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Comments
my preference is maximize the mileage component of a hybrid. that's why i compared it to a 4cyl.
everyone has their own perspective.
If the tax credit doesn't work, lie to her (kidding). It will still be worth it. And don't worry just about everybody gets screwed on a trade. Hopefully you're not in one of the areas I see on here that are charging $3000 over MSRP. I'd never go for that one. I still think if Toyota plans to make 40,000 of these a year the pricing will settle out to mild discounts when every lot has a couple sitting there. If a dealer can get all they can sell, they will discount some.
I was real lucky on my trade (info on previous posts). I hated to get rid of the FX45, best car I've ever owned. But I don't need three cars and if I kept it I probably wouldn't drive it more than 4000 miles a year and I'd still be paying 100/mo for the insurance, not to count the payment. Tough but good decision.
Trading almost even got me up 4 model years, 22 better mpg and in a car I find "interesting" enough to keep me happy. My wife has not had a car (not counting my sports cars)since our first SUV in 1991. She started liking the car , as I knew she would, after about the first couple of trips into town.
Make sure you check you state tax credits, if available. My total credits are $6300.
The transmission (actually power splitting device) reminds me of when I have the hiccups and they dissapear and I'm waiting for them to come back. You push the gas you hear it wind up and the car accelerates, let off and it slows down, but I keep expecting a "shift". I always wanted to test drive an Audi when CTV's first came out to experience it, but it's a weird feeling.
Toyota says not to tow, but I can't imagine any vehicle not being able to pull 1500#. I still have a 4Runner to pull my jet skis and my John Deere. (By the way my Seadoo has 215hp, more than my hybrid)
ONE OTHER THING for all of you nervous types. The first time you're on a side street or in a parking lot and you have to pull out quickly in front of oncoming traffic. You'll find it a little errie when you're sitting there and the car is completely quiet, no engine, no motor running and you have to mash down on the gas to pull out. It's like jumping in cold water, you want to hesitate but know it will be OK. Just do it.
The TCH as you note is just at $30400.
Your XLE V6 price is certainly very good and better than most.
I will put in my complaint...
I have been waiting for a whole week. Why hasn't mine shown up yet??
One of my 4 dealers should be calling any minute now!
Compared to the 4c yes, same as the V6 (in most areas). I drove the 4cSE prior to the TCH and probably wouldn't consider it, especially trading down from my FX.
i don't know how many tch's are expected to be produced
Based on the %'age projections of TCH's to total Camry's it should be around 40,000 TCH's
With just the $2600 credit the TCH would still appeal to me. Even if I would fall under the AMT (pretty sure I won't) I'd still get my State $3750 tax credit. At least in my state this alone makes it a good deal
In your analysis, which is somewhat inaccurate, how much did you allow for the V6 power? Typically a V6 is 'worth' about $2000 more than a 4c.
The TCH as you note is just at $30400."
What is "Z1"?
Any way I'm guessing from some of your posts you were enjoying it as much as I did.
Heh...
My "hot-rod" Yamaha GP1200R had 155 HP. I thought it was fast.
And unfortunately, Michigan S.B. 14 (proposed $1000 tax credit for alternate energy vehicles) has been stalled in a Finance Committee since January of 2005.
I would say that the premium for the extra power in the Hybrid is $1000.
I figure this because the V6 Camry is $2000 more expensive than the 4 cyl. Camry, similarly equipped. Since the Hybrid's performance is about halfway between those the V6 and the 4 cyl., the "premium" would be halway as well, hence $1000.
This is exactly what I'm doing as well. Except I'm keeping the stock rims for winter (snow) driving. I wish there was a way to disable the tire pressure monitor all together, that way I wouldn't have to crack open the factory set.
You proved me wrong. Awesome.
Just curious - why the removal of the badges? :confuse:
You are talking about MSRP.
What is relevant/comparable is the actual price paid!!!!!!!
Fully loaded XLE 4cyl - $26,000 at $300 over dealer invoice.
Fully Loaded (with smart key) XLE V6 - $28,300 at $300 over dealer invoice
Fully Loaded Hybrid - MSRP less $500 = $30,089.
