Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

bumpy

If none of those vehicles fit your needs keep what you got till they do.

That would be a very long wait for some of us.

robertsmx

A: Start with wasting time dissecting a car to see where the components came from, settle on a lower quality car after the intensive "research" and, finally, spend some time justifying the choice in automotive forums. :P

The Bottom line: Your money and your time are worth crap.

:shades:

gagrice

I would say the day is approaching very quickly when your time and your money will not be worth crap. Hang on to your Gold because your Toyota, Honda and GM Car will be worthless.

andres3

Should be done in the following manner

1. Max Horsepower to Max fuel economy ratio (weighted towards HP for those who want performance or weighted towards MPG for those wanting economy)
2. Reliability/dependability history (actually tied with #1).
3. Handling
4. Safety
5. Value (bang for the buck)
6. Part of #5 (resale value) important due to bad drivers that will total your vehicle before your ready to rid yourself of it.
7. Where it is built (I've had good luck with Japanese and German models thus far).

british_rover

I just think you should buy what you like.

You people all make it too complicated.

anythngbutgm

That would actually be a good topic for the forum

"What do you find most important when making your purchase?"

chuckhoy

My first decision is narrowing down exactly what i want in my next car. When we got the Outlook, our starting point was: 3 rows of seating, seats at least 7, not a SUV.

We were left with minivans and large crossovers.

Then you make a list of all vehicles that meet those initial criteria. We went to dealerships to look at the cars and took short test-drives. Then we eliminated ones we did not like. The reason did not matter much because there were enough models to choose from. She thinks it is ugly, poof gone. I think the 3rd row room is a joke, poof gone.

Then you are left with a few that warrant more extensive test-driving and poking around in. Then you can start really crunching numbers.

gagrice

If every one was that thorough GM would be selling a lot more vehicles. Too many buyers listen to their friends or read some rag, and never test drive the car they are spending $1000s to own.

chuckhoy

Picking out the car was a 2 month ordeal too. Most people don't take that amount of time to pick something out. It also took longer because we were looking is a segment that we had never looked into before. We have always been compact-midsize car people.

I am already plotting my next car purchase. Something small and fun that can fit 5 in a pinch. But, alas, that is a couple of years down the road.

cooterbfd

5. Value (bang for the buck)
6. Part of #5 (resale value) important due to bad drivers that will total your vehicle before your ready to rid yourself of it.

Now, are you talking resale value vs. MSRP or actual price paid??

Value, to me, would seem to eliminate ANY car that ran on premium unleaded or an OHC eng. w/ a timing belt, as that is an expensive proposition.

lilengineerboy

Value, to me, would seem to eliminate ANY car that ran on premium unleaded or an OHC eng. w/ a timing belt, as that is an expensive proposition.

$700 every 100k doesn't bother me, overall.

robertsmx

are you talking resale value vs. MSRP or actual price paid??

It doesn't matter. If you look at intellichoice's numbers (cost of ownership over five years), the difference in operating expense generally is far greater than the difference in price paid at even invoice to MSRP (less than 10%). Unless, the automaker is basically giving the car away. But then, there is a reason they are. Nobody is buying them. And if you happen to be one who does, then you might be saving a few bucks initially, but that doesn't guarantee savings in the longer term.

That said, mainstream cars can be easily negotiated for price around invoice.

Value, to me, would seem to eliminate ANY car that ran on premium unleaded or an OHC eng. w/ a timing belt, as that is an expensive proposition.

May be to you it does. But $350 every 100K miles is hardly worth worrying about if you look at total cost of ownership of cars over that span. Just to give you an idea, one would spend $12K paying to burn gasoline alone (at 25 mpg, $3/gallon).

Interestingly enough, premium versus regular has a greater impact since premium grade usually costs 6-8% more, but not enough to worry those luxury car buyers. They started with "luxury" after all. Have you ever calculated cost of ownership over 100K miles/8 years?

