Figure there has been like 10 different models of Trailblazer over the years and now a dozen different Tahoe copies and two Camry clones don't seem like much of a big deal...
If it was 20 Silverado trucks, the press would say it was 200,000.
Forget the press. Watch CNN and get the "true facts".
Not sure about NBC or MSNBC. Think it was NBC that staged and faked a Chevy pickup truck gas tank fire years ago.
An auto reporter for one of our large metro papers is biased toward American brands and constantly gets in jabs at Japanese brands such as calling them rice burners and other.
Well if you want to count the long wheel base models maybe but I wouldn't count those as different models.
Lets see you had Trailblazer with Chevy, 9-7X for SAAB, Envoy for GMC, Rainer for Buick, Isuzu had one don't know what it was called and I think that was them all.
Choice of going with serviceable versus non-serviceable battery has nothing to do with how vendors are treated. Are you saying that Ford likes Motorcraft (supplies batteries) better than, and gives preferential treatment to it compared to, other vendors supplying other parts?
That was not my point, as far as I know, all were "maintenance free" batteries. My point was for low level items, they source on price or have the tier 1/integrator source it and provide it as a module.
The OEM wouldn't necessarily spec a light bulb, the supplier that develops the tail lamp assembly would pull information from the wire harness supplier (and vice versa) to pick a bulb. The OEM might help the supplier with costing (if they can buy the same bulb for all of their vehicles, the quantity of scale goes up and gives them a cost savings, but no OEM is willing to single source across their whole product line), but the supplier is usually left to pick sub-assemblies.
Do their quality standards change? Or, do they expect the best from every supplier?
If it changed, it wouldn't be much of a standard, no? "Best" is very subjective and undefined, the spec says what a certain widget should be able to do, how long it should do it for, and under what conditions. There are testing requirements to show that the spec is met.
>our large metro papers is biased toward American brands and constantly gets in jabs at Japanese brands such as calling them rice burners and other.
What paper and what auto reporter? He must be one of two or three in the country!!! Heheeee. It's usually the other way around. Maybe he had some bad experiences with his foreign cars.
getting a lemon is frequent and common with the big 3
Funny, if I do a Google search for "lemon law Toyota" I get about the same number of hits as I do for "lemon law General Motors." Ford's a lot higher, but Kia and Hyundai hit numbers are lower. Doesn't prove much of anything but I don't think getting a lemon is frequent or common with any make currently available in NA. Maybe you have a link that shows otherwise?
And they revolutionized the industry in a positive way with their hybrids.
I think this has you blinded from what else Toyota does. They are now building the biggest gas guzzling 1/2 ton trucks on the planet. If they wanted to maintain that green image they like to flaunt they would have built a 1/2 ton PU that gets great mileage.
You are so wrong about the suppliers. They would say nothing to jeopardize their deal with Toyota. Including taking the blame for something they are not at fault for. Did they mention the supplier's name that built these so called defective camshafts. Not in any article I read. They just blamed it on A supplier and Toyota lover's bought it hook line and sinker.
I am glad that Toyota is building their trucks in the USA. I wish that we would tax every vehicle they import from outside of America.
A quick Google got me a website (link ) that seems to list cars/models affected by lemon law. Not sure about its accuracy but if we lived with the data it provides, here is how list would look for models that have been in US market over last ten years (I couldn't find data for Pontiac and didn't bother to include Oldsmobile and some Mercury vehicles are included under Ford but not all).
Honda had the fewest with 111 total, followed by Saturn at 150, Cadillac at 163 and others. Toyota had 207.
A former poster worked for the Northeast's largest lemon-law firm (based in suburban Philadelphia). He said that Honda/Acura generated the smallest number of cases, while Daimler/Chrysler, VW and Hyundai/Kia were the worst.
When I asked him which manufacturers had the best quality, he again said that Honda was the best, along with Toyota. The Germans and the Koreans were the worst, with the domestics in the middle. GM has the best quality among the domestics.
