Toyota Camry Hybrid

1303133353656

Comments

  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    but an owner is more likely to expres post-hoc rationalizations - trying to justify the purchase they just made

    Unlike the opinion of domestic drivers towards Toyota owners, I have indeed posted the issues I have had with my TCH and other foreign autos. I can't justify my purchase to most people. I've never been able to justify my purchase to others. I've already been called irrational in several of the forums for trading in my InfinitiFX for the TCH.

    The one journalist talked about the "perception" of lack of responsiveness. That's not about facts and results, that's an attitude issue. I had a perception that while sitting in my TCH with the ICE not running that I would get run over when I pulled out in front of traffic. I overcame that perception when I indeed floored it and the ICE started immediately and took off just as all my past vehicles have done. I know longer have that perception and I proved that perception to be false in reality. I try to live in reality.

    The "lurch" I believe too is a perception. I can "feel" and hear when my ICE kicks on and off. It's subtle and sometimes I actually have to look at the instant mpg readout to really know that it did. Fact is, it doesn't lurch (that can probably be measured). It's smooth, much smoother than the lurch you would have when an automatic transmission shifts.

    I now have over 2300 miles of driving on my TCH and can say these are not issues with my car. I don't imagine my car is any different than the others.

    If these people are professional reviewers I believe they need another profession. Then again, most movies I attend, I go to after certan critics give a thumbs down. Some people just can't be trusted to give either unbiased opinions or an opinion that represents the marketplace in that segment. However, we don't all have that problem. It's probably human nature to lie but I prefer to tell the truth if for no reason other than to keep my story consistant.

    For what it's worth, I consider the TCH to be a well built mid size, mid price car. It's certainly not even a "base" luxury car. It is no where near the "quality" of a BMW, but time will tell if it has typical Toyota "reliability". I knew when I purchased this car that it would meet my minimum requirement for comfort, but yes I would like to see less plastic, to rear less road noise, and that it handles curves better, etc.

    However I wanted an economy car and I am estatic that I am able to buy a car this large with heated leather seats, a sunroof and navigation system and STILL get 38mpg. It may not be a Lexus, but it's head and shoulders above a Cobolt or similar small car that I figured I'd be purchasing when I decided I wanted to get high mpg's (on average, not just highway)
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    It makes me wonder if GM doesn't hire trolls to go to CNet and post misinformation about the TCH.

    They don't have to pay for this. After my experience last week on the GM forums I found there are enough "hate anything but GM" owners out there to keep this kind of misinformation flowing. There are so many of them that you almost have to believe them because we tend to listen to the masses. I found that you can't reason with them and it's a waste of time even trying, unless you just enjoy that type of thing
  • spiff72spiff72 Member Posts: 179
    What kind of range does the keyless ignition have on this vehicle?

    For example, if you have the keyfob in a jacket pocket, and you toss the jacket in the front passenger seat, will the car still start properly? What if you throw the jacket in the back seat?

    Also, does the fob allow for entry into a locked door without having to push keyfob buttons (do the doors unlock as you approach the car? What about the trunk? Is there an actual key at all (for the truck for example)?

    Thanks!
  • bmgoodmanbmgoodman Member Posts: 102
    Those of you who already have a TCH: Have you been following the suggested 1,000 mile break-in period specified in the owner's manual? It seems pretty easy to follow their suggestions. On my previous cars I have always followed the suggestions closely, but who knows if it has really helped.

    FWIW, I also plan to switch to Mobil 1 synthetic at my first oil change.
  • houtex1houtex1 Member Posts: 82
    I was wondering if any current owners can comment on the paragraph below from the CNET review.

    "Handling on the Camry is generally responsive, but we found that when crawling along in traffic, the steering wheel has an alarming tendency to pull sharply to the left or right depending on the camber of the road. This may have something to do with the Toyota's high-tech VDIM systems (see Safety section), but we found it very disconcerting. "

    I have not driven one of these yet and am hoping to take delivery of one soon. I also tremember reading something to the effect that people had trouble controlling the Prius Steering and am wondering if this is the same issue.