Besides, OHC or not, most cars now have timing chain (which doesn't guarantee a "perfect life").

cooterbfd

$700 every 100k doesn't bother me, overall

More like 60k. If you aren't careful, with some engines, you wind up buying a cyl. head, and that wouldn't be covered under warranty if the timing belt went, as that is considered routine maintenance. My bro-in-law's Kia let go at 50K, and they said "sorry it's routine maint. $550 please". My '99 Park Ave hasn't cost me $550 since I bought it 5 yrs ago.

cooterbfd

Besides, OHC or not, most cars now have timing chain (which doesn't guarantee a "perfect life")

It may not guarantee a perfect life, but they DO give an indication when they are going to fail. Not sure about an OHC chain, but on an OHV eng., if you put a timing light on it, the timing mark will jump all over the place, indicating that the chain has stretched, and is in need of replacement. Belts usually just break, leaving you stranded.

stever

I'm due for a timing belt in my Outback at 60k and I'm not looking forward to it. Plugs are due too, which is a bit irritating. I'm 15k overdue for a new belt in my Quest but it's not an interference engine so I'm ok with the stranding risk on that one.

Premium fuel is a bigger deal killer for me though.

Since oil just gets contaminated but doesn't wear out, I'd like to see GM/Ford and/or Chrysler come out with an oil system that just requires changing the filter every 20k (it can come with loaded with a fresh additive package). Higher warranties and fewer maintenance needs would drive me right back into an "American" car.

british_rover

Since oil just gets contaminated but doesn't wear out, I'd like to see GM/Ford and/or Chrysler come out with an oil system that just requires changing the filter every 20k (it can come with loaded with a fresh additive package). Higher warranties and fewer maintenance needs would drive me right back into an "American" car.

Err synthetic oil doesn't wear about but conventional oil does. Even the most high tech conventional oil will lose stability over time and the additive packages wear out too. I know a couple of people using high grade synthetics and multiple oil filters on their vehicles. They can go without oil changes for the most part and just change the primary and secondary filters every 20,000 or 30,000 miles. They simply top off the oil as some is burned off and then top off what oil is lost for the filter change.

It is still recommended to have oil analysis done every 10,000 miles or so to make sure nothing strange is happening.

stever

Debatable, but you get my point, and I'd pay extra for synthetic if it lasted for the duration of my car ownership.

lilengineerboy

Honda listed their timing belt replacement interval at 105k.

My bro-in-law's Kia let go at 50K, and they said "sorry it's routine maint. $550 please". My '99 Park Ave hasn't cost me $550 since I bought it 5 yrs ago.

It sounds like you both believe in differed maintenance :P

carguy58

I am glad that Toyota is building their trucks in the USA. I wish that we would tax every vehicle they import from outside of America.

By saying They I think you mean Toyota. In my opinion if you want to tax Toyota for every vehicle that Toyota imports to the US than we should place a tax on every import that comes to the US and yes that applies to GM and Ford who build vehicles in Mexico but import them here to the US. However, I don;t think we should put tax an automakers cars that come from Canada though because their like our neighbors and canada is a country that belongs to the continent of North America as well.

gagrice

Mexico is just as much North America as Canada. I am basically referring to Japan that places HUGE import taxes on cars from other countries. It should be fair and equal. Japan has gotten a free ride long enough.

gagrice

While we just roll over and play dead with Japans excessive tariffs, the big dog is getting tough.

China Slaps Punitive Tariffs on Japan Goods
Japan and China dug in their heels in an escalating trade war between the giant neighbors, as China has announced to implement punitive tariffs on cars, mobile phones and airconditioners imported from Japan, beginning June 22.

However, Japan Government seems intransigient, as it shows no urgency to put an end to a war triggered by Japan's levying of excessive tariffs on three kinds of Chinese-made farm products in April.

Japanese Trade Minister Takeo Hiranuma said on June 22 that Tokyo had no intention of lifting tariffs imposed in April on those farm imports.

