To me it means nothing more than promoting bad business practices while compromising one’s own lifestyle. In the world of business, neither a company nor the consumer exist to be the sacrificial lamb. Neither is out there doing social service. If some want to, more power to them.
If you care about our economy you will search out the ones with US made content.
If you must choose to be the sacrificial goat that these flag waving companies would love to have, then don’t stop with only the biggest purchases. Make sure your philosophy is reflected in every purchase that you make, from home as a whole to the nail that is stuck in that wall to the paper clips on your desk. Don’t buy fuel unless you’re sure 100% of your money is going into American economy, or else your philosophy would simply be a matter of convenience.
I've grown tired of anything "wood". Virtually every car from economy to ultra luxury throws it in (faux or real). I am now a proponent of "industrial look", like the mix of aluminum and carbon fiber mix as in my TL and the new BMW M3 has a touch of that too.
Oh yeah, forgot about that one... I liked the convertible version of it, I believe it had a ton in common with the 240SX...
The new M45 is definitely a smokin car, I prefer it over any Lexus myself. But I actually have a fondness of this one
There is just something rebelious about it, it just screams "I don't care if I'm ugly, the best looking feature is the rear which is all you'll see!" All attitude. :shades:
The CD slot looks like it was an afterthought... Either that or don't plan on putting a CD in while parked! Other than that, Infiniti stepped it up when it came to interiors... Those seats are super comfy.
Back a few months, there was a black vert. in great condition near my house for sale. They wanted 2500 bucks for it, and I almost jumped on it as a second toy for the wife to drive.
Just did a search and came up with a couple of them...
That picture is deceiving. The slot is actually a little above the gear shift and there is a more distance between the dash and the shifter then that picture shows.
Nope, they were RWD. These days, they're mainly cheap VLSD sources for 240SXs, and the occasional V6 turbo or V8 swap (which were both available in Japan).
Strangely enough, I did try a Lincoln Town Car and found it to be not much better than a 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS I once owned. I'm not too keen on the Lincoln LS styling. The back end is heavy-handed and the front end kind of reminds me of a contemporary Mitsubishi.
I figured with the Lexus LS430 at the time one gets nearly Mercedes S-Class styling without the hassles of owning a tempermental German car.
The two Chevy 3/4 ton were built in Canada and the Suburban in Mexico. All American made I might add.
Seems like two were made by Canadians and one by Mexican labor. Is the Mexican labor unionized?
Still not clear why vehicles assembled/built by union workers are superior to non-union labor. Do union people get more or better training by GM? Or, does the union leadership provide additional training to its members that directly translates into better skills/knowledge/techniques when building vehicles.
They have employed more and more temporaries in factory jobs that should be permanent jobs.
Why? Is there any law on books, federal or state, that requires permanent jobs? Or, that requires a company to guarantee employment full-time until retirement?
Think about some jobs in US economy that have some proportion that have always been temporary such as construction, electricians, carpenters, drywallers, landscaping, etc.
The model of the middle of the last century whereby you start working for a company after high school (or less) and are "guaranteed" full-time employment by that company until age 65 (with a gold watch) is dead. Both blue-collar and white collar workers starting out in early 20's have to have mindset that they will have many, many jobs/employers over their working life.
"Strangely enough, I did try a Lincoln Town Car and found it to be not much better than a 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS I once owned."
I'll agree with that one. One of the few advantages when we owned the notorious Windstall was that every time we brought it in for anything they gave us a loaner. At one point we had the Grand Marquis and a Town Car in fairly rapid succession. The Town Car was more gussied up but not really a better car.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Surprisingly enough Mexico has strong labor laws. I do not know the particulars on auto workers. I know in the restaurant business the waiters are very well protected.
Still not clear why vehicles assembled/built by union workers are superior to non-union labor.
I do not believe that I said they were superior. In theory Union workers should be happier & more productive. My buying Union made is a personal preference in so much as I get a very nice retirement from my 37 years in the Union. Sadly you are correct. There is little company loyalty toward workers and that translates into little loyalty toward the employer.
Your statement about part time workers, shows your mindset on business in this country. Part time may have its place. Many companies abuse it to avoid paying benefits to full time employee. This Congress that touts being for the working man should address that issue. It is much more important than raising the minimum wage. No one around here will get out of bed for minimum wage.
>Is there any law on books, federal or state, that requires permanent jobs?
There should be a law limiting teasing workers with part time positions forever and ever so the company doesn't have to give benefits and in most cases give them the option for pay increases after the starting period when they're full time workers.