Interestingly, whenever I speak to a mechanic, I ask this question (the frequent go-rounds on this site over "which is best" have spurred my curiousity). They all reply roughly the same way:
Honda and Toyota really are tops for quality.
German cars drive great, but can be very troublesome, especially as they rack up the miles. Avoid VWs at all costs.
The domestics are in the middle, with GM the best among the domestics, although Ford has made dramatic improvements. Both GM and Ford are much better than they were 10 years ago. It is best to avoid Chryslers.
I would break that down more by ranking the Germans like this.
Merc or BMW can be both be the best depending on the year you are talking about. More recent model years go to BMW though since Mercedes has not down well recently. Certain BMWs though IMO are just as reliable as the Japanese vehicles even considering the extra tech in them. 528i and 530i sedans would fit that criteria.
Audi would be number three and VW is in Last by a long, long way.
"You are so wrong about the suppliers. They would say nothing to jeopardize their deal with Toyota. Including taking the blame for something they are not at fault for. Did they mention the supplier's name that built these so called defective camshafts. Not in any article I read."
Why would they name the supplier? There has been plenty of faulty castings/parts over the years and you never hear about the supplier.
ex. I used to work with a woman who had an A-arm snap on her brand new Trailblazer back in 2003. She was on the highway when it happened and luckily wasn't in a serious wreck becasue of it... This was before GM told every owner not to drive their vehicle, have it immediately towed. Turns out GM recalled the vehicles for defective A-arms. Never heard a thing about the supplier at fault.
"They just blamed it on A supplier and Toyota lover's bought it hook line and sinker."
Bull. Think about what your saying. Do you honestly believe that every parts supplier out there has a foundry in their backyard producing metal for them? No.
As far as Toyota is concerned, they are receiving a Camshaft that has been machined, forged, and meets dimensional specs. It will also be shipped with material certs stating that the material used is "x", that's all.
It is up to Toyotas supplier to make sure that the raw material that is being used to make said Camshafts with is certified and defect free (to within limits of cost and availability). Even then, if the material has internal stresses, which I believe is the case in both those 20 camshafts and the TB A-arms, it is the suppliers fault for not doing the proper metallugical testing.
Trust me, I work for a company supplying large ceramic optics to government contracts. These are flight parts, either in aircraft or in space. We go though rigorous testing to qualify our parts before they go out the door. Which makes us a supplier...
It's not our customers fault if an optic cracks if used as designed.
Anyone think Toyota can and will just LIE INDISCRIMINATELY to the American public when it comes to safety of their vehicles?
I don't think safety was mentioned at all. We are talking about defective parts and whether the supplier would go to the press as you have said and say anything. I believe they would just shut up and let the automaker say what they want to say to protect their own interest.
Because this is a buy American thread, I should ask the question. Were the camshafts MADE IN THE USA, or cheap Japanese imports? :P
I agree with you on suppliers responsiblity. My question. Did GM blast out to all the news media that the A arms problem they were recalling was a suppliers fault? Or did they just fix the problem without making excuses?
I don't know is it? Out of 5 GM trucks I only received a recall on one. The bolts in the passenger seat of my 1993 3/4 ton PU were too soft and they changed them. They did not blame anyone. Just fixed the problem that I did not know I had.
VWs are very handsome cars, but EVERYONE I know who owns one not only complains about the quality, but the dealer service.
I'd revise that to good quality poor reliability. My uncle has a 2000 Passat GLX with over 140k miles. He loves the car, but it has had some issues. The reason he likes it is due to how solid the car still feels and how nice the interior looks and how well it's held together.
I've owned one VW only for a little over a year w/o any issues. Granted I didn't have it very long. MY BIL had a 00 Jetta and an 03 Passat with no issues. Once again he kept both of his 3 years before getting rid them, so that still isn't very long.
Dealer service can be spotty. I know my uncle stopped taking his Passat to the dealer and found a local shop that specializes in European cars. My BIL purchased his from a VW dealer that also sold BMW, so service was good. I bought my Jetta from a dealer that also sold Mazda and Volvo, and they were as good as any other dealer I've dealt with.
