Toyota Camry Hybrid

wvgasguy

why don't you look at driving a VW diesel

At that many miles I would have to agree. I'm saying I'll be satisfied if my batteries last 200,000 miles because that's probably 130,000 miles past my ownership anyway. However if it was a worry as some indicate and I drove 60,000 miles a year a diesel makes a lot of sense.

wvgasguy

Unless we change our habits, we will run out of this non-renewable source of energy.

Someone may run out someday, but I don't think we'll run out of oil any time soon. However we may be SHUT OFF from foreign oil real soon (you may not if you're in Canada). Again probably off topic, but you have a legitimate concern from a large group of like thinkers.

wvgasguy

Why is 0-60 times important to anyone trying to save fuel?

Probably a valid concern for someone that drives 60,000 miles a year in traffic.

However I don't know that the car exists that he is looking for. As you look back at what all he likes and dislikes about cars he's considered, I don't think there exists a car that would make the list.

Low depreciation (even after 180,000 miles)
Has to be relatively quick
Has to have good FE
Has to be quiet
Has to be smooth riding
Has to have skid control
Has to have satellite radio WITH steering wheel controls
Don't want to smell diesel fuel

Both from a dead stop or out on the highway where it really shines. Sorry gagrice, I don't believe the auto magazines or any testers would agree with you here. I think Hamm3r has it right on this being one slow car. maybe acceptable, especially considering its purpose, but "shines" in acceleration?

sandetm

Last week I made a post indicating that my new TCH was the first new vehicle I had ever purchased that didn't have some sort of fit and finish or minor problem that needed to be fixed. I was gently accused of being a homer and only sharing the positive and no negative impressions. Truth was, I didn't have any negative impressions. That has changed... I've had my Barcelona Red TCH now for about 10 days and have put about 600 mi on it. Averaging about 39 mpg. Like some others I have gone from being the guy doing 70 or 80 in the left lane to looking for a truck doing 60 in the right lane to drop in behind, otherwise I keep right to the speed limit.

Anyway to get to the paint issue, this weekend I was putting a coat of wax on it and noticed a strip of paint along the bottom of the door panels that quite frankly was one of the worst examples of orange peel I think I have seen on a new vehicle. I hadn't noticed it before, maybe my eyes may have been clouded with euphoria. I don't know but I really didn't expect to see that from Toyota. Obviously a portion of their paint process was out of control when mine was painted. For the most part, I think the paint is very good, just a strip about 4-5 inches wide along the lower door panels on both sides of the car (passenger side a little better than drivers side). Wondering if anyone else has seen the same thing. Maybe I'm just picky when it comes to paint, but I think this is something Toyota would want to fix if it's consistent. Certainly not going to have the dealer repaint it. Odds are it would come out worse.

wvgasguy

Wanted 190 in. size

WoW I thought hamm3r was picky in what he wanted in a car, but 190 inches? (Is your parking space paid for by the inch?)

I drove the Avalon and I agree it feels bigger, but it's not that much bigger outside than the TCH. I would have probably went for one had they offered the hybrid in that model. However it bing longer than 190 inches did not get it marked off my list.

wvgasguy

Are you talking about the bottom of the doors OR the panel that runs the length of the car that's located below the dorrs (about 4" high from wheel to wheel).

Most all cars have chip resistant paint in these areas if that's what you're talking about. Many cars makers simply choose to paint this area black and some people may prefer that. I have not looked closely at my TCH, but I would suspect that is the case as just about every new vehicle I've had since the 80's has had this protection OR black panels.

I'm still debating adding the SE ground effects package to my hybrid. That would solve that.

hamm3r

As I was driving my TCH in heavy rush hour traffic the other day I came to realize EPA estimates or even your own MPG quotes do not completely do justice to the hybrid.

These thoughts occurred to me as I came to complete stops in traffic for up to two minutes on multiple occassions.

Whereas "yes" your MPG calculations or the computer readout may be fairly accurate in terms of how many miles you can actually drive per gallon, they do not account for the much greater differential that occurs when the vehicles must idle in traffic.

