We have sent Billions overseas over the last 10 years and what have we got back? Walmart? IKEA? Last time I checked, Walmart was about as American as GM or Ford or Chrysler. Do you have a breakdown of those billions? How about the billions that American companies earn in exchange? If you want Americans to buy things made only by American companies, perhaps you wouldn't be averse to Europeans/Asians/Australians/Africans dimissing GM and Ford products for those very same reasons. In fact, you should be end up and be happy about it.
BTW, did those "billions" include imported oil?
That said, I've come up with a few titles for the book: "Why we must settle for less" "Doesn't appeal? So what?" "How to help Lutz buy a new Yacht" "American Corporations are next best thing to God" "Learn to be a slave"
I believe in your point, IN THE ABSTRACT, but not in reality...when American cars were pure junk (70s, 80s, much of 90s), barely qualifying as boat anchors, to simply BUY AMERICAN and support poor management and rotten union laborers (and you thought I was just gonna pick on the UAW by itself) would be almsot a crime in itself, as you would be subsidizing poor workmanship and poor quality products, while the automakers smugly crammed their junk down our throats...
The ONLY reason our quality improved was that we had to face the fact that the Japanese cars were simply better than ours, and folks were tired of having their UAW-made auto sit in the shop for months at a time while they could not fix them but payments had to be made...
I still wonder if the imports are REALLY still better, or if we have caught up...latest figures give the Big 3 (Chrysler is now back in the US) only a 49.7% market share, the first time they are under 50% combined...so, while we can ARGUE quality, the market seems to be saying something on its own...folks simply do not believe that we make 'em as well, or they would be lining up to buy them...
Is it sad to see our dollars go to Japan/Korea???...yes, but when you make the second largest purchase in your life (assuming a home is the biggest) and commit to 4,5,or 6 years of payments, shouldn't you be allowed to buy the product you think is best???...SHOULDN'T THAT BE A WAKE-UP CALL TO MANAGEMENT AND THE UAW THAT THEY SIMPLY HAVE NOT DONE ENOUGH TO IMPROVE THE QUALITY, RATHER THAN CRY THAT DOLLARS ARE GOING OVERSEAS TO WHAT IS BELIEVED AND PERCEIVED TO BE SUPERIOR PRODUCTS???
Why do the Big 3 still have the image of poorer quality, over a quarter century after the Japanese invasion began in earnest (1980-1985, depending on your opinion)...altho I own a Dodge and a Ford, I will tell you that I still believe that my 1988 Prelude and Legend were the two best cars I ever owned, and that is comparing 2004 Dodge and Ford quality with 1988 Honda quality, almost 20 years ago...
In my opinion, you need to look at the exact make and model car, and where it was built, not just Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, etc. My Toyotas were built in the USA, with 75% North American parts. Therefore, most of the dollars stayed in the USA. Sure, 25% of the parts were Japan, and the 5% profit might have left the country, but still the majority is USA. Wages, benefits, taxes, maintenance & repair, construction, utilities, etc. all USA. Same cannot be said of many "domestic" cars.
Glad to see that Toyota and Honda and others continue to build plants in the US, not Mexico or elsewhere. Again, just one opinion.
I still say it's time to put the hammer down and buy American brand name motor vehicles if you possibly can do it. Circumstances change for all of us, and from time to time we end up reversing from our intentions. We each need to give every opportunity to supporting the American brand names, especially when the choice to do otherwise is just based on habit. We need to preserve the industrial base of this country.
on the theory of maintaining our industrial base, but I find it difficult simply to Buy American if I was to believe that Americans make junk (referring to the Big 3 here, not American made Toyotas, Hondas, etc)...
Which, not to belabor the point (but I will) it seems to come down to the autoworkers union...the workers at our Toyota and Honda plants are Americans, as are many of their local suppliers...the reputation for quality that Honda and Toyota have comes from the American workers who make the product here...
What peole complain about is the product made in the UNIONIZED plants here of GM, Ford and Chrysler...aside from the poor management of Big 3, the other major variable seems to be union vs nonunion workers, i.e. those who can be fired today for bad work habits, and those who stay on the line for two years, working thru union grievance procedures, for bad work habits...
But, simply to buy GM or Ford to maintain the industrial base may seem silly if the car you buy is junk...at that point, what industrial base do you REALLY have???...more like a sham masquerading as an industrial base...
While management has its problems, I still believe that our base will improve when the unions are destroyed, removing all the procedures they use to stall the release of a worthless worker...all they do now is keep folks on the line, drunk or stoned, for up to 2 years, while pursuing sham appeals in the "grievance process"...the union protects the job while the consumer buys a Honda or Toyota...the union had better wake up, because, IMO, it is THEY who are destroying the quality of our industrial base...management can be dismissed tomorrow, but union workers stay there forever, and they make the product that Americans do not want to buy...
Which, not to belabor the point (but I will) it seems to come down to the autoworkers union...
Does that include the UNIONIZED TOYOTA PLANT in Fremont Ca. that builds MOST of the Corollas???
I still believe that our base will improve when the unions are destroyed, removing all the procedures they use to stall the release of a worthless worker...all they do now is keep folks on the line, drunk or stoned, for up to 2 years
I don't know where you get your facts from, but the greivance process is not intended to keep the worthless worker. If they were drunk or stoned, there is VERY LITTLE CHANCE of them even becoming employed by the Big 3 (US or [non-permissible content removed]) as there are drug testing policies in place prior to hiring. This process is intended to insure that the company has followed the guidelines set forth in a contract that THEY agreed to. They could've said no in the first place. They could've set up shop down south, or in another country, but they didn't.