My sister had the same love/hate relationship with her 2000 New Beetle. Poor reliability and awful dealer.
Both got better after a few years and 100,000+ miles. The NOVA dealer improved so much either the owner changed or VW came over and read them the riot act.
She still wound up buying one of those Indiana made cars when it was time to replace it. A Subaru to tide her over until the MINI of her dreams comes along.
I believe they mentioned there was a batch of bad A-arms that came from their supplier. I tried fishing through some old articles, but there are a bazillion links to Trailblazer topics...
I remember it was a safety issue and owners were told to have their vehicles towed to the dealer on a "DO Not Drive" notice. They kinda had no room for excuses at that point.
My buddy had steering shaft replacments on both his old Sierras and his wifes current Suburban. Right around the 40k mark they apparently get really sloppy and need replacement. Don't know if they are susceptible to full on failure, maybe they're just a nuissance.
He also had rear axle whining on his first Sierra and all of them required brake jobs early which is understandable being large trucks (with rear drums on the back )
My Suburban was actually a 1998 model sold as a 1999 in June of 1998. It never had a recall of any kind. Just before the 7 year extended warranty was up I had the AC pump replaced as it was making a rattling noise. No other problems in 7.5 years of ownership. I wish I had kept it and not bought this 2005 GMC Hybrid. I thought I needed a PU truck. The Suburban was so much more practical.
We have a Subbie and a VW dealership in the autogroup. According to people who have worked at both stores the customers share a lot of things in common.
I forgot about the steering shaft (ISS). Yeah, I had that replaced too, as did my wife's previous '01 Impala. It was very annoying and seemed to be an issue on many GM vehicles.
I didn’t see a question there. I already knew what you were expecting. After all, after saying this “They [Toyota] just blamed it on A supplier and Toyota lover's bought it hook line and sinker.”
You followed it up with this... “They [GM] did not blame anyone. Just fixed the problem that I did not know I had.”
So, asking this question... “Did GM blast out to all the news media that the A arms problem they were recalling was a suppliers fault? Or did they just fix the problem without making excuses?”
... was simply a formality to make a point that unlike Toyota, GM is not a company that makes excuses and blames suppliers. Either that, or you were completely clueless about how GM handles its recalls.
My link and proof is the high rate of repeat sales for Honda and Toyota vs. the high rate of lost repeat customers for the Big 3.
Not every lemon falls under the strict state "lemon laws." Nor does every lemon get successfully settled as a lemon. Nor does every lemon get claimed as a lemon, some people just put up with it. That is.... until they buy their next car.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I was pretty much in the dark as to the way GM handles recalls. Five GM trucks ONE RECALL for a bolt that that should have been hardened to carry the weight of the passenger seat.
So yes, my experience is limited with recalls the last 20 years. My original comments were the fact that the top guys at Toyota are making excuses about their new darling Tundra not being up to snuff. Sent out on the customers with POOR QC. No recall just excuses.
I will say my loyalty is drifting away with the direction of the newer GM trucks. Problem is I don't like any of the new trucks on the market. If I can get my price for this GMC hybrid PU I will buy an older beater truck.
The new Tundra is easily the 4th best half ton on the market. Quite a claim after being 5th best with the last version. Too bad the last version sold better.
Personally I think the company that brings a 1/2 ton diesel that gets at least 25 MPG real world to the showrooms will jump into first place. GM has the only 1/2 ton V8 that will break 20 MPG on the highway. So they are the truck to beat. Also the biggest sellers currently.
It probably was actually 20,000 Tundra trucks, but when something goes wrong with Toyota, the press dramatically deflates the number. If it was 20 Silverado trucks, the press would say it was 200,000.
Repeat sales would be a good metric - don't see a link outlining such off-hand yet - maybe JD Powers?
Ok, can't find a source link but this data supposedly comes from JD Powers:
"Repeat sales" is a good metric. J.D. Powers article said that it had 138,000+ new vehicle buyers for this report.