The fact that the engine actually turns off when you are stopped in traffic does not fit into any calculations. It felt pretty good to be sitting there burning NO fuel whatsoever. At the same time...it was tough to consider all of the engines running...sitting there burning gas while idling.

gagrice

I assume being in a hybrid forum discussing a Camry hybrid that most of the folks are not interested in seeing how fast they can get from light to light. Getting the most for your petrol dollar would be the goal. If not why not keep the luxury vehicles many have given up to buy the TCH.

kdhspyder

As wvgasguy noted above this is a special application of paint and plastic (?) which is super durable to assist in keeping road debris from flying up and chipping the rocker panels.

It's intentional and it's on all Toyota's and probably most modern vehicle. Check it out at a couple of lots.

Remember back in the 70's and 80's when ( Japanese ) vehicles would run forever but they would rust out from the rocker panels upward? This avoids all that.

hamm3r

I assume being in a hybrid forum discussing a Camry hybrid that most of the folks are not interested in seeing how fast they can get from light to light.

You are making an incorrect assumption that the need for better than the worst performance of the Jetta TDI equates with the need to floor it from light to light.

wvgasguy

most of the folks are not interested in seeing how fast they can get from light to light.

True, but I have minimum standards. I won't drive a slug no matter what it saves. The TCH has much more than acceptable acceleration and I'm used to cars that do. I'm not dissapointed in that aspect of the TCH at all.

However "light to light" is not my concern. Pulling out to pass on a two lane and having a truck pop up in the horizon is a concern.

hybridriver

The fact that the engine actually turns off when you are stopped in traffic does not fit into any calculations. It felt pretty good to be sitting there burning NO fuel whatsoever. At the same time...it was tough to consider all of the engines running...sitting there burning gas while idling.

Actually, auto stop DOES fit into the MPG calculations, improving them markedly. But your point is well-taken, in that the absence of vibration and noise when the engine is stopped are further benefits to this wonderful feature of hybrids.

erwinhibbs

All this talk about gas milage and no mention of air-conditioning... How much does this affect mileage in these cars?In City? on highway?

hybridriver

I know I will be chastised for saying this... at least in this catagory... but if you drive so much highway, why don't you look at driving a VW diesel Jetta...rides nice...engines ment to last the long mileage... and I hear the they are quieter then gassers at 70mph.

Counter-arguments:

1) Diesels are not legal in California.
2) Diesels are more polluting than gas engines.
3) You'll own a VW. (I loved my old GTI, but VW build quality and service are nowhere near Japanese standards, IMO)
4) At 70 mph, wind and tire noise are probably as or more significant than engine noise.

sandetm

No, this is definitely the door panels not the rocker panels. The orange peel runs from about an inch above the bottom of the door. If you look you will see that about 3 inches from the bottom of the door the panel starts to indent and curve in. The orange peel runs about an inch and a half below and above that ridge. The bottom of the door and below are much smoother. I know what you mean though, I've had a car or two that I undercoated almost up to the door for protection and I've seen models from the mfg where this was done, but I don't think that is what's happening here, otherwise I would think it would be all the way to the bottom of the door and on the under panel as well. I'm going to check a couple lots, but wondering if a couple of you would look at yours as well as what I find on the lots will not be hybrids and probably produced in KY.

Not wanting to assume anything what I mean by orange peel is a rough surface in the paint that resembles the outside skin of an orange. Almost any vehicle is going to have some degree of orange peel. It's very difficult to get the gun set just right and then get just the right amount of paint applied to be perfectly smooth. This is just more pronounced than I would have expected.

Wasn't aware you could add the SE ground affects. I would be interested in that as well. Is that an aftermarket bolt on? I haven't seen an SE up close, but had one pass me the other day and the ground effects appeared to be all part of the body panels.

hybridriver

All this talk about gas milage and no mention of airconditioning... How much does this affect mileage in these cars?

Based on my experience, probably no more than a 5% hit on gas mileage, maybe more in extreme heat.

bmgoodman

Any chance of some close up shots of this effect? I want to be sure I know what you're referring to, so I can carefully check mine pre-delivery. Thanks.

erwinhibbs

In heavy traffic in city does Hybrid stay cool inside and warm in winter?

sandetm

I'll see if I can get a good picture of it in the next day or two.

wvgasguy

I'll look at my doors tonight and inspect the paint.

