Toyota Camry Hybrid

gc77584

I've had my base Titanium TCH since 5/22 and have put about 350 miles on it. I haven't put gas in it yet; tank average says it's around 37.8 mpg. I did a few short 30-40 mph trips over the weekend and that made the tank average drop a bit. Yesterday's 18 miles of very slow stop & go traffic in the pouring Houston rain didn't help any either, but according to the ECO drive monitor, I still got a bit over 35 mpg. I'm quite pleased with the way the car drives. I have no complaints about anything (yet).

Took it in this morning to have leather installed. I'm doing it through the dealer, and they assure me that it will look so good that it will be indistinguishable from factory leather. The installers will also do whatever's needed to ensure the side airbags that come out of the front seats are unaffected and will operate correctly.

Question for those of you with factory leather -- are the backs of your front seats a hard plastic? Just wondering if that's only on the base model.

njerald

Fitzmall.com has 2 white ones at MSRP.

dmhltd1

Must be a lot of interest, I can't even get into the site.

kdhspyder

Add to that two reviews out of 3 reviews complained of lunging at highway speeds

Ok to put this to rest before you repeat it too often.

One person on a who allegedly bought one (? hmmm he hated the interior and drive and the style and the price... yet implies he bought one ) apparently made it up. ( referred to a R&T test that never mentioned it )
Another reviewer referred to the first test driver.
Several posters here have noticed the ICE/e-motor exchange but not an uncontrollable surge.

NO, ZERO, None of the respected automotive testers including Edmunds, C&D or R&T have ever mentioned it.

It poses the question, 'Did the original test driver imagine it or did he/she have another agenda?'

Critical thinking/reading helps a lot, wouldn't you say?

midnightcowboy

bmgoodman;

Sorry, I guess I should read the magazine articles instead of going directly to the Toyota dealers in Houston. Hopefully, they won't read the magazine articles and raise their prices.

LOL,

MidCow

kdhspyder

When the Camry is pottering around town, it can survive in electric-only mode, which makes for a smooth--and deathly quiet--ride. Initially, it can be quite unnerving to drive a car of this size in electric mode; more than once, we had to remind ourselves that the engine had not stalled when getting ready to pull off from the lights. To counter our butterflies in these situations, we found that we would step extrahard on the gas pedal to ensure that we didn't hold up the traffic flow, an action that would cause the car to decide that we needed more power and to call upon the gas engine for extra torque. As the Camry switches from electric only to gas-and-electric, the car splutters and judders as it balances the two power sources--a minor design flaw but one we can live with.

This kinda makes one wonder where these 'automotive reviewers' have been since 2000. All Toyota hybrids since the Gen1 Prius have this 'unnerving' feeling of silence when driving in e-mode. Does Edmunds or C&D or R&T mention this? No it's been well known for 6 yrs now. Maybe the reviewer was the son/daughter of someone at Cnet interning for the summer.

"To counter our butterflies in these situations," puleeze.

"we found that we would step extrahard on the gas pedal to ensure that we didn't hold up the traffic flow, an action that would cause the car to decide that we needed more power and to call upon the gas engine for extra torque.

This 'reviewer' has it exactly backward. He/she apparently believes that it's the gasoline engine that provides the extra torque. In his/her defense, a newbie to auto's and the HSD vehicles in particular might still believe that it's best to crawl forward from a stop in order to conserve energy ( fuel ).

Generally positive, as noted, but this is likely an intern or someone who works behind a 'puter screen all day. The real buffoon is Mr Cunningham, who is the automotive Editor of Cnet, who gave this assignment to the intern and likely said something to the effect of 'Go over to the [ fill in name ]Toyota store and get a test drive and write me something on it. It appears that this vehicle is going to be hot.'

If he's the automotive editor then he might question his own qualifications. It's the editors job to know what's going on in the field.

midnightcowboy

LOL, he was their lepidopterist not their normal, regular car testor.

