't the issue. What do you think for the future of the typical American? Is it prosperous, or less than great?
Don't deflect with irrelevant historical comparisons. In the past (arguably artifically) cheap Chinese labor was no threat to domestic well-being. If labor is going to be compared as equals, then social, economic, and environmental responsibilities need to be put on the same footing.
There are plenty of Chinese suffering today, while we continue to support one of the worst regimes on the planet.
What do I think for the future of the typical American? Hmm...let me think, first of all I consider myself as a typical American and I see myself being (and staying) in the middle class in 50 years so what do I think? America social-economic situation is not a bad as you thought. Many people are adapting, they went back to re-educate themselves, finding other jobs and raise the next generations to be adaptive and prepared. The competent will survive and the incompetent won't.
You were right, there are still plenty of Chinese suffering today and you have no idea how happy they are to see new manufacturing plants popping up left and right around them. Those people do not ask for vacation time, pension and health care, all they want is an everyday job so they can feed their family. Compare the UAW workers to them, whom do you think is spoiled? Just like some other person said earlier, our society went through the industrial revolution all right we'll also went through the "rise of oversea cheap labor era" all right as well. Humans are known to be adaptive and the competent will survive.
It's nice to see someone is very optimistic. I guess I see all these "100 years ago people adapted so today they will do likewise" claims to be kind of pie in the sky. What will these new jobs be, where will the y be, will they provide any semblance of a decent standard of living? I can't be optimistic when all I see are promises with little behind them.
When you have nothing, nothing plus a pittance looks very attractive, but that doesn't mean it is just. Why is asking for a decent standard of living "spoiled"? Shouldn't life be about more than working for food? Ever stop to think that Chinese compensation is artificially low, rather than western compensation being too high?
This "incompetent won't survive" bit again being used towards people rather than industries amuses me too. So will the "incompetent" just be shot into space or killed off (nah, that's too Chinese) or something?
This society does let people starve to death and die of basic medical conditions and any number of other easily prevented things. When you drive through town and see people holding signs "Will Work for Food" and take a look at the number of homeless disabled vets and homeless families. The number of vets returning from Iraq that have been crippled that have lost their homes and are now forced to live in shelters or on the street is disgusting, the US government does not even really take care of military people that are crippled for life doing their duty.
Way off topic here, but try actually working with those people as opposed to looking at the media for information. They weren't downsized out of a job because most of them couldn't hold a job in the first place, due to substance abuse problems, mental health issues or an old-fashioned lack of desire for regular employment. (In the old days, they were called bums or hoboes, but I guess in these politically correct times we must dress them up with a new title - "the homeless.") And don't believe all of the stories you read about the supposedly high rates of homelessness among vets...those stories tend to evaporate when examined closely.
As for buying American cars - Ford and GM are moving more production out of the country. Meanwhile, Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai are building cars here, and employing fellow Americans. I would imagine that people concerned about jobs in America would applaud their presence and argue in favor of buying the vehicle from the transplants...except suddenly we are exhorted to pay attention to where the money goes when we buy that Honda, Toyota, etc.
Then it is pointed out that GM and Ford have European subsidiaries that have often propped up the failing North American operations, so using the above logic, Europeans should not buy a Ford or a Vauxhall/Opel. All of sudden "where the money goes" doesn't matter.
Perhaps some should just admit that they can't stand the fact that the Japanese are building cars here - and apparently doing a better job of it, based on the sales and customer satisfaction numbers - and that what is really desired is time travel back to 1965, when virtually everyone drove a Big Four product.
I agree with grbeck on this one. Try working with the aformentioned people. I have and do on a daily bases. The vast majority (but not all) do not get any better dispite years and years worth of repeat hospital visits (which many receve for free at any VA medical center). Most cant pay there bills but they will never be refused treatment. In many cities they can and do stop police cars just to transport them back to the hospital post a drug binge. Work with them and many welfare recipients and you will see that it is you doing all the work. P.S. I grew up on welfare, I know what its like, I found my way out with the help of the public school system in alabama. Opertunity is given, most arent willing to grasp it. The system did not fail to help them, they failed themselves by not accepting help or not trying.
EDIT: also if you are wondering why many states are having a rash of hospital closings its because theyare going bankrupt due to free care given to many illegal immigrents and the aformentioned welfare and medicare recipiants. It costs the actual tax payers a tremendous amount of money each time a cocane addict overdoses. Do you know what a trip to the ER costs? Dispite this I do think they disearve care. Just not more then what they have now.