Wasn't aware you could add the SE ground affects
You can do anything with money. I'm guessing the parts are simply taped on, but don't know. They should be available as soon as demand dies down.

wvgasguy

In heavy traffic in city does Hybrid stay cool inside and warm in winter?

In the lot at a drive in eatery my car stayed cool even in the ECO mode (it was about 80F). However the ICE did kick on from time to time to charge the battery. That's still got to be better than leaving the car idleing all the time just to run the A/C.

bnewins

Well I actually keep my cars in the garage. The new Avalon would fit, but it was a little tight. The Prius we got 2 wks. ago is only 175 inches and gives you lots of extra room to walk around the front and back and the TCH also works well with the door closed

kdhspyder

Absolutely.. Beginning with the Gen2 Prius the AC runs primarily off the main traction battery. Thus you can sit in stalled traffic, be cool and not burn any fuel. It does draw the NiMH battery somewhat so the ICE will have to kick in somewhat sooner than if the AC were not on at all. 5% is probably a good estimate.

However Winter driving makes a significant difference in driving FE. It's about 10% decline for all vehicles.
10% of 50 mpg Prius is -5 mpg;
10% of 15 mpg Sequoia is -1.5 mpg.
The reason is that in Winter the ICE runs more frequently to keep everything warm.

One is noticeable one is not but both end up having the same effect.

hamm3r

Actually, auto stop DOES fit into the MPG calculations, improving them markedly. But your point is well-taken, in that the absence of vibration and noise when the engine is stopped are further benefits to this wonderful feature of hybrids.

Auto stop can be included in the calculations when the car is moving...but NOT when it is stopped. You are using no gas and you are not moving. 0 divided by 0 (illegal calculation).

That's why I am saying it is underrated!

umpire63

I have a loaded Desert Sand THC on order at two dealerships in the Midwest. Neither dealer has been great to work with.

I notice some people mention that the Southeast Region is getting a shipment in or that the Southwest has an allocation of 24 cars this month.

How do you find out when and how many units the regions are getting? Can you then determine when and how many each dealership will receive?

Thanks in advance.

hamm3r

Let me just make a ridiculous example to illustrate my point:

Assume both cars have a full tank of gas (10 gallon capacity).
Car A=convential vehicle (assume 20 mpg on average)
Car B=TCH (assume 40 mpg on average)

Both vehicles travel one 20 "typical" miles.

Car A now has burned 1 gallon of fuel and has 9 gallons remaining.
Car B has burn .5 gallons and has 9.5 remaining.

So far:

Car A is getting 20 mpg
Car B is getting 40 mpg

Suddenly both cars get stuck in a traffic jam that lasts 2 days. For illustration purposes only, car A does NOT shut his engine (remember, if he is stopped only for a minute or two, he would most likely not shut it).

Car A has now run out of gas but only gone 20 miles. So he has gotten:

= 20 miles / 10 gallons
= 2 miles per gallon.

Car B has not used any more gas and has gotten:

= 20 miles / .5 gallons
= 40 mpg.

No further calculation has been done to raise or lower the TCH mpg calculation, whereas the conventional vehicle continues to get lower and lower mpg in extreme situations.

aslterp7

Yeah! Sitting on a freeway not moving more than a mile for 30 minutes. The wasted gas of all those hundreds of cars, oh boy! It will be nice to know that some people will be using hardly any gas at all during that time - like hybrid owners. Maybe the mpg of the cars sitting there is 1 mile for 1 gallon, but a hybrid owner might have 1 mile for .1 gallon of gas. That seems important to me, especially in so. calif. where all the freeways have turned into parking lots.

ehasz

What, if any, is the ignition inefficiency? That is, in a hypothetical freeway "crawl" which is STOP and GO, if it's shutting off every few seconds, then starting up again, then shutting off, then starting up... is there some extra loss?

hueristix

Biodiesel would be sweet, but VW's reliability has really fallen off and I would feel safer in a solid sedan like the Camry. The resale is much higher too.