You make valid points about purchasing something so significant and expensive, that it should be the best you can buy for your money. But be careful what you wish for; China has been sending over some real crap lately. Yes, it may have been put together properly, but contaminated pet food??? Toothpaste???? Lead in Toddlers toys??? Children's jewelry???? If we continue to allow all our mfr. base to go overseas, and those countries are much more slack on their regulations, how are we going to be able to get these products we want and need at any price if they won't meet our standards????
Fremont plant, but I believe it is one of the few, or the only, "import" manufacturer with a union, and that is simply because it was a joint venture between Toyota & GM, where, I believe, GM owned the plant but Toyota ran it, and the purpose was for GM to LEARN from Toy how to make a better car...Fremont, IIRC, was established as a joint venture back in the Late 80s or early 90s, probably before Toy started to build their own plants here in the South...my dates may be somewhat skewed, but Fremont was for GM's benefit, not Toyota's, but Toy consented as a "gesture" to minimize limits on imports...
When I lived in Detroit, for 10 years, THAT was the primary purpose of the union, to keep worthless workers on the line with stalling tactics like "grievance appeals" just like lawyers who continually appeal to keep their guilty clients out of prison...
Yes the company may have agreed to it, but poor management decisions like that are simply another reason to buy other-than-American products...so we can avoid the worthless union worker AND the stupid management that signed an agreement that allowed the worthless worker to stay on the line longer than 24 hours after his binge...thanks for the additional reason, would never have thought of it myself...
I have serious questions about China products...while "made in japan" was a joke in the 1960s, as we bought little Sony transistor radios with tinny speakers, they certainly upgraded their products over the years, and they became more expensive to buy that quality...
I really wonder if China will always be the place for cheap junk, as I do not expect WalMart to start buying $50 shirts from China...Japan was used to supplement American products years ago, and they became a force to be reckoned with...
Somehow I do not see China making cars like Benz, Lexus, etc, and I envision them as always the lower end of the trash market...I could certainly be wrong, of course, but I do not see China following the 50 year track that Japan followed...I have been wrong before and this could be my biggest error yet, but I simply see China on the lower end, and there may be a backlash if their products turn out to be harmful to children and pets...
Lets face it...if we stopped buying China toys and dangerous stuff from Walmart, they would react very quickly...unlike automakers, who seem to need 5 years to change a headlight design, Walmart could force major changes in less than 30 days, because they HAVE a responsive management that understands their marketing like Einstein understood e=mc2...
I may purchase japanese autos, but I still have questions about China...
Aside from small junk, are they really the threat you are afraid of???...after all, one small recession in the US, and China's factories are mothballed...
one small recession in the US, and China's factories are mothballed...
That's a welcome theory in view of today's news:
"He Fan, an official at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, went even further today, letting it be known that Beijing had the power to set off a dollar collapse if it choose to do so."
It certainly blows out of the water those claiming the Chinese currency has been and is undervalued.
It also blows out of the water those saying it's perfectly OK for money to go to the foreign-based companies because they reinvest it in the US as in T-bills and bonds.
all of your criticisms as valid, but how can we avoid the "global economy" which means that everyone else is paid less than we are, and has a standard of living far less than ours...
We can complain about the Chinese taking our textile industry from the South, but who will pay $50-60 for a simple casual short sleeve shirt made by $20/hour American workers???...while I am not the sole determinant of what someone's labor is worth, apparently the market is saying that there are not enough regular folks who will buy 5 shirts for $50 each...the MARKET, not me, has stated that it is not worth paying an American $20/hour to make cotton shirts...that is why WalMart is selling shirts for $9.00, because the Chinese labor is $1-2/hour, and Americans want $20/hour, and the shirts just sit on the shelves as the average person will NOT spend $50 for a shirt...so, is China the problem, or Americans who simply believe that a shirt simply ain't worth that much???
Can you blame someone who would rather buy a $9.00 shirt, so the work leaves the US???...do you have the right to MANDATE that folks buy $50 shirts to guarantee that we keep the textile industry here???
If Americans did the work here and kept the jobs here, everything would probably cost double or more, which would drive inflation much higher, or, folks would only buy 1 shirt instead of five, so the shirt assembly lines would only be making 1/5 the shirts, and folks would lose their jobs anyway, as there would not be a need for them...either way, the American job is lost, except right now you can point to China, whereas if the industry stayed her at $20/hour, you would just see big factories hiring few people and the same local unemployment...
There must be consequences...when folks lament the loss of textiles (to use my example) they assume, wrongly, a static example, assuming that everyone would buy 10 new $50 shirts every year, instead of buying 10 new $9.00 shirts made in China...but static is wrong...if the price goes up due to higher wages here, than fewer shirts are bought, and fewer workers are employed regardless, so local unemployment goes up unless they retrain themselves for something else...
The static model assumes that nothing changes in relation to the higher price, so the "assumption" of maintaining local employment is a myth...
Toys are no different...you can't justify to me paying a toy assembler $20/hour in America to make the "free" toys given out in Happy Meals...the American making the toy simply is not worth paying a decent wage for a 50 cent toy, so you outsource the work to nations making $1 per hour...this isn't politics, it is simple economic sense...
uh...you're assuming the American worker making $20 an hour is only making one shirt an hour. What if that American worker can produce 20 high-quality shirts an hour whereas the Chinese worker can only produce 10 poor-quality shirts an hour?