Maybe you can check on the description of the employment at the Georgetown Toyo plant they gave to the state and local authorities when requesting tax breaks et al for building their plant. Did they propose a higher and higher rate of part time employment or did they promise XXXX full time, well-paying jobs? Which do you think?
They don't have rain and snow and winter cold inside the auto plant so I doubt the variability affecting full time employment as e.g. a landscaper is germane to this discussion.
I might add that construction work pays more historically as an incentive. If you are a Union construction worker you have healthcare and a good retirement. If you are not you should consider joining the Union. They have them for all the trades.
Maybe you can check on the description of the employment at the Georgetown Toyo plant they gave to the state and local authorities when requesting tax breaks et al for building their plant. Did they propose a higher and higher rate of part time employment or did they promise XXXX full time, well-paying jobs? Which do you think?
So, which is worse? Toyota keeping 425 temp workers at Georgetown, or Delphi hiring 2000 temps to fill the role of thousands that were laid off? That said, if I were a temp, and frustrated with my employer, won't it be a good idea to just move on? There are no strings attached! And why don't we talk about these "American" companies (Manpower Inc in that article) that bring those temps to their employers (foreign or domestic)?
Its not about what we think, it should be about what we know. If you have details and data (not assumptions) to compare business models, then we have something to talk about. Until then.
Surprisingly enough Mexico has strong labor laws. I do not know the particulars on auto workers. I know in the restaurant business the waiters are very well protected.
Are you suggesting that a Mexican built product is just as good as domestic? Do you consider a 100% Mexican or Canadian product to be "American"? Or, are we talking "Made in the USA"?
The thread is about buying American. And yes I would rather help my neighbor in Mexico than someone 1000s of miles from me if it is either or. I think we have sent enough to the Asian countries. A little dribbled to Mexico and Canada is fine with me.
The one with the cheaper price and the longer warranty. If other factors are the same, I don't care where they were made. Should I? (I've had a Japanese built Toyota that ran great and I currently have a Ohio Ford built Nissan that's been great for 118k).
I've been to the city of Toluca a few times where some of the auto factories are, and I've seen Mexicans load Beetles onto the ship at Veracruz. The people in these places seem to know what they are doing just like other spots I've visited. I've spent time in Canton too and I might be a bit dubious about a MS built Nissan at the moment. Seems like that factory has taken too long to get up to speed. But all in all, most brands available to us in NA are pretty reliable these days. Even Land Rover has gotten better.
So, which is worse? Toyota keeping 425 temp workers at Georgetown, or Delphi hiring 2000 temps to fill the role of thousands that were laid off?
You seem confused on several issues. First the employees from Delphi were offered an early out package. It was voluntary. I took the same thing from our company. If as you keep saying they hired 2000 temps that is not the same as part time employees. Are those temps covered by a Union contract that specifies how long they can be dragged along until becoming permanent?
You are doing just what you are accusing others of doing. You make statements without links to back up your statements. The reason for Temp companies is to find prospective workers. It is good business to hire from a pool of workers. A smartly managed company will watch that temp employee and bring them on full time if they are what is needed. I would not say these companies are all run completely above board. That is the reason you have an advocate in the form of a Union. Not all big companies are anti Union. When I worked for RCA Global Communications, they invited the Teamsters Union in. That is how I became a Union member, and very thankful for it.
The real question is what percentage of each was built in America? If they hauled a box of parts from Japan to assemble the Camry, I hardly consider that made in America. Same for the Ford. I know a few here would like to say buying a $500 TV is the same as a $25,000 vehicle. BIG difference in money flowing out of the country.
I talked to some people in Mesa Verde with a rental Fusion. They liked it so well they were considering buying one.
Japan's Honda Motor Co. builds its Accord car and its engine in Ohio. The U.S. government lists the car's domestic parts content at 70 percent.
Ford Motor Co.'s Fusion car is built in Mexico, using a transmission from Japan and an engine from Ohio. The government lists the Fusion's domestic content at 30 percent.
Foreign-based manufacturers like Toyota can identify models like the Camry as ``domestic" cars because they meet the government yardstick of having 75 percent or more of their parts made in the United States or Canada.
So the Camry has 75% domestic content and is built in the good ole' US of A. Fusion has 30% domestic content and built in Mexico. Which one would you choose?
It's my understanding that GM (and Ford) uses a fair number of contract workers for both white-collar and blue-collar positions.
When cuts need to be made, they are the first to go - without any of the benefits enjoyed by either UAW members or regular white-collar workers. GM isn't necessarily trying to find permanent workers by using these contract (which, let's face it, are really temporary) workers - it wants more flexibility in sizing its workforce.