I'll let you do the math and find the XLE features that are not on the Hybrid.
For those who have the AMT issue, please note that the recent tax legislation passed by Congress and signed by the President contained some new tax laws on AMT. You may want to check these news laws out to see if they apply to your specific situation. However, I did not read the new tax law with respect to the AMT issue closely.
Kdhspyder - Any special financing program available this weekend? I will go through Costco financing or a local CU - so it may not be an issue.
The tiny trunk is probably going to wipe the TCH off many people's shopping lists when they see it.
The hybrid gets the standard push button starter but loses multiple other features vs an XLE in return.
You can get a significant discount on an XLE 4 cylinder right now. Don't know about invoice right now, but certainly in 6 months. In 6 months the hybrid still will not be discounted due to trivial production volume which leads to extremely poor availability. So comparing MSRP to MSRP is not valid.
Also, you should be comparing to XLE 4 cylinder, not V6 anyway. Just because the hybrid has more power than a 4 cylinder ICE, doesn't make it anywhere as smooth and silky as the V6 engine. There is also a bigger power difference between the V6 and hybrid than there is between the 4 cylinder ICE and the 4 cylinder hybrid.
I think you're missing the point of my post. It doesn't compare the features or street prices.
It's purely a simple exercise in the "premium" that the Hybrid should deserve for its power advantage over the 4 cyl.
It's another way of asking, if the mpg of the hybrid and the 4 cyl. were the same, and the features were the same, how much more would people pay "purely" for the better power?
My opinion was that it is $1000 (half of $2000), since Toyota prices the V6 at a $2000 premium over the 4 cyl., and the Hybrid's performance is about halfway between the 4 cyl. and V6.
I understand that the two cars cannot be featured exactly the same in the real world, such as the smaller trunk, so it's a hypothetical.
No. If I get a flat in the snow I'll just drive it off a cliff or something...LOL.
The loss of trunk space and loss of pass-through or fold-down makes the car less attractive.
It can hold more passengers than it can hold luggage for.
You can't use it to pick people up at the airport in, ect..
You can't fit long obects from Home Depot that could even fit in the trunk of a little Civic with folding seats.
If you think the Camry hybrid trunk is bad, you should take a look at the GS450h trunk. The regular GS's trunk is bad to begin with (worst in its class), and the hybrid version makes the trunk pretty much worthless.
The 4c wasn't enough, the hybrid was adeguate or better and the V6 is awesome. You are trying to get this down to a $4/hp difference and it's not that easy. Think about the people paying $4500 for a TRD supercharger for an additional 75 hp??? It's either satisfying or it's not, reguardless of cost.
If I didn't want the economy of the hybrid then my only choice would be the V6. I couldn't live with the 4c (other than like those of you using it as a pure commuter). The V6 and 4c don't have enough of a difference in FE for me to chose the 4c, even at a $2000 premium.
I have to be able to enjoy the drive and the 4c doesn't do it for me.
It doesn't do anything.
"Badges? We don't need no steeenking badges!" (sorry, couldn't resist)
He already posted it was all about aesthetics.
Thanks for showing your immaturity as usual. Perhaps one day you will realize that what REALLY doesn't add any value is to go around saying that other poster's posts are useless.
I may find your posts to be pointless at times, but won't remark on it to that effect.
The tiny trunk is probably going to wipe the TCH off many people's shopping lists when they see it.
The hybrid gets the standard push button starter but loses multiple other features vs an XLE in return.
Agreed about the trunk being smaller but as a deal-killer it probably depends on the use. As a refined and economical commuter for an upscale/concerned driver the trunk has minimal in most cases. As a family hauler it's critical I agree. The TCH is probably the wrong vehicle for that use.
You can get a significant discount on an XLE 4 cylinder right now. Don't know about invoice right now, but certainly in 6 months. In 6 months the hybrid still will not be discounted due to trivial production volume which leads to extremely poor availability. So comparing MSRP to MSRP is not valid.