I think the same argument can and will be made for cars. When the Chinese get up to speed on building cars and exporting them to the USA, Toyota and Honda will not be able to pay $20+ per hour to their employees.
The $2 per hour Chinese worker vs. the $20 per hour American worker argument might be stronger if prices had nosedived when Wal Mart went to the much cheaper shirt (back when Sam Walton was alive they tried to stay as American as possible and advertised the fact).
That didn't happen. Some prices go down a bit but nothing like that scale and we sacrifice our manufacturing base for that.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
From the profits at Walmart I would say you are right. I think they are making more on a shirt that costs them less made in China. The price of tennis shoes have not come down much now that most are made in China. That is until they end up in the discount stores. Then you see the real value of the product.
What if that American worker can produce 20 high-quality shirts an hour whereas the Chinese worker can only produce 10 poor-quality shirts an hour?
Uh...that's not the reality and ain't happening.
We can assume all we want here at at least marsha's assumptions are more align to the real world here.
There are high end and low end manufactures in China just like there are here in the states, it's all about which supplier the big stores like Walmart is willing to choose. Overall speaking the labor cost in China is still far lower than it is here back home.
One bad assumption that many people made is that China can only make lower-rated goods. BMW and Audi do produce their cars over there you know...
you're assuming the American worker making $20 an hour is only making one shirt an hour.
Here's the reality... American companies are outsourcing much of their operations now. Its not just about UAW anymore, Ford has its accountants sitting in India. Why? Take a guess.
Toyota also has a Prius plant in China. No real tough pollution controls to contend with.
I see the Olympic committee is having some heartburn over the upcoming Beijing Olympics. Will the athletes survive the pollution?
Yeah, I read an interesting article in Popular Science talking about China's pollution issues. In the article it mentioned that we are also outsourcing our pollution to China along with the manufacturing jobs. The article said the US would be emitting something like 6% more greenhouse gases into the air if we all the manufacturing outsourced to China had stayed here.
I think the same argument can and will be made for cars. When the Chinese get up to speed on building cars and exporting them to the USA, Toyota and Honda will not be able to pay $20+ per hour to their employees.
Eh yes and no. Textile production and clothing manufacturing is largely a manual operation. Automotive manufacturing is largely automated using robots, etc. Most of the people on the line in the US are there because unions mandate it.
If you start replacing the Chinese workers with robots, you lose your cost savings. If you use unskilled untrained workers, you lose your quality control.
If your situation was real, then my argument fails...but your argument is fantasy, as that simply does not appear to be the case...if the American really did make 20 good shirts an hour, to the Chinese 10 poor shirts per hour, the textile industry would still be here...
Your hypothetical is really beyond fantasy, almost like asking how fast could I fly to NY if I could fly like Superman???
While this may not be a fair broad brush to use, I just do not see the productivity of American workers rising that much...if it did, all those "lost" industries would never have left, or would move back tomorrow...
But the costs of labor, as compared to the amount they produce, may never be in favor of Americans, simply because there are just too many people here, under age 60, who see employment as an entitlement or divine right, and work when they please or as hard as they need to simply to keep from being fired...until the employer realizes the borderline work and moves the plant...
Make no mistake...I do NOT like seeing our industrial base evaporate...but we are caught in a situation where many repetitive jobs in manufacturing simply do not require much skill except the ability to do the same thing over and over, which can be done by a robot or the lowest paid worker available...I am NOT denigrating those who work hard, but in the real world, somebody has to say it: putting 5 lug nuts on a wheel or sticking pins in a folded shirt does not require the same amount of brains as nuclear physics or rocket science, and as those workers demanded more money, they proced themselves right out of the market, as the finished product did not command a price that would pay their increasing wages, so their wages did not increase and the employer made a smart business move, to radically cut overhead by moving to (choose your foreign nation)...
While all honest work is respectable, sometimes it ain't worth what the workers think they ought to be paid, and assembly work is one of those types of jobs...
Thinking ahead, this is why I really fear for the future...what we really need are better educated children who will become the workers of the future with higher quality skills than simple assembly work...but when you see the high dropout rate, both whites and minorities, we will eventually have a ton of work for skilled workers and no skilled workers to do the jobs...
If inner cities think their unemployment rate is high now, while we still have some of the low skilled jobs left, wait until most jobs require a college degree or technical school training, and all we have is a population of folks who never went beyond the 9th grade and can barely read an instruction manual...
When it is obvious to anyone who is not in a coma, how can kids drop out today in the 9th/10th grade and expect to make more than minimum wage???...and raising the minimum wage is NOT the answer, as you are only raising the costs to the employer, just like the ones who moved their plants to Mexico...we need to educate the kids about more than race relations, civil rights and air pollution, as none of that will employ them in the future, altho they may make great conversationalists at birthday parties, assuming they can afford to bring a gift...
When it is obvious to anyone who is not in a coma, how can kids drop out today in the 9th/10th grade and expect to make more than minimum wage???...