Look, when it comes to "clean" coal it seems to be wishful thinking, but newer diesel technologies can burn cleaner than dinosaurs. Rudolph Diesel ran his first engine on peanut fuel. Amazing how petrolized everything has become- of course the whole [non-permissible content removed] thing did not help diesel out.

A hybrid-diesel running on biofuel really would be a hot ticket. Come on, Subaru!

In the mean time I hopefully get to pick up my loaded TCH, Mag-Gray in 4 days! Never had a Lexus before! (close enough!)

hueristix

I don't think it would turn on and off that often, every few minutes if ac is on or you are stuck going up hill like can happen on hwy 17 out here- I am fairly certain the pros outweigh the cons.

kevintlutz

I have noticed little impact on MPGs from running the air conditioning (5% or less). Unlike a traditional car, the TCH has an electric air conditioner that runs off the battery. That's how it can keep working when the ICE is not running.

As long as your battery has a sufficient charge it's not using fuel to run the A/C. If the battery starts to drain and regenerative braking is not charging the battery, then the engine must start to charge the battery and thus use fuel.

wvgasguy

I believe that while sitting and not using gas the correct calculation is still just a simple calculation of miles driven divided by gallons consumed. However the comparison number that is important is comparing that number to an equivalent say, V6SE sitting in the same condition. Your FE numbers will change very little while the V6 may end up with a number on the tank well below the EPA number, depending on how long he sat in traffic.

About the only real good number for comparison would be to know the fuel consumption of the equivalent ICE only vehicle and estimate the number of minutes you have to sit daily.

This unfortunately would only make you feel warm and fuzzy because most ICE only drivers would never admit to or accurately calculate the amount of gas wasted.

The real feel good would be in one of those long waits behind a wreck on a 90 degree day when everybody shuts down their car and stands along the road way sweating; and you're sitting cool, listening to your 440 watt stereo with complete silence around you (other than your A/C fan blowing.

hybridriver

What, if any, is the ignition inefficiency? That is, in a hypothetical freeway "crawl" which is STOP and GO, if it's shutting off every few seconds, then starting up again, then shutting off, then starting up... is there some extra loss?

Well, as someone else noted, if you are just crawling along, the ICE is unlikely to be starting very often, unless you have the A/C on. Regarding ignition inefficiency, my understanding is that most hybrid engines are designed to waste very little fuel on restart. The electric motor is used to spin them up quickly such that steady state fuel injection will start the engine.

gc77584

I think I see the same thing on my TCH, at least on the driver's side. It's barely noticable but it is there. I couldn't really tell on the passenger side because of the way the sun was hitting it.

orge

I'm in the upper Midwest (Wisconsin) and put out some emails to regional dealerships about getting a fully loaded TCH in silver. I did get a call back that a dealer in Oshkosh, WI is scheduled to get a fully loaded Desert Sand TCH in later in June. I'm holding out for silver, but if you're within driving distance, I can give you the salesperson's name....

njerald

link title

hardchemist

He mentioned that it was "difficult to maintain a constant speed on the highway" as a result of the HSD arrangement. I wonder if that is just something that takes getting used to, and that once you do then it's okay. Hell, it's hard hovering a UH-1 helicopter, but after you get the hang of it it's like riding a bike LOL.

He also complained about the additional weight, the perceived lack of responsiveness, and the decreased trunk space among the disadvantages compared to the stock 4cyl Camry.

I also notice that at the very end of the video clip when he "races" against the 4 cylinder Camry, the hybrid driver delayed by a fraction of a second, thus putting him at a disadvantage. But the TCH still pulled out ahead at the end. To be fair, and to quell the concerns that folks might have about the TCH getting out of its own way if need be, if you want maximum acceleration you really have to punch it at the git-go. This is because you have 200 pound-feet of torque at zero RPM. That means instant go. But if you dont' punch it, you won't be able to take advantage of this unusual feature only available with an electric motor.