As in all products the market will speak and determine the value of each product. We'll have to see what the market does. 70-90,000 TCH's planned for next yr. It will be a significant enough number to say that the market has put a true value on it.
Also, you should be comparing to XLE 4 cylinder, not V6 anyway. Just because the hybrid has more power than a 4 cylinder ICE, doesn't make it anywhere as smooth and silky as the V6 engine. There is also a bigger power difference between the V6 and hybrid than there is between the 4 cylinder ICE and the 4 cylinder hybrid.
If you haven't drive it yet you should. The TCH is definitely as smooth or smoother in a different way than the ICE V6. As powerful? Nope. But here's an interesting set of facts to mull over.
GAME: Match the vehicle with the stats
All these were taken from comparo's here except one. One should be obvious.
All 'V6' powertrains... Performance Stats 0-60 and 1/4 mi
1. 04 Camry ......... A.) 7.3 sec - 15.6 sec @ 92 mph
2. 04 Galant......... B.) 7.3 sec - 15.6 sec @ 90
3. 06 Accord......... C.) 7.6 sec - 15.8 sec @ 90
4. 07 TCH............ D.) 7.6 sec - 15.6 sec @ 91
5. 04 Sebring........ E.) 6.5 sec - 14.6 sec @ 97
6. 07 Camry.......... F.) 7.7 sec - 15.7 sec @ 90
7. 06 Fusion......... G.) 8.7 sec - 16.6 sec @ 84
8. 06 Sonata......... H.) 7.4 sec - 15.6 sec @ 90
9. 04 Malibu.......... I.) 8.3 sec - 16.2 sec @ 87
Match the 'V6' vehicles to their respective stats. Answers to follow.
The 4c wasn't enough, the hybrid was adeguate or better and the V6 is awesome. You are trying to get this down to a $4/hp difference and it's not that easy.
Agreed. Different people would place different premiums on extra power. I was simply extrapolating from $2000, since that is what Toyota thinks the premium should be for its V6 over the 4 cyl.
For me, a V6 would be the minimum, because I've been used to V6 power all my life. Then again, one of the cars we had before was a 1997 ES300, which was probably about the same as the Camry Hybrid in terms of power. But engines keep getting stronger and stronger, with today's V6s outperforming yesteryear's V8's, and so on.
There is a threshhold though regarding the 4c. Will anyone actually pay $29500 for a fully loaded 4c XLE? Not likely, so IMO there will few if any made. In this upper $20K range one or two thousand dollars is not really significant. 'For the extra $2K let's just go with the V6 it's so much better'
This is what I really like about hybrids, and a big reason why I like V6's over 4 cyl. The extra power is nice and useful when merging and passing, but pulling away from a stoplight I'll probably accelerate the same whether I'm in a V6 or a 4 cyl. It is the smoothness and refinement of a V6 that I appreciate during all driving situations.
However, the Camry Hybrid DOES HAVE the 60/40 fold-down rear seat. I know, I looked at one and folded both sections down today.
That being said, I was surprised by how much trunk space is taken by the battery pack. But it's not a deal breaker for us.
Later,
GB
1. 04 Camry ......... C.) 7.6 sec - 15.8 sec 90 mph
2. 04 Galant......... E.) 7.3 sec - 15.6 sec 97
3. 06 Accord......... F.) 7.6 sec - 15.6 sec 91
4. 07 TCH............ D.) 7.3 sec - 15.6 sec 92*
5. 04 Sebring........ H.) 8.7 sec - 16.6 sec 84
6. 07 Camry.......... I.) 6.5 sec - 14.6 sec 97
7. 06 Fusion......... G.) 7.7 sec - 15.7 sec 90
8. 06 Sonata......... B.) 7.4 sec - 15.6 sec 90
9. 04 Malibu..........A.) 8.3 sec - 16.2 sec 87
*R&T 'The Hybrid Payoff',May 2006, track results.
All other values from Edmunds V6 Midsized Comparos '04 and '06
Outside of one being noticably quicker all the rest are in the same range.
I know of one where it was ...
1. 1/4 ton pickup
2.
Addon as you wish..