As for companies being anti-union - GM tolerates the union because it has no choice, much like one of us might tolerate an obnoxious relative. It didn't invite the UAW to represent blue-collar workers. Workers won that right after the bitter sitdown strikes at GM in the mid-1930s. The union only won because Michigan's governor refused to send in the state police to forcibly clear out the plants (which is what GM management wanted him to do).
This was child's play compared to what Ford, under the leadership of Henry Ford and Harry Bennett, did to fight the UAW. As photos of the Battle of the Overpass show, it was literally a fight between UAW organizers and Bennett's goon squad.
Given GM's increased reliance on products produced in plants located in Mexico and Korea, and the recent closure of several GM plants in the U.S., I think it can be safely said that GM is attempting to slowly shift as much production away from the UAW as is politically possible.
Look at Delphi. GM spun it off, and included a provision that it would only be responsible for UAW member pensions and benefits until 2009, if I recall correctly. This backfired when Delphi went into bankrutpcy earlier than GM obviously expected. GM did NOT intend to be on the hook for UAW member benefits and pay forever. It just gambled and lost when it guessed how long Delphi could last on its own.
So the Camry has 75% domestic content and is built in the good ole' US of A. Fusion has 30% domestic content and built in Mexico. Which one would you choose?
If you notice gagrice's earlier post (response to me), you would see favoritism based on distance from the USA. So, "made in the USA" no longer applies. It is about not buying anything that is branded Japanese regardless of how much domestic content the vehicle has or where it is made (not sure if he would include anything European as well).
A little dribbled to Mexico and Canada is fine with me.
I thought you were all about "USA" and its economy? How about Cuba? Germany? England? Italy? France? What criteria do you use to pick and choose to help with your money? Is it distance from where you live?
BIG difference in money flowing out of the country.
And you're perfectly fine with that happening to Mexico or Canada. :surprise:
>If you have details and data (not assumptions) to compare business models, then we have something to talk about. Until then.
I'll leave it to you to supply details and data rather than your assumptions. It's obvious you have more experience with the work world.
>Delphi hiring 2000 temps
Those Delphi workers won't be strung on year-to-year. They'll have opportunity to become permanent if their job persists. Some of those are truly for temporary positions at Delphi, which is a Toyo supplier I assume. Rockylee had posted some about the temporary filler staff at Delphi. Maybe he'll chime in if he's on here.
>frustrated with my employer, won't it be a good idea to just move on?
The plants were built and planned in right-to-work states and in areas of low employment so the workers would be pressured into staying with what are well-paying full time jobs; if they're temps they probably can't go down the street to the next village to Georgetown and get-a-job. Perhaps Lexington offers some more employement. The new plants also were very careful not to employ auto workers from other areas even if they were ready to move there.
I'll leave it to you to supply details and data rather than your assumptions
Hang on. I'm not the one arguing on assumptions. I'm asking you to back up your claims.
Those Delphi workers won't be strung on year-to-year.
Says who? Besides, temp workers should be able to leave anytime they desire, right?
The plants were built and planned in right-to-work states and in areas of low employment so the workers would be pressured into staying with what are well-paying full time jobs
Name a company you have in mind that has only full time jobs. Besides, you seem to know about these contracts companies have with the states. Could you provide more details on it, specifically on Toyota-Kentucky deal for Georgetown.
My nephew works for Nucor - they recycle washing machines into car sheetmetal. My niece's hubby (nephew in law?) works at one of those foundries that some Harvard hedge fund boys bought out. That outfit makes brake drums and rotors.
So far that's true. What I don't know is whether Nucor is making sheetmetal for Mexican VWs or if the foundry is sending brake drums to Canada. Let's assume the foundry only sells to Detroit (their traditional customer) and Nucor ships only to Mexico.
Which family member do I pick to support with my next car purchase?
The real question is what percentage of each was built in America? If they hauled a box of parts from Japan to assemble the Camry, I hardly consider that made in America. Same for the Ford. I know a few here would like to say buying a $500 TV is the same as a $25,000 vehicle. BIG difference in money flowing out of the country.
By law you ( they ) can't do that. If the sticker says 90% NA content then 90% of the parts were made here. Steel, aluminum, glass, seating, tires, gaskets, fasteners, rods, engines, stampings, etc etc etc.
Does that matter? For the part to count as "domestic," it must be built here in the U.S., whether by a "captive" supplier or by a supplier with a U.S.-based headquarters.
Either way, Americans are employed to produce those parts. That is what matters.