Another metric, not quite the same as an "actual" repeat sale is Consumer Reports, April, 2007 issue, Page 11. It asked question of owners/leasors, "would you get this car if you had to do it all over again?".
CR said that it received 400,000 responses and that 45 models received the highest rating of 80 percent or more which it classifies as "Most Satisfying". It further said that domestic models increased from 4 in previous survey to 7 in most recent survey. Japanese models fell from 31 to 26. European increased from 9 to 11. A Korean model is on list for first time.
For "Least Satisfying" models, meaning 50 percent or less of owners said they would definitely buy or lease them again, 23 of 28 models were domestic brands. 12 of those 23 were GM brands. The 5 "foreign" models were from Mazda, Mitsubishi, VW.
Our first choice should be US brand vehicles built in the USA. Second; If nothing appeals to us a foreign nameplate built in the USA. Third: Domestic brand built in Canada or Mexico.
If none of those vehicles fit your needs keep what you got till they do.
Keep as many of our shrinking green backs at home as possible.
If you don't give a hoot, buy a Chery coming to a WalMart near you very soon.
Comments
The Avalon is too different of a car. It is a platform mate not a rebadge and there is a big difference.
Even then you are talking two vehicles not three or four multiple rebadges like GM has.
Ever hear of the term A stock and "B" stock? Happens all the time.
Figure there has been like 10 different models of Trailblazer over the years and now a dozen different Tahoe copies and two Camry clones don't seem like much of a big deal...
Forget the press. Watch CNN and get the "true facts".
Not sure about NBC or MSNBC. Think it was NBC that staged and faked a Chevy pickup truck gas tank fire years ago.
An auto reporter for one of our large metro papers is biased toward American brands and constantly gets in jabs at Japanese brands such as calling them rice burners and other.
Lets see you had Trailblazer with Chevy, 9-7X for SAAB, Envoy for GMC, Rainer for Buick, Isuzu had one don't know what it was called and I think that was them all.
That was not my point, as far as I know, all were "maintenance free" batteries. My point was for low level items, they source on price or have the tier 1/integrator source it and provide it as a module.
The OEM wouldn't necessarily spec a light bulb, the supplier that develops the tail lamp assembly would pull information from the wire harness supplier (and vice versa) to pick a bulb. The OEM might help the supplier with costing (if they can buy the same bulb for all of their vehicles, the quantity of scale goes up and gives them a cost savings, but no OEM is willing to single source across their whole product line), but the supplier is usually left to pick sub-assemblies.
Do their quality standards change? Or, do they expect the best from every supplier?
If it changed, it wouldn't be much of a standard, no? "Best" is very subjective and undefined, the spec says what a certain widget should be able to do, how long it should do it for, and under what conditions. There are testing requirements to show that the spec is met.
What paper and what auto reporter? He must be one of two or three in the country!!! Heheeee. It's usually the other way around. Maybe he had some bad experiences with his foreign cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Funny, if I do a Google search for "lemon law Toyota" I get about the same number of hits as I do for "lemon law General Motors." Ford's a lot higher, but Kia and Hyundai hit numbers are lower. Doesn't prove much of anything but I don't think getting a lemon is frequent or common with any make currently available in NA. Maybe you have a link that shows otherwise?
I think this has you blinded from what else Toyota does. They are now building the biggest gas guzzling 1/2 ton trucks on the planet. If they wanted to maintain that green image they like to flaunt they would have built a 1/2 ton PU that gets great mileage.
You are so wrong about the suppliers. They would say nothing to jeopardize their deal with Toyota. Including taking the blame for something they are not at fault for. Did they mention the supplier's name that built these so called defective camshafts. Not in any article I read. They just blamed it on A supplier and Toyota lover's bought it hook line and sinker.
I am glad that Toyota is building their trucks in the USA. I wish that we would tax every vehicle they import from outside of America.
Honda had the fewest with 111 total, followed by Saturn at 150, Cadillac at 163 and others. Toyota had 207.
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Not unlike the Ford Exploder rollover debacle. Who do you think the blame lies with? Who did Ford blame?
