By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I thought the V-6 Mustang used a 3.9. Isn't that just another version of that pushrod 3.8/4.2 V-6 that's known for blowing head gaskets around 90,000 miles?
If they're using French transmissions though, well since that's European and not American, proper grammar would now dictate that we call them "eccentric" or "temperamental", instead of "unreliabile" :shades:
I kinda like the new Civic, in a weird sort of way. I'd probably take it over the Cobalt. Main thing that kills the Cobalt for me is the fuel economy, which is the main reason I'd buy something this small. And the Corolla loses out with me for its bad driving position.
Accord/Camry vs. Taurus
I agree with Lemko here, that's not the best comparison in the world. I'd probably look at a Fusion or Milan. Or a Charger or Altima.
TL/ES350 vs. MKZ
I kinda like the TL, although it's a bit snug for my tastes. Used to hate the ES330, but I kinda like the new ES350. But not enough to get into this category of car. I'd still probably stick it out with a nicer version of an Altima, or Charger or 300.
LS/S-class/7-series vs. DTS
I'd probably just call it a day and get a Lucerne. Or the aforementioned Charger/300. Or a deeply discounted DTS.
Civic/Corolla vs. Cobalt: Cobalt's nice, decent job by GM, miles ahead of its prehistorical predecessor Cavalier. However, better quality interior materials used in Civic/Corolla wins my vote here.
Accord/Camry vs. Taurus: Agreed, not the best comparo in the world. GM did a decent job with the Impala as well as Ford's Fusion but still, they utilized too many hard plastics for interior. Benchmarks are still Camry and Accord. Don't think LaCrosse, 500 and Charger should fall under this category. Charger is RWD since all others are FWD. LaCrosse and 500 probably would compare better with the Avalon and Maxima.
TL/ES350 vs. MKZ: Again, these are FWDs, CTS or 300 should compare with their RWD import counterparts like BMW 3/Lexus IS/Infiniti G (I consider this comparo as a cheap shot so I wouldn't even go there). Forgot about the Lucerne. Very nice car, it is my third favorite domestic car right now (after Corvette and Mustang). Again, the domestics fall short on interior quality and overall refinement here.
LS/S-class/7-series vs. DTS: Probably the worst comparo of all. I was trying to think of a domestic luxury flagship sedan that's RWD but I couldn't (cuz there aren't any) so I just throw the DTS in there. Cheap shot, I know. I am looking forward for the next DTS and hopefully it'll be a RWD.
As you can see, I am very big on interiors. But that's just me, my picks won't be the same as your picks and that's perfectly fine. I am just glad we have so many options out there.
By the way, when I look at a car I rate the as such:
Interior > driving dynamics > exterior
Exterior > driving dynamics > interior.
Some cars have excellent interiors such as the VW Jetta but I wouldn't trust them to get me to the corner deli, let alone a daily commute. Some cars have a crappy interior like my girlfriend's Dad's 2003 Chevrolet Impala, but that car will probably still be running well 20 years from now.
I'm waiting for a RWD DTS as well. I want one for my next car. I love the exterior style of the car and the interior is much nicer than the previous design. In lieu of the DTS, a nice RWD Lucerne would be nice. I was kind of hoping Buick would adopt the RWD Zeta platform. There was a car called the Lausaunne (sp?. I don't know what became of it.
Rocky
I just find that a bit hard to believe..... :confuse:
With your knowledge of cars, I am very surprised that you do not know that, since 2005, the Mustang uses the same 4.0L SOHC V6 as the Explorer.
Accord, Camry & Taurus - If it's an '07 Camry, count me in - I really like 'em. The Accord's quite nice, but a bit dull. And the Taurus has been cheapened so much, I wouldn't consider buying one new (and I must admit, I don't mind Tauruses). Maybe a fully-loaded SEL Wagon with a few grand off the sticker. Or did they cancel them a year or so ago?
TL, ES350 & MKZ - The MKZ is nice, and I'm no Lincoln fan. And the interior is certainly a big plus in my book. I'd take it over a cushy, mushy Lexus ES. Again, it's one of those Toyotas I really despise (although Toyota's do seem to be getting more interesting lately). When you're plonking down $35k on a car, you want a little bit more than a soft ride and a soft interior (I don't even like the ES's goofy egg interior). Gimme a TL, at least they're a little bit sporty, and just as reliable. I'd prefer something with RWD though.
LS, S-Class, 7-Series & DTS - I don't consider the DTS to be in the same ballpark as the other three, so it's damned hard to compare. But I doubt I'd get a DTS anyway, seeing as they're a bit overpriced, FWD, and nothing more special than the Lucerne platform mate. And I love Cadillacs so that's saying something.
