I, personally, would never hire non-union electricians, plumbers or other skilled tradesmen. Those union guys really know what they are doing. They have to go to training and are held accountable by the other union members to do a good job.
That's good to know. I think people who don't understand don't realize that there are many different aspects of unions, and paint them all with a broad brush. What one may see or hear about the UAW may not necessarily apply to the Garment workers, or teamsters, or IBEW.
I think you struck a chord with your comment..."What one may see or hear about the UAW may not necessarily apply to the Garment workers, or teamsters, or IBEW."
I have nothing but disdain for the UAW, having spent 10 years in Detroit, 1980-1990, at the height of what I will call the "Big 3 Junk Era" and the simultaneous beginning of the Japanese auto invasion...
I was amazed...those who worked in auto families thought the UAW was the Almighty...almost ANYONE I spoke to who was nonunion was fed up with making payments on the crap they made and wanted the free choice to buy a Honda, Toyota or Datsun, and, as those makes became more popular, you could almost see the spite in their eyes as they fionally bought a product that THEY believed was better made, ran better, and got better mileage...it was almost a Hatfield and McCoy attitude...
I bought 4 Hondas, 1985, 1986, and two in 1988, and, to this day, I believe they were the best cars I ever owned...
So, when you combine the attitude that the UAW makes junk, and add that to the wage they make for tightening 5 lug nuts on a wheel or sweeping the floor, it is ridiculous, quite frankly...
While I understand the free market (if they can get it, than they are worth it), the shifting of much manufacturing to cheaper places means that they really AIN'Y worth it, except the last 3 UAW members left, one to turn out the lights as they leave the last remaining plant for Ford, GM and Chrysler...
Sorry to add this, but wouldn't the loss of textile industries imply that garment workers are included in the "they aren't worth what they are paid to make a shirt" group???
I think people respect the construction trade unions because they provide services to the employer. They handle training. They handle recruitment of people (i.e. a contractor can call down and get a dozen plumbers without having to advertise in the papers and screen out unqualified applicants.). They handle health insurance and retirement. In addition they don’t seem quite as locked up as the UAW. And people understand the seasonal nature of construction jobs. I.e. Bad weather, bad economy and they are the first ones hurting.
With the UAW, it seems to be more take than give. They are hard to lay off or fire(unlike most). There is only one union for all auto makers (something I feel is foolish). They don’t handle insurance or retirement or training. They just don’t seem to give enough both to the employer and to their members.
The UAW has (at least) one chance to add positively to the survival of the Big Three that we can identify. That chance comes right now. I fear that the nonenterprising employee culture may be too ingrained for rehabilitation into producing price competitive products. The union(s) may ignore the reality in operation, and sink the ship. And will management step up and bring forward new production plans?
Textiles is an interesting case. Most of our clothes now come from China or or developing country - it's not only the labor that's cheap, but the safety and environmental protections are nil.
So now Nike not only has to worry about the public reaction (and potential loss of sales) from sweatshop stories, if their Chinese factory is dumping dyes into the rivers and turning them red, concerned consumers in the first world will quit buying that product and they'll demand the companies clean up the contract factories (this is already happening btw - link). Throw in a Triangle Shirt Factory fire disaster and the negative public relations could sink a company like Lands End.
The UAW should be sending investigators to the third world to gather evidence of toxic waste dumping by auto suppliers. It may cost so much to clean up their act, some of those suppliers may decide to return to North America.
Geeze, if a PhD will only get you a job at 7-Eleven, I guess the guy who robs the 7-Eleven will just have a Masters, Bachelors, or a high school diploma.
The other side of the pollution in China story is product safety. Hardly a day goes by that some product is not being recalled that was "made in China". How did they get lead in children's cloths? When did we quit making toothpaste?
With hybrids, I wonder if they could be made without a China or India that has little environmental control. I don't think the US or Japan would allow NiMH battery manufacturing. Have we ever manufactured NiCad, NiMH or Li-Ion batteries?
We had a guy working for us in 1975 at RCA Alascom with a PHD. He was the night janitor. It was a Union job and he told me it gave him more time to think and read. Very low stress job. Very bright guy with no motivation at all. It takes motivation and education to land the big jobs.
Have we ever manufactured NiCad, NiMH or Li-Ion batteries?