I was nearly one of those homeless vets, only reason I kept a roof over my head is that my place is paid for, I broke my neck and totaled my back in the marines, for 4 years I had to live without an income while I fought VA and Social Security, If I hadn't had money saved and had a place that I didn't owe any money on I would have been one of those on the street with a sign. I was turned down jobs because I couldn't afford to join the union, was also given all sorts of other lame [non-permissible content removed] excuses for not getting hired. I have friends that came back from the gulf and Iraq that are losing everything, they are out of the military from injuries and can't get a job because no one wants to hire someone with medical problems. as for the quality of domestic brand cars getting stuck in the middle of nowhere when you can barely walk is a great incentive to never buy that brand again.
I would love to buy American. But GM and Ford are not building the kind of cars I want. At least not at the quality level of the Asians.
I was born in 1937 so I have owned my share of American cars. But we started to go bad in the mid to late 50's. The quality just was not there by the late 60's. My first Asian car was a new 1983 Honda Accord hatch back. I have never owned a better car.
Let me try and define the word "Better" for you.
Low cost. Great gas millage. Almost no problems. After 100,000+ miles and 18 years of service. I paid $8,000 for it and sold it to a friend for $1,000 in 2001. It was worth $1,600. And $1,600 is what he got for it a couple of years later.
You can not do that with American cars.
We would much rather produce Suvs that cost from 30 to 50 thousand dollars plus, and get horrible gas mileage, and God only knows what resale value they will have in the future. My guess is that used Suvs will be selling for 25 cents on the dollar in the not to distant future due to high gas prices. And that will be for fairly new ones.
I pray to God I am wrong! We desperately need our auto industry. But, Why Oh Why, wont they get there heads out of the sand?
The mentality of current corporate america is to grab as much money now and forget about the future. that is why most of the big 3 auto makers and the UAW build the garbage they do, the company will cut every corner they can using the cheapest crap they can get and the workers will do as little as they can get away with and still make their money with no concern or pride in their work.
Please remember that this forum is intended to be a resource for automotive related discussions and that this particular discussion thread is entitled "Buying American CARS- What Does That Mean?". This is NOT a forum to discuss general political ideologies, moral issues, or anything unrelated to the subject of this discussion.
Several personally directed and inflammatory posts have been removed and any other posts not specifically relevant to the topic of this discussion will be removed without further notice.
We appreciate your ongoing help in making this forum a place where topics related to the automotive industry can be discussed within an atmosphere of respect both for other members as well as for the subject at hand.
As interesting as these post are, here's a car post.
If I were to buy an American car today, it would probably be____________. It would be a good value for my dollar and most of it would be built and assembled in the states. I'm not looking for a new car today, so I haven't done my homework on the following cars, but these are the ones that interest me.
I like the Cadillac CTS and Saturn Aura (although I have yet to visit a dealership to check it out). I also like the Toyota Camry (built in KY). I was intereseted in the Buick Enclave, Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia until I learned that they'll be as big as the Tahoe/Yukon (just shorter in height).
I personally don't care for the style or size of the Chrysler 300. Ford has nothing that I would consider, but the Mustang and it's not what I need.
My immediate answer to your question would be a Cadillac DTS. Alternate answers would be Buick Lucerne or Chrysler 300-C. If they build it, I'd go for the Imperial even as ugly as it might be. It's ugly cool.
Y'all had some great posts. I am going to make mine brief. J/K :P
Look at the new upcoming models from the domestics. I agree not all models have been "refurbished" but the domestics are showing great leaps in quality, reliability, fit and finish. The only area's they need to keep improving is customer service-> from sale of the vehicle to the service center. I will also add perhaps in the latest est technology/gadget logy. I'm beginning to see concepts and new product launches that I wouldn't mind owning. The all new 2007' GMC Sierra Denali is one I'm taking a hard look at. The new Lincoln MKS is one I think I'm going to really like, and the new Buick Enclave sure is a looker if Lutz, keeps the bean counters away from it. I'm currently adding my $0.02 on the Enclave. I belong to the Enclave advisory panel. My "friends of Buick" forum pals and I are trying to still pressure GM, into making the Buick Velite Roadster/Convertible so the Buick, brand has a halo/image car to be proud of. :shades:
I openly admit I've had frustrations with GM and their products in the past. I also am the type who is willing to give them a second chance in the near future. Mark LaNeve, is trying to make the GM, dealerships comply with customer service areas. I still think he has alot of work ahead of him to get them where they need to be.
