When you throw in the new Tupelo Toyota plant next door, not to mention Nissan down in Jackson, and BMW in South Carolina, the tide of Southern automakers rolls on. :P
Of course the domestics led the way with Saturn in Tennessee.
I know you would like to only make it a one way street. That is the problem. I don't mind fair trade, when it is fair trade. If the Japanese see and drive the GM vehicle and pick the BMW fine. The problem is their closed society. It is not wide open free market as we have in the USA. We have put tariffs on a few things in the past. Only in retribution from other countries. Do you have any idea how tough it would be to open a Cadillac dealership in Tokyo? I can guarantee it is much easier for a Lexus dealer to open in NYC.
I say welcome to the industrial age. I do think we left them out at the turn of the century. I don't know if it was a Civil war thing or just logistics. Now the South gets all the latest high tech manufacturing and Detroit is stuck with the old stuff. Life is tough sometimes.
There is plenty of blame to go around in Detroit. Hopefully the parties will work together to get back on track.
I don't know why Cadillac and Lincoln cars do not sell at home. I know the Escalade beats all in its class for sales. GM as a whole has the SUV full sized market pretty weil tied up. How is that bad for them? At least they are best at some segments.
If Luxury equals expensive and rare then Cadillac and Lincoln will always be on the short end of the when it comes to this market when it comes to an import.
Cadillac now looks good, but their prices are too low. They need to slowly move up market a bit. Somehow GM has never managed to move Cadillac up market but on a whole despite being working man’s luxury they are not too bad off at the moment.
Lincoln, on the other hand looks old and dated. The town car and the mkz look they belong in the early 90ies. Ford just does not spend enough cash making sure it’s car line up is fresh, new, and competitive for the price.
Lincoln and Mercury may have to retire. Ford has limited resources for new development. I would like to see excellent product from platforms of Volvo or Mazda, as they have been doing, with some designs which have a bit more appeal style wise. Lose the big butt cars, and those high belt line look, which would break away from the new trend madness and return to style and grace. Have a Ford line and a Ford Premium line which would be sold at the former Mercury/Lincoln dealerships. Make say three or four great cars, and of course there trucks and be done with the rest. OK, keep the Crown Vic if it is still profitable. The last car in the World built on a frame, unless I am wrong? Loren
They are selling, just not well enough which they should. The point is, if even USA doesn't care about Cadillacs and Lincolns, why are we complaining about other markets? In those markets, the blame is being put on tarriffs (without substantiation on the claims), what is to blame "at home"?
They are selling, just not well enough which they should. The point is, if even USA doesn't care about Cadillacs and Lincolns, why are we complaining about other markets?
I'd say Cadillac's problem is the same as the rest of GM's. They sold to many troublesome and uncompetitive product for to long. I'd guess if you spent quite a bit of cash on a vehicle that turned out to be substandard, it would take a long time to get that person back. Odds are they may have gone to Lexus never to return.
The CTS seems decent and the new model looks to be very nice. The SRX could have been so much more if it wasn't priced so high and had a better interior from the start. I rarely see one. The new STS looks good, but it is competing in a touch market as is the CTS. Escalade has the goods, DTS's clientele is dying off and the Lucerne is probably a better buy.
Odds are they may have gone to Lexus never to return.
Not if they have to deal with Lexus after the warranty is up. They will look elsewhere. I would like to see a survey on customer service after the warranty is over. I would bet that Lexus drops to the bottom like a rock. Lexus is fortunate in the fact that they sell to fat cats that generally dump the car after 3 years. So they have a good dealer experience.
While I've never owned a Lexus, so I don't have any personal experience. But every study I've read ranks Lexus near the top in dealer experience and long term dependability.
After the so called "fat cats" dump there Lexus's after 3 years, it's not like they disappear. Lexus and Acura have a pretty impressive used car warranty program and look at how expensive a used Lexus is. People want them.
It's not like the experience with a Cadillac dealership is fun and inexpensive. A friend of mine just had to replace the transmission in his '98 Seville STS at 85k miles. He wasn't bragging about his experience with the dealership, other than the fact that he felt "bent over".
I have sold a ton out of warranty Lexus vehicles. They are one of the few vehicles we will sell out of warranty simply because their come back rate is so low.
In the past three years I can only think of one Lexus that we have had to bring back for work within our used car warranty period. Even that one was fairly minor as the O2 sensor just gave up the ghost.