In smallish quantities. Production on the scale required for a passenger fleet of hybrid and/or straight electric cars would require some hefty environmental mitigation in the US. Li-ions would come from China anyway since they have the world's largest lithium supply.
I totally agree. One of my best friends is much smarter than I am. I am a pretty sharp guy with an engineering degree so that tells you something. Anyway, I will always be more financially successful than he is because what I lack in brainpower I make up for in motivation, drive and focus. He is not very motivated and he seems to be content with maintaining the status quo. He is a good father and keeps food on the table and a roof over his head. He just does not make the best choices for his long-term career path.
Brains are only part of it. Although I know of very few successful people who are truly stupid.
At some point, we as an American society have to stand up and say enough is enough, or pretty soon all a PhD will get you is a job at a 7/11 owned by -you guessed it- an Indian.
Who do you consider an Indian? And who do you consider an American? We might be getting onto something here.
Not everyone can do what a Ph.d. do but almost everyone can be a 7/11 clerk or an auto worker. The US's future is in to become the innovative center of the world NOT the manufacturing center of the world. Let the developing countries take the low skill jobs, the US has to remain advanced in order to lead for the next 100 years.
Not all PhDs are created equal. I would much rather have a PhD is something like chemistry or mathematics than anthropology or literature. Sometimes it makes a lot of sense to pick a major in college where you can get a job.
True. But it is still harder (Waaaaaaaaaaayyy harder) to get a PhD in anthropology or literature than learn how to install the engine into a car on the assembly line.
I have a new found respect for all PhDs after I learned what they have to go through to get that degree.
"Brains are only part of it. Although I know of very few successful people who are truly stupid."
G.W. Bush comes to mind
I know people with multiple degrees that make you wonder what they require to get them, one I know of looked down the barrel to check if a gun was loaded.
Biggest problem in this country is who you know is more important than what you know when getting jobs.
"by chuckhoy Aug 26, 2007 (1:19 pm) Replying to: cooterbfd (Aug 26, 2007 4:11 am) I, personally, would never hire non-union electricians, plumbers or other skilled tradesmen. Those union guys really know what they are doing. They have to go to training and are held accountable by the other union members to do a good job."
that is exact opposite of what I have seen with union labor here.
I'm not sure that is totally true. Our pastor has two doctorates and is a concert classical pianist. I had to help him put a patio table together. He has absolutely no mechanical skills. Not all people are created with the same skill set.
When you have more than enough PHDs they cannot demand the pay. Unions try to balance out the pay so you do not suffer when there is a glut of people willing to do a given job.
Some parts of the country are in a big time labor shortage. Montana and Wyoming are right at 4% unemployment. McDonald's are paying up to $10 per hour for burger flippers. One is outsourcing his drive up window.
McDonald's throughout the United States have difficulty finding and retaining good workers; but in a place like Gillette, Wyoming, the search for any help can be nearly impossible. McD's outsourcing
Idaho’s seasonally adjusted employment for July '07 fell to a record low of 2.3%. We aren't building cars, but you can get an American made locomotive built or refurbished here.
believed that ANY education is good to have, I have also always believed that some degrees have a tendency to lead to employment that is related to the degree, whether BA/BS, MA/MS, and PhD...
Example: a degree in engineering can have a good chance of leading to a job with a compnay that requires an engineer, whereas a degree in, say, English, Psychology, History, Art History, unless you intend to teach that material, rarely leads to a job...
As I say, while education for the sake of education is a good thing, just what can you do with a degree in English or History (aside from teach it or go on to law school or an MBA) that makes it so valuable???
If we are to become the technology leader, 4 year liberal arts degrees, where one just extended adolescence for 4 years, just do not seem to have much of a future...at least in the area of gainful employment...
the shifting of much manufacturing to cheaper places means that they really AIN'T worth it,
You see Marsha, with the federal minimum wage at $6.25 you now could argue that NOBODY in America is worth that, compared to what you can get done in emerging countries.
Even people with engineering or computer programming degrees are finding their work being undercut by people in China and India.
In your last post, you brought up a valid point about getting a degree that MEANS something, as opposed to a liberal arts degree (like that comment about 4 more yrs. of adolesence ).
My question is that when do we as a country start saying:
"Hey, wait a minute!!! I understand farming out a textile job, but THIS person just invested $150,000 in a college education to be a mechanical engineer. How can you justify sending their job to India, just because you can pay them $500 a month to do the same job???"