Well, many of these kids can make a fortune in the underground pharmaceutical trade. Then they retire to become wards of the criminal justice system or dead.
we just need to take the Libertarian view and legalize all drugs, taking the crime profit out of it...then the kids will not be criminals and they might look for work...at minimum wage...:):):)
between state/city employees in most states also. Since they are mostly union they get COLA raises, raises every year, cadillac benefits and retirement systems.. This is not going to last forever either. In the private sector you are not gauranteed a raise every year or even a job. Governments/states/cities need to come to reality also about this "new world economy".. :surprise:
but static is wrong...if the price goes up due to higher wages here, than fewer shirts are bought
Problem is, our economy isn't static; it's dynamic. The reason that the American textile worker is making $20/hr in your example isn't because of unions demanding higher wages (although it's part of it), it's because gas is $3/gal, electrictiy went up .02/kwh, your landlord told you the rent is going up from $900 to $975. In other words, inflation.
The main reason textile work moved to the South from up here is owners realized why am I bringing raw cotton up here to refine and mfr., when I can save the trans. cost and do it down there, as well as save w/ some lower labor costs. Thats fine, I guess, but don't tell that to people in Fall River or Lawrence Mass, 2 historic textile cities up here. Now, owners get the idea that they can ship raw materials to China and back as finished product cheaper that can be done here. But, guess what; the price remains the same!!!
I just bought a pair of sneakers (Brooks is the brand, I believe), made in China, FOR $85!!! Tell me, what was my biggest expense for my $85??? Was it materials?? Labor??? Transportation??? Profit???
My guess, based on the fact that labor is so cheap in China, coupled with the fact that these companies give out multi-million dollar contracts to pro athletes is profit.
The global economy, while unavoidable, DOES depress wages in this country, as well as Illegal immigration. I think we need to find a better balance, or otherwise we're just sending our money out of the country,and the only way we'll ever see it againis when they come here and buy up our property.
Japanese in the 1980s, before their stock market crashed, they can't take the land they buy out of here, it still stays here, altho any rental profits do leave the country...
As somebody who has worked for a state government off and on for the last decade, I can assure you that the seterotype that you describe is mostly wrong. Most of the government employees I have had to deal with are well educated and hard working professionals. They have a job to do and they do it. A lot of the resentment comes from people who do not understand a lot of what the government employee has to do as a part of their job. They have all sorts of rules, regulations and policies to navigate as they are doing their job.
Also, most people only deal with government employees when there is a problem. When they are doing their job, things like foundries are not built across the street from your house. I have seen many projects like that killed due to zoning/environmental concerns. Most of the citizens around the site have no clue about what is going on. The company guys are mad and bad-mouth the officials who block it.
Then there is the tired example of the surly DOT people in the licience department. You know, if I had that job I would be grumpy too. Dealing with the general public sucks so bad it boggles my mind that anybody could do it without having a phsycotic episode. Dealing with seniors who are POd about not getting their license because they are blind, spoiled rich moron teenagers who think they are entitled to a licience because daddy got them a BMW for the sweet 16, etc... no thank you. I would rather dig ditched in Georgia with my bare hands in August than do that job.
AS far as benefits go, there is a reason why I no longer work for the sate. The pay and benefits are much better in the private sector. Much better. The only areas where the state was better than the private sector was vacation time and flexible hours. Even then it was not that much better.
Agree. I can't imagine someone thinking the public sector is better paid than the private sector. The raises are small and marginal. The benefits are trivial compared to the cars, flexible benefits for healthcare, and the retirement plan matching pay for 401k's, and on and on.
If someone thinks the public sector is so overpaid, they are welcome to go to work there.
As for working with the public contact jobs, the problem is the low behavior of the public. If I were in charge of one of those agencies, there would be a lot of police calls to remove disrespectful customers. Then the proper customers getting license plates and driver licenses could get served quicker and more politely. Even worse jobs have to be the workers in the child protection service agencies! Dealing with those bad parents has to be a riot.
Anyone thinking public sector jobs are great, contact your local offices for openings. They are awaiting your application.
I will also agree. I have known many Civil Service employees in the FAA, FCC, GSA, SS & DOD. Most of them were working just as hard as anyone in the Private sector. Pay & benefits were generally comparable to the area of expertise & location.
I think when someone rants against Government, it is the elected and appointed officials that should get the negative remarks. In many cases it is deserved.
If you want a foreign vehicle, go buy it. It all works like a process of evolution. If enough people in North America (the continent) buy the Big Three, they will remain the definition of "American cars". The momentum seems to be carrying North America into Asian cars, including Asian cars built in America by American workers. European cars sell in small numbers in America. The hand writing is on the wall. Next time you buy a car give some thought to what you are supporting beyond your immediate purchase. Most people could probably care less! :confuse:
Not only do the rental profits go, our morale goes too, seeing places like Rockafeller Center sold to foreigners (Japanese), as it was in the late '80's.
What scenario seems more likely (money being no object):
GM buying their Chinese counterpart, SAIC or,
SAIC buying GM.
I say the latter, only because OUR government is more likely to allow the sale (just like DCX) than the Chinese government would allow us to buy one of their companies.
It is things like this that our country has to put a stop to, much like they did w/ the Dubai co. buying one of the companies that controls our ports.
This may have been brought up here awhile ago, but I think it is in our best interests to TRY to purchase as many things from AMERICAN companies that are MADE HERE as POSSIBLE. That can only strengthen our corporate structures,and will keep our industries running strong with American workers. Yes, buying products made in America by foreign companies is not necessarily a BAD thing, but not as good as buying American made from American companies.