It's good that "alien" companies set up shop here. Shows that the U.S. is still a good place to manufacture both parts and the final product.
If you notice gagrice's earlier post (response to me), you would see favoritism based on distance from the USA. So, "made in the USA" no longer applies. It is about not buying anything that is branded Japanese regardless of how much domestic content the vehicle has or where it is made (not sure if he would include anything European as well).
You can misrepresent all you like. I said I would take the Fusion on looks. It would be the content that would be important also. And yes I would rather send jobs to Mexico and Canada, than Japan, China, India or where ever. North America is more important to me than the rest. I think you are aware of why we should be propping up the job market in Mexico. If not you need to read the papers. Living in TX it should be obvious. I consider Canada and Mexico better allies than most of the rest of the world. Many countries would love to see us collapse, except for the huge amounts of money that flow in from the USA.
You seem to act like you have to get my approval for where you spend your money on a vehicle. Your twisting of the facts has in no way deterred my feelings on trying to keep the US economy in good shape. If I cannot find an American made vehicle I like so be it. It will not be because I am anti-Domestic as you seem to be.
Was that Camry one made in the USA or one made in Japan? I think that Toyota has about a 50% US manufactured vehicles.
Does that matter? For the part to count as "domestic," it must be built here in the U.S., whether by a "captive" supplier or by a supplier with a U.S.-based headquarters.
Add to the fact the added complexity in determining "domestic content" which can come from pre-assembled units supplied to automakers. Let us assume I employ fifty people in Texas to assemble an IC board in which every component is imported.
These assembled boards are now provided to, say, GM's facility in Ft Worth from a "domestic vendor". Would these guys count that board as an import or domestic? How would this piece show up on the sticker showing "domestic content".
US Steel, Armco, Alcoa, Michelin, Goodyear, Lear, Delphi? I don't know where they're based.
The engines are captive in that they're smelted and forged in Missouri by Bodine Aluminum and finished in WV and Ala by a Toyota plant then shipped to the assembly plant.
Aisin in N Carolina provides a lot of the trannies and electronics.
It is rather amusing you would say that I'm looking for approval to make my purchases. But the fact is, I'm not the one complaining. I go out an buy the product which offers me the best value and satisfaction. I didn't buy a Honda lawn mower, regardless of where it is built. I'm perfectly fine with Craftsman. I hope it stands the test of time like people say Hondas do. If I have bad experience, I won't be seeking your approval, I will just go out and buy what I might have missed the first time around. And life goes on.
Was that Camry one made in the USA or one made in Japan? Not sure what the question is about, but when I bought my Accord, it didn't matter where it was built. At the time (1998 model), Honda had the capacity to build 340K Accords in Ohio, and the difference (about 60K more) would have to come from somewhere else. Back then it was from Japan. Recently I have heard, the supply is from Mexico (do I see a happier you?).
IMO, it is ridiculous to favor Mexico over Japan. That only shows a personal bias since it clearly doesn't tell me much about your preference for "Made in the USA". Now that definition has extended beyond USA likely to justify production of domestically branded things in USA. Perhaps you value Ford investing $9B in Mexico more than you do Toyota investing $2.4B in the USA. Don't you?
Helping Mexico rid of unemployment is somehow better than Toyota opening a facility in Kentucky. Did I get that right?
Did they move Kentucky to Japan while I was asleep? I gave my list of priorities for the countries of origin I prefer to do business. The reason Japan builds cars in the USA is to avoid conflict over their restrictive trade policies. I am not a big fan of NAFTA, however we get a better deal from Mexico than we do Japan. I really am not a Ford or Toyota fan. So the chances of me buying either is slim to none. I will more than likely buy an ML320 CDI built in South America. That is Alabama to you. Don't ask what the content is I have no idea. I just know my choices are slim and that is the only thing on the road today in the USA that appeals to me, even a little bit.
Did they move Kentucky to Japan while I was asleep?
They might as well, as you wouldn't notice it. :P
The reason they build locally is to take advantage of costs of importing vehicles. The idea is no different from what any business is supposed to do... earn $$$. But in the process of disapproving their move, you couldn't less about positive impact they are having on US economy. But, you would rather support foreign plants owned by domestic brands (i.e. imports) than domestic facilities owned by foreign brands.
In other words, you care more about those 6% flowing into the USA, than the 94% that is going out to those workers in Brazil, and Ford's accountants in India. But thats your choice! Learn to live with it. You should not expect everybody else to follow those reasons that I think are nothing but poor excuses to make ones life miserable.
Perhaps you might like the idea of putting a banner (and sitting under it) in front of Toyota's manufacturing facility suggesting... "boycott products from this factory, America is better served by products we import from Mexico and Brazil".