I could understand it if there was a lack of people here to do the work (something that may have been the case 30-40 yrs. ago up North that also helped shift textile work down South, and eventually out of the country), but I find something inherently wrong with putting able bodied people out of work here because somebody over there will do it for pennies on the dollar.
So, when you combine the attitude that the UAW makes junk, and add that to the wage they make for tightening 5 lug nuts on a wheel or sweeping the floor, it is ridiculous, quite frankly...
As far as this goes, I think the attitude began to change when GM put it's Spring Hill, Tenn. Saturn plant online in 1989 or '90. Those employees had the power to shut down the assembly plant if they saw something wrong or had an idea to make an improvement-something I believe they gleemed from the Japanese- that helped boost morale because they were actually making a difference, as opposed to just being a "tool" on the assembly line. Someone pointed out that talks amongst the UAW and the Big 3 were really quiet, which can be seen as a sign of a lack of acrimony-a good thing. Let's face it, EVERYBODYS future, from Wagoner and Mullaly all the way down to the lowest person on the totem pole depends on it.
Manufacturers who outsource forgot one thing. If everybody is out of work, who is going to buy your product-the Chinese dude you pay 65 cents an hour? I don't think so!
I understand farming out a textile job, but THIS person just invested $150,000 in a college education to be a mechanical engineer. How can you justify sending their job to India, just because you can pay them $500 a month to do the same job???"
Couple of questions...
Who is sending their jobs to India? Why are they sending those jobs to India or elsewhere?
The value of a liberal arts bachelors degree from a fully accredited college carries a value that may defy being quantified. While job orientation is a reasonable parameter for selecting a major, it reveals little in terms of intellectual development. If you do not want to be "educated" and prefer "job training degree programs", fine. Just don't confuse the two.
There are many companies that are sending software design and even hardware design overseas. Even read an article that stated some smaller newspapers were having articles written by journalists in India who write the stories based on internet and wire reports.
Your point is well taken...I certainly have no problem with folks who take college for intellectual development, and a liberal arts degree will certainly do that...
But, many college grads theoretically will want/need a job of some kind to pay bills, assuming they do not go home to Mom and Dad (or marry Paris Hilton)...
I do wonder, while they sit on a job interview, what they expect History and Art to do for them...does it expand the mind???...I am sure it does...but I still question what the English degree will do for someone if they do not teach English or go on to grad school...
It is my belief, maybe wrong, that college for most is an attempt to set oneself up for future employment, and my limited mindset wonders just what good a general liberal arts degree will do for someone seeking employment in the real world...
I think some undergrad degrees (or minors in a liberal arts subject) could help a transmission design engineer in her work - everyone has to sell themselves (or their ideas), and if the engineer can only describe why her 6 speed tranny is a smart design in engineer-speak, the beancounters may not pick up on the shades of gray that help distinguish the design.
Those nuances may help the sales staff move the car on the floor because 6 speeds are smoother or save gas -- the beancounter may just hear that the engineer solved a challenging design problem and turn the design down in favor of last year's 4 speed because they don't see how it'll profit the company down the road.
Oh, there's tons of jobs out there for people with liberal arts degrees; they just won't use what they learned in college. Loads of companies, banks and such want college grads and aren't nearly so fussy about what they major in.
Then there are those, my brother among them, that indeed get a nice liberal arts degree and go on to law school. Another brother went with his poli sci major into business school and is an executive in a major Fortune 500 company.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
My wife was talking to a recruiter from John Deere a few years ago. This recruiter said that for a lot of their jobs, he would rather hire someone with a liberal arts background. It is much easier to teach these people what they need to know about agriculture and machinery than trying to teach an ag major or an engineer about languages and culture when they need to deal with customers.
But, many college grads theoretically will want/need a job of some kind to pay bills
That is so very true. To get a teaching job in San Diego you have a few choices. You can get right on if you are willing to risk your life in an inner city school. To get a job in one of the many suburban school districts you work several years as a substitute. Then many more as low seniority. My sister in law has been at her school 11 years and is still not tenured. So that teaching degree may or may not pay off. Lots of out of work college grads that are not willing to work at McDonalds.....