BTW Marsha, as for the $50 american shirts you were talking about, here are some UNION MADE AMERICAN SHIRTS: (Union Made) Union Made in the USA.
Skyline J180 $25.00 National J4500 $25.00 Concord $25.00
1-877-462-7710
www.unionhouse.com
P.S. sorry the pictures didn't come up. They're not Tees, they're golf/polo shirts.
they have public school teachers here that make over 100k a year(they made teachers take exit exam that all students have to take and 80% of the teachers FAILED, 64% of the students failed), police officers that also make over 100k per year, and the idiots that Work at the VA hospital don't know what they are talking about most of the time. The Division of Motor Vehicles needs to hire more people that speak english, had to go through 3 different tellers then left and went to a different office to get a teller that spoke english well enough to be understood and knew how to do the job(this is in Alaska).
Myself, my family, and my friends have been burned too many times by the big 3 (GM/Chrysler/Ford) to buy any of their products in the future unless they have a major turn around in quality and service. Go to the local Ford dealer any day and there will be someone there that is having to pay for work that should have been covered under warranty and see way too many brand new cars/trucks being taken to the shop for work, car/truck with under 1k miles should never have to be repaired unless in a wreck. someone I know is fighting with dodge dealer right now, has diesel truck that has leaking fuel pump, spraying diesel on the ground and dealer refuses to fix the problem, factory pump was replaced as it allowed air to enter fuel system (caused engine to shut down), new pump prevents air from entering fuel system (engine keeps running)but sprays fuel out(he gets around 6mpg now), this is acceptable according to the dealer.
"someone I know is fighting with dodge dealer right now, has diesel truck that has leaking fuel pump, spraying diesel on the ground and dealer refuses to fix the problem, factory pump was replaced as it allowed air to enter fuel system (caused engine to shut down), new pump prevents air from entering fuel system (engine keeps running)but sprays fuel out(he gets around 6mpg now), this is acceptable according to the dealer."
Wow he only gets 6mpg he must be really upset I mean he must be going to the gas station like every 3 days to get gas. I mean I would be upset too if the dealer didn't perform the warranty work correctly(and it sounds like thats the case here) and now he's stuck with a car that guzzles gas like crazy!
Myself, my family, and my friends have been burned too many times by the big 3 (GM/Chrysler/Ford) to buy any of their products in the future unless they have a major turn around in quality and service.
I have been burned by Toyota, Honda and Subaru. So you should understand why I buy GM products.
subaru did take a down turn in reliability after 1984, have only owned honda motorcycles (no problems), and for Toyota have a 2004 and a 2007 no problems at all with the 2004, 2007 still new. first car was a 1978 subaru GL sedan sold it with over 300k miles.
My Subaru was a 1973 coupe. Ran like a scalded cat, when it ran at all. It was my first front wheel drive and the worst car in snow I have ever driven. I did drive an AWD Subaru wagon of some sort from about 1990. It was ok, just not enough power for our steep driveway in Alaska. I think it was a Legacy. Not impressed.
Overall, I will take a GM truck over anything the Japanese have to offer.
Your explanation is exactly why we should be able to buy what we want, not what someone thinks our "obligation" is...so, while we will acknowledge that buying Japanese may send $$$ out of USA, for those who have had horrible experiences with Big 3, buying Japanese or Korean seems the logical solution...
What I find funny is that for those who were burned by the Big 3, they usually have good experiences with imports, and vice-versa...
I think you're on to something. I have long noted that type-of-buyer is very important in the equation. The Big Three vehicles suit many well, and run rather flawlessly, For other buyers, the B3 is a horror show. Go figure...
Comments
Last time I checked, Walmart was about as American as GM or Ford or Chrysler. Do you have a breakdown of those billions? How about the billions that American companies earn in exchange? If you want Americans to buy things made only by American companies, perhaps you wouldn't be averse to Europeans/Asians/Australians/Africans dimissing GM and Ford products for those very same reasons. In fact, you should be end up and be happy about it.
BTW, did those "billions" include imported oil?
That said, I've come up with a few titles for the book:
"Why we must settle for less"
"Doesn't appeal? So what?"
"How to help Lutz buy a new Yacht"
"American Corporations are next best thing to God"
"Learn to be a slave"
The ONLY reason our quality improved was that we had to face the fact that the Japanese cars were simply better than ours, and folks were tired of having their UAW-made auto sit in the shop for months at a time while they could not fix them but payments had to be made...
I still wonder if the imports are REALLY still better, or if we have caught up...latest figures give the Big 3 (Chrysler is now back in the US) only a 49.7% market share, the first time they are under 50% combined...so, while we can ARGUE quality, the market seems to be saying something on its own...folks simply do not believe that we make 'em as well, or they would be lining up to buy them...
Is it sad to see our dollars go to Japan/Korea???...yes, but when you make the second largest purchase in your life (assuming a home is the biggest) and commit to 4,5,or 6 years of payments, shouldn't you be allowed to buy the product you think is best???...SHOULDN'T THAT BE A WAKE-UP CALL TO MANAGEMENT AND THE UAW THAT THEY SIMPLY HAVE NOT DONE ENOUGH TO IMPROVE THE QUALITY, RATHER THAN CRY THAT DOLLARS ARE GOING OVERSEAS TO WHAT IS BELIEVED AND PERCEIVED TO BE SUPERIOR PRODUCTS???