IMHO, when it comes to buying cars and how it affects on the american economy nobody has the affect that GM does. Ford also is a close second. Alot of people think just because a car is "assembled" here in the united states it's an american car. One also should factor in the "content" also. Sure their are a few Japanese nameplates that are assembled here and also have a high domestic content, however the Big 3 on avg. across the board are way ahead in that department.
"I will also add perhaps in the latestest technology/gadgetlogy."
You want gadgetology? Check this: the upcoming Acura MDX will have a GPS enabled automatic climate control system.
Now what, you may be wondering, would a GPS enabled climate control system do? Easy, using GPS the system knows which windows the sun is shining through and adjusts the HVAC accordingly.
When I read this in the latest C&D, I instantly thought of you rock.....
Yeah rorr, I already new about that feature. I will tell you rorr, I've been following the RDX and MDX closely over the last 6 months. Why ? Well as a previous owner of Acura, I new they'd have some new Gadgetology. I guess rorr, I'm all about those Geee Whiz techno crap that most folks don't really care about. :P I just love them gadgets like GPS climate control
I don't understand why Acura hasn't still installed ventilated seats yet !!! :surprise: I was just postive the new TL Type-S would have them. I was dead wrong pal !!!
I am now anticipating the new Caddy CTS. Will it have some new gadgets is the question I'm asking myself and want to ask GM. I honestly rorr, don't want to buy a 07' GMC Denali quite yet because what if the CTS, is close to perfect ? I don't want to risk the CTS, getting lottsa gadgets plus 500-600 horsepower with a stick on a "V" and then be stuck with a Denali Truck (which isn't a bad thing).... BUT !!!!. I'd shoot my self in the foot !!!! :surprise:
Yeah, I was thinking as I drove along in my LeSabre with two sensors on the dash to determine which side of the cockpit has sunload so it can adapt the output of the ACC to the correct adjustment on each side, "This really should be controlled by a GPS input so the system can have more things to go wrong with it, just like Honda's transmissions, and it can adjust the sunload temps just like my 98 LeSabre." LOLROF
"Yeah, I was thinking as I drove along in my LeSabre with two sensors on the dash to determine which side of the cockpit has sunload..."
Well, thats terrific imidazol97, but I rarely sit on the dashboard while I drive. And for that matter, I don't ever recall my wife sitting on the dashboard either. We usually use the seats.
Unless those wonderful dashboard sensors can tell when the sunlight is hitting the PASSENGERS rather than just the dashboard, I'm not sure just how your system is better? After all, on many occasions the dashboard my be in direct sunlight, yet the driver/passenger may be in the shade.
>Well, thats terrific imidazol97, but I rarely sit on the dashboard while I drive. And for that matter, I don't ever recall my wife sitting on the dashboard either. We usually use the seats.
That's a disrespectful comment. I guess that's par.
The sensors are positioned so sun coming from the right hits the one on that side,... oh why try to explain, you'll just come back with another of your silly comments.
"The sensors are positioned so sun coming from the right hits the one on that side,... oh why try to explain, you'll just come back with another of your silly comments."
Okay, before we all go off the deep end, a couple of comments.
First, I was simply pointing out to our resident 'gadgetology' freak a new gadget he might not have been aware of. I should have known better; as usual, rocky was WELL up on all the latest doodads that might be hitting the market.
When I pointed out the new system in the Acura, I was NOT attempting a "hey, look at this as another example of where GM is screwing up and the imports are better". I was just attempting a bit of humor. Rocky apparently got it; you apparently didn't.
However, it seems that you took it that way with your instinctive, reflexive knee-jeck reaction post supporting GM by saying your GM car has always had two temperature sensors to determine temp on each side of the car. Well, that's just freaking great. Gee, I guess that NOBODY else ever thought to put twin temp sensors on the dashboard. Now WHAT IN THE HECK could Acura be thinking with this fancy-schmancy new GPS climate control system. (BTW - that last bit was sarcasm.)
Last point; rocky and I very rarely agree on anything (however, on this point, I'll bet rocky DOES agree ). However, that doesn't mean that rocky and I can't trade the occasional barbs without getting our whities all in a bunch. In fact, of all the posters on these forums, rocky is THE one I'd most like to share a beer with. That's because it IS possible for two folks with diametrically opposing viewpoints to get along.