I would rather have a bridge/road/building designed by someone who took civil engineering classes than someone who was taking french poetry classes. Being an engineer does not automatically make someone a social misfit either. I have an engineering degree and I can also communicate with others pretty well.
If you are going to be in sales, it makes sense to take a sociable person and teach them some rudimentary technical skills to speak competently about a product than to take a socially inept technical person and try and teach them some people skills. It is a waste of the technical know-how to turn a technical person into a salesman. Conversely, a lot of very skilled technical people make lousy managers and leaders. They are completely different skill sets.
Your post brings up a great question - what background do the people running the auto companies have?
Robert Nardelli is now CEO of Chrysler - he has a BS in business and an MBA.
Rick Wagoner is chairman and CEO of GM. His bachelor's is in economics and he also has an MBA. Blogging Bob Lutz is chairman and gets more press. He's got a bachelor's in Production Management and an MBA.
Alan Mulally of Ford has a bachelor's and a master of science degree, plus another masters in management. Bill Ford, now the chairman, was a history major and has an S.M. in management (equivalent to an M.B.A) form MIT.
Watanabe of Toyota has an economics degree. Fukui of Honda has a bachelor's in applied chemistry. Winterkorn of VW has a Ph.D in metallurgy and metal physics. Ghosn of Nissan has an engineering degree.
The next question is what education did the founders of these companies have.
Heck, to work in the Philadelphia School District, the only qualifications for my Tier I candidates would be were you a Navy SEAL or in Special Forces? My Tier II candidates - were you a soldier or Marine with extensive combat experience? My Tier III candidates - were you a police officer or correctional officer? The guys would would be rejected are those who are obviously too physically weak to deal with these little thugs.
certainly enlightened me...I am surprised, truly, at the types of jobs that employers would seek a liberal arts degree...
Steve: BTW, it was a psychology degree that I earned that was my ticket into law school, but I did say that many degrees are useful if they are intending on grad school...
Thanks for expanding the mind of an encrusted brain...
Worth noting is that those in-charge of Chrysler-Ford-GM have MBA (or equivalent), but the top folks from the Japanese big-3 don't.
As for founders, here is an interesting bit on Soichiro Honda...
A lack of formal education in automotive mechanics brought Honda to the Hamamatsu School of Technology. Robert L. Shook, in his book Honda: An American Success Story, stated that Honda was a poor student in his school days. "Honda reluctantly attended classes while continuing to run his business. Honda stubbornly paid little attention to anything in class that did not relate directly to piston rings. He took no notes, nor did he bother to take written examinations. The head of the school told him he would not receive a diploma if he refused to be tested. With that, Honda retorted that a diploma had less value than a movie ticket. 'A ticket will get you a seat in a movie theater, but a diploma won't get you a job!'"
In addition to the zaibatsu, Japanese industry relied heavily on the gakubatsu, described by Shook as "the 'good old boy' networking system that placed more emphasis on what school a person graduated from than on his or her ability to perform on the job." Honda had no respect for this system.
But, aren't these American companies that are doing that? Believe me, I work for one such company. I won't blame another country for taking jobs away from the USA. Would you?
I believe that fundamental communication education (a subdivision of "English") has been drifting downward for years. Effective reading, speaking, and writing skills can be strong tools for young workers looking to get ahead in virtually any field. I agree that an English major does not directly lead to being, say, an engineer. But we now live in a time in which to distinguish one's self, and to float to the top of the candidate list, the real ticket punch is a graduate degree. And that advanced degree can be in areas far from the bachelors degree in English. I suspect that the MBA is currently one of the best.
MBA is at its best when matching with other degrees such as engineering, science, poli sci, etc... By having just a management degree (whether it's a bachelor or master), the person will likely to become the manager who doesn't know anything within the office.
I won't blame another country for taking jobs away from the USA. Would you?
Not at all. I DO blame the management of OUR companies who send those jobs away, just to fatten their paychecks.
To correlate this to the topic at hand, what if ALL auto mfrs. moved ALL their operations out of North America? Sure, car prices might drop by 1/4-1/2, but wouldn't that STILL mean BILLIONS of dollars in lost wages? How do we make up for that??
Just because YOU or I may not have anything to worry about, or we may think we can adapt to a new job w/ a similar wage, doesn't say the same for everyone.