In retaliation against those curbs, China decided on Thursday to impose 100 percent tariffs on 60 varieties of products from a range of three classes of Japanese goods -- mobile phones, vehicles and air conditioners.

There goes Toyota's bid for World domination.

Maybe we should do the same!

maple2

than we should place a tax on every import that comes to the US and yes that applies to GM and Ford who build vehicles in Mexico but import them here to the US. However, I don;t think we should put tax an automakers cars that come from Canada though because their like our neighbors and canada is a country that belongs to the continent of North America as well.

Wow I guess geography was not a strong subject for you eh? when I was in school Mexico was part of North America

m1miata

You want China to slap a 100% tariff on cars we sell to them? Ya know, trade wars / tariffs get ugly fast. As for selling cars to Japan, I have my doubts as to many cars fitting their needs there. Maybe the Cadillacs for the high ranking and rich. Most people drive those little funny cars there, you know the circus cars like the smaller Scions. If we imposed tariffs on Japan and China we get less product choices and in the case of China massive runaway inflation on any goods we may still have to offer here. Best think over all options and the results of taking certain actions first. Say we get tough with China, which could happen for whatever reason, and they block sales of Buicks and other GM cars in China, you don't think that would hurt big time? And you realize when things get really tough, as in people starving, the words World War come to mind. Best when everyone around the World is employed and money is being made everywhere.
Loren

gagrice

I did not say China. Only countries that impose tariffs on us. China has imposed 100% on Japan because Japan imposed tariffs on China. Seems fair to me. We have given Japan a free ride for 60 years. Time to level the playing field.

We sell vehicles to all the rest of the world. It is the tariffs that keep us out of Japan. We do have many small cars that are very fuel efficient being sold in the EU.

m1miata

That is a nice list there. I think what the first sentence should say however, is that here is a list of things which are important to me, when I am looking to buy an automobile. The order of importance may be different, or in some cases, an item totally unimportant to another person.
Would not argue that the list is not a good one, or not correct in any fashion, it is just not everyone's priorities. Ya know, where a car is built is a tough one. I got an Ohio built Honda. Perhaps one could argue that all things built in Japan seem to work well, but the other side of the coin is American jobs. Most of the content is USA and the engine and car was assembled right here in the States. That should be a good thing. Of course if it falls apart in a couple years, I will feel differently about it. For now, let's call it a good thing. My Corolla was assembled in Calif. but was mostly Japan parts, like the engine. It was reliable. I did have a Datsun/Nissan which was Japan made, no doubt and perfect. Let's leave item #7 as one of those, I see your point, but for the good of USA workers AND current good products being produced here in the States for reliability, as being worth a gamble to return to America for domestic cars, and Japan or German cars built here. OK? And this is coming from someone which got burned by some pretty so-so to crummy domestic products a few decades ago.
Loren

m1miata

No-no, you miss the point. Once the whole process gets going, it is unstoppable. You just said, because Japan imposed on them. Yes -yes, soon everyone is pissed off and sparks start to fly.

I am not familiar with any tariffs which Japan has in place. What exactly is the background on these tariffs. Which cars would we sell there BTW?
Well there are smallish Opels I guess, but gosh they have a gazillion small cars which are Japan makes. So many, I think even Honda is not selling all that many there, now are they?
Loren

stever

From what I can find, Japan has a 0% tariff on motor vehicles. The EU has a blanket 10% tariff and the US has a 25% tariff on SUVs and trucks. (link)

This report focuses on currency manipulation as the main culprit in the trade imbalance.

Statement of The Automotive Trade Policy Council

This is an interesting summary of a recent WSJ story:

Japan Considers Seeking U.S. Trade Agreement and the source article in the WSJ mentions a 2.5% US tariff on Japanese cars.

m1miata

No, the timing belt should be covered. In California it is something like 103 or is it 105K miles in which the manufacturer is responsible for the timing chain lasting. And what is a normal cost and couple hundred to replace it?