When I asked him which manufacturers had the best quality, he again said that Honda was the best, along with Toyota. The Germans and the Koreans were the worst, with the domestics in the middle. GM has the best quality among the domestics.
Interestingly, whenever I speak to a mechanic, I ask this question (the frequent go-rounds on this site over "which is best" have spurred my curiousity). They all reply roughly the same way:
Honda and Toyota really are tops for quality.
German cars drive great, but can be very troublesome, especially as they rack up the miles. Avoid VWs at all costs.
The domestics are in the middle, with GM the best among the domestics, although Ford has made dramatic improvements. Both GM and Ford are much better than they were 10 years ago. It is best to avoid Chryslers.
I would break that down more by ranking the Germans like this.
Merc or BMW can be both be the best depending on the year you are talking about. More recent model years go to BMW though since Mercedes has not down well recently. Certain BMWs though IMO are just as reliable as the Japanese vehicles even considering the extra tech in them. 528i and 530i sedans would fit that criteria.
Audi would be number three and VW is in Last by a long, long way.
If you think so, please so on a campaign against them and get criminal charges filed.
There are regulatory agencies to report to in the USA.
Telling lies would cost them sales which would not sit well the the board members.
Sure, carmakers have lied to the public before.
But in today's "information NOW" age, that would be a stupid move.
Toyota might be a lot of things, but STUPID is not one of them.
Why would they name the supplier? There has been plenty of faulty castings/parts over the years and you never hear about the supplier.
ex. I used to work with a woman who had an A-arm snap on her brand new Trailblazer back in 2003. She was on the highway when it happened and luckily wasn't in a serious wreck becasue of it... This was before GM told every owner not to drive their vehicle, have it immediately towed. Turns out GM recalled the vehicles for defective A-arms. Never heard a thing about the supplier at fault.
"They just blamed it on A supplier and Toyota lover's bought it hook line and sinker."
Bull. Think about what your saying. Do you honestly believe that every parts supplier out there has a foundry in their backyard producing metal for them? No.
As far as Toyota is concerned, they are receiving a Camshaft that has been machined, forged, and meets dimensional specs. It will also be shipped with material certs stating that the material used is "x", that's all.
It is up to Toyotas supplier to make sure that the raw material that is being used to make said Camshafts with is certified and defect free (to within limits of cost and availability). Even then, if the material has internal stresses, which I believe is the case in both those 20 camshafts and the TB A-arms, it is the suppliers fault for not doing the proper metallugical testing.
Trust me, I work for a company supplying large ceramic optics to government contracts. These are flight parts, either in aircraft or in space. We go though rigorous testing to qualify our parts before they go out the door. Which makes us a supplier...
It's not our customers fault if an optic cracks if used as designed.
I don't think safety was mentioned at all. We are talking about defective parts and whether the supplier would go to the press as you have said and say anything. I believe they would just shut up and let the automaker say what they want to say to protect their own interest.
Because this is a buy American thread, I should ask the question. Were the camshafts MADE IN THE USA, or cheap Japanese imports? :P
One friend took his troublesome Passat (electrical problems - the worst kind!) to an independent mechanic who specializes in VWs.
My friend asked, "What can I do to get this car to work?"
The mechanic's reply: "At this point, I'd give up and buy either a Toyota or a Honda, unless you really love this car."
I'd revise that to good quality poor reliability. My uncle has a 2000 Passat GLX with over 140k miles. He loves the car, but it has had some issues. The reason he likes it is due to how solid the car still feels and how nice the interior looks and how well it's held together.
I've owned one VW only for a little over a year w/o any issues. Granted I didn't have it very long. MY BIL had a 00 Jetta and an 03 Passat with no issues. Once again he kept both of his 3 years before getting rid them, so that still isn't very long.
Dealer service can be spotty. I know my uncle stopped taking his Passat to the dealer and found a local shop that specializes in European cars. My BIL purchased his from a VW dealer that also sold BMW, so service was good. I bought my Jetta from a dealer that also sold Mazda and Volvo, and they were as good as any other dealer I've dealt with.