Disrespectful comment? I apologize if you took it that way. I was simply relaying to you, in my normal sarcastic manner, that PERHAPS Acura feels that temp sensors mounted on the dash DON'T always accurately reflect the temps perceived by the driver and passengers. PERHAPS Acura felt that the HVAC system would be more responsive to the driver/passenger if some means was devised to measure sunloads ON THE PASSENGERS.
Now, I have no idea how effective Acura's system is. Frankly, I don't care. I've always had a manual HVAC system and don't feel overly 'burdened' at the thought (oh horrors) of extending my finger over to the controls and manually adjusting fan speed/direction/temp. For me, simpler is better (insert joke here). However, for rockylee, I figured the Acura's GPS-enabled HVAC would be right up his alley. See, it doesn't MATTER how effective that system might be or not. Rocky likes it because it's COOL.
Silly comments? I'll try to spare those for you in the future.
Do you have a link to info about how the GPS info is utilized? How does position on the earth tell what the weather is at the time?
If there is no sun due to rain or overcast sky, how does it know not to adjust for the sun comiing in the right rear window and put extra cooling or less heat to the passenger side--unless it has local sun load sensors?
I gotta say that although I think this new Acura GPS HVAC thingy is a bit overkill but you've got to give them credit for trying implementing new features on their products.
In my mind, Acura is always the gadget leader. However, where is the push button start/off? I am not that into gadgets like Rocky does but after getting used to the push button start/off and keyless operation I can't stand the cars without it anymore. I guess I am being spoiled by Lexus.
"...but you've got to give them credit for trying implementing new features on their products."
Well, it gets folks into the showrooms. I've no idea how effective it is.
I wonder why not just place a battery of IR sensors in the car which can read the temps directly off of the folks inside? Heck, the system could generate a temperature topographic map of every individual in the car and adjust temps/fan speed out of each individual register (or even automatically direct the register vanes to direct airflow directly to the warmer reasons and 'track' the passengers as they moved).
I mean for crying out loud, where does it stop? Jeez, if I feel hot, I reach a finger over and adjust the fan/temp.
Doodads sells cars. And there's nothing wrong with that; it gives the proud new owner something to crow about to the neighbor over the backyard fence. Personally, I don't give a rip. I want precise steering and brake feel, a responsive chassis, and a good stickshift and clutch setup. The rest of it is just sugar.
A horse and buggy could get the same job done as your Buick, but I don't think there would be many takers for that idea. Just like there aren't many takers for Buicks. Like it or not, gadgets and gizmos sell, advanced powertrains sell, and just because Buicks most advanced contribution to the modern ride is heated washer fluid doesn't give the right to criticize those who actually look for more in a car than four wheels and a steering box. Heck, wipers do the trick, why bother with heated fluid right?
My Dad was one of those "Ford" drivers who liked the basic car - "gadgets are just more stuff to go wrong", he would say. Almost nothing ever went wrong with his cars.
I didn't get that gene, evidently, because I am in love with gadgets. The science behind them just fascinates me. Like "How do they do that"? My Lexus has the keyless entry/start. No, it's not too much trouble to push one button to get in, and insert and turn the key to start the car, nor is this the world's best convenience feature. But it's fun, and I get amazed at how smart they can make my car. For example, one thing I didn't expect my car to do, was save me when I had laid the keys on the seat of the car one day, and got out of the car without the keys. When I tried to lock the car, somehow it knew the keys were inside instead of outside, and refused to lock. And good thing too, if I had locked it, I'd have been screwed.
I don't long for more gadgets than I have - but when I discover one, I love it. So, yes, gadgets sell. And I'm always interested in yet, a better climate control system.
Ignore the GPS climate and look at some of the other "gadgets" that have appeared on even the simplest cars like Buicks for instance:
ABS Airbags Power windows/locks
And these are gadgets that get overlooked all the time because we are just so accustomed to having them as standard equipment. Heck I'd even go so far as to call a Low fuel or low oil light a "gadget" :shades:
Do you have a link to info about how the GPS info is utilized? How does position on the earth tell what the weather is at the time?
I honestly haven't went that far to find out how the system works in detail. I just know about the basic function of the system which I read on the internet somewhere. I think maybe the Acura website ? (don't remember where exactly)
If there is no sun due to rain or overcast sky, how does it know not to adjust for the sun comiing in the right rear window and put extra cooling or less heat to the passenger side--unless it has local sun load sensors?