Why do the Big 3 still have the image of poorer quality, over a quarter century after the Japanese invasion began in earnest (1980-1985, depending on your opinion)...altho I own a Dodge and a Ford, I will tell you that I still believe that my 1988 Prelude and Legend were the two best cars I ever owned, and that is comparing 2004 Dodge and Ford quality with 1988 Honda quality, almost 20 years ago...
Glad to see that Toyota and Honda and others continue to build plants in the US, not Mexico or elsewhere. Again, just one opinion.
American brand name cars under 2,500 pounds:
1) Chevy Aveo.
Looks like I'd be supporting the industrial base of South Korea.
Which, not to belabor the point (but I will) it seems to come down to the autoworkers union...the workers at our Toyota and Honda plants are Americans, as are many of their local suppliers...the reputation for quality that Honda and Toyota have comes from the American workers who make the product here...
What peole complain about is the product made in the UNIONIZED plants here of GM, Ford and Chrysler...aside from the poor management of Big 3, the other major variable seems to be union vs nonunion workers, i.e. those who can be fired today for bad work habits, and those who stay on the line for two years, working thru union grievance procedures, for bad work habits...
But, simply to buy GM or Ford to maintain the industrial base may seem silly if the car you buy is junk...at that point, what industrial base do you REALLY have???...more like a sham masquerading as an industrial base...
While management has its problems, I still believe that our base will improve when the unions are destroyed, removing all the procedures they use to stall the release of a worthless worker...all they do now is keep folks on the line, drunk or stoned, for up to 2 years, while pursuing sham appeals in the "grievance process"...the union protects the job while the consumer buys a Honda or Toyota...the union had better wake up, because, IMO, it is THEY who are destroying the quality of our industrial base...management can be dismissed tomorrow, but union workers stay there forever, and they make the product that Americans do not want to buy...
Does that include the UNIONIZED TOYOTA PLANT in Fremont Ca. that builds MOST of the Corollas???
I still believe that our base will improve when the unions are destroyed, removing all the procedures they use to stall the release of a worthless worker...all they do now is keep folks on the line, drunk or stoned, for up to 2 years
I don't know where you get your facts from, but the greivance process is not intended to keep the worthless worker. If they were drunk or stoned, there is VERY LITTLE CHANCE of them even becoming employed by the Big 3 (US or [non-permissible content removed]) as there are drug testing policies in place prior to hiring.
This process is intended to insure that the company has followed the guidelines set forth in a contract that THEY agreed to. They could've said no in the first place. They could've set up shop down south, or in another country, but they didn't.
You make valid points about purchasing something so significant and expensive, that it should be the best you can buy for your money. But be careful what you wish for; China has been sending over some real crap lately. Yes, it may have been put together properly, but contaminated pet food??? Toothpaste???? Lead in Toddlers toys??? Children's jewelry???? If we continue to allow all our mfr. base to go overseas, and those countries are much more slack on their regulations, how are we going to be able to get these products we want and need at any price if they won't meet our standards????
When I lived in Detroit, for 10 years, THAT was the primary purpose of the union, to keep worthless workers on the line with stalling tactics like "grievance appeals" just like lawyers who continually appeal to keep their guilty clients out of prison...
Yes the company may have agreed to it, but poor management decisions like that are simply another reason to buy other-than-American products...so we can avoid the worthless union worker AND the stupid management that signed an agreement that allowed the worthless worker to stay on the line longer than 24 hours after his binge...thanks for the additional reason, would never have thought of it myself...
I have serious questions about China products...while "made in japan" was a joke in the 1960s, as we bought little Sony transistor radios with tinny speakers, they certainly upgraded their products over the years, and they became more expensive to buy that quality...
I really wonder if China will always be the place for cheap junk, as I do not expect WalMart to start buying $50 shirts from China...Japan was used to supplement American products years ago, and they became a force to be reckoned with...
Somehow I do not see China making cars like Benz, Lexus, etc, and I envision them as always the lower end of the trash market...I could certainly be wrong, of course, but I do not see China following the 50 year track that Japan followed...I have been wrong before and this could be my biggest error yet, but I simply see China on the lower end, and there may be a backlash if their products turn out to be harmful to children and pets...
Lets face it...if we stopped buying China toys and dangerous stuff from Walmart, they would react very quickly...unlike automakers, who seem to need 5 years to change a headlight design, Walmart could force major changes in less than 30 days, because they HAVE a responsive management that understands their marketing like Einstein understood e=mc2...
I may purchase japanese autos, but I still have questions about China...
Aside from small junk, are they really the threat you are afraid of???...after all, one small recession in the US, and China's factories are mothballed...
Your thoughts???
That's a welcome theory in view of today's news:
"He Fan, an official at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, went even further today, letting it be known that Beijing had the power to set off a dollar collapse if it choose to do so."
China threatens 'nuclear option' of dollar sales (Telegraph.co.uk)
It certainly blows out of the water those claiming the Chinese currency has been and is undervalued.
It also blows out of the water those saying it's perfectly OK for money to go to the foreign-based companies because they reinvest it in the US as in T-bills and bonds.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We can complain about the Chinese taking our textile industry from the South, but who will pay $50-60 for a simple casual short sleeve shirt made by $20/hour American workers???...while I am not the sole determinant of what someone's labor is worth, apparently the market is saying that there are not enough regular folks who will buy 5 shirts for $50 each...the MARKET, not me, has stated that it is not worth paying an American $20/hour to make cotton shirts...that is why WalMart is selling shirts for $9.00, because the Chinese labor is $1-2/hour, and Americans want $20/hour, and the shirts just sit on the shelves as the average person will NOT spend $50 for a shirt...so, is China the problem, or Americans who simply believe that a shirt simply ain't worth that much???