Hope you are changing out your radiator fluid a time or two since 1999. Be sure to have it flushed. Yeap, the old gal is pretty reliable I bet. Only thing which comes to mind is the intact manifold, and changing the coolant ever so often may help in that problem from ever occurring. How is your air conditioning doing?
Loren

imidazol97

YouTube commercials from FreePress link

gagrice

I was just remembering an article about the Lexus kick-off in Japan. The article said the reason that Cadillac was not a big seller like BMW & MB was the tariff that Japan imposed on the US auto industry. Unfortunately I cannot find that article. There are many articles saying the Japanese use tariffs to protect Japanese jobs. There is also the accusation that Japan blocks US automakers from the dealer network in Japan. That may or may not be factual.

imidazol97

There was talk in one of the discussions about how Japan used the tariffs or fees under another name to block imports. There also are all kinds of restrictions on what can be imported and how. I recall there was a restriction on something, oranges or tomatoes, and they wouldn't let them in if they didn't meet certain requirements and I believe size was one. The restrictions were meant to keep out competitive imports.

I recall talking a visiting Japanese youngster who indicated that dumping of the products Japan did in the late 80s and early 90s was okay because they don't have raw materials and they had to manufacture things. (That was the answer.) But I was stunned at the sense of entitlement that he felt.

robertsmx

Provide link(s) to your claims. That will help make your case about discrimination against US companies. Until then, it is all hypothetical.

robertsmx

Instead of being discriminatory, if US must impose import tarrifs, it should have a universal definition. Anything that is not manufactured and assembled within the USA gets it, be it from China, Japan, India, Australia, Mexico, Brazil, Canada, England, Germany, Sweden, Yugoslavia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Kuwait... you name it.

And then we can wait and watch rebuttals from others.

chuckhoy

I, personally, dislike all forms of tariffs because they interfere with free trade and cause artificially high prices.

But, because we live in an imperfect world, I prefer reciprocal tariffs. You hit my exports with high tariffs, I hit yours with high tariffs as well. You have no tariffs, neither do I. I know this is simplistic and there are a bazillion ways to make it complicated, but this type of model works for me. I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into specifics.

I have also heard that Honda and Toyota were heavily subsidized by the Japanese government for quite a long time. Is this true? When did it stop (if it has stopped)?

andres3

I have no problem with encouraging people to buy US-built Honda and Toyota products.

That is why it was at the bottom or end of my list of important things to consider. I'm not entirely convinced the Ohio built Honda's are as well-built as the Japanese versions. However, the gap is not drastic, your talking about perfection vs. near perfection, not apples and oranges. Your Ohio built Honda will not fall apart after a few years, because of the design and engineering and quality parts. It's more assembly issues when brand new, like rattles when it's brand new.....

Nothing major, just minor. By placing it at the bottom of my list, I meant to convey that it is not important, but could be a deciding factor (for me) if faced with a tough choice.

stever

Those commercials should hold me for a few months.... :shades:

gagrice

Trunk Monkey, don't leave home without him....

imidazol97

>you're talking about perfection vs. near perfection,

Your overexuberance for Honda always makes me laugh. You drive an Audi/VW.

imidazol97

I could see lots of uses for Trunk Monkey. I can see that would get attention as a series of commercials.

m1miata

I don't know. It seems that Honda & Toyota generate enough cash flow to be their own government
Loren

m1miata

Japan like Germany more than USA? Is that what you are saying. We sell less Cadillacs because BMW and MB will not cost as much due to tariff differences???

I just see no huge demand for ordinary cars from USA to be sold in Japan. They will be viewed as inferior and not sell, or will be too large. Now, say the Mustang or Camaro may be something, as they like the old American culture. Sadly most of the new stuff looks plain. You know what I mean, an Impala or Malibu looks like all the rest, and no longer like a good ol' Body by Fisher USA design.
Loren

andres3

Haha, I drive an Audi because Honda doesn't make a hatchback/sportback/wagon type vehicle anymore that is larger than the tiny Fit.