    Thanks for any comments regarding this issue.
  • john312john312 Member Posts: 24
    I am planning on making this change if possible. After I received my VIN (my TCH is scheduled to be delivered by 6/6) we went over to Parts where they said that we could order the sliding armrest ($208 + 8.5% tax) but could not return it if it didn't fit. We are going to wait until my TCH comes in and take measurements of the cover on the TCH and a XLE to see if everything (especially the hinges and the latch) will line up.
  • houtex1houtex1 Member Posts: 82
    Here is the link to the Prius steering issues. Would be interested in knowuing if the Camry exhibits the same behavior. Thanks.

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef28f96/265
  • hamm3rhamm3r Member Posts: 55
    Here is the link to the Prius steering issues. Would be interested in knowuing if the Camry exhibits the same behavior. Thanks.
    I have over 400 miles on the car and have not experienced this. The car rides very smoothly and stearing is pretty tight. The ride is pretty quiet as well. The only issue that I can comment on is that occassionally (not very often) when the ICE motor kicks on you feel a slight brief initial vibration.
  • gc77584gc77584 Member Posts: 65
    if you have the keyfob in a jacket pocket, and you toss the jacket in the front passenger seat, will the car still start properly? What if you throw the jacket in the back seat?

    Yes, it will. Mine is in my purse which is either thrown onto the floor in front of the passenger seat or onto the passenger seat or onto the back seat or sometimes onto the floor in the back. My TCH has started with no problem with the fob in all those locations.

    Also, does the fob allow for entry into a locked door without having to push keyfob buttons (do the doors unlock as you approach the car?

    The doors don't unlock automatically as you approach the car. You have to pull on the door handle when the fob is in range, then they unlock.

    What about the trunk? Is there an actual key at all (for the truck for example)?

    If you're standing with the fob at rear of the car near the trunk, then you can open the trunk without having to push a button on the fob. You also don't need to use a key if the fob is in range. What I haven't been able to do is unlock the driver's door, throw my purse (or jacket) with the fob inside onto the seat and then walk back and open the trunk. In order to "automatically" unlock, the fob must be within the specified range at the rear of the car by the trunk.

    There is an actual key, although it's quite tiny and is stored inside the fob. The only time you'd need to pull the key out is if the fob stops working for some reason. And then I think the key is only designed to unlock the driver's door or trunk. I don't think it can be used to start the car. Can someone else verify that?
  • gc77584gc77584 Member Posts: 65
    Here is the link to the Prius steering issues. Would be interested in knowuing if the Camry exhibits the same behavior. Thanks.

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef28f96/265

    "The steering has always been 'loose'. I mostly notice it on the freeway where it will suddenly pull slightly to the right or left, requiring constant adjustment to keep a straight course. It feels like I'm constantly driving in very windy conditions, with the car being buffeted around. It also had a severe pull to the left when I first drove it, which an alignment seemed to have fixed, but now I am starting to see again.

    These two issues combined make for a very unsteady ride on the freeway, almost to the point of feeling unsafe."


    I have about 300 miles on my TCH with 65-70+ mph speeds (Houston freeways) and putt-putt downtown speeds and stop-n-go-bumper-to-bumper speeds (Houston freeways again). I've never noticed anything like the Prius owner describes (quoted above).
  • hardchemisthardchemist Member Posts: 61
    I think someone else asked this question - but does the security system (option QS90, $477) work seamlessly with the auto-unlock, or is there an additional disarming procedure that doesn't happen automatically when you walk up to the car?
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Why would you want an alarm system. They cannot start the car without the chip in the fob. "

    Not at all true, anyone with a little programming experience, a laptop, and a few very cheap parts can break the encryption and start the car. It can't be started by the punk down the block.

    The same is true of normal "immobilizer" keys. The problem is that silly 40 bit encryption the chip uses.

    Or does the Camry have higher encryption?
  • houtex1houtex1 Member Posts: 82
    One reason you might want an alarm is you get a discount on insurance. Atleast you do with my insurance company. Not nearly enough to justify the cost, but the discount coupled with a little extra peace of mind may make it worthwhile for some people.
  • hamm3rhamm3r Member Posts: 55
    And then I think the key is only designed to unlock the driver's door or trunk. I don't think it can be used to start the car. Can someone else verify that?