You got me pal. :confuse: I'm sure Acura, has thought that one through. Does it even really work ? I hope so. I think it would be cool. I've always liked the MDX, alot.
The heat sensors on the dash of my LeSabre are down and way out front so they actually get sun from about 30 degrees toward the back of the car through the windshield and off to the sides about 30+ degrees. So if the sun is shining in the driver's side window it's hitting the sun sensor on that side hard.
I just wonder how the Acura adjusts for cloudy days? Does it call the noaa.com site up for where you are and determine the degree of overcast? Does it have a sensor on the car for overcast or night?
It will be an interesting read to see how they describe that it works.
"Does it have a sensor on the car for overcast or night?"
If it has automatic headlights, I'd say the answer is 'yes'. That would be one way for the system to overide for overcast conditions (or within the shadow of tall buildings, etc.).
In reading a lot of these posts about what is wrong, or what we would like to see in the production of American automobiles to enable our American automobile manufacturing to once again assumed the mantle as the dominant force in car manufacturing, I keep getting the feeling that I have crossed over into “The Twilight Zone.”
Or to put it another way, I keep getting the sensation that I am living, rather than reading, “The Rise and Fall of The Roman Empire.”
Comments
Are they really "efficient", or do they just settle for less because they have no choice? It's easier to repress the poor than to repress those who aren't hungry.
"Don't see myself anywhere other than being a middle class citizen in 50 years."
Hmmm nice hypocrisy. Please stop looking at things from your own perspective. That's a hilarious way of dodging the question, and really answers all I needed to know. Thanks!
They either find gainful employement suitible to their abilities/drive.....or they go on welfare.
"Do we simply let them starve to death in the streets?"
Please point to a SINGLE example of society letting ANYONE starve to death in this country in the last 50 years. And no, Terri Schiavo doesn't count.
"... if all I see through the window of my limousine is third-world poverty and enormous suffering."
You REALLY need to get out of Philadelphia more often.....
So now you want to compare to China as equals huh? Why didn't we do that 150 years ago when all the Western imperalists were trying to colonize China? Why didn't we do that 50 years ago when China was suffering from the cultural revolution? What happened to being equals back then? Now all of the sudden they become a competitor and we decided they have to play by our rules. Is that fair? You don't need to answer it but ask yourself.
Maybe you did not notice, the Chinese labor aren't as cheap as they were 10 years ago. The middle class is growing rapidly in China as well as the living standard. This is a process, one day China will lose its cheap labor advantage and they'll be forced to adapt just like the US does right now. We can't fault them just because they started to develop 50 years later than us. Please don't forget that while US prosper during the post WWII era, there are 1.2 billions of Chinese suffering from poverty and war.
You might want to step off that HIGH horse that you're on and take a real hard look at America. It's a better place with better people than you give credit!
Many people around the world don't like America because:
a. They listen to false propaganda from extremist.
b. They have had a run-in with an arrogant American.
c. They are jealous and believe that they would have it better if we didn't have it so good.
d. They are happy being the ignorant one and resent American assistance (financial, humanitarian, etc...).
Back to the American automobile... Support your own country in words and dollars. It's not perfect, so help make it better. It won't take 50 years to decline, at least at our current pace, it won't.
Sorry, I ain't buying a Mexican-made Ford Fusion if I can buy a Honda Accord/Toyota Camry which is Made in the good ole' USA.
Investors demand high returns. Consumers demand low costs. Workers demand a better living. Management attempts to balance all three. Usually, personnel costs are singled out as the most costly expense. Weak/lazy management goes for the biggest payback (cut personnel) to show what they can accomplish. They should be making improvements in materials, efficiency, energy reduction, overhead expense (think BIG bonus), distribution, etc...
Also, weak local governments offer attractive incentives to entice new devlopment and jobs in their area. They do this, because of their voter (their investor and customer) demands. So, providing a low-cost advantage to a foreign can manufacturer helps their local economy, but at what expense to America?
It goes on and on. Every action has at least one reaction. Every economic decision has at least one consequence.
The first law of economics is Supply and Demand. An extension of this basic law is to provide a means for those in demand to obtain the supply. In short, no money - no sale.
Have a good day!
Sometimes, supporting our own country (manufacturers) with words and dollars DOESN'T help make it better.
GM (and Ford) improved their product because the consumer was NOT supporting them in words and dollars. It's called 'competition' and it improves things for EVERYBODY. Except, of course, for those who either can't or WON'T compete.