You can say that Lexus are boring, uninspiring, soulless vehicles all day long and I will agree with you but you can't say they are unreliable.
My MIL has a 1999 Lexus RX300 that my FIL bought when it was 2 or 3 years old. He bought it from a police auction so it has the absolute worst history you can think of. I think it was seized from some drug dealer or something and was a little rough. He had a couple of grand of body work done to it and it looked like new.
She has 180,000 miles on it now and has only had two problems. The 02 sensors have been replaced once which is to be expected.
Now the other problem was entirely her fault. I serviced the transmission for her once when I had my shop and that was at 120,000 miles. The service had never been done before then and was never done after either. It really didn't surprise me that the transmission failed at 160,000 miles or so. It was replaced with a rebuilt one for 2,500 dollars or so and has been fine ever since.
I speak from experience. Our LS400 has not had any major failures in 18 years and 90k miles. However it has nickel and dimed us to death. At least until we found an HONEST independent repair facility. When a dealer has an identical charge of $1200 for a rear view mirror, airbag reset, gas gauge repair, I have to question their integrity.
The problem is all the studies are 3 years or less for long term customer service. CR or JD powers need to interview some owners that keep their cars longer than 8 years. Then we will get the true picture.
I did not fault the Lexus vehicle. I fault the Lexus dealers in their tactics to try and influence you to get rid of that old Lexus and buy a new one. They overcharge for simple repairs. I find that distasteful. If Land Rover uses the same tactics I would find it equally as bad.
I am so tired of you and your ubber unreliable LS400. Honestly, you know what I think? You simply just don't drive it enough. 18 years and 90K miles that's like 5000 miles per year. A car normally drives 3 times more than that on an average. You know that cars need to be driven and they tend to go bad if not driven enough right?
You had a bad lexus dealer. My MIL never had any problems with her Lexus dealer but they wouldn't replace her blown tranny with a rebuilt unit so she went to an independent.
That saved her about 2,000 dollars. A good independent is a god send for any older vehicle. Dealers are always going to be more expensive as the service operation is paying most of the bills. The new car departments at most dealerships are run to break even at best and some are run at a loss continuously. That is what has happened to the new car industry. Some dealers make money on used cars but not enough to turn a profit overall.
I think we now know where all the bad Lexus dealers are, and who the Lexus lemons get sold to. :P
The rest of the world has a very different opinion about Lexus, perceived or otherwise. And it helps to have that. It would help GM and Ford to have that. And there are good reasons for that "perception". It is called ownership experience.
It is why some import brands have gained respect from Americans.
Obviously you are not part of any group that believes in environmental conservation. Driving less miles is good for the planet. Keeping a car as long as possible is good for the planet. I try to do both.
I did not make the statement on how great Lexus is and how crappy the domestics are. I just responded to let people know that Lexus is not perfect. I would imagine there are a lot more old Caddies still running than Lexus.
I did not say our LS400 was unreliable. I said the dealer was ripping us off on simple repairs that we felt were needed to keep the car like new. Which it is.
For those that are environmentally inclined. I would suggest keeping your cars and trucks as long as possible. Find an independent repair facility as soon as possible, after the warranty expires.
I won't fault Gagrice for pointing out issues with his vehicle. I point out all the issues I've had with my Suburban quite often. It does get frustrating. My Suburban is a 2000 with 86kmiles. It has nickel and dimed along with leg and armed me to death. It just never ends. Yesterday the "service 4wd" light came on. I hate to get rid of it because I really don't want to buy a new/newer one yet.
No make is perfect. No doubt some are better than others.
If you can post that list of bad Lexus dealers it may be helpful to the rest of us. I don't think Lexus has had many lemons. They do have parts that break with time.
I doubt the rest of the World knows what a Lexus is. They are built primarily for the wealthy American clientele. Even the Japanese did not know what they were till last year. Kind of our little secret.
Thank you. The sad part is I had considered buying a used 2000-02 Suburban until I read of problems from yourself and others. That is what the forum is for.
Many here feel it a personal insult if you say anything bad about a brand they like.
You'd think with all of the incompetence displayed by the Big 3 over the past 40 years you'd have a bunch of new US auto companies that actually produce relevant and competitive product.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Established foreign brands have a hard enough time in the US market. A homegrown mass market brand would not stand a chance.