    You are correct. The little mechanical key that is "hidden" inside the fob will not start the car. If the battery on the fob runs out you are supposed to be able to start the car by rubbing the fob's Toyota logo alongside the "start" button.

    I haven't been adventurous enough to take my fob battery out and try this.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    A better alternative than either the TOM TOM or a built in NAV is the new Garmin Quest for $370 total including tax and delivery. google gpsdiscount
  • spiff72spiff72 Member Posts: 179
    I wonder if this would even work if you removed the battery completely. Maybe when it "runs down" there is just enough power left to rub it on the start button (enough to get the car to the dealer (or pick up a battery). Hopefully the battery is readily available and not a special size that is only available from dealers).
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    LOL,

    If you want to save money don't get the Hybrid period. You yourself said it would cost you $8K more and would stretch your finances. Hybrids have nice features, are green, and save you money at the pump, but the do no provide the lowest TCO. It takes a long, long time to pay off the hybrid bogey even at $3.00+ per gallon.

    As far as someone paying $1,200/year for insurance, that seems very high. My 2006 S2000 convertible Is only $1024 per year for full $250,000/$500,000 coverage. The TCH should be much, much less than that.

    motor on,

    MidCow

    P.S.- The Insight is going away LOL
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    So then yopu mow your lawn with a push mower, open you windows and avoid heating and air conditioning and walk or ride a bike on most/all short trips. I assume you also mke full use of mass transportation and have a solar energy water heater.

    LOL, You can talk the talk, but do you REALLY walk the walk. Most people are only as green it is convenient for them.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "1) Diesels are not legal in California. "

    Absolutely wrong. It is perfectly legal to own a diesel in California. You cannot buy them new, but you can get them used with 7501 miles on the odometer. If you do a search of VW dealers, you will find some available.
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    true, but still better to drive the Prius than not vis a vis local enviro impact)

    on the other side, there are people who think SUVs are the sourge of the earth, but completely ignore the rest of the driver's impact (i.e commute distance; home size; recreational choices). Me and my 17 mpg SUV commuting 6 miles/day are greener than the guy in the Prius with a 50 mile commute who drives a motor boat on the weekend

    a man's car choice does NOT tell you everything
  • gc77584gc77584 Member Posts: 65
    As far as someone paying $1,200/year for insurance, that seems very high.

    Depends greatly on what part of the country you live in. Insurance rates in Houston/Harris County are sky-high, even for those with spotless records. The liability portion is huge. $1200/year sounds cheap to me.
  • dmhltd1dmhltd1 Member Posts: 31
    Sorry if this is off topic but you'd be surprised how many factors go into your insurance rate, not the least of which is your credit score. Take Progressive Insurance for example. They have a multitude of rating variables, more than most companies. They advertise they'll show you their quotes and those of other major carriers. If theirs is higher than those it just means that they don't want to insure you.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    I've got over 2300 miles now on the TCH and have driven sustained 80mph, up and down hills at 70, rural <55mph and coasted around town (in other words, done it all) and I have not noticed anything negative about the steering of the TCH. I'm used to heavier tighter steering and I don't consider this system too light. I do wish it cornered flatter as I would prefer not to brake going down hills around curves but I believe that is probably normal in most mid-size family designs. Probably most TCH owners prefer this feel over that of say the SE model.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    If there is one thing I'd change about the Prius it's that it 'drifts'. It's due I think to a relatively narrow footprint on the Prius but it may also be exagerated by the electric steering. I haven't experienced it in the Camry though but I haven't had huge amounts of road time in one yet. The Camry's have a much larger footprint on the road.

    Owners?
  • bobgwtwbobgwtw Member Posts: 187
    kdspyder; You'e using apples & banannas in your comparison.

    Use EPA figures for both cars, rather than one report of 38 for the TCH & 3 MPG UNDER EPA for the V6. You apparently used $3.00/gl for gas prices. I'm paying $2.50 to $2.55 today. Using those figures changes things quite a bit. My crystal ball isn't clear enough to predict what it will be in 2 years

    Federal & state tax credits? I don't qualify, so that's not a factor for me.