Do you just like to throw out different countries to confuse the issue? I have said at least three times on this thread that buying from a MAKER any MAKER that builds their vehicles here is preferable to buying vehicles from outside the USA. You are the one that keeps trying to twist what others say to salve your feelings of guilt for not wanting to support your fellow Americans. If you feel stronger ties to Japan than the USA, Canada or Mexico. Why not move there.
I believe, if at all possible in supporting my neighborhood, then city, then county, then state, then country, then my neighboring countries. I don't believe I can make it any clearer than that. And if at all possible I will buy UNION Made in USA products.
If my Dell laptop was made in China and uses tech support from India. Let me know who in the USA makes a competitive product, I will check it out.
If you feel stronger ties to Japan than the USA, Canada or Mexico. Why not move there.
Ok, now we're coming down to exchanging advice. Its not about my ties to Japan, it seems to be your hatred for some countries. But it seems you would be just as much home in Mexico or Canada as you are in the USA. Right? Thats the criteria you use, not me. The world is mine.
So, why would you be perfectly happy to buy ML320 (a German vehicle) that is made in South America? I'm confused.
If my Dell laptop was made in China and uses tech support from India. Let me know who in the USA makes a competitive product, I will check it out.
HP. They make those in Taiwan (at least mine is). :shades:
>If my Dell laptop was made in China and uses tech support from India. Let me know who in the USA makes a competitive product,
"Systemax™ is the Great American PC Maker.
Ask your current PC Vendor 3 questions: 1. Are 100% of their systems assembled in the USA by US workers? 2. Are 100% of their tech support calls and emails answered in the USA by US workers? 3. Do they have a company policy to NEVER export American jobs?
If they can't answer YES to all 3 questions, then come ask Systemax™. We say "Yes" to the American worker. We are the largest, most reliable PC manufacturer in the country that can make these claims. We've been assembling and supporting the highest quality PCs with the latest technology in Fletcher, Ohio for over 20 years."
I've bought two Systemax computers from them. Three year complete warranty. English-speaking representatives mostly with midwest accents at the Fletcher location for Systemax and for Global Gov/ed purchasing. Tigerdirect.com and global.com all offer the same built to suit Systemax computers
I had Dells from work and found them next to impossible both on language and service of their minimal quality, lowest bid parts.
Comments
To me it means nothing more than promoting bad business practices while compromising one’s own lifestyle. In the world of business, neither a company nor the consumer exist to be the sacrificial lamb. Neither is out there doing social service. If some want to, more power to them.
If you care about our economy you will search out the ones with US made content.
If you must choose to be the sacrificial goat that these flag waving companies would love to have, then don’t stop with only the biggest purchases. Make sure your philosophy is reflected in every purchase that you make, from home as a whole to the nail that is stuck in that wall to the paper clips on your desk. Don’t buy fuel unless you’re sure 100% of your money is going into American economy, or else your philosophy would simply be a matter of convenience.
The new M45 is definitely a smokin car, I prefer it over any Lexus myself. But I actually have a fondness of this one
There is just something rebelious about it, it just screams "I don't care if I'm ugly, the best looking feature is the rear which is all you'll see!" All attitude. :shades:
Edit: Oops, British_rover's is a Fuga; anythingbutgm's is a Cedric.
Naah, the M30/Leopard was more late-80s 300ZX. The J30/Leopard is more '90s 300ZX, but some parts can be used on the 240SX.
I would dearly love finding an old M30 convertible in nice shape.
Just did a search and came up with a couple of them...
link title
I've got a bad case of convertible itch but since I still need the van it would be a third car I may fight it off...
I actually ran the search for my own purpose as well. I forgot all about the M30 and since it's come up, I may just pursue one again...
I figured with the Lexus LS430 at the time one gets nearly Mercedes S-Class styling without the hassles of owning a tempermental German car.
All American made I might add.
Seems like two were made by Canadians and one by Mexican labor. Is the Mexican labor unionized?
Still not clear why vehicles assembled/built by union workers are superior to non-union labor. Do union people get more or better training by GM? Or, does the union leadership provide additional training to its members that directly translates into better skills/knowledge/techniques when building vehicles.
Why? Is there any law on books, federal or state, that requires permanent jobs? Or, that requires a company to guarantee employment full-time until retirement?
Think about some jobs in US economy that have some proportion that have always been temporary such as construction, electricians, carpenters, drywallers, landscaping, etc.