A little niche sports car or super car company can survive in the US but not a new start up company trying to offer anything close to a full line of vehicles.
Hope you are changing out your radiator fluid a time or two since 1999. Be sure to have it flushed. Yeap, the old gal is pretty reliable I bet. Only thing which comes to mind is the intact manifold, and changing the coolant ever so often may help in that problem from ever occurring. How is your air conditioning doing? Loren
I assume you mean me??? Anti freeze needs to be flushed??? Like down the toilet or something??? :P :P :P I bought it used, so the manifold COULD have been replaced, I don't know. I've had no problems. A/C is ICE COLD!!
Ya know, I wonder about that. It's certainly the common wisdom and has been proven in the fairly distant past, but with Cerberus now taking over Chrysler, I wonder if you could see another capital outfit deciding to start one from scratch?
Unlikely but so was the idea of an American car company not beholden to shareholders...
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Quetion: If the Camcord/Altima sell for closer to MSRP than do the Fusion, Impala, and Aura, does that not skew(?) the results somewhat, as the study uses the MSRP as a baseline, and not actual cost. I do believe there are studies out there that tell how close the average car sells to MSRP. That has always been a point the domestics get hammered on, that their cars sell nowhere near MSRP, while the [non-permissible content removed] Big 3 always get near, at ,or above MSRP.
"CR or JD powers need to interview some owners that keep their cars longer than 8 years."
Cr did do a survey of cars kept for a 10 year period(1997 MY-2006) and the Japanese Big 3 were the most reliable car brands in that survey. VW was the worst of the major makes while Ford was middle of the pack. GM and Chrysler had basically the same record for reliability at the 10 year mark of ownership but both had worse reliability than the Japanese Big 3 makes or even Ford at the 10 year mark of ownership. CR said Hyundai's newer models were up there reliability wise with the Japanese makes but older Hyundai's have more problems than the Domestics.
If the Camcord/Altima sell for closer to MSRP than do the Fusion, Impala, and Aura, does that not skew(?) the results somewhat, as the study uses the MSRP as a baseline, and not actual cost
TCO uses actual cost (TMV) not MSRP. That said, none of these cars sell at MSRP. At least, I haven't paid MSRP on *any* car yet, much less the mainstreamers. Its usually close to listed invoice which by itself is about 9-10% off MSRP.
btw, Gagrice, how much did that indy charge you for the $1200 service?
The independent Lexus shop charged us $253 for the part on the gas gauge. They did several other minor repairs including some bushings in the front end a leaky valve cover gasket and reset the airbag light. The total bill with tax was just under $1100. These were repairs that Lexus estimated at over $5k. I will go in an rate them on the sight listed.
I guess that is why it pays to shop around for service. For example, yesterday I had new shocks installed on the Suburban. I talked to the local shop down the road and they quoted me $323 for 4 Monroe Sensatraks including installation. I called Tires Plus and they wanted nearly $500 for the same shocks.
Sometimes it just depends on the repairs. Somethings I get done at the dealer others I don't. I saved a ton having the trans rebuilt at a local small trans shop, yet my local Chevy dealer was real close on price when I replaced my A/C compressor and fuel pump. Plus GM gives a life time warranty on the parts.
Unless you're driving a Toyota, like I was, and on the way home at 10 at night, My right headlight, all my taillights, and all my interior lights (speedometer, tach, etc.) all went out
Neither is Accord or Camry, or even G6's sibling Aura. The point being, you don't see "better cars" with cheaper set ups. Its not a premium thing, it is just one of those things that takes some cars to another level while others keep doing cheap things while trying to compete.
I would say a double wishbone suspension, OHC engine, five or more speed transmission, stability control, would be good for starters of what is missing on a G6 car for around $22K. Sorry, but the car is an antique compared to the competition. Only modern day, antique GM which comes to mind as something to snap up right now, could be the Camaro with a 3.8 V6 and a stick. Loren
the next generation. A class needs to be offered in High Schools across the nation. Educate our children and let them make the decision on how they spend thier money. Its too late for many Americans to understand what happens when an American decides to send $20,000 overseas or even $10,000 (Kia) and what the longterm consequences are to our economy and our economic stability. Its just not cars folks, it all products. We have sent Billions overseas over the last 10 years and what have we got back? Walmart? IKEA? Sad, our children are going to pay the price of our ignorance.