    Trade in values? Again, my crystal ball isn't clear enough to predict 2-3 year out; but,I have concerns about TCH battery life at 180,000 miles.

    As you said, best/worse case, I'll have a nice XLE V6 to drive for a couple of years - when It's delivered. I'm 4-1/2 weeks into a projected 10-12 week delivery date.

    Peace.
  • bobgwtwbobgwtw Member Posts: 187
    I gave very serious consideration to buying a Jetta diesel before ordering the Camry. MAINTENANCE COSTS FOR THE VW made the decision for me.

    One of the questions I asked the dealers was "What is the cost of the 100,000 mile timing belt & service for the car?" Three ignored the question or said they didn't know, The 2 that answered said $1,200. That equals $60-$65 dollars A MONTH at my annual mileage.

    By by VW.
  • hardchemisthardchemist Member Posts: 61
    Looks like they are accepting fuel economy data from TCH owners over at GreenHybrid.com. Ladies and gentlemen, start posting your data! :D
  • ggav73ggav73 Member Posts: 31
    I got the new Palm TX and TOM TOM Nav for Palm for a total of about $400, shipping included. I prefer this to paying $370 just for NAV. Now I have also a performant PDA, actually that was the first purchase for non-navigational purposes.
  • heathinsdheathinsd Member Posts: 24
    I have to agree with the reviews though, at least concerning the lurching at highway speeds. I picked up my TCH on 05/19 in Phoenix and am still trying to get used to the subtile "jerks" around 65-75mph.

    But, I've noticed that if I set the cruise control, it isn't nearly as bad. I'm thinking the digital gas pedal is really sensitive or something? Who knows. But I totally wouldn't discount what they're saying about the lurching. My car does it too.

    Oh, and I'm a computer geek for a defense contractor. No affiliation with GM or any other car maker. :)
  • anniemfuseanniemfuse Member Posts: 66
    I am planning on .... taking measurements of the cover on the TCH and a XLE to see if everything (especially the hinges and the latch) will line up.

    Please keep us posted. Thank you.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Did you have any hassle licensing in CA? Is there anyway to know if the CARB mandated hybrid warranty is for the full 150K miles when you bought out of state. Another poster was told you have to buy in CA to get the longer battery warranty.
  • gampagampa Member Posts: 78
    Getting ready to commit on the Hybrid purchase... so I went a talked to the local dealer and started talking price
    Sometimes I get amused listening to their BS.
    Went something like this:
    "So what are you selling the Hybrid Camry's for"
    "you know they are a hot item now and we only get a couple per month"
    " OK ... so are you selling them for MSRP?"
    "(pauses) and smiles..."
    " your selling them at additional cost?"
    " well yes... we have to add on a Prep charge of $950 because we do alot to get it ready for you"
    "So the 2600 profit is not enough?"
    "You know we only make 3% profit on these cars"
    ...thats when I smiled and politely left.

    It appears that as long as the demand is there and someone is willing to pay the extra cost... getting a Hybrid for MSRP is not an option... at least not now.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    I got mine for $589 off MSRP (of $30,589) but I don't live in an area of high demand.

    However I think dealers that lie or allow their salemen to lie should be put out of business by the consumers refusing to deal with them.

    Sell it to me at whatever you want, but don't lie about the profit margin. Don't treat me as stupid (although paying $3000 over MSRP puts me in close proximity of that definition). Anyway as long as I know I'm being gouged and I agree then I'm OK with it.

    They don't do anymore to get these ready than they do for any other car, and that's why they always sell them at a profit.

    This stuff ticks me off

    I don't think I'd smile and politely walk off. My dealer delt with me because I tld him I'd do my business there. I bought 3 vehicles there in the last couple of months and told them I didn't mind "overpaying" for my TCH (the other deals were GREAT), but he needed to treat me like he wanted me back. They did.

    I guess if you don't have a saleperson or dealer you work with and it's a "cold" call then they probably don't feel like they are losing you from here on out.