Also, I wanted something more truly sporty. Honda is great A to B transportation. And by great I mean the best of the best for economical transportation, but they are not in the same league as Audi. Now.... Acura... that's another story.

And my exuberance comes from my experience with the '03 Accord Coupe V6! And semi-direct experience with
'92 Civic Hatchback DX and '05 & '07 Civic EX's. And let's not forget the parents' '82 Accord that kept on ticking after taking a licking (50 MPH rear-end crash). It ran still for weeks after that.

robertsmx

If buying decision rests on ownership costs, the idea doesn't bode well against Hondas and Toyotas. You could use numbers from Intellichoice. Or Edmunds' own TCO (5 years/75K miles), the costs sorted best to worst difference between TCO and MSRP for 2007 models:
MSRP/TCO/Difference
Accord LX 20.7/33.7/13.0
Camry LE 23.9/38.0/14.1
Accord SEV6 23.0/37.4/14.4
Altima 2.5S 21.5/36.3/14.8
Camry LEV6 26.6/41.4/14.8
Altima 3.5SE 28.4/44.1/15.7
Fusion SE 19.7/37.2/17.5
G6 20.4/38.4/18.0
Impala LT 24.6/42.7/18.1
Impala LS 21.8/40.3/18.5
Aura XR 27.0/45.5/18.5
Aura XE 22.9/41.5/18.6
Fusion SEV6 23.9/42.5/18.6
G6 GT 24.0/43.2/19.2

robertsmx

- Blame UAW
- Blame Tarrifs

What's next? Blame import brands for offering more exciting vehicles and being consistent about it, perhaps. :P

So, Cadillac doesn't do well in Japan. Then, why do European brands fare so well? Why doesn't Cadillac dominate US market? Acura isn't considered one of the major players in luxury market, but here is the reality. Per Automotive Fleet's mid-year registrations for 2007, Acura has sold more vehicles in retail (90,540 units) than Cadillac (87,215). Still tarrifs to be blamed?

gagrice

I will take a GM truck over any of those. The loss at resale is lower than any of the above listed. My cost to own has never been close to Edmund's TCO, because I always pay cash and have not had any repairs in close to 20 years owning 5 GM trucks. Two I sold after owning them over a year for more than I paid new. I bought right in Seattle and sold at a profit in Alaska. It can be done if you know the market. Try it with any of the above. All those cars will kill you the first year of ownership.

Now if I could just convince my wife the White Diamond Escalade is good looking. She hates the front end. She likes the ML320 CDI Mercedes made in Alabama. That is America, is it not?

gagrice

It is not quite as simple as that.

So, Cadillac doesn't do well in Japan.

In the 1990s the US threatened a 100% tariff on Acura, Lexus and Infiniti, which would have doubled the price of those luxury cars. They settled but we still got the sticky end of the sucker. The Japanese in their closed society made it near impossible for new dealerships to be established. BMW an MB have been the cars of choice in Japan for a very long time. That is the reason Toyota did not open Lexus dealerships till last year. They were afraid of failure. Their success is still not assured as Japanese with money prefer German cars. Cadillac never got a chance. It is not like opening a car dealership in Los Angeles.

robertsmx

Now if I could just convince my wife the White Diamond Escalade is good looking. She hates the front end. She likes the ML320 CDI Mercedes made in Alabama. That is America, is it not?

Would this be the same Alabama where Odyssey is made?

robertsmx

In the 1990s the US threatened a 100% tariff on Acura, Lexus and Infiniti, which would have doubled the price of those luxury cars. They settled but we still got the sticky end of the sucker.

It sounds pathetic to me that foreign makes need to be pulled down so domestic brands are more competitive.

stever

I think he's talking about the Alabama that makes Hyundais. Isuzu may be breaking ground there soon too.

robertsmx

Oh, that one!