I don't mean to sound like a doomsayer, but I just have some concern for our economy, and what will drive it now and in the years to come if we keep exporting jobs and importing goods and services. The title of this forum could be Buying American...........What Does It Mean? Insert ANY career and ask yourself that question.
How many people out there have a job that DOESN'T rely on the American consumer purchasing (directly OR indirectly) their goods and services???
What a shame. Good thing we have a contract that states they can't move more than 7/10ths of 1% of our work out of the area (more than 50 mi.) each year. For my wife's call center, that would mean 3 jobs each year (out of 350 employees)
Here's another thing. Even if you still have a job and/or the skills to do something else and your neighbors are out of work and have no marketable skills in this so-called "global economy" doesn't that have an effect on your quality of life when your neighborhood falls into decay as your neighbors fall into despair and poverty? Pretty soon they start to neglect their properties. Litter and graffiti cover the streets. The kids are going wild because Mom and Dad aren't there to supervise them as they are collectively working four jobs at Wal~Mart, McDonald's, Starbucks, and Taco Bell or self-medicating with drugs and alcohol. Pretty soon Little Jimmy who you remember selling lemonade and carrying a slingshot in his back pocket is slingin' rocks and packin' a Glock. What do you do? Do you sell your house at its greatly diminished value and run away to the suburbs like all the other cowards or do you buy thousands of dollars of security and surveillance equipment along with several large caliber handguns, a 12-gauge shotgun, and an assault rifle? All those have-nots will want a piece of what you've got.
Comments
I have nothing but disdain for the UAW, having spent 10 years in Detroit, 1980-1990, at the height of what I will call the "Big 3 Junk Era" and the simultaneous beginning of the Japanese auto invasion...
I was amazed...those who worked in auto families thought the UAW was the Almighty...almost ANYONE I spoke to who was nonunion was fed up with making payments on the crap they made and wanted the free choice to buy a Honda, Toyota or Datsun, and, as those makes became more popular, you could almost see the spite in their eyes as they fionally bought a product that THEY believed was better made, ran better, and got better mileage...it was almost a Hatfield and McCoy attitude...
I bought 4 Hondas, 1985, 1986, and two in 1988, and, to this day, I believe they were the best cars I ever owned...
So, when you combine the attitude that the UAW makes junk, and add that to the wage they make for tightening 5 lug nuts on a wheel or sweeping the floor, it is ridiculous, quite frankly...
While I understand the free market (if they can get it, than they are worth it), the shifting of much manufacturing to cheaper places means that they really AIN'Y worth it, except the last 3 UAW members left, one to turn out the lights as they leave the last remaining plant for Ford, GM and Chrysler...
Sorry to add this, but wouldn't the loss of textile industries imply that garment workers are included in the "they aren't worth what they are paid to make a shirt" group???
With the UAW, it seems to be more take than give. They are hard to lay off or fire(unlike most). There is only one union for all auto makers (something I feel is foolish). They don’t handle insurance or retirement or training. They just don’t seem to give enough both to the employer and to their members.
So now Nike not only has to worry about the public reaction (and potential loss of sales) from sweatshop stories, if their Chinese factory is dumping dyes into the rivers and turning them red, concerned consumers in the first world will quit buying that product and they'll demand the companies clean up the contract factories (this is already happening btw - link). Throw in a Triangle Shirt Factory fire disaster and the negative public relations could sink a company like Lands End.
The UAW should be sending investigators to the third world to gather evidence of toxic waste dumping by auto suppliers. It may cost so much to clean up their act, some of those suppliers may decide to return to North America.
With hybrids, I wonder if they could be made without a China or India that has little environmental control. I don't think the US or Japan would allow NiMH battery manufacturing. Have we ever manufactured NiCad, NiMH or Li-Ion batteries?
In smallish quantities. Production on the scale required for a passenger fleet of hybrid and/or straight electric cars would require some hefty environmental mitigation in the US. Li-ions would come from China anyway since they have the world's largest lithium supply.
Never heard of Tom's of Maine? link. Now you need to check out Ford's of Detroit. :shades:
Brains are only part of it. Although I know of very few successful people who are truly stupid.
Who do you consider an Indian? And who do you consider an American? We might be getting onto something here.
Not everyone can do what a Ph.d. do but almost everyone can be a 7/11 clerk or an auto worker. The US's future is in to become the innovative center of the world NOT the manufacturing center of the world. Let the developing countries take the low skill jobs, the US has to remain advanced in order to lead for the next 100 years.