Cheers,

MidCow

hardchemist

Re: "the car splutters and judders as it balances the two power sources--a minor design flaw but one we can live with" I think they have it all wrong. It's the traction control system trying to work!

As with any current German car (like the one I own right now), the dang vehicle lunges forward but the microsecond that wheel slippage is sensed the car throttles back - very unsetteling if you were trying to pull out quickly in front of someone while merging (serves me right).

And, as Kdhspyder mentioned, with 200 pound-foot of torque available at ZERO rpm, you have lots o'power on tap from that electric motor. Definitely more than enough to fool the traction control into engaging!!!

bmgoodman

Well, I guess it's better to use a sample size of one rather than looking at what's going on across the country, especially when the one you look at "proves" your point!

I know of a TCH in the southeast that's been sitting at a dealer's lot for well over a week. I'd say Toyota may have already made too many of those dang things!

kdhspyder

While we are just outside the size range of a couple of the 'mega-stores' in the DC area ( the company used to own the Tyson's Corners store ) we've been getting a good normal supply. Whereas it used to be 6-10/mo now it's 15-20/mo now for the Prius'. There is always at least one Prius on the lot now but it/they don't last more than 4-6 days.

Regarding the Prius it appears that at this time there is a near-perfect balance of supply and demand. There are vehicles to be seen and driven and total unit sales are going up ( May sales due out later this afternoon ).

TCH.. one base model unsold - it's not for sale - so that it can be seen and driven.

bmgoodman

Wow, that does sound like Toyota has killed the goose that laid the golden egg! I sure hope Toyota can recover from its mistake.

Seriously, are you guys selling any Priuses for under MSRP?

Thanks for the info. I always appreciate your posts!

hueristix

Typical oversimplification in a Las Vegas style.

You really think the angry people are the ones driving hybrids? More like the people that still have payments on their H1

Yeah, we could all avoid tax if we had ugly casinos everywhere. I leave those to Vegas, where I intend to drive occasionally, then come back to the pristine coastline and redwood trees, and by the way, no blinking neon lights and whore handouts. In short, I will gladly pay $3k in sales tax as long as I don't have to move to Nevada. I am glad that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Paying $3k over is for people that wanted theirs NOW NOW NOW and I must say: shame on those dealers!

Mine will be about $400 under MSRP.

Caveat Emptor- Let the buyer beware.

kdhspyder

Nominally. With one or two on the lot and 2-4 preorders the demand and supply are in balance. We don't try to outsell FitzMall or Laurel Carmax or even our former store.

As you probably well know it's a real dogfight in the DC area which is good for both the consumer and for Toyota the manufacturer.

kdhspyder

I believe that wvgasguy lives in West Virginia and works for a Gas Co. ( from prior posts ).

midnightcowboy

My RWD S2000 has traction and skid control and doesnt do that.

I have a RWD IS300 that is really intrusive on traction control, cuts the throttle to almost half for a second or so when it senses wheel spin.

Had a RWD M3 with traction control, very unobtrusive.

FWD Electric motor with lots of torque that can't handle traction judgement= poor design. HSD always generating at full traction battery charge = poor design. Corvettes and Vipers don't seem to have traction control problem's

FWD= traction control problem under heavy acceleration. Maybe HSD should be RWD or AWD?

You just can't defeat the laws of physics!

Cheers,

MidCow

midnightcowboy

kdhspyder:

Okay seriously, when I looked last I could get one for $500 under MSRP to MSRP depending on the dealer. Some had a few on the lot or fairly readily available. But since I bought S2000 in February, I haven't looked that hard and since then price of gas has gone up $0.50 a gallon. Hybrid car sales are funny inversely tied to the price of gas, so they actually may be back to MSRP or higher.

Cheers,

MidCow

P.S. - I think the Camry Hybrid is an excellent car, but right now I would go with a Avalon or IS250 6-speed in the Toyota/Lexus line.