In the case of 'exploiting' foreign labor (has anyone thought to ask the foreign laborer if he considers himself 'exploited'?), it makes the products we spend money on less expensive and it provides work overseas.
Yes, the end result of all this will be fewer manufacturing jobs in the U.S. And it sucks for those who CAN'T do anything except work in the manufacturing industry. Of course 150 years ago, 9 out of 10 people in this country work in the agricultural industry and were equally fearful when the industrial revolution wiped out all their jobs.
Don't deflect with irrelevant historical comparisons. In the past (arguably artifically) cheap Chinese labor was no threat to domestic well-being. If labor is going to be compared as equals, then social, economic, and environmental responsibilities need to be put on the same footing.
There are plenty of Chinese suffering today, while we continue to support one of the worst regimes on the planet.
You were right, there are still plenty of Chinese suffering today and you have no idea how happy they are to see new manufacturing plants popping up left and right around them. Those people do not ask for vacation time, pension and health care, all they want is an everyday job so they can feed their family. Compare the UAW workers to them, whom do you think is spoiled? Just like some other person said earlier, our society went through the industrial revolution all right we'll also went through the "rise of oversea cheap labor era" all right as well. Humans are known to be adaptive and the competent will survive.
When you have nothing, nothing plus a pittance looks very attractive, but that doesn't mean it is just. Why is asking for a decent standard of living "spoiled"? Shouldn't life be about more than working for food? Ever stop to think that Chinese compensation is artificially low, rather than western compensation being too high?
This "incompetent won't survive" bit again being used towards people rather than industries amuses me too. So will the "incompetent" just be shot into space or killed off (nah, that's too Chinese) or something?
When you drive through town and see people holding signs "Will Work for Food" and take a look at the number of homeless disabled vets and homeless families.
The number of vets returning from Iraq that have been crippled that have lost their homes and are now forced to live in shelters or on the street is disgusting, the US government does not even really take care of military people that are crippled for life doing their duty.
As for buying American cars - Ford and GM are moving more production out of the country. Meanwhile, Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai are building cars here, and employing fellow Americans. I would imagine that people concerned about jobs in America would applaud their presence and argue in favor of buying the vehicle from the transplants...except suddenly we are exhorted to pay attention to where the money goes when we buy that Honda, Toyota, etc.
Then it is pointed out that GM and Ford have European subsidiaries that have often propped up the failing North American operations, so using the above logic, Europeans should not buy a Ford or a Vauxhall/Opel. All of sudden "where the money goes" doesn't matter.
Perhaps some should just admit that they can't stand the fact that the Japanese are building cars here - and apparently doing a better job of it, based on the sales and customer satisfaction numbers - and that what is really desired is time travel back to 1965, when virtually everyone drove a Big Four product.
Except that's not likely to happen soon.
P.S. I grew up on welfare, I know what its like, I found my way out with the help of the public school system in alabama. Opertunity is given, most arent willing to grasp it. The system did not fail to help them, they failed themselves by not accepting help or not trying.
EDIT: also if you are wondering why many states are having a rash of hospital closings its because theyare going bankrupt due to free care given to many illegal immigrents and the aformentioned welfare and medicare recipiants. It costs the actual tax payers a tremendous amount of money each time a cocane addict overdoses. Do you know what a trip to the ER costs? Dispite this I do think they disearve care. Just not more then what they have now.
I was turned down jobs because I couldn't afford to join the union, was also given all sorts of other lame [non-permissible content removed] excuses for not getting hired.
I have friends that came back from the gulf and Iraq that are losing everything, they are out of the military from injuries and can't get a job because no one wants to hire someone with medical problems.
as for the quality of domestic brand cars getting stuck in the middle of nowhere when you can barely walk is a great incentive to never buy that brand again.
I was born in 1937 so I have owned my share of American cars. But we started to go bad in the mid to late 50's. The quality just was not there by the late 60's. My first Asian car was a new 1983 Honda Accord hatch back. I have never owned a better car.
Let me try and define the word "Better" for you.
Low cost. Great gas millage. Almost no problems. After 100,000+ miles and 18 years of service. I paid $8,000 for it and sold it to a friend for $1,000 in 2001. It was worth $1,600. And $1,600 is what he got for it a couple of years later.
You can not do that with American cars.