Here is some news. Chrysler's new CEO to be the former head of Home Depot. There will now be a self check out lane at all Chrysler dealerships to save on the bottom line cost.
Recall Lee Iaccoca stating, " If you can find a better car buy it! " The problem is people did, but it was not USA branded. The new stuff, like the New Malibu, may be enough to draw some back to domestic products once again. And to be fair to Chrysler, if you like the tall doors and little windows, chop top look to say the 300 model, the car is pretty good value wise. The Ford Fusion seems to be reliable. There are a few sparks here and there, so maybe a fire will be lit once again for American brands of cars. Seems like what they did best was those really cool cars of say the late 60's, with RWD. Once into the FWD era somehow it all got lost. The quality of cars went adrift, and those once though to be funny little Japan and German cars suddenly became the stronger running, and more desirable cars, both in RWD and FWD cars. The German cars, made by GM and Ford are said to be of better quality, so perhaps it was not the fault of the buyers in America, but rather the lack of the best product sold here. I hope they don't blow it again by letting the bean counters make all the decision on content qualities.
So Robert Nardelli is the new CEO - that doesn't bode well imo. Lowe's ran a better ship and the shareholders are still mad at Nardelli's financial arrangements at the Depot. Home Depot has a strong anti-union policy too, so that may follow Nardelli to Chrysler as well, which could focus a lot of attention on contract talks instead of getting new product out the door.
Comments
Of course the domestics led the way with Saturn in Tennessee.
As for your complaints about the other markets, you haven't provided any link to substantiate your claims. Until then.
It seems Detroit chose to box itself out. An open mind goes a long way.
I don't know why Cadillac and Lincoln cars do not sell at home. I know the Escalade beats all in its class for sales. GM as a whole has the SUV full sized market pretty weil tied up. How is that bad for them? At least they are best at some segments.
Just that, how reliable is that market segment now and in the longer term? If it isn't, there is nothing to worry about, is it?
Cadillac now looks good, but their prices are too low. They need to slowly move up market a bit. Somehow GM has never managed to move Cadillac up market but on a whole despite being working man’s luxury they are not too bad off at the moment.
Lincoln, on the other hand looks old and dated. The town car and the mkz look they belong in the early 90ies. Ford just does not spend enough cash making sure it’s car line up is fresh, new, and competitive for the price.
Loren
I see lots of Cadillacs here in the Midwest. Who says they're not selling.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd say Cadillac's problem is the same as the rest of GM's. They sold to many troublesome and uncompetitive product for to long. I'd guess if you spent quite a bit of cash on a vehicle that turned out to be substandard, it would take a long time to get that person back. Odds are they may have gone to Lexus never to return.
The CTS seems decent and the new model looks to be very nice. The SRX could have been so much more if it wasn't priced so high and had a better interior from the start. I rarely see one. The new STS looks good, but it is competing in a touch market as is the CTS. Escalade has the goods, DTS's clientele is dying off and the Lucerne is probably a better buy.
Not if they have to deal with Lexus after the warranty is up. They will look elsewhere. I would like to see a survey on customer service after the warranty is over. I would bet that Lexus drops to the bottom like a rock. Lexus is fortunate in the fact that they sell to fat cats that generally dump the car after 3 years. So they have a good dealer experience.
After the so called "fat cats" dump there Lexus's after 3 years, it's not like they disappear. Lexus and Acura have a pretty impressive used car warranty program and look at how expensive a used Lexus is. People want them.
It's not like the experience with a Cadillac dealership is fun and inexpensive. A friend of mine just had to replace the transmission in his '98 Seville STS at 85k miles. He wasn't bragging about his experience with the dealership, other than the fact that he felt "bent over".
I have sold a ton out of warranty Lexus vehicles. They are one of the few vehicles we will sell out of warranty simply because their come back rate is so low.
In the past three years I can only think of one Lexus that we have had to bring back for work within our used car warranty period. Even that one was fairly minor as the O2 sensor just gave up the ghost.
You can say that Lexus are boring, uninspiring, soulless vehicles all day long and I will agree with you but you can't say they are unreliable.
My MIL has a 1999 Lexus RX300 that my FIL bought when it was 2 or 3 years old. He bought it from a police auction so it has the absolute worst history you can think of. I think it was seized from some drug dealer or something and was a little rough. He had a couple of grand of body work done to it and it looked like new.