2. 04 Galant......... E.) 7.3 sec - 15.6 sec 97
3. 06 Accord......... F.) 7.6 sec - 15.6 sec 91
4. 07 TCH............ D.) 7.3 sec - 15.6 sec 92*
5. 04 Sebring........ H.) 8.7 sec - 16.6 sec 84
6. 07 Camry.......... I.) 6.5 sec - 14.6 sec 97
7. 06 Fusion......... G.) 7.7 sec - 15.7 sec 90
8. 06 Sonata......... B.) 7.4 sec - 15.6 sec 90
9. 04 Malibu..........A.) 8.3 sec - 16.2 sec 87"
Ahhh... but done at different times and at different conditions and by a different publication in the case of the Camry Hybrid.
For example, Edmunds can get 6.0s for the G35 in one test and a couple years later, get 7.0s for the exact same car. That's a pretty big difference.
There's zero chance that the Camry Hybrid will outaccelerate the V6 Accord or the V6 Sonata side by side in the real world.
Since it is rare that someone will test all of the cars at the same time, I like to use the best time that a car got (although this method has faults as well.)
Both the Sonata and the Accord got 6.5s in a recent magazine comparo.
I expect a magazine to test the V6 Camry in the low 6's, since the Avalon got as low as 6.1s.
There have been two timed tests of the Camry Hybrid, R&T as you mentioned got 7.3s and C&D got 7.7s. Since those are usually the publications with the fastest "triggers", it is unlikely that the Camry Hybrid will improve upon that time.
Whereas I do think the trunk size is important and will be a turn off to some consumers, the TCH has a fairly decent size trunk, although it could never be considered "oversized".
I happen to be a family hauler and have chosed the TCH. I am able easily fit a double-stroller along withpackages/bags from one of my wife's worst shopping sprees.
As far as picking people up from the airport, if I was the solo driver I can easily pick up two people. One person would sit in the passenger seat. The other in the rear seat. Tons of baggage can then be divided between the trunk and a fold-down seat.
This car may be a problem on Christmas at the in-laws when kids are taking the rear with their car seats and you have tote home gifts such as wagons and tricycles or something of that sort...but it's still doable...it's not like it's a motorcycle
1/2 ton pickup, F150 V8 auto, owned 20 years, 250K miles :surprise:
First test: 37 PSI in all tires
Result: 39.5 MPG
Second test: 46 PSI front; 44 PSI rear
Result 42.3 MPG
Does this cause premature tread wear on the tires?
Are there any other possible drawbacks to over-inflating the tires?
99% of the time in our cars is ALONE with no stuff in the trunk
most people rarely use their back seats for more than taking their children
when's the last time any of us has sat in someone's back seat? I bet I haven't been in a backseat in 5 years.
People think they need all this utility, so they buy an SUV, and they never use that utility, but they COULD if they had to.......all at 16 mpg. Put that money in the bank and rent a minivan when you need to pick someone up at the airport. Or rent a car for your out of town guests. You'll come out ahead in the short and long run.
I'm not saying the TCH will work for a family of 5 going on a road trip. It won't.
A roof box is a great idea for extending the capacity of any vehicle. It's better to do that, and use it when you need it, than to carry around all that extra capacity every bleedin' day, killing your mpg and costing you money money money. (yes, I know, roof boxes cost money, too)
also i think that too much tire pressure might increase emergency stopping distance or reduce grip on wet or snowy roads. imho 46 psi is too much tire pressure. i would never go above 38 cold PSI. (i try to keep them at 34 psi).
Wow how we have progressed (?) from one vehicle for a six-person family to several special-utilization vehicles for a
I know of one where it was ...
1. 1/4 ton pickup
2. 1/2 ton pickup ( 20 yrs old )
3. Honda Element
4.
Addon as you wish..
picked up my Titanium TCH last night (base model) and I love it already - will be having leather installed soon
My "rules" for buying a new car were 1) must get better gas mileage than my current car and 2) must be as big/safe as my current car -- otherwise there was really no "need" to buy a new car. That pretty much ruled out everything except the TCH!