P.S.S.- When my wife replaces her Avalon, she said she will buy another Toyota and has mentioned several times the RAV4

grandtotal

I've never driven a TCH, but I have driven a Prius enough to get used to it. I have experienced the "lunging" but it's not "lunging" or anything like it, it is a gentle jerk as the car switches between modes. I was aware of it as the driver, my passengers were not. I have a feeling that this is an urban legend that will live and fester a long time. Will it affect TCH sales? I doubt it.

kdhspyder

All the HSD vehicles since the Gen1 Prius have had Traction control since the instantaneous torque from the e-motor is far beyond any other vehicle on the road now.

S2000 - 168 lb-ft @ 6800 rpms
TCH - 199 lb-ft from 0-1500 rpms

Without Trac a driver would just burn rubber everytime he/she stepped on the pedal strongly. Stop lights would look like NHRA events and hybrid vehicle tires would have to be racing slicks. In addition to the safety benefits of Trac while driving it primarily modulates the massive immediate torque to conform to current conditions.

It's why the Prius is always away from a stop light before the V8 SUV's and little coupes. :P

hueristix

Midcow,
Where do you get your info from?
The Prius has a waitlist too.

Toyota hater revealed!

kdhspyder

MidCow is just a gadfly ( devil's advocate ) who likes to make certain everyone has investigated all the plusses and minuses before making a 'hybrid commitment'. The give and take is good for keeping an even perspective. Ditto gagrice.

wvgasguy

You really think the angry people are the ones driving hybrids? More like the people that still have payments on their H1

Probably right. But I guess it's the difference in being ticked and really pi#$@%ed off.

In the land of $400,000 cottages I guess $3K is not a lot to worry over. As far as the AMT, I can't imagine being a borderline person making $85,000 but having $25,000 in mortgage interest. I guess I'd be looking for a cheap ride as well.

If you can afford living there then $3K extra on your TCH and still being able to live in California is not too bad of a price to pay; I'll probably spend that much just to visit. Just need to keep it in perspective, huh.

I do believe though with a little bit of effort those prices can be beat, but you may have to cross the border or drive a ways. A friend called me this morning asking about my TCH and he told me the dealer in Fairmont WV (Dan Cava's)was offering him $1400 off on a straight out deal.

kdhspyder

Your choices are certainly good ones. I feel the XLE V6 w/Navi offers a better value than the Avalon XLS w/ Navi but the Avalon certainly has the look and feel of a much more luxurious vehicle.

A RWD vehicle w/ HSD would be a smash IMO and it may be in the works ( rumors, rumors ).

midnightcowboy

Interesting kdhspyder,

But the rest of the story....

Gears multiply the torque to the wheels or (HSD planetary gear).

The coefficient of friction, weight distrbution, mass of object to move.

Part of the Prius and TCH is that the main goal is very high fuel effciency and they use very skinny low rolling coefficient tires. Actually Gen I Prius drivers had no trac control and tended to wear out tires more quickly that they probably should have because of tire spin.

The S2000 is very ,very fast from a stop light if you want it to be ....
LOL, much faster than a Prius.

Cheers,

MidCow

P.S.- A Peterbuilt with a Cummins diesel engine has up to 2,500 ft-lbs of torque, but that doesn't necessarily mean it spins tires or is fast, but it can pull about 100 elephants LOL

wvgasguy

The S2000 is very ,very fast from a stop light if you want it to be ....

From the reviews I read back in the day (and who really believes these folks) the S2000 was a dog from a stop light UNLESS you were willing to drive it like you stole it.

I know you'll disagree with that assessment reguardless of the professional reviewers that made that statement, huh

kdhspyder

Actaulkl gen I Prius drivers had no trac control and teneded to waer out tires more quickly that they proably should because of tire spin.