We would much rather produce Suvs that cost from 30 to 50 thousand dollars plus, and get horrible gas mileage, and God only knows what resale value they will have in the future. My guess is that used Suvs will be selling for 25 cents on the dollar in the not to distant future due to high gas prices. And that will be for fairly new ones.
I pray to God I am wrong! We desperately need our auto industry. But, Why Oh Why, wont they get there heads out of the sand?
that is why most of the big 3 auto makers and the UAW build the garbage they do, the company will cut every corner they can using the cheapest crap they can get and the workers will do as little as they can get away with and still make their money with no concern or pride in their work.
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If I were to buy an American car today, it would probably be____________. It would be a good value for my dollar and most of it would be built and assembled in the states. I'm not looking for a new car today, so I haven't done my homework on the following cars, but these are the ones that interest me.
I like the Cadillac CTS and Saturn Aura (although I have yet to visit a dealership to check it out). I also like the Toyota Camry (built in KY). I was intereseted in the Buick Enclave, Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia until I learned that they'll be as big as the Tahoe/Yukon (just shorter in height).
I personally don't care for the style or size of the Chrysler 300. Ford has nothing that I would consider, but the Mustang and it's not what I need.
Look at the new upcoming models from the domestics.
I openly admit I've had frustrations with GM and their products in the past. I also am the type who is willing to give them a second chance in the near future. Mark LaNeve, is trying to make the GM, dealerships comply with customer service areas. I still think he has alot of work ahead of him to get them where they need to be.
IMHO, when it comes to buying cars and how it affects on the american economy nobody has the affect that GM does. Ford also is a close second. Alot of people think just because a car is "assembled" here in the united states it's an american car. One also should factor in the "content" also. Sure their are a few Japanese nameplates that are assembled here and also have a high domestic content, however the Big 3 on avg. across the board are way ahead in that department.
Just my $0.02
Rocky
You want gadgetology? Check this: the upcoming Acura MDX will have a GPS enabled automatic climate control system.
Now what, you may be wondering, would a GPS enabled climate control system do? Easy, using GPS the system knows which windows the sun is shining through and adjusts the HVAC accordingly.
When I read this in the latest C&D, I instantly thought of you rock.....
Yeah rorr, I already new about that feature.
I don't understand why Acura hasn't still installed ventilated seats yet !!! :surprise: I was just postive the new TL Type-S would have them. I was dead wrong pal !!!
I am now anticipating the new Caddy CTS. Will it have some new gadgets is the question I'm asking myself and want to ask GM. I honestly rorr, don't want to buy a 07' GMC Denali quite yet because what if the CTS, is close to perfect ? I don't want to risk the CTS, getting lottsa gadgets plus 500-600 horsepower with a stick on a "V" and then be stuck with a Denali Truck (which isn't a bad thing).... BUT !!!!.
I'd shoot my self in the foot !!!! :surprise:
What to do
Rocky
Buick had that in 98 and earlier!!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
Well, thats terrific imidazol97, but I rarely sit on the dashboard while I drive. And for that matter, I don't ever recall my wife sitting on the dashboard either. We usually use the seats.
Unless those wonderful dashboard sensors can tell when the sunlight is hitting the PASSENGERS rather than just the dashboard, I'm not sure just how your system is better? After all, on many occasions the dashboard my be in direct sunlight, yet the driver/passenger may be in the shade.
That's a disrespectful comment. I guess that's par.
The sensors are positioned so sun coming from the right hits the one on that side,... oh why try to explain, you'll just come back with another of your silly comments.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Okay, before we all go off the deep end, a couple of comments.
First, I was simply pointing out to our resident 'gadgetology' freak a new gadget he might not have been aware of. I should have known better; as usual, rocky was WELL up on all the latest doodads that might be hitting the market.
When I pointed out the new system in the Acura, I was NOT attempting a "hey, look at this as another example of where GM is screwing up and the imports are better". I was just attempting a bit of humor. Rocky apparently got it; you apparently didn't.
However, it seems that you took it that way with your instinctive, reflexive knee-jeck reaction post supporting GM by saying your GM car has always had two temperature sensors to determine temp on each side of the car. Well, that's just freaking great. Gee, I guess that NOBODY else ever thought to put twin temp sensors on the dashboard. Now WHAT IN THE HECK could Acura be thinking with this fancy-schmancy new GPS climate control system. (BTW - that last bit was sarcasm.)