The domestics do put out some nice cars, in my opinion - Lucerne, CTS, Escalade, STS, XLR, Corvette, Impala, Tahoe/Yukon, 300, Pacifica, Charger, Magnum, Escape/Mariner Hybrid, Explorer/Mountaineer, Fusion, Mustang, Grand Cherokee SRT-8, MKZ, G6, Grand Prix GXP, GTO, Solstice, Aura and Sky. *takes breath* And a lot of their other cars could be made more desirable, with a few tweaks (eg a better engine in the Torrent, a decent interior in the Malibu Maxx)
I could care less how a car looks as long as parts don't fall off and NOTHING breaks on it.
the best looking car in the world isn't worth crap if is is in a shop getting fixed all the time.
I have been left stuck miles from the nearest phone by american vehicles that broke down in the middle of nowhere at -40 and in the middle of a desert.
My friend with a G6 can't go to work or get home if there has been heavy snow unless someone breaks trail on the road for him, I did that for him with my KIA coming home then used my Toyota to clear the road the rest of the way.
1. Passenger side glove compartment door
2. Area that's below the steering wheel
3. Lower half on all door panels
I can live with number 2 but number 1 and 3 are just unacceptable. Even my old 97 Honda Accord has soft fake leather on area 1 and 3.
So I'd say the Fusion competes nicely on soft interior pastics.
Or maybe Rocky was looking at a site that said the GTO had 65% AUS content and it was misread as "US" content? :confuse:
Shoot, I'd take the Cobalt hands down, especially the coupe. The only thing I like about the Civic is the weird Jetsons instrument panel. The Corolla is the preferred conveyance of aging secretaries.
What is not to like about 40 MPG on the highway on the new Civic??? How can you not like that kind of mileage and economy? How about stellar reliability and dependability records, with sensational build quality?
oops, brain fart time!
Go check one out for yourself rorr, if your calling me a liar. I think your brain is beginning the first stages of severe dehydration since it knows the liquids you will be sending me will refresh mine. :P
No seriously though rorr, I want you to check it out to see just how right I am once again. Then maybe next time you won't be doubting me and rehydrating my already refreshed and proper working brain.
Rocky
waitaminute....you said that 65% of the GTO content was AMERICAN. The sticker simply labels % of DOMESTIC content (which could be Canadian as you know). I know, a minor quibble.....
Something else occurs to me; if 65% of the GTO content is domestic, and that content consists essentially of the drivetrain and wiring, then with an factory invoice for the car at around $29k, then value of the powertrain and wiring would be running close to $19k.
Yikes! I had no idea that the LS2 based powertrain was that expensive. And you STILL think it will be the 'base' V8 motor for the upcoming Camaro? A car whose sales DIED and was axed precisely BECAUSE of it's high cost and high insurance rates compared to the Mustang?
Wow. You truely DO think that GM management is dumber than a box of rocks if they make that same mistake again.....
Rocky
rocky, when I was talking about a car's failure, I was talking about the CAMARO (as in the last generation F-body), a car that failed in the market place because of high cost and high insurance. And simply pointing out that making the LS2 the 'base' V8 engine for the new Camaro does nothing to solve that problem.
Well anyways like I said under the GM forum, it appears the new GMC Sierra Denali will be good enough for me to own. I'm actually am getting pretty excited about the idea of owning a luxurious 400 hp. Crew Cab Truck. I can then sell my Dodge Flat-bed if I'd like. My neighbors 16 yr. old son wants to buy it. I told him $5K and it's his.
I do want the hybrid Sierra Denali though. I also am going to have to look at chips and programmers for it. I want to tune it up to around 500-600 hp and turn up the govoner, just in case I ever need to rocket to some place or can get it on a track.
Rocky
Okay - I'll play along.
Yes, the GTO was killed by styling. IMO, it looked too much like a Cavalier with a widebody kit. NOT what most people associated with the initials "GTO". But that's just my .02.
Second, yes a V6 Camaro should sell great (just as a V6 Mustang sells great). But WHY would a V6 Mustang and V6 Camaro sell well? All (or most) of the style coupled with decent performance and a great price.
Third, no I don't agree that a V6 GTO would have been a winner. The ONLY reason to buy the GTO was due to it's powertrain. Take away the big honkin' V8 and you're left with a rather bland looking corporate GM coupe with next to NOTHING to differentiate itself from the 2-door Grand Prix. And further ENRAGING the GTO purists with the abomination that would be a V6 powered GTO. Ford got a taste of that wrath with the plans to turn the Mustang into a FWD 'sporty' car. The kept the Mustang and brought out the Probe instead.
The selling point for the Holden based GTO was big power and big grins; not style. Lose the big power, lose the incentive to buy. IOW - the GTO NEEDED the LS2.