1020 foot poleTrue. But it is still harder (Waaaaaaaaaaayyy harder) to get a PhD in anthropology or literature than learn how to install the engine into a car on the assembly line.
I have a new found respect for all PhDs after I learned what they have to go through to get that degree.
G.W. Bush comes to mind
I know people with multiple degrees that make you wonder what they require to get them, one I know of looked down the barrel to check if a gun was loaded.
Biggest problem in this country is who you know is more important than what you know when getting jobs.
Replying to: cooterbfd (Aug 26, 2007 4:11 am)
I, personally, would never hire non-union electricians, plumbers or other skilled tradesmen. Those union guys really know what they are doing. They have to go to training and are held accountable by the other union members to do a good job."
that is exact opposite of what I have seen with union labor here.
When you have more than enough PHDs they cannot demand the pay. Unions try to balance out the pay so you do not suffer when there is a glut of people willing to do a given job.
Some parts of the country are in a big time labor shortage. Montana and Wyoming are right at 4% unemployment. McDonald's are paying up to $10 per hour for burger flippers. One is outsourcing his drive up window.
McDonald's throughout the United States have difficulty finding and retaining good workers; but in a place like Gillette, Wyoming, the search for any help can be nearly impossible.
McD's outsourcing
Example: a degree in engineering can have a good chance of leading to a job with a compnay that requires an engineer, whereas a degree in, say, English, Psychology, History, Art History, unless you intend to teach that material, rarely leads to a job...
As I say, while education for the sake of education is a good thing, just what can you do with a degree in English or History (aside from teach it or go on to law school or an MBA) that makes it so valuable???
If we are to become the technology leader, 4 year liberal arts degrees, where one just extended adolescence for 4 years, just do not seem to have much of a future...at least in the area of gainful employment...
I am certainly willing to be corrected...
You see Marsha, with the federal minimum wage at $6.25 you now could argue that NOBODY in America is worth that, compared to what you can get done in emerging countries.
Even people with engineering or computer programming degrees are finding their work being undercut by people in China and India.
In your last post, you brought up a valid point about getting a degree that MEANS something, as opposed to a liberal arts degree (like that comment about 4 more yrs. of adolesence
My question is that when do we as a country start saying:
"Hey, wait a minute!!! I understand farming out a textile job, but THIS person just invested $150,000 in a college education to be a mechanical engineer. How can you justify sending their job to India, just because you can pay them $500 a month to do the same job???"
I could understand it if there was a lack of people here to do the work (something that may have been the case 30-40 yrs. ago up North that also helped shift textile work down South, and eventually out of the country), but I find something inherently wrong with putting able bodied people out of work here because somebody over there will do it for pennies on the dollar.
So, when you combine the attitude that the UAW makes junk, and add that to the wage they make for tightening 5 lug nuts on a wheel or sweeping the floor, it is ridiculous, quite frankly...
As far as this goes, I think the attitude began to change when GM put it's Spring Hill, Tenn. Saturn plant online in 1989 or '90. Those employees had the power to shut down the assembly plant if they saw something wrong or had an idea to make an improvement-something I believe they gleemed from the Japanese- that helped boost morale because they were actually making a difference, as opposed to just being a "tool" on the assembly line.
Someone pointed out that talks amongst the UAW and the Big 3 were really quiet, which can be seen as a sign of a lack of acrimony-a good thing. Let's face it, EVERYBODYS future, from Wagoner and Mullaly all the way down to the lowest person on the totem pole depends on it.
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20070829_Poverty_rate__As_the_U_S__l- evel_improved__Phila__and_Camden_were_among_poorest__the_suburbs_richest_.html
Couple of questions...
Who is sending their jobs to India? Why are they sending those jobs to India or elsewhere?
But, many college grads theoretically will want/need a job of some kind to pay bills, assuming they do not go home to Mom and Dad (or marry Paris Hilton)...
I do wonder, while they sit on a job interview, what they expect History and Art to do for them...does it expand the mind???...I am sure it does...but I still question what the English degree will do for someone if they do not teach English or go on to grad school...
It is my belief, maybe wrong, that college for most is an attempt to set oneself up for future employment, and my limited mindset wonders just what good a general liberal arts degree will do for someone seeking employment in the real world...
Please enlighten me...