    For a savings of $3000 I'm not sure why many of you are not flying to other states to buy your cars.
  • lungdoc63lungdoc63 Member Posts: 55
    I keep reading about "if you qualify" for a tax credit. Who wouldn't qualify - just those paying AMT? I hope that is the case b/c I my math shows net benefit of $7900 off the price car.
  • degdeg Member Posts: 14
    Dealer in Dallas (Metroplex Toyota - sold me at MSRP and no pressure - Barb/Natalie/Jamie - smaller Dallas dealer) called me Friday and told me that they had received a TCH. I was #2 on dealer list. They called and asked did I want to come down and test drive and see if I wanted a Blue instead of the Red I had requested. Said yes and went and drove -- wow -- I was impressed with A. The pickup/speed and B. How quiet it was. Color looked really Sharp--but I passed on the car. No Sun Roof-gotta have a sun Roof in Texas!!!! Trunk was small for what I was used to. I owned a Camry for 10 years so the battery does take away from the room. Watch it if you are planning on long family trips with a family of 4. My "other car" is a Prius. :D
  • heathinsdheathinsd Member Posts: 24
    No. Everything went really smoothly. I just took it to the DMV and paid licensing fees (around $250) plus extra Use Tax (around $450) and that was it. They saw that I purchased it out of state and saw that I paid around $2000 in taxes in Arizona and were cool with it.

    So I'm not sure what CARB is though... Never heard of that and now I'm worried. hehe It sounds like I might have lost out on a 50k mile warranty extension by buying out of state...
  • babyrocketbabyrocket Member Posts: 54
    Great - please let us know what you find out. If it fits, there are likely cheaper places to find the OEM parts online.
  • degdeg Member Posts: 14
    In Previous posts the Feds give $2600. States have different credits or - as here in Texas -- 0 . The oil lobby still rules. :cry: Just trying to come up with your $7900.
  • degdeg Member Posts: 14
    One of the items I was surprised not to find - sliding arm rest. Anxious to hear so as stated - let us know how it comes out. :confuse:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    CARB, is California Air Resources Board. They are the government entity in CA that enforces emissions standards. They mandated the 15 YR 150K mile hybrid warranty. I cannot see how Toyota could get out of it as long as you are registered in CA. Here is the mandate. The EPA mandate is only 8 yrs 100K miles.

    PZEV: Partial Zero Emission Vehicle
    PZEVs meet SULEV tailpipe emission standards, have zero evaporative emissions and a 15 year / 150,000 mile warranty. No evaporative emissions means that they have fewer emissions while being driven than a typical gasoline car has while just sitting.

    AT PZEV: Advanced Technology PZEVs
    AT PZEVs meet the PZEV requirements and have additional "ZEV-like" characteristics. A dedicated compressed natural gas vehicle, or a hybrid vehicle with engine emissions that meet the PZEV standards would be an AT PZEV.


    http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/carbs/index.asp
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    I purchased it out of state and saw that I paid around $2000 in taxes in Arizona
    Do you live in Arizona? In my case (WV), when I purchase out of state I sign a waiver in the purchase state and pay the taxes in my own state. If a trade is involved I only pay taxes on the difference.

    Just curious, what is an extra use tax?
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Who wouldn't qualify - just those paying AMT?

    There are several posts on this subject as it was brought up when I purchased earlier this month. I make decent money but have never had to pay the AMT, so I fully expect to cash in on my $2600 FED and $3750 State Tax Credits.

    I ran a sample AMT on last years income and it's a somewhat confusing form (at least to me the first time I had ever looked at it).

    I understand that the AMT is affected by earing "different" kind of money (that is not just a normal salary) and somehow they say it is a disadvantage for people living in a high cost area. I don't, but I was not sure how it was designed where it would matter where you live. That is unless I guess if you live somewhere that houses cost $500,000 and you have very high deductions, that could hurt. Hopefully though if you live in an area like that the salaries and living adjustments would keep you on a level playing field.