The Gen1's did have Trac. It was in the initial training for them that I heard the reason why. The need to replace the Yokohama's on the Gen1's was due to too soft rubber and Yokohama not expecting the weight of the battery pack to be so influential on wear. It was misdesigned rubber. They were replaced at no cost and nothing has been heard since even with the mediocre Goodyear's.

midnightcowboy

What can I say, they didn't know how to drive a VTEC ? Engine wasn't broken in? I can tell you they are wrong. The sweet power band is 5,000-8,000 rpm. If you shift at 2,000 is runs pretty slow, Oh well! But then that means you don't know how to drive a Honda engine. First is geared low enough you take off normally and quickly get to the sweet range to accelerate very fast. The engine have a 11.0 compression ratio and needs at least 1,500-2,000 miles before it is broken in. If a car testor romped on a new engine it would cause two problems (1) it wouldn't perform well and (2) even after 1,500-2,000 miles it wouldn't perform well because it wasn't broken in properly; proper break-in is extremely important on the S2000.

The S2000 is very fast and quick. If you love the VTEC the S2000 is awesome! Also, I have the 2.2L engine instead of the 2.0L I think they change with 2004 model.

Many car editors and testors have something against a high RPM low torque engine like a Honda VTEC

Cheers,

MidCow

P.S.- The TCH doesn't have a tachometer which measures engine RPM LOL

midnightcowboy

I thought TRAC control was an option and was not on all GenI cars , only upper end ones. Anyway there was a problem and you are right, Toyota replaced the tires.

Cheers,

MidCow

njerald

www.fitzmall.com

scottgb

I drove a Jasper Green base model TCH last Saturday, and the example I drove DID have a lunging sensation at 65 MPH. My foot was steady on the gas pedal, and I could feel the
car lunging slightly. The speed didn't appear to change, as I watched the speedometer
and my speed stayed at 65.

Other than that, I loved the car. I still might buy one, but I have to admit that I was a little disappointed. I mentioned it to the salesman, who was in the back seat, and his response was "you'll get used to it". I think I need to drive another one (at a different dealership).

gagrice

RWD vehicle w/ HSD would be a smash IMO

I thought the GS450h was RWD. Or is it AWD?

alp8

GS450H is RWD

wvgasguy

What can I say, they didn't know how to drive a VTEC

I'm willing to bet those testers had a lot in common with the ones testing the TCH

P.S.- The TCH doesn't have a tachometer which measures engine RPM

Yeah, I was sitting at the redlight beside the Hemi trying to rev up the engine and I don't even get any noise. Disappointing. Hard to inpress the redneck in the Charger

hardchemist

Thanks, ScottGB. But I'm having a difficult time figuring out what lunging is - especially if you say your foot was steady and the speed wasn't changing. Now I'm even more confused when I read the definition of lunge: 1. To make a sudden thrust or pass. 2. To move with a sudden thrust.

There's a pattern here, other people (unless you and all of them are trolls, which I doubt) are also describing some phenomenon with the TCH at 65 - 70 mph. We're reading about it here and elsewhere on message boards and reviews.

Is it a change in vibration(s)? Is it some kind of change in inertia with the motor(s) that shifts the car a few millimeters along one axis? Or more? LOL

I've read that some car manufacturers who put CVTs in their products (hybrids or standard ICEs), will program "simulated" shift points, to make the CVT "feel" more like a regular transmission. Surely Toyota would reward us with all of its pure CVT goodness, and not program in such distractions...or are these programmed simulated shift points what you are feeling?

Cheers! I pick up mine next week!!

stevedebi

"Just curious, what is an extra use tax?"

In California, the vehicle license fees are divided into license and use. The license fee covers the actual costs of the state. The use fee is a surcharge tacked on. It is highest on new cars and decreases as the car gets older.

However, the use fee is deductable on the Federal income taxes.

kdhspyder

I think what some might experiencing is the PSD switching the ICE from primarily driving front wheels to splitting it's energy to also charge the battery 'on the fly' while cruising... and then back again. Often at this point the battery/e-motor gives the wheels a boost as well.