I think some undergrad degrees (or minors in a liberal arts subject) could help a transmission design engineer in her work - everyone has to sell themselves (or their ideas), and if the engineer can only describe why her 6 speed tranny is a smart design in engineer-speak, the beancounters may not pick up on the shades of gray that help distinguish the design.
Those nuances may help the sales staff move the car on the floor because 6 speeds are smoother or save gas -- the beancounter may just hear that the engineer solved a challenging design problem and turn the design down in favor of last year's 4 speed because they don't see how it'll profit the company down the road.
Then there are those, my brother among them, that indeed get a nice liberal arts degree and go on to law school. Another brother went with his poli sci major into business school and is an executive in a major Fortune 500 company.
That is so very true. To get a teaching job in San Diego you have a few choices. You can get right on if you are willing to risk your life in an inner city school. To get a job in one of the many suburban school districts you work several years as a substitute. Then many more as low seniority. My sister in law has been at her school 11 years and is still not tenured. So that teaching degree may or may not pay off. Lots of out of work college grads that are not willing to work at McDonalds.....
If you are going to be in sales, it makes sense to take a sociable person and teach them some rudimentary technical skills to speak competently about a product than to take a socially inept technical person and try and teach them some people skills. It is a waste of the technical know-how to turn a technical person into a salesman. Conversely, a lot of very skilled technical people make lousy managers and leaders. They are completely different skill sets.
People should do what they are best at.
Robert Nardelli is now CEO of Chrysler - he has a BS in business and an MBA.
Rick Wagoner is chairman and CEO of GM. His bachelor's is in economics and he also has an MBA. Blogging Bob Lutz is chairman and gets more press. He's got a bachelor's in Production Management and an MBA.
Alan Mulally of Ford has a bachelor's and a master of science degree, plus another masters in management. Bill Ford, now the chairman, was a history major and has an S.M. in management (equivalent to an M.B.A) form MIT.
Watanabe of Toyota has an economics degree. Fukui of Honda has a bachelor's in applied chemistry. Winterkorn of VW has a Ph.D in metallurgy and metal physics. Ghosn of Nissan has an engineering degree.
The next question is what education did the founders of these companies have.
Steve: BTW, it was a psychology degree that I earned that was my ticket into law school, but I did say that many degrees are useful if they are intending on grad school...
Thanks for expanding the mind of an encrusted brain...
For once I agree with Lemko!!!
As for founders, here is an interesting bit on Soichiro Honda...
A lack of formal education in automotive mechanics brought Honda to the Hamamatsu School of Technology. Robert L. Shook, in his book Honda: An American Success Story, stated that Honda was a poor student in his school days. "Honda reluctantly attended classes while continuing to run his business. Honda stubbornly paid little attention to anything in class that did not relate directly to piston rings. He took no notes, nor did he bother to take written examinations. The head of the school told him he would not receive a diploma if he refused to be tested. With that, Honda retorted that a diploma had less value than a movie ticket. 'A ticket will get you a seat in a movie theater, but a diploma won't get you a job!'"
In addition to the zaibatsu, Japanese industry relied heavily on the gakubatsu, described by Shook as "the 'good old boy' networking system that placed more emphasis on what school a person graduated from than on his or her ability to perform on the job." Honda had no respect for this system.
Link to the article.
Not at all. I DO blame the management of OUR companies who send those jobs away, just to fatten their paychecks.
To correlate this to the topic at hand, what if ALL auto mfrs. moved ALL their operations out of North America? Sure, car prices might drop by 1/4-1/2, but wouldn't that STILL mean BILLIONS of dollars in lost wages? How do we make up for that??
Just because YOU or I may not have anything to worry about, or we may think we can adapt to a new job w/ a similar wage, doesn't say the same for everyone.
I don't mean to sound like a doomsayer, but I just have some concern for our economy, and what will drive it now and in the years to come if we keep exporting jobs and importing goods and services. The title of this forum could be Buying American...........What Does It Mean? Insert ANY career and ask yourself that question.
How many people out there have a job that DOESN'T rely on the American consumer purchasing (directly OR indirectly) their goods and services???
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Good thing we have a contract that states they can't move more than 7/10ths of 1% of our work out of the area (more than 50 mi.) each year. For my wife's call center, that would mean 3 jobs each year (out of 350 employees)