    You probably should run through the calculation just so you don't get hit with any surprises next April.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Just an observation after looking at many of these posts. It appears many of you have to pay state sales taxes well in excess of the 5% in WV (on autos). Additionally it appears that some of you pay on the full purchase price rather than the difference on a trade. Then I see other taxes (extra use?) and large fees for registration.
    WOW after being gouged by the dealer for a $3000 markup for cleaning the car up before you buy it I can see why there are so many angry drivers on the freeways in the large cities.
    I guess living in a lost cost area without a lot of taxes and no crowded roads has some advantages.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    "So what are you selling the Hybrid Camry's for"

    Haven't you learnt anything on these forums about negotiating the price of a car?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I guess living in a lost cost area without a lot of taxes and no crowded roads has some advantages.

    Some states like AZ collect sales tax on cars that are going out of state. In the case of buying in AZ and registering in CA you only pay the sales tax difference when you register in CA. CA sales tax varies by area, from 7.75% to 8.5%. Yes the deduction on your home loan interest can mess you up with the AMT imposed by the IRS. In the case of San Diego the median home now is $624,000. With the normal 20% down you have a loan of half a million and yearly interest of about $25,000. That is enough on a $85,000 income to get you into the AMT.

    Getting back to the TCH. If you buy one at the going rate in CA of $30,661 loaded, your sales tax is $2530. License fees of about $250. For an OTD price of $33k plus. If you have bought your home recently you may not get the tax credit. If you are a buyer like me you would opt for a 2006 Camry XLE 4C with leather moonroof etc. That car can be had for $10k less in San Diego than the TCH. And IMHO is a better looking Camry than the 2007. Add to that two reviews out of 3 reviews complained of lunging at highway speeds. Looking at the consumer reviews on the TCH one new owner is also complaining about the lunging. There must be something to it. Of course it took Toyota nearly a year to admit to the stalling with the Prius II. I would stick with the proven technology of last years Camry. Plus the 2006 has a bigger trunk more headroom front and back and better mileage rating than the 2007 Camry. I guess that is progress???

    PS
    Sounds like West Virginia would be a good place to retire. I'll have to check it out.....
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    I remember lurching in the early cruise controls some 25-30 years ago. Maybe it is a retro cruise control or just that the HSD designer didn't know how to program the ICE, MG1, MG2, speed, wind resistance, incline, and other road conditions althogether.

    Maybe, just maybe, that is why the true hypermilers don't like cruise control!

    He never did hear back from the rich FX45 person who did care about money just being green , if the were fully green : solar, push mower, no house air conditioning walk/ride bike on short trips. Makes you wonder why one would complain about lousy gas mileage if $$$ didnt really matter. I think it is just like a Hollywood star driving a Prius tjust to make a statement!

    LOL,

    MidCow

    P.S.- Hurricaine season starts today, another bad one but not as bad as 2005.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    LOL - deg said

    "I was impressed with A. The pickup/speed "

    ". My "other car" is a Prius."

    Well DUH! the Prius is the slowest car Toyota makes and is one of the slowest cars period!

    The TCH should have, much ,much better pickup. I have heard that as the TCH production has started ramping-up that Prius sales are starting to drop, they are available with no wait, at below MSRP. Did Toyota kill their golden goose with its artifically imposed supply ilmits or has the latent demand finally been satisfied ?

    Later,

    MidCow
  • bmgoodmanbmgoodman Member Posts: 102
    Where did you hear that you can get a Prius for below MSRP with no wait? Everything I have read says otherwise. Here are a few examples:

    http://www.emagazine.com/view/?3203
    http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/17/Autos/used_compacts/

    And there are many more recent articles I could cite, though your can find them yourself by using Google.
  • donehowarddonehoward Member Posts: 1
    I would LOVE to know how to easily determine the availability of the TCH.
    Preferably east of Salt Lake City, as I have to drive it back to the east coast.
    Northeast availabilty is best.
    Thanks.
  • bmgoodmanbmgoodman Member Posts: 102
    I wish I could help you, but I was just using a tool for the southeast region that another poster (much earlier in this thread) explained in careful detail. I am actually in the mid-Atlantic region and I have no idea how to get this data for my own area! You may be able to find someone here with enough knowledge to help, but, alas, I am not that person. Sorry!
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