I haven't felt it as a distraction at any time but somewhere deep I can recognize what is being described. As hardchemist notes it may feel almost like a mild gearshift.

stevedebi

"A RWD vehicle w/ HSD would be a smash IMO and it may be in the works ( rumors, rumors)."

You mean like the Lexus GS 450h?

kdhspyder

Well actually I was thinking more within the reach of the majority of the buying public. Both corrections above duly noted. Thank You.

wvgasguy

I would have jumped on a new IS250AWD with the same 4c ICE / Hybrid combo as in the Camry

hamm3r

Question for those of you with factory leather -- are the backs of your front seats a hard plastic? Just wondering if that's only on the base model.

Yes, they are plastic. Looks like the leather from a distance. I actually had to touch it to confirm it was plastic.

alp8

absolutely!!!

or even just a RWD IS HSD.

for $30K!!!!

if the GS450H early adopters are happy, and if the TCH early adopters are happy, I'll be an early adopter of any IS hybrid.

hardchemist

Well, you can get a 2006 Lexus IS220d across the pond. That particular beauty comes with a nice 170HP diesel with oodles of torque....behold! Grrrr....when do we get one?

alp8

if I could only get some clean diesel to burn here in the SF Bay Area?

Can I burn biodiesel in one of those?

well,that review does not exactly send me to my travel agent to jump the pond and bring back that diesel. I think I'll wait for the hybrid.

I'd love to drive the GS450H, but it's way more car than I need. My back seat passengers don't need that much comfort!!!

wvgasguy

WoW, IS220d. ">

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C7606/

gagrice

All BP/ARCO is ULSD that will be mandated for this fall. They have sold it in CA for almost 2 years now. That is all I ever used in my Passat TDI. Very clean diesel.

hueristix

if I could only get some clean diesel to burn here in the SF Bay Area?

you can, but I don't know where exactly it is- my buddy has it delivered.

Can I burn biodiesel in one of those?

I believe you can run biodiesel in just about any diesel engine.

bobgwtw

Al of the local dealers in my area of SC have 1 to 3 Prius' on the lot - and they're willing to negotiate

scottgb

Thanks for the explanation KDHSPYDER! I think you've hit it on the head.
I noticed the same sensation while test driving a Prius back in 2004 also, but
have since driven a couple of other Prius's and did not notice it. I don't think it
will be enough of a deterrent to keep me from buying, and I'm sure that after
a couple of days I probably wouldn't even notice it.

willybill

It has been 7 weeks now since I dropped my money off at the dealer and was told I was 4th on the list for a TCH. My dealer is the largest in Indiana.. I have been reading the forum every day and probably have a better understanding of this car than any other I have ever purchased and I don't even have it yet.!!
I am waiting for the ever popular magnetic gray with ash leather, navi, (fully loaded version) to arrive. Maybe one of these days...
Does anyone with the NAVIGATION system know if there is any version or date on the NAVI DVD?.. I tried to find information from the manuafacturer DENSO International and was told I would have to obtain any update through Toyota.
Just curious, due to some posts indicating that certain maps may be out of date.
Can anyone state the workability of the NAVI system. Does anyone know if it compares to the Lexus NAVI which I think is also produced by Denso International.
Thank You
Bill
:P

wvgasguy

This is ny first NAV system and I still have not figured it all out. It is somewhat dated as there are roads in commercial developments (shopping malls) near me that don't show up and have been there more than 5 years.

I never thought I would want one but have enjoyed this so far. Additionally with the NAV system you get the other screens for consumption and energy flow. It's all pretty neat for a first timer.

midnightcowboy

KDHSPYDER - is one of the most knowledgeable Toyota sales guys I have seen. He provides excellent information.

I second, what scottgb said about KDH's surging/lunging explanation.

He also drives a Prius and understands the HSD system very well from an actual end user perspective.

Cheers,

MidCow

P.S.- Yes the new IS is a beauty, my son still likes his old one