Hmm, that's Surprising. I've had at least two on my Suburban. Something with the brakes (can't remember), and fuel pump wiring harness.
My sister had the same love/hate relationship with her 2000 New Beetle. Poor reliability and awful dealer.
Both got better after a few years and 100,000+ miles. The NOVA dealer improved so much either the owner changed or VW came over and read them the riot act.
She still wound up buying one of those Indiana made cars when it was time to replace it. A Subaru to tide her over until the MINI of her dreams comes along.
I remember it was a safety issue and owners were told to have their vehicles towed to the dealer on a "DO Not Drive" notice. They kinda had no room for excuses at that point.
He also had rear axle whining on his first Sierra and all of them required brake jobs early which is understandable being large trucks (with rear drums on the back
I could see that - VWs were on the forefront of heated cloth seats and that always impressed me. I'm a little ambivalent about my Outback.
I'm curious to see the new devil dog Caravans.
"GM said the defective parts which were not made to specifications by a supplier" (How about I provide you with a link ?)
gagrice, "Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?" #4413, 18 Jul 2007 1:35 pm
Good point.
<lover's bought it hook line and sinker.
The green image persists.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
“They [Toyota] just blamed it on A supplier and Toyota lover's bought it hook line and sinker.”
You followed it up with this...
“They [GM] did not blame anyone. Just fixed the problem that I did not know I had.”
So, asking this question...
“Did GM blast out to all the news media that the A arms problem they were recalling was a suppliers fault? Or did they just fix the problem without making excuses?”
... was simply a formality to make a point that unlike Toyota, GM is not a company that makes excuses and blames suppliers. Either that, or you were completely clueless about how GM handles its recalls.
Which of the two is it?
Not every lemon falls under the strict state "lemon laws." Nor does every lemon get successfully settled as a lemon. Nor does every lemon get claimed as a lemon, some people just put up with it. That is.... until they buy their next car.
Haven't spotted any Calvin/Tundra decals yet.
Repeat sales would be a good metric - don't see a link outlining such off-hand yet - maybe JD Powers?
Ok, can't find a source link but this data supposedly comes from JD Powers:
J.D. Powers’ Customer Retention By Brand
Toyota enjoys three of the top 5 spots; Honda and BMW are 3 and 4, and then we have Caddy coming in at the #6 spot.
So yes, my experience is limited with recalls the last 20 years. My original comments were the fact that the top guys at Toyota are making excuses about their new darling Tundra not being up to snuff. Sent out on the customers with POOR QC. No recall just excuses.
Just by reading a handful of articles there they guy/guys that run it don't know jack about cars.
Toyota Ranks Highest in Retaining New-Vehicle Buyers
There's that press again! It's a conspiracy!
Ok, can't find a source link but this data supposedly comes from JD Powers:
"Repeat sales" is a good metric. J.D. Powers article said that it had 138,000+ new vehicle buyers for this report.
Another metric, not quite the same as an "actual" repeat sale is Consumer Reports, April, 2007 issue, Page 11. It asked question of owners/leasors, "would you get this car if you had to do it all over again?".
CR said that it received 400,000 responses and that 45 models received the highest rating of 80 percent or more which it classifies as "Most Satisfying". It further said that domestic models increased from 4 in previous survey to 7 in most recent survey. Japanese models fell from 31 to 26. European increased from 9 to 11. A Korean model is on list for first time.
For "Least Satisfying" models, meaning 50 percent or less of owners said they would definitely buy or lease them again, 23 of 28 models were domestic brands. 12 of those 23 were GM brands. The 5 "foreign" models were from Mazda, Mitsubishi, VW.
The best advertising your donations can buy?
Our first choice should be US brand vehicles built in the USA.
Second;
If nothing appeals to us a foreign nameplate built in the USA.
Third:
Domestic brand built in Canada or Mexico.
If none of those vehicles fit your needs keep what you got till they do.
Keep as many of our shrinking green backs at home as possible.
If you don't give a hoot, buy a Chery coming to a WalMart near you very soon.