The model of the middle of the last century whereby you start working for a company after high school (or less) and are "guaranteed" full-time employment by that company until age 65 (with a gold watch) is dead. Both blue-collar and white collar workers starting out in early 20's have to have mindset that they will have many, many jobs/employers over their working life.
I'll agree with that one. One of the few advantages when we owned the notorious Windstall was that every time we brought it in for anything they gave us a loaner. At one point we had the Grand Marquis and a Town Car in fairly rapid succession. The Town Car was more gussied up but not really a better car.
Surprisingly enough Mexico has strong labor laws. I do not know the particulars on auto workers. I know in the restaurant business the waiters are very well protected.
Still not clear why vehicles assembled/built by union workers are superior to non-union labor.
I do not believe that I said they were superior. In theory Union workers should be happier & more productive. My buying Union made is a personal preference in so much as I get a very nice retirement from my 37 years in the Union. Sadly you are correct. There is little company loyalty toward workers and that translates into little loyalty toward the employer.
Your statement about part time workers, shows your mindset on business in this country. Part time may have its place. Many companies abuse it to avoid paying benefits to full time employee. This Congress that touts being for the working man should address that issue. It is much more important than raising the minimum wage. No one around here will get out of bed for minimum wage.
There should be a law limiting teasing workers with part time positions forever and ever so the company doesn't have to give benefits and in most cases give them the option for pay increases after the starting period when they're full time workers.
Maybe you can check on the description of the employment at the Georgetown Toyo plant they gave to the state and local authorities when requesting tax breaks et al for building their plant. Did they propose a higher and higher rate of part time employment or did they promise XXXX full time, well-paying jobs? Which do you think?
>construction, electricians, carpenters, drywallers, landscaping,
They don't have rain and snow and winter cold inside the auto plant so I doubt the variability affecting full time employment as e.g. a landscaper is germane to this discussion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So, which is worse? Toyota keeping 425 temp workers at Georgetown, or Delphi hiring 2000 temps to fill the role of thousands that were laid off? That said, if I were a temp, and frustrated with my employer, won't it be a good idea to just move on? There are no strings attached! And why don't we talk about these "American" companies (Manpower Inc in that article) that bring those temps to their employers (foreign or domestic)?
Its not about what we think, it should be about what we know. If you have details and data (not assumptions) to compare business models, then we have something to talk about. Until then.
Are you suggesting that a Mexican built product is just as good as domestic? Do you consider a 100% Mexican or Canadian product to be "American"? Or, are we talking "Made in the USA"?
American built Camry and Mexican built Fusion, which one would you choose?
I've been to the city of Toluca a few times where some of the auto factories are, and I've seen Mexicans load Beetles onto the ship at Veracruz. The people in these places seem to know what they are doing just like other spots I've visited. I've spent time in Canton too and I might be a bit dubious about a MS built Nissan at the moment. Seems like that factory has taken too long to get up to speed. But all in all, most brands available to us in NA are pretty reliable these days. Even Land Rover has gotten better.
You seem confused on several issues. First the employees from Delphi were offered an early out package. It was voluntary. I took the same thing from our company. If as you keep saying they hired 2000 temps that is not the same as part time employees. Are those temps covered by a Union contract that specifies how long they can be dragged along until becoming permanent?
You are doing just what you are accusing others of doing. You make statements without links to back up your statements. The reason for Temp companies is to find prospective workers. It is good business to hire from a pool of workers. A smartly managed company will watch that temp employee and bring them on full time if they are what is needed. I would not say these companies are all run completely above board. That is the reason you have an advocate in the form of a Union. Not all big companies are anti Union. When I worked for RCA Global Communications, they invited the Teamsters Union in. That is how I became a Union member, and very thankful for it.
The real question is what percentage of each was built in America? If they hauled a box of parts from Japan to assemble the Camry, I hardly consider that made in America. Same for the Ford. I know a few here would like to say buying a $500 TV is the same as a $25,000 vehicle. BIG difference in money flowing out of the country.
I talked to some people in Mesa Verde with a rental Fusion. They liked it so well they were considering buying one.
Ford Motor Co.'s Fusion car is built in Mexico, using a transmission from Japan and an engine from Ohio. The government lists the Fusion's domestic content at 30 percent.
Motortrend
Foreign-based manufacturers like Toyota can identify models like the Camry as ``domestic" cars because they meet the government yardstick of having 75 percent or more of their parts made in the United States or Canada.
The Boston Globe
So the Camry has 75% domestic content and is built in the good ole' US of A. Fusion has 30% domestic content and built in Mexico. Which one would you choose?
When cuts need to be made, they are the first to go - without any of the benefits enjoyed by either UAW members or regular white-collar workers. GM isn't necessarily trying to find permanent workers by using these contract (which, let's face it, are really temporary) workers - it wants more flexibility in sizing its workforce.
As for companies being anti-union - GM tolerates the union because it has no choice, much like one of us might tolerate an obnoxious relative. It didn't invite the UAW to represent blue-collar workers. Workers won that right after the bitter sitdown strikes at GM in the mid-1930s. The union only won because Michigan's governor refused to send in the state police to forcibly clear out the plants (which is what GM management wanted him to do).
This was child's play compared to what Ford, under the leadership of Henry Ford and Harry Bennett, did to fight the UAW. As photos of the Battle of the Overpass show, it was literally a fight between UAW organizers and Bennett's goon squad.
Given GM's increased reliance on products produced in plants located in Mexico and Korea, and the recent closure of several GM plants in the U.S., I think it can be safely said that GM is attempting to slowly shift as much production away from the UAW as is politically possible.
Look at Delphi. GM spun it off, and included a provision that it would only be responsible for UAW member pensions and benefits until 2009, if I recall correctly. This backfired when Delphi went into bankrutpcy earlier than GM obviously expected. GM did NOT intend to be on the hook for UAW member benefits and pay forever. It just gambled and lost when it guessed how long Delphi could last on its own.
If you notice gagrice's earlier post (response to me), you would see favoritism based on distance from the USA. So, "made in the USA" no longer applies. It is about not buying anything that is branded Japanese regardless of how much domestic content the vehicle has or where it is made (not sure if he would include anything European as well).
I thought you were all about "USA" and its economy? How about Cuba? Germany? England? Italy? France? What criteria do you use to pick and choose to help with your money? Is it distance from where you live?
BIG difference in money flowing out of the country.
And you're perfectly fine with that happening to Mexico or Canada. :surprise:
I'll leave it to you to supply details and data rather than your assumptions. It's obvious you have more experience with the work world.
>Delphi hiring 2000 temps
Those Delphi workers won't be strung on year-to-year. They'll have opportunity to become permanent if their job persists. Some of those are truly for temporary positions at Delphi, which is a Toyo supplier I assume. Rockylee had posted some about the temporary filler staff at Delphi. Maybe he'll chime in if he's on here.
>frustrated with my employer, won't it be a good idea to just move on?
The plants were built and planned in right-to-work states and in areas of low employment so the workers would be pressured into staying with what are well-paying full time jobs; if they're temps they probably can't go down the street to the next village to Georgetown and get-a-job. Perhaps Lexington offers some more employement. The new plants also were very careful not to employ auto workers from other areas even if they were ready to move there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Hang on. I'm not the one arguing on assumptions. I'm asking you to back up your claims.
Those Delphi workers won't be strung on year-to-year.
Says who? Besides, temp workers should be able to leave anytime they desire, right?
The plants were built and planned in right-to-work states and in areas of low employment so the workers would be pressured into staying with what are well-paying full time jobs
Name a company you have in mind that has only full time jobs. Besides, you seem to know about these contracts companies have with the states. Could you provide more details on it, specifically on Toyota-Kentucky deal for Georgetown.
My nephew works for Nucor - they recycle washing machines into car sheetmetal. My niece's hubby (nephew in law?) works at one of those foundries that some Harvard hedge fund boys bought out. That outfit makes brake drums and rotors.
So far that's true. What I don't know is whether Nucor is making sheetmetal for Mexican VWs or if the foundry is sending brake drums to Canada. Let's assume the foundry only sells to Detroit (their traditional customer) and Nucor ships only to Mexico.
Which family member do I pick to support with my next car purchase?
By law you ( they ) can't do that. If the sticker says 90% NA content then 90% of the parts were made here.
Steel, aluminum, glass, seating, tires, gaskets, fasteners, rods, engines, stampings, etc etc etc.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Either way, Americans are employed to produce those parts. That is what matters.
It's good that "alien" companies set up shop here. Shows that the U.S. is still a good place to manufacture both parts and the final product.
You can misrepresent all you like. I said I would take the Fusion on looks. It would be the content that would be important also. And yes I would rather send jobs to Mexico and Canada, than Japan, China, India or where ever. North America is more important to me than the rest. I think you are aware of why we should be propping up the job market in Mexico. If not you need to read the papers. Living in TX it should be obvious. I consider Canada and Mexico better allies than most of the rest of the world. Many countries would love to see us collapse, except for the huge amounts of money that flow in from the USA.
You seem to act like you have to get my approval for where you spend your money on a vehicle. Your twisting of the facts has in no way deterred my feelings on trying to keep the US economy in good shape. If I cannot find an American made vehicle I like so be it. It will not be because I am anti-Domestic as you seem to be.
Was that Camry one made in the USA or one made in Japan? I think that Toyota has about a 50% US manufactured vehicles.
On looks the Fusion
In reality neither one.
I would rather buy a car built by someone in KY or Mexico than Japan or Korea or China or India. I don't know why that is hard to fathom.
Add to the fact the added complexity in determining "domestic content" which can come from pre-assembled units supplied to automakers. Let us assume I employ fifty people in Texas to assemble an IC board in which every component is imported.
These assembled boards are now provided to, say, GM's facility in Ft Worth from a "domestic vendor". Would these guys count that board as an import or domestic? How would this piece show up on the sticker showing "domestic content".
The engines are captive in that they're smelted and forged in Missouri by Bodine Aluminum and finished in WV and Ala by a Toyota plant then shipped to the assembly plant.
Aisin in N Carolina provides a lot of the trannies and electronics.
90% means 90% built fabricated here.
Was that Camry one made in the USA or one made in Japan?
Not sure what the question is about, but when I bought my Accord, it didn't matter where it was built. At the time (1998 model), Honda had the capacity to build 340K Accords in Ohio, and the difference (about 60K more) would have to come from somewhere else. Back then it was from Japan. Recently I have heard, the supply is from Mexico (do I see a happier you?).
IMO, it is ridiculous to favor Mexico over Japan. That only shows a personal bias since it clearly doesn't tell me much about your preference for "Made in the USA". Now that definition has extended beyond USA likely to justify production of domestically branded things in USA. Perhaps you value Ford investing $9B in Mexico more than you do Toyota investing $2.4B in the USA. Don't you?
Helping Mexico rid of unemployment is somehow better than Toyota opening a facility in Kentucky. Did I get that right?
They might as well, as you wouldn't notice it. :P
The reason they build locally is to take advantage of costs of importing vehicles. The idea is no different from what any business is supposed to do... earn $$$. But in the process of disapproving their move, you couldn't less about positive impact they are having on US economy. But, you would rather support foreign plants owned by domestic brands (i.e. imports) than domestic facilities owned by foreign brands.
In other words, you care more about those 6% flowing into the USA, than the 94% that is going out to those workers in Brazil, and Ford's accountants in India. But thats your choice! Learn to live with it. You should not expect everybody else to follow those reasons that I think are nothing but poor excuses to make ones life miserable.
Perhaps you might like the idea of putting a banner (and sitting under it) in front of Toyota's manufacturing facility suggesting... "boycott products from this factory, America is better served by products we import from Mexico and Brazil".
Try it. :shades:
I believe, if at all possible in supporting my neighborhood, then city, then county, then state, then country, then my neighboring countries. I don't believe I can make it any clearer than that. And if at all possible I will buy UNION Made in USA products.
If my Dell laptop was made in China and uses tech support from India. Let me know who in the USA makes a competitive product, I will check it out.
Ok, now we're coming down to exchanging advice. Its not about my ties to Japan, it seems to be your hatred for some countries. But it seems you would be just as much home in Mexico or Canada as you are in the USA. Right? Thats the criteria you use, not me. The world is mine.
So, why would you be perfectly happy to buy ML320 (a German vehicle) that is made in South America? I'm confused.
If my Dell laptop was made in China and uses tech support from India. Let me know who in the USA makes a competitive product, I will check it out.
HP. They make those in Taiwan (at least mine is). :shades:
"Systemax™ is the Great American PC Maker.
Ask your current PC Vendor 3 questions:
1. Are 100% of their systems assembled in the USA by US workers?
2. Are 100% of their tech support calls and emails answered in the USA by US workers?
3. Do they have a company policy to NEVER export American jobs?
If they can't answer YES to all 3 questions, then come ask Systemax™. We say "Yes" to the American worker. We are the largest, most reliable PC manufacturer in the country that can make these claims. We've been assembling and supporting the highest quality PCs with the latest technology in Fletcher, Ohio for over 20 years."
Systemax Computer page Check near bottom--3 questions for your PC supplier
I've bought two Systemax computers from them. Three year complete warranty. English-speaking representatives mostly with midwest accents at the Fletcher location for Systemax and for Global Gov/ed purchasing. Tigerdirect.com and global.com all offer the same built to suit Systemax computers
I had Dells from work and found them next to impossible both on language and service of their minimal quality, lowest bid parts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
With 100% imported content, I presume. :P