Can you blame someone who would rather buy a $9.00 shirt, so the work leaves the US???...do you have the right to MANDATE that folks buy $50 shirts to guarantee that we keep the textile industry here???
If Americans did the work here and kept the jobs here, everything would probably cost double or more, which would drive inflation much higher, or, folks would only buy 1 shirt instead of five, so the shirt assembly lines would only be making 1/5 the shirts, and folks would lose their jobs anyway, as there would not be a need for them...either way, the American job is lost, except right now you can point to China, whereas if the industry stayed her at $20/hour, you would just see big factories hiring few people and the same local unemployment...
There must be consequences...when folks lament the loss of textiles (to use my example) they assume, wrongly, a static example, assuming that everyone would buy 10 new $50 shirts every year, instead of buying 10 new $9.00 shirts made in China...but static is wrong...if the price goes up due to higher wages here, than fewer shirts are bought, and fewer workers are employed regardless, so local unemployment goes up unless they retrain themselves for something else...
The static model assumes that nothing changes in relation to the higher price, so the "assumption" of maintaining local employment is a myth...
Toys are no different...you can't justify to me paying a toy assembler $20/hour in America to make the "free" toys given out in Happy Meals...the American making the toy simply is not worth paying a decent wage for a 50 cent toy, so you outsource the work to nations making $1 per hour...this isn't politics, it is simple economic sense...
That didn't happen. Some prices go down a bit but nothing like that scale and we sacrifice our manufacturing base for that.
Uh...that's not the reality and ain't happening.
We can assume all we want here at at least marsha's assumptions are more align to the real world here.
There are high end and low end manufactures in China just like there are here in the states, it's all about which supplier the big stores like Walmart is willing to choose. Overall speaking the labor cost in China is still far lower than it is here back home.
One bad assumption that many people made is that China can only make lower-rated goods. BMW and Audi do produce their cars over there you know...
Here's the reality... American companies are outsourcing much of their operations now. Its not just about UAW anymore, Ford has its accountants sitting in India. Why? Take a guess.
I see the Olympic committee is having some heartburn over the upcoming Beijing Olympics. Will the athletes survive the pollution?
They like tandora chicken and curry?
I see the Olympic committee is having some heartburn over the upcoming Beijing Olympics. Will the athletes survive the pollution?
Yeah, I read an interesting article in Popular Science talking about China's pollution issues. In the article it mentioned that we are also outsourcing our pollution to China along with the manufacturing jobs. The article said the US would be emitting something like 6% more greenhouse gases into the air if we all the manufacturing outsourced to China had stayed here.
Eh yes and no. Textile production and clothing manufacturing is largely a manual operation. Automotive manufacturing is largely automated using robots, etc. Most of the people on the line in the US are there because unions mandate it.
If you start replacing the Chinese workers with robots, you lose your cost savings. If you use unskilled untrained workers, you lose your quality control.
Your hypothetical is really beyond fantasy, almost like asking how fast could I fly to NY if I could fly like Superman???
While this may not be a fair broad brush to use, I just do not see the productivity of American workers rising that much...if it did, all those "lost" industries would never have left, or would move back tomorrow...
But the costs of labor, as compared to the amount they produce, may never be in favor of Americans, simply because there are just too many people here, under age 60, who see employment as an entitlement or divine right, and work when they please or as hard as they need to simply to keep from being fired...until the employer realizes the borderline work and moves the plant...
Make no mistake...I do NOT like seeing our industrial base evaporate...but we are caught in a situation where many repetitive jobs in manufacturing simply do not require much skill except the ability to do the same thing over and over, which can be done by a robot or the lowest paid worker available...I am NOT denigrating those who work hard, but in the real world, somebody has to say it: putting 5 lug nuts on a wheel or sticking pins in a folded shirt does not require the same amount of brains as nuclear physics or rocket science, and as those workers demanded more money, they proced themselves right out of the market, as the finished product did not command a price that would pay their increasing wages, so their wages did not increase and the employer made a smart business move, to radically cut overhead by moving to (choose your foreign nation)...
While all honest work is respectable, sometimes it ain't worth what the workers think they ought to be paid, and assembly work is one of those types of jobs...
Thinking ahead, this is why I really fear for the future...what we really need are better educated children who will become the workers of the future with higher quality skills than simple assembly work...but when you see the high dropout rate, both whites and minorities, we will eventually have a ton of work for skilled workers and no skilled workers to do the jobs...
If inner cities think their unemployment rate is high now, while we still have some of the low skilled jobs left, wait until most jobs require a college degree or technical school training, and all we have is a population of folks who never went beyond the 9th grade and can barely read an instruction manual...
When it is obvious to anyone who is not in a coma, how can kids drop out today in the 9th/10th grade and expect to make more than minimum wage???...and raising the minimum wage is NOT the answer, as you are only raising the costs to the employer, just like the ones who moved their plants to Mexico...we need to educate the kids about more than race relations, civil rights and air pollution, as none of that will employ them in the future, altho they may make great conversationalists at birthday parties, assuming they can afford to bring a gift...