So all in all, this young buck isn't really enamoured with the TCH. That's why I take his video review with a grain of salt, and I'll stick to the Road & Track boys and their glowing review and high marks. To each his own.

hamm3r

I believe that while sitting and not using gas the correct calculation is still just a simple calculation of miles driven divided by gallons consumed.

You are not wrong, but as my example illustrates the calculation is futile. The answer does not change:

mpg= (MILES DRIVEN) / (GALLONS CONSUMED)

If you already drove 20 miles and consumed .5 gallons after 30 minutes, but then stopped for another 30 minutes, the calculation would be:

(20 initial miles + 0 additional miles) / (.5 initial gallons consumed + 0 additional gallons)

still yielding 40 mpg.

Nowhere in the equation is a variable for the amount of time included, therefore, time is not a factor.

The mpg calc sitting stalled on a freeway does not change for a hybrid anymore than if that car were parked in your driveway. The same cannot be said for a conventional unleaded or dieseal vehicle.

sandetm

I had seen that article just prior to picking up my TCH so I specifically checked for that when I drove it. Had no problems maintaining a steady speed of 70 then or since or at any other speed for that matter. Don't quite understand what he's talking about.

bmgoodman

We're down to 83 showing up in the southeast region, from 125. They're moving out the door faster than in!

gagrice

The good: The 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid is a comfortable, well-appointed sedan, equipped with a bevy of technology, from the economical hybrid propulsion system to a raft of standard in-car devices, including a Bluetooth interface and a premium audio system.

The bad: The Camry's optional GPS navigation unit struggles with voice commands and can lose its bearings when out of town. Alternating between power sources can lead to a jerky ride.

The bottom line: Easy on the eyes and the pocketbook, user- as well as ecofriendly, the Toyota Camry Hybrid is a fitting front-runner in the new generation of hybrid sedans.

TCH review

bmgoodman

The reviewer has something wrong:

"Toyota loads the Camry Hybrid with all the above tech and appointments and offers it at the single price of $25,900, plus a delivery charge of $580. Buyers can even choose leather seats over cloth at no additional charge."

Wait, I can get FREE leather seats? Where do I sign up??!! :P

houtex1

Good review overall. Another thing that seems to be mistaken in the review is:

"Also standard on the Camry Hybrid are voice-activated GPS navigation and XM Satellite Radio. "

I don't think either are standard. In fact I have yet to hear the details of how XmRadio gets installed. where the receiver is put, etc.

kdhspyder

...the reviewers are newspaper/internet writers giving impressions not unlike those of wvgasguy, stevevillatoro, hamm3r, sandetm and others posting impressions here. They all carry equal weight.

With one major exception, the posters here have put their own money down to take possession of the vehicles as opposed to being handed a vehicle to 'test out'.

alp8

yes, true

but an owner is more likely to expres post-hoc rationalizations - trying to justify the purchase they just made - and less willing to point out the negatives. We all do it. It's human nature.

babyrocket

Has anyone tried buying the sliding armrest parts for the Camry XLE and installing them on the Camry Hybrid? How about the storage box with lid (instead of the open box on the hybrid)? Are these things interchangeable, and if so does anyone know the cost?

hardchemist

I just finished reading all the user opinions associated with this article (13 of them as of noon EST 5/31). At least 2 of them specifically mention "lurching at highway speeds" and "difficulty maintaining 70MPH." Another incorrectly references Road & Track with a negative fact.

It makes me wonder if GM doesn't hire trolls to go to CNet and post misinformation about the TCH.

alp8

It makes me wonder if GM doesn't hire trolls to go to CNet and post misinformation about the TCH.

If GM ISN'T doing that, then they would be the only ones.

To be simpler, if you were the CEO, and you learned that your company was NOT doing this, how many people would you fire?

People are paid to populate message boards. Happens all the time.

houtex1

Luckily it does not seem to impact the Camry.

http://www.cars.com/go/news/Story.jsp?section=news&subject=recent&story=053106st- oryaAP&aff=newspres

spiff72

I didn't realize that the Hybird didn't include the sliding armrest, and it never occurred to me that the bin was open in front of the armrest...