Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

imidazol97

>I've had problems with the American cars starting between 35 and 60K miles. I've had no problems out of the Japanese cars out past 100K miles.

Do you think your different observations might be a result of _which_ cars you bought rather than generalized factors about all US cars and all Japanese cars?

kdhspyder

Until this past June 1st the CARB states prohibitted the sale of diesel vehicles except heavy trucks. This was due to the fact that in the US only 'dirty' diesel was available. Since June 1st 'clean' diesel is mandated but many existing diesels are not able to burn it yet.

since the CARB states make up the a huge segment of the market no major manufacturer is going to offer diesel in say MD and PA but not in NY, NJ and CA. Marketing-wise how do you promote the benefits of better fuel economy? Can you image a nationwide ad campaign on the NFL games promoting the benefits of diesel with the disclaimer - 'Oh but you buyers in the CARB states, take a hike you can't buy this vehicle since your state prohibits its sale'.

This will all change in 18 mos'.

lilengineerboy

It was my understanding that you couldn't get a diesel car in California for a couple years, only medium duty and bigger trucks. There are also 49 state versions of several cars (although I guess now its 46 state versions or something). In the past, even the Accord had a different model number in California than the rest of the country.
I don't think excluding some markets is a new thing. I think the Audi TT wasn't available in CA its first year because it didn't meet the CARB stuff.

lemko

http://www.amny.com/news/local/crime/am-nypd0815,0,5894750.story?coll=am-homepag- e-swapbox

andres3

Do you think your different observations might be a result of _which_ cars you bought rather than generalized factors about all US cars and all Japanese cars?

Actually, I think his description of lots of problems with domestic purchases, and NO problems with Japanese vehicle purchases, coincides with about almost everyone's personal history and experience.

I believe most people have the exact same experience, or at least hear the same from friends and family.

imidazol97

I don't hear of frequent major problems with GM cars that friends and family have bought. And I hear of a similar level of problems with friend's cars who buy foreigns brands. The guy across from us has had trouble with Acura transmission on his wife's car and with his Camry Lexus he has he has had minor problems. The fellow across the road next to him has three 3.5 RLs and accepts some repairs and some maintenance as the price of having nice cars.

I note that some people don't talk much about their problems with foreign brands until asked. People complain about their GM / Ford purchase a lot more willingly. It seems to be not wanting to admit they've had some problems, even though they usually aren't drastic problems.

As the JD data shows most cars are within a much narrower band of problem rates; the difference is not like it was 10 years ago.

m1miata

And contrary to your experience, I have had better luck with Japan makes, though my PT is pretty good so far, other than some oil consumption. If the engine holds true, the rest of the car seems fit. I would say the least trouble free Japan make I had was the Stealth/Mitsubishi, but it was not the worst. Worst title goes to GM. My family and friends seem to have had good experiences with Japan cars, like Toyota, Subaru, Honda, and such.

If you stop and think about it, wouldn't that explain Toyota and Honda being the number one brands in America for selling cars at a profit? And with minute debt compared to GM and Ford, which have dug a rather large hole to work out of. I do see some cars by both which show some promise. And the Solstice is a looker!

When talking FWD sedans, I think most people buying new are going to look first at Japan makes, then Korean makes. They have the goods, the price, the warranty, and reputation for durability and reliability in FWD cars. I personally may be shopping RWD though, so that would be Mustang, or Charger/300. OK, I guess CTS, if the price drops on used ones when the 2008 model hits the market. They seem overpriced to me right now. Shopping FWD, wow the choices are so plentiful. Maybe the Altima, or a Sonata makes sense? Used GTP G6 perhaps? In smaller cars, the Rabbit is a lot for the bucks, and made in Germany ( hopefully with less reliability issues ). When the Solstice Coupe comes out, it will be sold-out for months, if they price it under $20K. Heck, I would pay more, if it had a V6 -- better yet inline 6.
-Loren

kdhspyder

I have no doubt that the detroiters have made improvements in the recent past up til the present.

However to get me to go back after the problems I had on their vehicles in the 70's and 80's will be next to impossible. After having to replace two transmissions on Chryslers ( just out of warranty ), having a Olds 88 towed from my drive way over 5 times ( replaced as a lemon ), and an LHS that had to go back to the shop for refrigerant replacement 7 times during the first summer I had it I learned not to expect anything even from brand new domestic vehicles.

From 1995 to the present 7 Toyota's have cost me under $400 in total repairs over 400,000 miles ( strut caps ). Now add to this that nearly all Toyota's need very little in the way of maintenance the cost of ownership is going down with every generation; no timing belts; no plugs until over 100K; free oil and filters for life. My only costs are wear items, air filters and transmission care ( Prius every 60000 miles ).

mirth

...the president of Ford NA was recently talking about how the Japanese people and gov't root for the home team companies and throw their support behind them (both financial and moral), while we here in the US basically do the opposite - and he didn't know why. kdhspyder's post above is a good example of why a lot of people don't - they were burned in the past by a domestic car they owned and they are still pissed about it.

While it's best for the country that we have a strong domestic automotive manufacturing base (and no, import plants could not fill the gap), I'm sure there are many politcos in Washington that are like "why should I help GM/Ford/Chrysler - that Blahmobile they sold me back in '82 gave me nothing but trouble!" So Mr. Fields, this is what you are facing.

andres3

That's exactly the problem Ford/GM/Chrysler is facing. If they sold you a complete lemon they never offered to replace or give you your money back on.... the grudge will be held for life.

nortsr1

I think that would apply for any make or model. Foreign or Domestic.

marsha7

I know this sounds like a broken record, and both foreign and domestic brands have had their problems, but I just feel that GM/Ford are leaving the country because they are avoiding the UAW and all of its inherent silly work rules (I won't even go into the poor working attitude of the workers), whereas the foreign makes are setting up plants here, but MOST, not all, are avoiding unionized labor and are absolutely avoiding inefficient union work rules...that is one variable that cannot be ignored...

subarufan1

After finding out one of the most iconic images of American motoring (camaro) will be made in canada and not the United States, i will never buy gm. Things like these just highlight all the problems with American auto corporations.

fintail

You know, the previous Camaro was made in Canada too...

imidazol97

Were they all made in Canada? Or just after a certain year?

I recall the Firebirds were made in Norwood (Ohio). Were the Camaros made there also?

fintail

I think they moved to Canada for the 93 redesign. I know they were made in California back in the day, too.

subarufan1

yes i know, but i hoped the new camero would be made in the us

fintail

I don't see it as a problem. Lots of rah-rah Buy American people loved the old late F-body, even with its absence of ergonomics and kit-car build quality and materials, even with it being made in Canada...and a French speaking part of Canada no less!

I'd rather support Canadian labor than that of many other places.

subarufan1

I would prefer American cars to be produced in America as much as possible. Its not being "rah rah",just like keeping more Americans employed than not. That said, companies run on stastics and numbers and cheaper Canadian and Mexican labor will win over all else.

m1miata

That's OK, they are all made in North America :shades:

andres3

Of course a grudge would be held for any make or model that was a complete and utter POS/lemon/junker; foreign or domestic. The problem is most people have experiences like mine:
Dodge - needs to be towed once a year and 2,000 dollars a year in repairs to faulty parts to keep it running.
Honda - needs gas and regularly scheduled maintenance and nothing else.

I don't see too many people reporting grudges against Honda or Toyota.

lemko

Gee, that Honda you describe seems a lot like my Cadillacs and Buicks.

m1miata

I find that totally unfair of you to take the two cars GM made which run, and have kept those two all to yourself.
-loren

imidazol97

Don't be so quick to reach conclusions: I have two that are great cars. Great to drive, 33 mpg on big 3800 lb car going to my niece's house cross town and out to lunch at Bravo's. Smooth ride. Controlled. Transmissions don't go out or hesitate...

andres3

I find that totally unfair of you to take the two cars GM made which run, and have kept those two all to yourself.
-loren
That will go down as the funniest post in Edmunds' forums history! :P

lemko

...from this morning's Philly paper:

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/opinion/15347084.htm

anythngbutgm

That dude must've been a salesman. Anybody could write a similar piece no matter what side of the fence you ride on, foreign or domestic.

"When I look on the back of my Mercury, I see a decal that proudly proclaims it has been made by an American company and assembled by American workers in Atlanta."

As long as he isn't looking at a Milan...

"And I'm thinking that guy in the LeSabre may soon be replaced by someone younger driving a new Buick Lucerne."

Gotta be a salesman. And the only thing "Excellent" about the piece was if you lick the boots of domestic brands... or are employed by one.

lemko

...I could've written the same thing as the man in the editorial, only substitute "Mercuries" with "Buicks and Cadillacs." I'm not a car salesman, not are any family or friends associated with the auto industry.

anythngbutgm

I could have written the same thing and included anything From BMW to Kia. All have their strong points, that guy just chose to ignore them and wrap himself in the American flag to make his decision. I know you aren't a salesman Lemko, but I can understand why you are praising the article.

anythngbutgm

Wonder what he thinks of Chrysler? :confuse:

fintail

Horrible article...another branch of fashionable patriotism, maybe.

When talking about the GTO the author says "better looking than ever". Really, doesn't that say all we need to know about this guy? I wonder if, with badges removed, he could even tell an Accord from a Camry from an Impala.

imidazol97

I wonder if that last sentence was a slam or meant to be positive or was an excuse for having purchased the two foreign brands? Kind of humorous to me.

Kirstie_H

"The only two foreign cars I ever owned, a long time ago, were a Mazda and a Volvo. And they were both clunkers."

I really have to think he's stating the minority of pre-Ford ownership experience. I can't think of a single other person I've heard say that, "thankfully," Volvo is now owned by Ford :confuse:

rorr

"...a car can be a form of self-expression. It can show whether or not you care about American companies and American jobs......what's wrong with a new Pontiac GTO or a Ford Mustang?"

I'm now wondering if that mouth-breathing myrmidon is even AWARE that the Pontiac GTO was completely designed, developed, and built by non-Americans. Or if 100% of his 'knowledge' is based on what that chrome-plated hunk of plastic on the decklid says.

Do it say "Pontiac"? Yup, must be 'muricun. Do it say "Toyota"? Yup, must be 'furrin.

The author of that piece needs to be reminded that it is 2006, not 1976.

imidazol97

>Do it say "Pontiac"? Yup, must be 'muricun. Do it say "Toyota"? Yup, must be 'furrin.

If the article had been a biased article about how perfect foreign cars are and how we shoud punish American brands by only buying foreign, would you be making fun of the author's speech patterns like you are? I don't think so. :confuse:

graphicguy

Mods....I really didn't know where to put this, but I think it's such a compelling read, and deals so straightforward with U.S. car brands (as well as foreign), I'm putting it here....

http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant

motownusa

Another car salesman who couldn't make it in journalism school. Very poorly written article. He is not going to convince anyone to buy a domestic over an import.

motownusa

Great article. Although I don't always agree with the "Autoextremist", i think he hit the nail on this one. Carlos Ghosn is one trick pony who doesn't know anything besides cost cutting. I think his day at Renault-Nissan might be numbered. GM would be wise to stay away from any alliance with this clown calling all the shots.

Kirstie_H

That's fine, but you are always welcome to start a new discussion!

rorr

"would you be making fun of the author's speech patterns like you are? I don't think so."

You'd be correct. But you are correct for the wrong reason.

I made that allusion to speech patterns based on the RATIONALE used by that author. In that author's mind, it made ZERO difference where a car was actually designed, developed, or built. The ONLY thing that mattered (in the case of the GTO) was that it was a Pontiac. Period.

So, in essence, the ONLY thing that mattered was what it said on that hunk of plastic on the decklid. Now - if an individual uses similar 'rationale' for ONLY buying a "furrin" brand (as in "I'll only buy a Camry or Accord because I don't trust American workers to build a car well") THEN I might poke similar fun at their speech pattern. Why? NOT because of their opinion of American workers vs. foreign workers - that's their opinion and they're welcome to it. I'd make fun of their speech pattern because they would be CLUELESS about where their 'favorite' car was built.

The author of that 'excellent' article was clueless. He wants us all to support American workers, and then brings up the GTO to support his argument. Moronic.

midwesttrader

First time an Edmunds post has sent me to the dictionary;

myrmidon \MUR-muh-don; -duhn\, noun:
1. (Capitalized) A member of a warlike Thessalian people who followed Achilles on the expedition against Troy.
2. A loyal follower, especially one who executes orders without question, protest, or pity.

andre1969

Hey now, I have an '85 Chevy pickup. GM didn't make it run though, the local mechanic did! :P And he's working on my '76 LeMans right now to make it stop. :surprise:

rorr

"First time an Edmunds post has sent me to the dictionary;"

Well, I'm flattered that I broadened SOMEONE'S horizon today...

louiswei

And, to be honest, I've never been able to understand the appeal of Japanese and other foreign cars

Civic/Corolla vs. Cobalt
Accord/Camry vs. Taurus
TL/ES350 vs. MKZ
LS/S-class/7-series vs. DTS

I can go on but that's enough to shut him up...

andres3

I wouldn't buy another American vehicle because the first one caused enough stress and headaches to last and do me good for a lifetime!

Japanese cars are so worry and stress-free. You never have to worry about being stranded with a car that won't start or get you from point A to B. You never have to stress about paying a mechanic thousands of dollars to get your car running properly again. You don't have to waste your own time finding a tow truck company and driver to come pick up your junker/clunker.

anythngbutgm

Aren't you kind of a bit on the extreme side of things? Just seems a bit generalized to say ALL American vehicles are going to turn out like your first one. I would place money against that theory.

Seriously, I didn't think there were many extremists left in todays "Global" day and age. To each his own I guess. :shades:

andres3

Hahahha, maybe my first vehicle was on the bad end of bad american vehicles....... so in that sense, it was an EXTREMELY bad vehicle.

Now that either explains my extremism..... or it helps make your bet make sense, that the next one wouldn't be so bad.

I'm not a fool though, I won't be made a fool twice.

m1miata

Mustang has a German engine in the form of a V6, and a transmission from France in the V8. And why the Holden arrived as a Pontiac GTO is obvious, yet only served anger some of the loyal GTO car buffs, while doing nothing to intro a fine line of Aussie cars, with RWD drive. It became the poser.

Will agree that both the Mustang and GTO end profits go to Ford and GM, but really, does it matter. It is a World economy, and in total benefits in jobs and distribution of profits to all suppliers, and to the pocket books of the employed, a lot of others made a good profit along the way other than USA / GM / Ford on these cars.

And those in Europe buying an Opel then care about buying an American product, as it is owned by GM? I do believe they are buying the car they thinks fills their needs. The very next car they purchase may be a Toyota, or a VW.

The success and failure, as I see it, in the Mustang is that it shows a strong desire for many to by an American styled, RWD fun and good looking car. The failure is that they reached back and pieced together different era parts n' pieces in an effort to replicate a past success. Better, and I should say, far better is the day a truly new Pony is an even better success than the original. One step beyond a dream of a good selling retro car, is to pursue a car which is the next cut above. GM finally got back on track for styling excellence with the Solstice. Little follow through however with other models. Perhaps the futures yields some GM cars of the future. The GTO is fine Holden car, and could be imported as such. Let's not try to pull another fast one, as not enough buyers are that gullible to believe a GTO is made down under. There is nothing close in the Pontiac line up to really build a true GTO... yet.
-Loren

shadow99688

I have owned american vehicles from almost every maker Ford, Chrysler, Dodge, Pontiac, Chevy, Buick, International Harvester, Case, and John Deer.
Every american vehicle I have owned that was manufactured after around 1972 was junk with frequent breakdowns and other problems.

lemko

Civic/Corolla vs. Cobalt

Shoot, I'd take the Cobalt hands down, especially the coupe. The only thing I like about the Civic is the weird Jetsons instrument panel. The Corolla is the preferred conveyance of aging secretaries.

Accord/Camry vs. Taurus

Good God, you had to pick a discontinued car and the worst of the bunch to compare to the Camcord. I wouldn't let Osama Bin Laden drive a Taurus. However, there are plenty of other great choices - Impala, LaCrosse, Five Hundred, Fusion, Charger, etc.

TL/ES350 vs. MKZ

Another lopsided comparison. What is it you got against Ford? I would take a CTS or a 300C over the Camry Deluxe. The TL is a nice ride.

LS/S-class/7-series vs. DTS

Shoot, I'll take the DTS in a New York second over either the S-Class or the 7-Series. At least I could count on the DTS to get me to work and it won't cost as much as the moon to purchase, service, and repair. I almost got the Lexus LS430 when I last went car shopping but chose a Cadillac Seville STS instead. The Lexus had a nicer interior, but I didn't feel it was $5K nicer. The Cadillac also had a more powerful engine and sleeker styling. I knew I made the right decision when I saw a new LS parked next to my Seville at work. The Seville was sleek and sexy and the LS looked like something my Grandpop might drive.