Fourth, the retro-themed Camaro DOES HAVE style (love it or hate it, the Camaro at least HAS some style). That is a huge selling point in its favor. But to be a sales SUCCESS (and a GM success) it has to sell in numbers (be affordable to the buyer) AND be profitable for GM (they must be able to make a fair amount of profit per unit).
IOW - the Camaro doesn't NEED huge power to sell; it needs style (which it has) and a reasonable price (which would be more difficult with an LS2 than the LS4).
Something else to consider; GM also needs a way to spur sales 3-4 years into the model run. The best way to do this in the pony car market is to introduce hotter powertrains and/or misc. body doodads (scoopes/flares/new rims). Ford does this successfully with the Mustang. What better way for GM to do the same than introduce a Camaro SS 2-3 years after the Z28....and THEN offer the LS2?
We will get to see very soon how this plays out. :shades:
Rocky
So? The Shelby (if you're talking about the GT500) is a $45+ car. Do you really want a $45+ Camaro SS?
How many base Corvettes get sold if GM starts dropping LS-7 motors into Camaros for the same price?
"Of course this is speculation on me, but based on what I'm seeing from GM, this looks to be correct" :shades:
Rocky
Huh?
A 500 hp LS-7 Camaro for upper $30s???? I think you've gone completely starkers.....
rocky, there is a vast difference between rational analysis and wishful thinking, and I think you're indulging yourself a BIT too much with the latter......
I rest my case, and BTW- I'm looking forward to put those liquids you'll be sending me on ice.
Rocky
they could easy cut labor costs in 1/2 by dumping non productive and sloppy workers.
Rocky
I've worked several places both union and non-union pal. It amazes me how people will argue this into the ground, and your typical non-union plant, isn't paying the wages that Toyota does.
The only reason why the trans-plants pay the wages they do is to keep the unions out. If unions didn't exist I guarantee you that Toyota, wouldn't pay the good wages they do just out of the kindness of their heart.
Neways, back to your regular scheduled programming.
Rocky
I like the concept of a Camaro on the market again, however, it is in a somewhat odd (meaning not extremely high sales) bracket now. What are the primary competitors in this market? I see the Ford Mustang GT, Nissan 350Z and on the outer edge maybe buyers of the Infiniti G35 or Honda S2000 would consider one. If done well it might be a good move for GM, but if I were a GM executive I would want to emphasize regaining market share from Honda, Hyundai and Toyota. This means that the primary emphasis would be taking on the Camry, Accord, Civic, Elantra and Corolla through better fuel economy and decent expected reliability and style.
Rocky
Rocky
In non union they can just fire them if they don't pull their own weight, I know people that work union they just do enough to meet contract, no more and can't get fired because they do a half-assed job, he makes more in 2 days than most people make working 5 days a week.
When UAW had the last big strike with GM they brought up many issues of union people getting paid and GM not able to fire them for substandard work because of Union contracts, this costs the company money that is added to the production expense of the vehicle, dump the union contracts, dump non productive workers and the production costs could drop to what the US toyota plant has.
And that says alot about the people in that area that they can't find and hire good people.
I've been at jobs where the boss fired someone the first hour of work, hell I have even fired people when they showed up not prepared for work.
Well shadow, why are their many UAW, plants out producing those Toyota plants ???
Rocky
As for UAW out producing others, take a close look at the quality of what they make,then look at numbers of vehicles that need rework before they even leave the plant.
I had a NEW Dodge shelby charger and it had to be fixed before I could drive it home, a new chevy s-10 that needed to be fixed within the first month, a new ford tempo that needed to be fixed within the first week.
the ford also went through 5 sets of michelin tires in the first 6 months.
I also remember when escorts where eating engines because the heads where torqued wrong at the factory.
I've had non union jobs that paid 5k to 8k per week and I worked for every penny of it and watched union people just loaf around and then [non-permissible content removed] because I made more than they did.
On another note, it seems to me that the US workforce is going through a scene in the movies "Trading Places". In that movie, two wealthy stockbrokers wagered a one dollar bet that they could take a homeless man and a successful college graduate and successfully swap their lives. I believe the same one dollar bet has been wagered at the national level. The two sides now are 1. it is the US worker that dictates the thriving economy and corporate success 2. the worker is irrelevant and can come from a third world, it is the few people with corporate vision that dictate the thriving economy and corporate success. It appears that the person who took position 2 is currently in the lead.
Huh? I recall seeing data (I'll have to dig it up now) indicating that the typical Toyota required FEWER manhours to build compared to the typical 'domestic' (ie. UAW).
By what measure are you using to state the UAW plants are outproducing the Toyota plants?
I hope corporate coward jobs get sent offshore too...I bet a Chinese or Indian suit would work for 1/10th the price of a domestic suit.