Last point; rocky and I very rarely agree on anything (however, on this point, I'll bet rocky DOES agree
Disrespectful comment? I apologize if you took it that way. I was simply relaying to you, in my normal sarcastic manner, that PERHAPS Acura feels that temp sensors mounted on the dash DON'T always accurately reflect the temps perceived by the driver and passengers. PERHAPS Acura felt that the HVAC system would be more responsive to the driver/passenger if some means was devised to measure sunloads ON THE PASSENGERS.
Now, I have no idea how effective Acura's system is. Frankly, I don't care. I've always had a manual HVAC system and don't feel overly 'burdened' at the thought (oh horrors) of extending my finger over to the controls and manually adjusting fan speed/direction/temp. For me, simpler is better (insert joke here). However, for rockylee, I figured the Acura's GPS-enabled HVAC would be right up his alley. See, it doesn't MATTER how effective that system might be or not. Rocky likes it because it's COOL.
Silly comments? I'll try to spare those for you in the future.
Do you have a link to info about how the GPS info is utilized? How does position on the earth tell what the weather is at the time?
If there is no sun due to rain or overcast sky, how does it know not to adjust for the sun comiing in the right rear window and put extra cooling or less heat to the passenger side--unless it has local sun load sensors?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In my mind, Acura is always the gadget leader. However, where is the push button start/off? I am not that into gadgets like Rocky does but after getting used to the push button start/off and keyless operation I can't stand the cars without it anymore. I guess I am being spoiled by Lexus.
Well, it gets folks into the showrooms. I've no idea how effective it is.
I wonder why not just place a battery of IR sensors in the car which can read the temps directly off of the folks inside? Heck, the system could generate a temperature topographic map of every individual in the car and adjust temps/fan speed out of each individual register (or even automatically direct the register vanes to direct airflow directly to the warmer reasons and 'track' the passengers as they moved).
I mean for crying out loud, where does it stop? Jeez, if I feel hot, I reach a finger over and adjust the fan/temp.
Doodads sells cars. And there's nothing wrong with that; it gives the proud new owner something to crow about to the neighbor over the backyard fence. Personally, I don't give a rip. I want precise steering and brake feel, a responsive chassis, and a good stickshift and clutch setup. The rest of it is just sugar.
"Gadgetology: Marketing or real advance?"
Any takers?
I didn't get that gene, evidently, because I am in love with gadgets. The science behind them just fascinates me. Like "How do they do that"? My Lexus has the keyless entry/start. No, it's not too much trouble to push one button to get in, and insert and turn the key to start the car, nor is this the world's best convenience feature. But it's fun, and I get amazed at how smart they can make my car. For example, one thing I didn't expect my car to do, was save me when I had laid the keys on the seat of the car one day, and got out of the car without the keys. When I tried to lock the car, somehow it knew the keys were inside instead of outside, and refused to lock. And good thing too, if I had locked it, I'd have been screwed.
I don't long for more gadgets than I have - but when I discover one, I love it. So, yes, gadgets sell. And I'm always interested in yet, a better climate control system.
Ignore the GPS climate and look at some of the other "gadgets" that have appeared on even the simplest cars like Buicks for instance:
ABS
Airbags
Power windows/locks
And these are gadgets that get overlooked all the time because we are just so accustomed to having them as standard equipment. Heck I'd even go so far as to call a Low fuel or low oil light a "gadget" :shades:
Do you have a link to info about how the GPS info is utilized? How does position on the earth tell what the weather is at the time?
I honestly haven't went that far to find out how the system works in detail. I just know about the basic function of the system which I read on the internet somewhere. I think maybe the Acura website ? (don't remember where exactly)
If there is no sun due to rain or overcast sky, how does it know not to adjust for the sun comiing in the right rear window and put extra cooling or less heat to the passenger side--unless it has local sun load sensors?
You got me pal. :confuse: I'm sure Acura, has thought that one through.
Rocky
You mean like on Mazda 626s in the 80s? It was a very cool idea, in the 80s :P
I just wonder how the Acura adjusts for cloudy days? Does it call the noaa.com site up for where you are and determine the degree of overcast? Does it have a sensor on the car for overcast or night?
It will be an interesting read to see how they describe that it works.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If it has automatic headlights, I'd say the answer is 'yes'. That would be one way for the system to overide for overcast conditions (or within the shadow of tall buildings, etc.).
Or to put it another way, I keep getting the sensation that I am living, rather than reading, “The Rise and Fall of The Roman Empire.”
Sad. :sick: