Is there really such a thing as a tune up anymore?
I don't care where my car was made, but if the manufacturer recommends anything less than a 7,500 mile oil change interval, or 105k spark plug interval or 105k timing belt interval - well, I'm going to go check out the next dealer. My '97 Subaru is starting to irritate me with demands at a mere 60k.
Most cars these days should purr right along to 100k with benign neglect.
Should I change the bulbs every 2 years, or every 10? Never had a bulb go out on my Honda, nor my parents Toyota while I was driving it.
You are a lucky man. Not only have I had to change the headlamps (as well as several other lamps) on the Accord, but I had to remove the battery to do it, which then requires re-coding the radio, etc. When the CHMSL bulb went on the Accord, it burnt the socket with it. This car has been on a hook/left me stranded more than any other car I have ever had.
The Civic was a great car, good handling and easy to drive and in the early 90s, considerably better than the domestic competition, but it also required a very expensive timing belt/water pump service, an entire cooling system, replacing every bulb in the vehicle (and I mean dome lamp and cluster bulbs too).
The Contour left me on roadside once with a bad water-pump at 150k. This wouldn't have happened in the Civic because the water-pump gets replaced as part of a $750 timing belt service every 90k. Incidentally, the replacement cost for the Contour was considerably less than $750.
None of these were bad vehicles, I found the Contour the most rewarding to drive with the 2.5l V6 and a 5spd manual transmission, but alas, I have to go to a Mazda6 to get that experience these days...
I did not get the pics. I think it is the same ones sent to me a while back. It is quite a place we have built for the Saudi Royal family to enjoy. Wonder how the Toyoda family lives on our dime.
i think the early neons sucked but they did get better as time went on...my neighbor has had one for the last 8 years ( 2 different neons) and they have always run good for him
1998 Accord EX-L/AT, bought October 1997 (among the first units to roll off the floor in Ohio after a major redesign).
Odometer (as of today): 177,300 miles
Parts replaced: All regular wear and tear items (wiper, batteries, front headlamps which are almost always on in my cars, tail lamp only once, batteries and tires a few times, front brake pads at 90K and rear brake pads at 132K and so on). Regular oil change and maintenance. The only broken piece happens to be a piece of radiator hose that cracked at about 150K miles and an occasional keyless unlock feature on front passenger door.
I'm a leadfooted driver who could be deemed abusive to cars. There is not a squeak to be heard inside. The car has surprised a lot of my friends with its age and miles. Then I show them areas where the age shows... signs of wear on the leather wrapped steering wheel where I put my hands (since it is gray, the wear shows up, it won't if it were black). And a few buttons have the markings off (on the steering wheel). Oh, and a few dings outside.
That is a great illustration of a well designed, engineered and built car. It is still a car that I don't mind taking on road trips (and for me, driving four hours to Houston is like commuting, my road trips are generally no less than 2500 miles round trip). Of course, I won't complain about getting 32-33 mpg on highway while cruising at 75 mph either. In mixed driving (50% city), I get 26-27 mpg regularly.
Give me a good reason why I shouldn't consider another Honda.
I tend to keep my cars for 8+ years and well over 100k miles. At some point it needs to be fiddled with to make sure everything is working properly. I usually bring it into a trusted mechanic at the 100k mile annaversiry to make sure everything is working properly.
To me, it is better to spend $100-$150 to prevent being stranded. I do agree that almost any car these days should be able to last 100k miles without much effort. Frankly, I don't think there is much difference between Honda and GM and Toyota and (insert mass market car manufacturer) any more. It is more of a model-by-model issue. Every manufacturer makes a clunker every once in a while.
Its global dime actually. But take your guess. Would it be even close? I don't know about Toyota, but, like I mentioned earlier (from a Forbes article) that top 34 guys at Honda make as much (combined) as the top guy from one of the big-3 (it was mentioned as a part of criticism around the issues surrounding the domestic automakers).
That said, I would think Sheikhs make far more dollars (not dimes) off the USA than they do from others. But it isn't something I worry about. They have got resources, and things we obviously can't live without.
Give me a good reason why I shouldn't consider another Honda.
I never said you, or anybody else, shouldn't. To be honest I don't care what you drive. My point is that you can get that kind of longevity out of any car if you take care of it. But, you DID have to replace the battery! :surprise: For shame!!!!!! I thought batteries should last FOREVER.
Here is a question for you. I have had 2 Saturns with 270K miles with only 2 minor mechanical problems. Why should I consider anything else?
I don't think there is much difference between Honda and GM and Toyota and (insert mass market car manufacturer) any more.
If you happen to be in Dallas area, we should visit dealerships together to compare cars. And I'm not talking about reliability, but I will show you why some brands hold greater appeal to me right away than others. And a little driving only helps further that belief.
>Not only have I had to change the headlamps (as well as several other lamps) on the Accord, but I had to remove the battery to do it, which then requires re-coding the radio, etc. When the CHMSL bulb went on the Accord, it burnt the socket with it.
>it also required a very expensive timing belt/water pump service, an entire cooling system, replacing every bulb in the vehicle (and I mean dome lamp and cluster bulbs too).
The Contour left me on roadside once with a bad water-pump at 150k. This wouldn't have happened in the Civic because the water-pump gets replaced as part of a $750 timing belt service every 90k.
These weren't really Hondas, were they. Andres3 says they never have replacement parts. Say it's not so. :P
You got me. I now admit that because out of the 100 odd models of GM, Ford and Chrysler cars a few of them just pain suck, so all Big 3 cars suck. By that logic any manufacturer that has had a clunker should be banned from all further praise. People should just get off the high-horse and relax a bit.
lilengineerboy: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Ford totally botched the US launch of the Focus; it was one of the things we studied in grad school of how not to do it. The recalls and TSBs for the first year models was a throwback to the 80s.
From what I understand, Ford thought it could skip some pre-production steps in bringing the Focus to America, because the car had been produced in Europe for two years by the time it was ready for America.
Only problem was that Ford had changed many of the parts of the American version, and it was to be built in a different plant, with some different procedures. Hence, the first two years of crappy quality.
In other words, another case of Detroit shooting itself in the foot to save a few dollars.
Ford has worked hard to improve the car, and it now scores reasonably well in reliability surveys. Unfortunately, can't say that I like the proposed 2008 redo.
how many american cars have you owned? maybe you are a crappy american owner like my bro in law who changes his oil once a year...i have bought 5 new american cars over the years and they have all run good and i put on 25 k a year...people like you will make us a 2nd rate power in the years ahead by sending the profits to china and japan...i think overall the asians (i married one) are better workers than americans but not everyone is lazy untalented and pathetic...why dont you get in a corvette, cadillac, chevy tahoe ,f150 or fusion and see how badly engineered or put together they are? buy your foreign cars, but dont make all these untrue exaggerations about domestics.
He didn't say that in that post. He pointed out that there are features and qualities - aside from reliability - that drive him to buy an foreign product over a domestic one.
Judging by the sales figures, plenty of people agree with him. Detroit needs to at least get on those customers' shopping list, and it won't do that by dismissing them as "biased," or calling them deluded, or waving the flag in its ads.
Checking into Hondas and their halo, I see that the model I checked (the Fit) requires new plugs at 60k. Sheesh, give me some platinum plugs please. At least there's not a timing belt change. I suppose it's not an absolute deal killer but I have plenty of other maintenance stuff going on without having to take the car in every few months....
it has 162, 000 miles on it....still runs good...struts and muffler still original after 8 new england winters..i paid a whopping 9800$ for it back in feb 99...never had a repair, other than regular maintenance to it...sold it to my buddy last december...i know many examples of american cars running well for years
Actually coming out with new models is a good thing. They are reacting to people's wishes. I don't see any changing of models as indicative of a problem.
Others would criticize not coming out with new models as being unresponsive and stuck in the mud.
Speaking of changing models... BTW what happened to the Prelude? Legend? Those come to mind. I'm sure there are other names that have disappeared. Reality check.
i had a used accord, the headlights were ok but the switch broke so i couldnt shut them off unless i took cables off of battery... i liked the car but a lot of things went wring with it that i didnt expect for a honda...my first ever asian car
BTW what happened to the Prelude? Legend? Those come to mind. I'm sure there are other names that have disappeared. Reality check.
The Prelude wasn't a hot enough seller on its own and was slightly redundant in the eyes of marketing with the Accord coupe. I personally think that is like comparing a Camaro and a Monte Carlo but whatever.
The Legend (which was a fantastic car in its early days, sedan or coupe, with a great Honda 5spd) got its name changed because Acura wanted people to say they had an Acura, not a Legend or Integra. Thus Acura came out with meaningless combinations of letters (RSX/TSX/TL/RL) for their model line up.
The problem with your logic is it fails to take into account that problems rise exponentially for every year of age on a vehicle.
When you start at a high number you reach a million exponentially faster!
When you start with 0 to 1 problems, you rise much slower. I find that vehicle problems rise exponentially greater as time goes on, so a bad first year, a bad warranty period, is a telltale sign to sell sell sell!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
i had a used accord, the headlights were ok but the switch broke so i couldnt shut them off unless i took cables off of battery... i liked the car but a lot of things went wring with it that i didnt expect for a honda...my first ever asian car
How well it had been maintained by previous owners has a lot to do with it. One of my friends bought a used Corolla that has issue after issue but the guy who owned it before was in 2 serious accidents with it.
There should be a far bigger concern in this nation than just U.S. vs. foreign cars, or Wal-Mart vs. any other store. To get the real picture of what is going on, any one of working age should get on the Internet, and research the "Gini Coefficient". If you have many more years to work, these numbers should scare the He!! out of you. Basically, the Gini Coefficient calculates the disparity of wealth in a given nation. The United States is rapidly catching up to Brazil (in the Americas) for having the greatest amount of wealth concentrated in the fewest hands. If you are fortunate enough to be financially secure, hooray...otherwise, be very concerned about your future.
I don't care what you drive. My point is that you can get that kind of longevity out of any car if you take care of it.
That's a wonderful philosophy if your Bill Gates and can afford the repair bills to keep that domestic running to reach longevity like other people's previous Hondas.
It might take a fortune to keep a Dodge running until 100K, I know it took a small fortune to get it to 65K, and it just kept breaking down more and more and more often. It gets worse, not better, there is always SOMETHING ELSE that can break down; never fall into the trap of asking yourself "well what else could breakdown?" The domestic will answer you with something new (like a broken windshield without any impact!) :sick:
The average American needs a Honda or Toyota to keep their hard earned money in the bank instead of the auto repair shops and tow truck companies (or Mopar replacement parts)
P.S. The Dodge was extremely well cared for and maintained to a high level of care to the point of being babied; though it was driven somewhat hard, but no harder than my buddies problemless Corrolla.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Think GM would change Corvette and Ford would give up on Mustang for that reason? Refreshing models is a necessity, but trying to figure out what works, continuously, is a sign of poor product planning. Successful and benchmark products like Corvette and Mustang don't require that.
You asked about Prelude and Legend. Well, the Legend name went away (only in North America) in favor of alphanumeric nomenclature. It is now called RL. "Vigor" became TL. And Integra was called "RSX". BTW, RSX also became redundant, with Honda being more aggressive with Civic Si (pretty much like Accord Coupe-Prelude duo, albeit in this case even the engine was shared).
As for Prelude, with MY1998, Honda decided to differentiate Accord Coupe substantially from the sedan in terms of styling and dimensions. Prelude, which was developed off Accord was now redundant. Besides, sales in a shrinking (coupe) market doesn't warrant two GT coupes, especially given that Accord was now just as powerful.
Demand fell (or was not seen), and Prelude was lifted off. However, that happened due to demand in a low volume segment. With GM and Ford and Chrysler, we're talking virtually every segment.
Taurus was immensely successful, then was deemed to be exclusively rental queen and now the name is being reused to replace "500" which apparently was a failed attempt to start with. Was "500's" demise in its name?
deminin: Basically, the Gini Coefficient calculates the disparity of wealth in a given nation. The United States is rapidly catching up to Brazil (in the Americas) for having the greatest amount of wealth concentrated in the fewest hands. If you are fortunate enough to be financially secure, hooray...otherwise, be very concerned about your future.
A meaningless figure.
Many lower-middle class people in the United States live better than middle class people is supposedly more "egalitarian" societies. There may be a disparity, but that doesn't take into account the "floor" for living standards within a country.
There isn't much wealth disparity in Cuba...do you think that Cubans live better than we do, or that Cuba has a more dynamic economy than the U.S. does?
What you failed to realize is all the things he listed as going bad on his domestic were things that never went bad on his Honda. Small, minor, or indifferent, all of the items listed didn't just "give out" in the Honda.
Thanks for jumping in. There is just something junky about many parts on GM cars I've had such as taillight/stoplight bulbs that fail, power window controls, interior trim pieces that fall off, rattles, etc. With 8 Hondas owned over last 23 years for a total of 770K+ miles, have never had to replace a taillight/stoplight bulb nor power window control (84 Honda was manual). Same is true with 97 Maxima with 181K miles on it now. Also, that Nissan VQ V6 engine is probably the 8th wonder of the world engineering wise. GM could learn a lot from Nissan on how to build engines. Also have 04 and 07 TLs.
I will mention again that unless one has owned a Honda/Acura and GM (and probably Ford or Chrysler) car side by side for years, they really do not have any basis for comparison of relative merits of each. If you only drove GM (or Ford or Chrysler) all of your life, you are living in a sheltered world.
I didn't say ALL domestic models were poorly built, engineered, and conceived, but many of them are.
Inconsistency is a big problem. Not every American worker is lazy untalented and pathetic, but I guarantee you Dodge/Chrysler had some of them working for them in the early and mid-90's. More than some; it had to be most!; or wouldn't the majority DO SOMETHING to overcome making pathetic product? Why would the majority of the workers allow a minority to force them into building cars that feel like they were designed with all the ingenuity of a disposable BIC razor?
The American Auto Worker gets a D- grade from me in it's history of performance.
P.S. The one domestic vehicle I had was more than enough, thank you very much. It was my first car too, therefore I babied it and took great care of it, but that doesn't matter with a domestic. With an asian make, you can neglect it and it remains problem free. With a domestic, you can pamper it and it'll remain problem riddled.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
There is just something junky about many parts on GM cars I've had such as taillight/stoplight bulbs that fail, power window controls, interior trim pieces that fall off, rattles
Amen to that. While the newer designs seem much better, GM has shown some seriously deficient fit and finish.
I don't know what it is with the light bulbs GM uses. I replace the DRLs in my Suburban about every 3-6 mos(I had one burn out in 2 weeks). I've seen '07 Tahoes/Escalades with burnt out DRLs already.
While my Suburban does display a certain ruggedness, the fit and finish is horible. I'm sure I'll get 200k out of it, but I'll be putting up with a lot of BS along the way.
The American Auto Worker gets a D- grade from me in it's history of performance.
I would not blame the American Auto Worker. Responsibility for overall vehicle design and all components/systems and final product quality/reliability rests with the managers of the company, with top management getting most of the blame for not providing guidance and not setting proper culture. Most workers will perform to their ultimate capabilities with proper training and direction from management. There are numerous examples of a new management team and owners taking over a faltering company, retaining and retraining the workers and then turning out excellent product.
Andres3, You have made many strong statements about how perfect Hondas are. I understand that you really, really are satisfied with your Honda experience.
What Honda will be your next purchase, assuming you own aHonda currently? Would you be broad minded enough to shop the equivalent GM cars?
How did you fare with the transmission problems in Honda's lines.
I understand it now: Honda changes names, good; GM changes names, bad. It was actually easy as Judge Judy says.
Honda does not change names that often and rarely has a model that has been a failure as GM has had over last 3-4 decades. GM just drops the model name because the associated vehicle was a failure. We can start with Corvair, then Vega, Citation and X cars, Aztek, Fiero, Alero, Bravada, Chevette, Cimarron, Catera, on and on and on and on and on.........
I agree. Virtually everybody and largely the proponents of "buy domestic brand" rhetoric are very quick to point fingers at UAW and workers in general. They do assemble cars, but they don't take critical decisions. It wasn't workers who selected the cruise control unit in 1990s Fords to save couple of dollars/unit only to realize later that they can heat up and cause fire or burn people.
Pontiac G6 was supposed to be a fresh breath of air for Pontiac lineup, to compete with Accord and like. And then one notices small details like tail lamps only to wonder what gives them that idea? If there are serious cost cutting ideas that are blatantly visible, I don't want to imagine that under the skin.
A very simple illustration would be the tail lamp. Even my 1998 Accord has 4 or 5 bulbs per tail lamp cluster (one for reverse, one for side indicator and others for tail lamp/brake light). In G6, 2 bulbs do it all (fortunately, a separate bulb is necessarily for reverse-lamp or else they might just use one for everything). Simple things. At least they did a great job on Aura (which is visually identical to G6 except for extra chrome but designed with the passion that I generally associate with foreign makes).
And then you come across an article like this: ""GM exec cool on diesels", only to wonder why the top execs choose to lag behind others and later try to catch up. Here is an inexcusable argument...
"Are buyers of smaller cars actually going to pay a $4,000 to $5,000 premium to get a diesel engine, when the tougher the emissions [standards] you have to meet, the more the fuel efficiency savings[compared to a gasoline engine] shrinks?" Lutz says in the video
Well, Mr Lutz, wake up. Even in Mercedes E320 Bluetec, the premium is barely a grand. Why would it be several times more in a small car? Perhaps a valid point if he doesn't believe in his engineers.
And then we might as well blame UAW for him saying that. :P
I understand it now: Honda changes names, good; GM changes names, bad. It was actually easy as Judge Judy says.
You better stop watching Judge Judy. She's getting into your head.
If changing names to adhere to a new standard is what you're talking about, be advised, we're not really discussing changes like Seville to STS or Deville to DTS or Catera to CTS. Or Zephyr to MKZ.
We're talking, kill Escort and Contour, and we will come up with Focus which will sell. Kill Neon as Caliber is bound to be a success.
While we're at it... how about we phase out Taurus and replace it with Fusion. Sure boss, let us do it. A few months later... boss, Five Hundred isn't selling well, and neither is Freestyle. Ok, let us rename the Five Hundred "Taurus" and Freestyle "Taurus X". :P
You can't compare Honda discontinuing a couple of models with GM shuffling new models in and out of the line up every year.
Since the early 1980s how many cars has Honda eliminated or renamed?
Off the top of my head...
CRX becomes the Del Sol in spirit at least then is killed. Prelude is killed in favor of the Accord Integra is killed in Acura Alphanumeric naming restructure So is the Legend and the Vigor
That is pretty much the complete list unless you want to include the badge engineering jobs...
If so then the SLX That was really an Isuzu Trooper is one and so is the Honda Passport that was really a Rodeo.
I don't think I could count all the different cars GM has killed, renamed, brought back to live then killed again with a single post.
I agree with you on American manufactures have dropped the ball or decided to do something sneaky and build repairs into the vehicles they produce by using parts that aren't worth much. However the Asian market isn't without it's problems namely their SUVs for awhile and the start up companies, I don't bring up European cars on purpose cause from what I'm told breakdowns are part of ownership as well as electrical problems. I have know problem owning a vehicle from any of the markets wether it be American,European, and Asian markets, cause they are all making vehicles that will last over 100,000mi. It all depends if you get a lemon or not.
You miss the point of the Gini figures. They are not meant to compare one nation to another...rather the spread of wealth within a given nation. As the wealth gap widens, those on the lower end of the economic scale always suffer the most. Take a little time and study these principles..you might develop a little different perspective on where this country is headed.
''Even my 1998 Accord has 4 or 5 bulbs per tail lamp cluster (one for reverse, one for side indicator and others for tail lamp/brake light). In G6, 2 bulbs do it all''
I'm not sure how I understand how using less bulbs in a taillight makes one vehicle not as good as another one
Are buyers of smaller cars actually going to pay a $4,000 to $5,000 premium to get a diesel engine, when the tougher the emissions [standards] you have to meet, the more the fuel efficiency savings[compared to a gasoline engine] shrinks?" Lutz says in the video
Well, Mr Lutz, wake up.
Don't forget that Mr. kLutz was the whiner about CAFE standards getting raised, too. It's not like every auto manufacturer has the same challenge. I didn't hear Toyota whining when they decided to design a hybrid in the '90's. This at the time when GM was making huge profits on SUVS. A major lack of foresight on GM's part.
Depends. Assuming the bulbs are selected with greater care for q/c, then each bulb is on less often than if you are using two bulbs. This set up might reduce the frequency of when bulbs burned out. However if you are not careful with the q/c and the bulbs are junky then this set up will make it way more likely to have burned out bulbs.
Now what good q/c can do is select for bulbs that last longer and thus not disappoint the owner when his new car blows a bulb in the first year or so. With my trecel, I replaced one headlight at the three year mark and another at the twelve year mark. I would have been pissed if 6 months after buying the car if failed.
Anyway I think what hurts the domestics most is lack of r/d and not quality control. Workers can only build with what they are given. With good r/d you sort out problems before they hit the market (Focus). You make cars that are trendy (Pruis). You make cars that meet expectations. In short you make the cars that people want. This I think is hurting them much more than anything at the moment.
there is a good reason to use many separate bulbs if you use 2 bulbs for everything is one burns out you lose every function that bulb performed, with many separate bulbs you only lose the function of the one bulb that burned out
deminin: As the wealth gap widens, those on the lower end of the economic scale always suffer the most.
No. There is no proof that today's poor are worse off than their counterparts in 1950 or even 1980.
deminin: Take a little time and study these principles..you might develop a little different perspective on where this country is headed.
Take a little time to study history, including the spread of various consumer products among the people we classify as "poor," and you'll be better prepared to judge the true state of the union.
Thanks for jumping in. There is just something junky about many parts on GM cars I've had such as taillight/stoplight bulbs that fail, power window controls, interior trim pieces that fall off, rattles, etc. With 8 Hondas owned over last 23 years for a total of 770K+ miles, have never had to replace a taillight/stoplight bulb nor power window control (84 Honda was manual).
Wow, in both of my Accords, I have replaced EVERY power window motor and the master switch unit. This is in contrast to the Contour and 2 Escorts that didn't require a single motor or window switch replacement. I have also had to replace every bulb in the Accord and the Civic (which had manual windows). The Contour needed a new foglamp bulb shortly after I got it, and I replaced the cute little green lights in the doors when I upgraded the speakers, since they were apart anyway.
Comments
I don't care where my car was made, but if the manufacturer recommends anything less than a 7,500 mile oil change interval, or 105k spark plug interval or 105k timing belt interval - well, I'm going to go check out the next dealer. My '97 Subaru is starting to irritate me with demands at a mere 60k.
Most cars these days should purr right along to 100k with benign neglect.
You are a lucky man. Not only have I had to change the headlamps (as well as several other lamps) on the Accord, but I had to remove the battery to do it, which then requires re-coding the radio, etc. When the CHMSL bulb went on the Accord, it burnt the socket with it. This car has been on a hook/left me stranded more than any other car I have ever had.
The Civic was a great car, good handling and easy to drive and in the early 90s, considerably better than the domestic competition, but it also required a very expensive timing belt/water pump service, an entire cooling system, replacing every bulb in the vehicle (and I mean dome lamp and cluster bulbs too).
The Contour left me on roadside once with a bad water-pump at 150k. This wouldn't have happened in the Civic because the water-pump gets replaced as part of a $750 timing belt service every 90k. Incidentally, the replacement cost for the Contour was considerably less than $750.
None of these were bad vehicles, I found the Contour the most rewarding to drive with the 2.5l V6 and a 5spd manual transmission, but alas, I have to go to a Mazda6 to get that experience these days...
Odometer (as of today): 177,300 miles
Parts replaced: All regular wear and tear items (wiper, batteries, front headlamps which are almost always on in my cars, tail lamp only once, batteries and tires a few times, front brake pads at 90K and rear brake pads at 132K and so on). Regular oil change and maintenance. The only broken piece happens to be a piece of radiator hose that cracked at about 150K miles and an occasional keyless unlock feature on front passenger door.
I'm a leadfooted driver who could be deemed abusive to cars. There is not a squeak to be heard inside. The car has surprised a lot of my friends with its age and miles. Then I show them areas where the age shows... signs of wear on the leather wrapped steering wheel where I put my hands (since it is gray, the wear shows up, it won't if it were black). And a few buttons have the markings off (on the steering wheel). Oh, and a few dings outside.
That is a great illustration of a well designed, engineered and built car. It is still a car that I don't mind taking on road trips (and for me, driving four hours to Houston is like commuting, my road trips are generally no less than 2500 miles round trip). Of course, I won't complain about getting 32-33 mpg on highway while cruising at 75 mph either. In mixed driving (50% city), I get 26-27 mpg regularly.
Give me a good reason why I shouldn't consider another Honda.
To me, it is better to spend $100-$150 to prevent being stranded. I do agree that almost any car these days should be able to last 100k miles without much effort. Frankly, I don't think there is much difference between Honda and GM and Toyota and (insert mass market car manufacturer) any more. It is more of a model-by-model issue. Every manufacturer makes a clunker every once in a while.
Its global dime actually. But take your guess. Would it be even close? I don't know about Toyota, but, like I mentioned earlier (from a Forbes article) that top 34 guys at Honda make as much (combined) as the top guy from one of the big-3 (it was mentioned as a part of criticism around the issues surrounding the domestic automakers).
That said, I would think Sheikhs make far more dollars (not dimes) off the USA than they do from others. But it isn't something I worry about. They have got resources, and things we obviously can't live without.
I never said you, or anybody else, shouldn't. To be honest I don't care what you drive. My point is that you can get that kind of longevity out of any car if you take care of it. But, you DID have to replace the battery! :surprise: For shame!!!!!! I thought batteries should last FOREVER.
Here is a question for you. I have had 2 Saturns with 270K miles with only 2 minor mechanical problems. Why should I consider anything else?
If you happen to be in Dallas area, we should visit dealerships together to compare cars. And I'm not talking about reliability, but I will show you why some brands hold greater appeal to me right away than others. And a little driving only helps further that belief.
>it also required a very expensive timing belt/water pump service, an entire cooling system, replacing every bulb in the vehicle (and I mean dome lamp and cluster bulbs too).
The Contour left me on roadside once with a bad water-pump at 150k. This wouldn't have happened in the Civic because the water-pump gets replaced as part of a $750 timing belt service every 90k.
These weren't really Hondas, were they. Andres3 says they never have replacement parts. Say it's not so. :P
Nicely objective post. Thanks.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You shouldn't. There is no need to. If your vehicles bring a grin to your face despite their age, everytime, I see no reason.
That said, can you even recall how many different models Saturn has launched over last ten years? What forces them to do that?
From what I understand, Ford thought it could skip some pre-production steps in bringing the Focus to America, because the car had been produced in Europe for two years by the time it was ready for America.
Only problem was that Ford had changed many of the parts of the American version, and it was to be built in a different plant, with some different procedures. Hence, the first two years of crappy quality.
In other words, another case of Detroit shooting itself in the foot to save a few dollars.
Ford has worked hard to improve the car, and it now scores reasonably well in reliability surveys. Unfortunately, can't say that I like the proposed 2008 redo.
Judging by the sales figures, plenty of people agree with him. Detroit needs to at least get on those customers' shopping list, and it won't do that by dismissing them as "biased," or calling them deluded, or waving the flag in its ads.
Checking into Hondas and their halo, I see that the model I checked (the Fit) requires new plugs at 60k. Sheesh, give me some platinum plugs please. At least there's not a timing belt change. I suppose it's not an absolute deal killer but I have plenty of other maintenance stuff going on without having to take the car in every few months....
Others would criticize not coming out with new models as being unresponsive and stuck in the mud.
Speaking of changing models... BTW what happened to the Prelude? Legend? Those come to mind. I'm sure there are other names that have disappeared. Reality check.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Prelude wasn't a hot enough seller on its own and was slightly redundant in the eyes of marketing with the Accord coupe. I personally think that is like comparing a Camaro and a Monte Carlo but whatever.
The Legend (which was a fantastic car in its early days, sedan or coupe, with a great Honda 5spd) got its name changed because Acura wanted people to say they had an Acura, not a Legend or Integra. Thus Acura came out with meaningless combinations of letters (RSX/TSX/TL/RL) for their model line up.
When you start at a high number you reach a million exponentially faster!
When you start with 0 to 1 problems, you rise much slower. I find that vehicle problems rise exponentially greater as time goes on, so a bad first year, a bad warranty period, is a telltale sign to sell sell sell!
How well it had been maintained by previous owners has a lot to do with it. One of my friends bought a used Corolla that has issue after issue but the guy who owned it before was in 2 serious accidents with it.
Being as they changed the name to Caliber, I don't think they ever improved enough to be called "mediocre" let alone a quality product.
That's a wonderful philosophy if your Bill Gates and can afford the repair bills to keep that domestic running to reach longevity like other people's previous Hondas.
It might take a fortune to keep a Dodge running until 100K, I know it took a small fortune to get it to 65K, and it just kept breaking down more and more and more often.
It gets worse, not better, there is always SOMETHING ELSE that can break down; never fall into the trap of asking yourself "well what else could breakdown?" The domestic will answer you with something new (like a broken windshield without any impact!) :sick:
The average American needs a Honda or Toyota to keep their hard earned money in the bank instead of the auto repair shops and tow truck companies (or Mopar replacement parts)
P.S. The Dodge was extremely well cared for and maintained to a high level of care to the point of being babied; though it was driven somewhat hard, but no harder than my buddies problemless Corrolla.
You asked about Prelude and Legend. Well, the Legend name went away (only in North America) in favor of alphanumeric nomenclature. It is now called RL. "Vigor" became TL. And Integra was called "RSX". BTW, RSX also became redundant, with Honda being more aggressive with Civic Si (pretty much like Accord Coupe-Prelude duo, albeit in this case even the engine was shared).
As for Prelude, with MY1998, Honda decided to differentiate Accord Coupe substantially from the sedan in terms of styling and dimensions. Prelude, which was developed off Accord was now redundant. Besides, sales in a shrinking (coupe) market doesn't warrant two GT coupes, especially given that Accord was now just as powerful.
Demand fell (or was not seen), and Prelude was lifted off. However, that happened due to demand in a low volume segment. With GM and Ford and Chrysler, we're talking virtually every segment.
Taurus was immensely successful, then was deemed to be exclusively rental queen and now the name is being reused to replace "500" which apparently was a failed attempt to start with. Was "500's" demise in its name?
A meaningless figure.
Many lower-middle class people in the United States live better than middle class people is supposedly more "egalitarian" societies. There may be a disparity, but that doesn't take into account the "floor" for living standards within a country.
There isn't much wealth disparity in Cuba...do you think that Cubans live better than we do, or that Cuba has a more dynamic economy than the U.S. does?
Thanks for jumping in. There is just something junky about many parts on GM cars I've had such as taillight/stoplight bulbs that fail, power window controls, interior trim pieces that fall off, rattles, etc. With 8 Hondas owned over last 23 years for a total of 770K+ miles, have never had to replace a taillight/stoplight bulb nor power window control (84 Honda was manual). Same is true with 97 Maxima with 181K miles on it now. Also, that Nissan VQ V6 engine is probably the 8th wonder of the world engineering wise. GM could learn a lot from Nissan on how to build engines. Also have 04 and 07 TLs.
I will mention again that unless one has owned a Honda/Acura and GM (and probably Ford or Chrysler) car side by side for years, they really do not have any basis for comparison of relative merits of each. If you only drove GM (or Ford or Chrysler) all of your life, you are living in a sheltered world.
Inconsistency is a big problem. Not every American worker is lazy untalented and pathetic, but I guarantee you Dodge/Chrysler had some of them working for them in the early and mid-90's. More than some; it had to be most!; or wouldn't the majority DO SOMETHING to overcome making pathetic product? Why would the majority of the workers allow a minority to force them into building cars that feel like they were designed with all the ingenuity of a disposable BIC razor?
The American Auto Worker gets a D- grade from me in it's history of performance.
P.S. The one domestic vehicle I had was more than enough, thank you very much. It was my first car too, therefore I babied it and took great care of it, but that doesn't matter with a domestic. With an asian make, you can neglect it and it remains problem free. With a domestic, you can pamper it and it'll remain problem riddled.
Amen to that. While the newer designs seem much better, GM has shown some seriously deficient fit and finish.
I don't know what it is with the light bulbs GM uses. I replace the DRLs in my Suburban about every 3-6 mos(I had one burn out in 2 weeks). I've seen '07 Tahoes/Escalades with burnt out DRLs already.
While my Suburban does display a certain ruggedness, the fit and finish is horible. I'm sure I'll get 200k out of it, but I'll be putting up with a lot of BS along the way.
I understand it now: Honda changes names, good; GM changes names, bad. It was actually easy as Judge Judy says.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would not blame the American Auto Worker. Responsibility for overall vehicle design and all components/systems and final product quality/reliability rests with the managers of the company, with top management getting most of the blame for not providing guidance and not setting proper culture. Most workers will perform to their ultimate capabilities with proper training and direction from management. There are numerous examples of a new management team and owners taking over a faltering company, retaining and retraining the workers and then turning out excellent product.
You have made many strong statements about how perfect Hondas are. I understand that you really, really are satisfied with your Honda experience.
What Honda will be your next purchase, assuming you own aHonda currently? Would you be broad minded enough to shop the equivalent GM cars?
How did you fare with the transmission problems in Honda's lines.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Honda does not change names that often and rarely has a model that has been a failure as GM has had over last 3-4 decades. GM just drops the model name because the associated vehicle was a failure. We can start with Corvair, then Vega, Citation and X cars, Aztek, Fiero, Alero, Bravada, Chevette, Cimarron, Catera, on and on and on and on and on.........
Pontiac G6 was supposed to be a fresh breath of air for Pontiac lineup, to compete with Accord and like. And then one notices small details like tail lamps only to wonder what gives them that idea? If there are serious cost cutting ideas that are blatantly visible, I don't want to imagine that under the skin.
A very simple illustration would be the tail lamp. Even my 1998 Accord has 4 or 5 bulbs per tail lamp cluster (one for reverse, one for side indicator and others for tail lamp/brake light). In G6, 2 bulbs do it all (fortunately, a separate bulb is necessarily for reverse-lamp or else they might just use one for everything). Simple things. At least they did a great job on Aura (which is visually identical to G6 except for extra chrome but designed with the passion that I generally associate with foreign makes).
And then you come across an article like this: ""GM exec cool on diesels", only to wonder why the top execs choose to lag behind others and later try to catch up. Here is an inexcusable argument...
"Are buyers of smaller cars actually going to pay a $4,000 to $5,000 premium to get a diesel engine, when the tougher the emissions [standards] you have to meet, the more the fuel efficiency savings[compared to a gasoline engine] shrinks?" Lutz says in the video
Well, Mr Lutz, wake up. Even in Mercedes E320 Bluetec, the premium is barely a grand. Why would it be several times more in a small car? Perhaps a valid point if he doesn't believe in his engineers.
And then we might as well blame UAW for him saying that. :P
You better stop watching Judge Judy. She's getting into your head.
If changing names to adhere to a new standard is what you're talking about, be advised, we're not really discussing changes like Seville to STS or Deville to DTS or Catera to CTS. Or Zephyr to MKZ.
We're talking, kill Escort and Contour, and we will come up with Focus which will sell. Kill Neon as Caliber is bound to be a success.
While we're at it... how about we phase out Taurus and replace it with Fusion. Sure boss, let us do it.
A few months later... boss, Five Hundred isn't selling well, and neither is Freestyle. Ok, let us rename the Five Hundred "Taurus" and Freestyle "Taurus X". :P
Since the early 1980s how many cars has Honda eliminated or renamed?
Off the top of my head...
CRX becomes the Del Sol in spirit at least then is killed.
Prelude is killed in favor of the Accord
Integra is killed in Acura Alphanumeric naming restructure
So is the Legend and the Vigor
That is pretty much the complete list unless you want to include the badge engineering jobs...
If so then the SLX That was really an Isuzu Trooper is one and so is the Honda Passport that was really a Rodeo.
I don't think I could count all the different cars GM has killed, renamed, brought back to live then killed again with a single post.
This forum does have a character limit you know.
I'm not sure how I understand how using less bulbs in a taillight makes one vehicle not as good as another one
Well, Mr Lutz, wake up.
Don't forget that Mr. kLutz was the whiner about CAFE standards getting raised, too. It's not like every auto manufacturer has the same challenge. I didn't hear Toyota whining when they decided to design a hybrid in the '90's. This at the time when GM was making huge profits on SUVS. A major lack of foresight on GM's part.
Now what good q/c can do is select for bulbs that last longer and thus not disappoint the owner when his new car blows a bulb in the first year or so. With my trecel, I replaced one headlight at the three year mark and another at the twelve year mark. I would have been pissed if 6 months after buying the car if failed.
Anyway I think what hurts the domestics most is lack of r/d and not quality control. Workers can only build with what they are given. With good r/d you sort out problems before they hit the market (Focus). You make cars that are trendy (Pruis). You make cars that meet expectations. In short you make the cars that people want. This I think is hurting them much more than anything at the moment.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_levin&sid=appVFZKMUPL0
Scroll down to the middle of the article.
I think the only company not lobbying hard for keeping CAFE the same is Honda.
Oh also Honda introduced the First hybrid to the US market in 1999 with the Insight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Insight
The Prius didn't come out in the US till the next year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius
I think the Insights hybrid design is more elegant and better then Prius design.
Also remember GM made the EV1 in 1997 way before any of the false economy hybrids were in the US.
The whole EV1 program ended up being a disaster that I think GM could have handled much better but they did make it.
AFTER THEY WERE FORCED TO BY CALIFORNIA AT LEAST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV1
No. There is no proof that today's poor are worse off than their counterparts in 1950 or even 1980.
deminin: Take a little time and study these principles..you might develop a little different perspective on where this country is headed.
Take a little time to study history, including the spread of various consumer products among the people we classify as "poor," and you'll be better prepared to judge the true state of the union.
Wow, in both of my Accords, I have replaced EVERY power window motor and the master switch unit. This is in contrast to the Contour and 2 Escorts that didn't require a single motor or window switch replacement. I have also had to replace every bulb in the Accord and the Civic (which had manual windows). The Contour needed a new foglamp bulb shortly after I got it, and I replaced the cute little green lights in the doors when I upgraded the speakers, since they were apart anyway.