She has 180,000 miles on it now and has only had two problems. The 02 sensors have been replaced once which is to be expected.
Now the other problem was entirely her fault. I serviced the transmission for her once when I had my shop and that was at 120,000 miles. The service had never been done before then and was never done after either. It really didn't surprise me that the transmission failed at 160,000 miles or so. It was replaced with a rebuilt one for 2,500 dollars or so and has been fine ever since.
The problem is all the studies are 3 years or less for long term customer service. CR or JD powers need to interview some owners that keep their cars longer than 8 years. Then we will get the true picture.
That saved her about 2,000 dollars. A good independent is a god send for any older vehicle. Dealers are always going to be more expensive as the service operation is paying most of the bills. The new car departments at most dealerships are run to break even at best and some are run at a loss continuously. That is what has happened to the new car industry. Some dealers make money on used cars but not enough to turn a profit overall.
The rest of the world has a very different opinion about Lexus, perceived or otherwise. And it helps to have that. It would help GM and Ford to have that. And there are good reasons for that "perception". It is called ownership experience.
It is why some import brands have gained respect from Americans.
I did not make the statement on how great Lexus is and how crappy the domestics are. I just responded to let people know that Lexus is not perfect. I would imagine there are a lot more old Caddies still running than Lexus.
I did not say our LS400 was unreliable. I said the dealer was ripping us off on simple repairs that we felt were needed to keep the car like new. Which it is.
For those that are environmentally inclined. I would suggest keeping your cars and trucks as long as possible. Find an independent repair facility as soon as possible, after the warranty expires.
No make is perfect. No doubt some are better than others.
I doubt the rest of the World knows what a Lexus is. They are built primarily for the wealthy American clientele. Even the Japanese did not know what they were till last year. Kind of our little secret.
Many here feel it a personal insult if you say anything bad about a brand they like.
That list is in the works!
And even better, there's a list being made of all the good Lexus (and other) dealers.
Dealer Ratings and Reviews
Note that we have sections for the buying experience as well as how you are treated in the service department.
btw, Gagrice, how much did that indy charge you for the $1200 service?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You'd think with all of the incompetence displayed by the Big 3 over the past 40 years you'd have a bunch of new US auto companies that actually produce relevant and competitive product.
Same thing that people kept asking why there isn't a third party... Same reason.
A little niche sports car or super car company can survive in the US but not a new start up company trying to offer anything close to a full line of vehicles.
Loren
I assume you mean me??? Anti freeze needs to be flushed??? Like down the toilet or something??? :P :P :P
I bought it used, so the manifold COULD have been replaced, I don't know. I've had no problems. A/C is ICE COLD!!
Unlikely but so was the idea of an American car company not beholden to shareholders...
Nissan opened Smyrna in 1983, while Spring Hill didn't open until 1990.
New car companies starting up in the US? How about Smart... er, I mean smart.
Loren
Cr did do a survey of cars kept for a 10 year period(1997 MY-2006) and the Japanese Big 3 were the most reliable car brands in that survey. VW was the worst of the major makes while Ford was middle of the pack. GM and Chrysler had basically the same record for reliability at the 10 year mark of ownership but both had worse reliability than the Japanese Big 3 makes or even Ford at the 10 year mark of ownership. CR said Hyundai's newer models were up there reliability wise with the Japanese makes but older Hyundai's have more problems than the Domestics.
Oh thanks for setting me straight on that one.
TCO uses actual cost (TMV) not MSRP. That said, none of these cars sell at MSRP. At least, I haven't paid MSRP on *any* car yet, much less the mainstreamers. Its usually close to listed invoice which by itself is about 9-10% off MSRP.
The independent Lexus shop charged us $253 for the part on the gas gauge. They did several other minor repairs including some bushings in the front end a leaky valve cover gasket and reset the airbag light. The total bill with tax was just under $1100. These were repairs that Lexus estimated at over $5k. I will go in an rate them on the sight listed.
Sometimes it just depends on the repairs. Somethings I get done at the dealer others I don't. I saved a ton having the trans rebuilt at a local small trans shop, yet my local Chevy dealer was real close on price when I replaced my A/C compressor and fuel pump. Plus GM gives a life time warranty on the parts.
Loren
Just a thought,
Loren