Well, many of these kids can make a fortune in the underground pharmaceutical trade. Then they retire to become wards of the criminal justice system or dead.
Problem is, our economy isn't static; it's dynamic. The reason that the American textile worker is making $20/hr in your example isn't because of unions demanding higher wages (although it's part of it), it's because gas is $3/gal, electrictiy went up .02/kwh, your landlord told you the rent is going up from $900 to $975. In other words, inflation.
The main reason textile work moved to the South from up here is owners realized why am I bringing raw cotton up here to refine and mfr., when I can save the trans. cost and do it down there, as well as save w/ some lower labor costs. Thats fine, I guess, but don't tell that to people in Fall River or Lawrence Mass, 2 historic textile cities up here.
Now, owners get the idea that they can ship raw materials to China and back as finished product cheaper that can be done here. But, guess what; the price remains the same!!!
I just bought a pair of sneakers (Brooks is the brand, I believe), made in China, FOR $85!!! Tell me, what was my biggest expense for my $85??? Was it materials?? Labor??? Transportation??? Profit???
My guess, based on the fact that labor is so cheap in China, coupled with the fact that these companies give out multi-million dollar contracts to pro athletes is profit.
The global economy, while unavoidable, DOES depress wages in this country, as well as Illegal immigration. I think we need to find a better balance, or otherwise we're just sending our money out of the country,and the only way we'll ever see it againis when they come here and buy up our property.
Also, most people only deal with government employees when there is a problem. When they are doing their job, things like foundries are not built across the street from your house. I have seen many projects like that killed due to zoning/environmental concerns. Most of the citizens around the site have no clue about what is going on. The company guys are mad and bad-mouth the officials who block it.
Then there is the tired example of the surly DOT people in the licience department. You know, if I had that job I would be grumpy too. Dealing with the general public sucks so bad it boggles my mind that anybody could do it without having a phsycotic episode. Dealing with seniors who are POd about not getting their license because they are blind, spoiled rich moron teenagers who think they are entitled to a licience because daddy got them a BMW for the sweet 16, etc... no thank you. I would rather dig ditched in Georgia with my bare hands in August than do that job.
AS far as benefits go, there is a reason why I no longer work for the sate. The pay and benefits are much better in the private sector. Much better. The only areas where the state was better than the private sector was vacation time and flexible hours. Even then it was not that much better.
If someone thinks the public sector is so overpaid, they are welcome to go to work there.
As for working with the public contact jobs, the problem is the low behavior of the public. If I were in charge of one of those agencies, there would be a lot of police calls to remove disrespectful customers. Then the proper customers getting license plates and driver licenses could get served quicker and more politely. Even worse jobs have to be the workers in the child protection service agencies! Dealing with those bad parents has to be a riot.
Anyone thinking public sector jobs are great, contact your local offices for openings. They are awaiting your application.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think when someone rants against Government, it is the elected and appointed officials that should get the negative remarks. In many cases it is deserved.
MODERATOR
Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review
1. Buying cars built in the United States (some people also include Mexico and Canada, I personally don't agree)
2. Buying the American brand cars, i.e. the Big 3.
What scenario seems more likely (money being no object):
GM buying their Chinese counterpart, SAIC or,
SAIC buying GM.
I say the latter, only because OUR government is more likely to allow the sale (just like DCX) than the Chinese government would allow us to buy one of their companies.
It is things like this that our country has to put a stop to, much like they did w/ the Dubai co. buying one of the companies that controls our ports.
This may have been brought up here awhile ago, but I think it is in our best interests to TRY to purchase as many things from AMERICAN companies that are MADE HERE as POSSIBLE. That can only strengthen our corporate structures,and will keep our industries running strong with American workers. Yes, buying products made in America by foreign companies is not necessarily a BAD thing, but not as good as buying American made from American companies.
BTW Marsha, as for the $50 american shirts you were talking about, here are some UNION MADE AMERICAN SHIRTS:
(Union Made)
Union Made in the USA.
Skyline J180
$25.00
National J4500
$25.00
Concord
$25.00
1-877-462-7710
www.unionhouse.com
P.S. sorry the pictures didn't come up. They're not Tees, they're golf/polo shirts.
Go to the local Ford dealer any day and there will be someone there that is having to pay for work that should have been covered under warranty and see way too many brand new cars/trucks being taken to the shop for work, car/truck with under 1k miles should never have to be repaired unless in a wreck.
someone I know is fighting with dodge dealer right now, has diesel truck that has leaking fuel pump, spraying diesel on the ground and dealer refuses to fix the problem, factory pump was replaced as it allowed air to enter fuel system (caused engine to shut down), new pump prevents air from entering fuel system (engine keeps running)but sprays fuel out(he gets around 6mpg now), this is acceptable according to the dealer.
Wow he only gets 6mpg he must be really upset I mean he must be going to the gas station like every 3 days to get gas. I mean I would be upset too if the dealer didn't perform the warranty work correctly(and it sounds like thats the case here) and now he's stuck with a car that guzzles gas like crazy!
I have been burned by Toyota, Honda and Subaru. So you should understand why I buy GM products.
first car was a 1978 subaru GL sedan sold it with over 300k miles.
Overall, I will take a GM truck over anything the Japanese have to offer.
What I find funny is that for those who were burned by the Big 3, they usually have good experiences with imports, and vice-versa...