"Are you still thinking little cars are those crap cans from the early 90s?"
No, I just think of them in the same relationship to the other cars of their time. I also think of the Yaris as a slightly less attractive Corolla. (read looks a little like a frog.) Only you get more HP in the corolla. It is a bit like you said with the xA. The xD made it closer to perfect. The Yaris is in the same boat.
I think the main problems with the Escort and Omni weren't so much about the configuration or the quality of materials but rather that they just couldn't run right. A Corolla would haul both those to the wrecking yard, even if pieces were falling off it.
I learned a lot about how CV joints and front suspensions worked because we had to replace so many axles on those early/mid 80s 'rollas. Oh, and the Dodge Colt with the 2 sticks for "power" and economy were a hoot too. We used to put McDonalds fast food trays under the back wheels, pull the e-brake, and then go sliding around the HS parking lot. Good times. The late 80's Colt Turbo was actually competition for the Civic SI of the time (and I guess VW GTI, too) and was reasonably respectable excepting the on-boost/off-boost torque steer.
Well all legends are just that, but usually they have some substance (and some nonsense) behind them.
The vaunted "old Volvos" ate camshafts like corn flakes but they still ran, sorta kinda, and is there an old Mercedes "rugged" diesel in the world with a working climate control?
So that's only one part of a whole car, as opposed to cars where most things break.
I do not know if it has been mentioned in this discussion, but the province of Ontario, Canada began a rebate program in March 2007. There are rebates for, basically, the most fuel efficient vehicles, from $1,000 to $2,000. I have not looked at the details of this rebate program, but it sounds like a pretty good approach to "regulation" to me. It helps the environment, and also, is a small assist to people on lower incomes who would be looking at used cars (which would be traded-in on the purchases of the new vehicles).
I agree with the tenet that no car model is perfect; they all have some faults. Some have faults more than others, but they are like spouses where you live with the good and the bad and still enjoy the car.
"I also think of the Yaris as a slightly less attractive Corolla. (read looks a little like a frog.) . . . It is a bit like you said with the xA. The xD made it closer to perfect. The Yaris is in the same boat."
Regarding the relationships, the original Scion xA and xB were both related to the Yaris that was being made at the time, and the Echo, which was also based on that earlier Yaris. The current xA appears to be related to the current Yaris, and the xB appears to be related to the current Matrix/Vibe (and Toyota considers the Matrix to be a Corolla). But Toyota is about to re--do the Matrix/Vibe.
Yes, I knew that. the xB was a Echo as well. The Echo also never made projection from the beginning. The xA and the xB sold better than I thought but as soon a Scion released the tC it outsold them both. The reason I believe was it had more HP. Now the xA is no more and the xB is still unattractive.
I was behind a new xB in the way home last night. I thought it looked pretty decent from the rear and side. But once I got ahead of it, I decided that the front is still ugly. :P
I suspected the xB would suffer the same fate the Echo did. I was surprised when to retired people didn't start getting them because of the room. Even the Element has soften a bit in my mind. But the xB is a rolling toaster and all function with no form. But I never could see how anyone would consider it a sub compact.
I wonder if the xA still is, after the gross upsizing.
Wow...I just looked at the EPA's specs for the 2008 xB. That thing got HUGE inside! While the first-gen was rated at 90 cubic feet of passenger volume and 21 cubic feet of cargo area, the new one is 101 passenger/22 cargo. The EPA still classifies it as a "small wagon", though. I guess that relatively small cargo area (with the back seat up) keeps it out of midsized range. 101 cubic feet of passenger volume is definitely in range with most midsized sedans, though, but I think your typical midsized wagon (which may be extinct now, with the proliferation of minivans and crossovers?) had around 40 cubic feet of cargo area.
As for the xA, this grossly upsized one you're talking about, is that the xD? Or is there still an xA? I'm 'fused. :P Anyway, according to the EPA at least, the xD, while larger on the outside, actually has LESS interior volume than the xA did. It's still classified as a subcompact. Heck, it looks like Toyota's starting to pick up some of GM, Ford, and Chrysler's bad habits from the 70's by redesigning cars that are bigger on the outside, yet smaller on the inside, than their forebears!
Scion ditched the xA for 2008 and now sells the xD as a replacement for it. They also are selling a remodeled xB for 2008 and a tC for 2008(no big changes in the tC, though).
It's got the same weight and power as my Echo, in a package which looks and handles better, and makes 47.9 mpg on the Euro cycle! If someone brought something like this to the U.S., then I would finally believe that automakers were getting serious about offering Americans real automotive choices. :mad:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I just read up on the little Mazda2...are you sure they're skipping the U.S.? Apparently my drooling caused me to miss that important little factoid. :sick:
This is what we need here in the U.S. Not a huge market share but there is a need for more of these. Looks good, too. Great mpg...I thik Mazda needs to import it here as early as spring of 2008, man.
But they won't, unfortunately. They already announced that decision a few months back. We will get the Ford version in about 18 months, porked up and dumbed down for the fat and silly Americans I'm sure......
boaz: you messin' with me?! ;-)
At least Honda still takes small cars seriously - in the next two years we will see the revised Fit, the new hybrid that is supposed to be smaller than the Civic, and the CRZ, spiritual successor to the CRX...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
At least Honda still takes small cars seriously - in the next two years we will see the revised Fit, the new hybrid that is supposed to be smaller than the Civic, and the CRZ, spiritual successor to the CRX...
Yeah, but they had "lost it" for a bit, and are going straight from CRX to CRZ, skipping CRY in the process. :P
Seriously though, Honda seems to be in a great position to reap the benefits of market shift towards smaller cars, a trend that is very likely to gain momentum.
Ohhh... I'm even a country music listener, but the only song she did that I could get to come to mind is "This Kiss."
It s the way you love me Its a feeling like this Its centrifugal motion Its perpetual bliss Its that pivotal moment Its, ah, impossible This kiss, this kiss Unstoppable
all be summed up in the idea that for most of us the sub compacts are too small and underpowered for our wants. Needs have nothing to do with it. I am still trying to get my hands on a small Justy just to buzz around town in. It is small but has more range than a Electric car. And right now it would be easier to pay for that most electric cars. However I would not rule out one of those GEMs produced by Chrysler in the future. It could never be a primary vehicle with a 6 to 8 hour charging time. But if they could ever get the range to something reasonable or make a quick charge system they would make a great city car.
But the point is the small car has to almost be something in addition to your regular car unless you are a died in the wool small car person. I don't mean small by compact standards because we all see what happens when you call something a compact truck. Look how big compact Toyotas have become.
all be summed up in the idea that for most of us the sub compacts are too small and underpowered for our wants. Needs have nothing to do with it.
As of now, yes. America has traditionally lagged behind the rest of the word in balancing needs and wants. And that is largely because things have come easy. See the gas prices go up, we will be talking needs. We would rather have 300 HP 6000 lb vehicles than 125 HP 2500 lb. vehicles.
There is a reason we're already seeing a lot more smaller cars being offered/considered now than was the case just a few years ago.
True, but as a nation we have a short memory. What is 4 bucks a gallon compared to England? Just driving from one end of California to the other is like driving all across Europe. We have more paved roads than any country and they tend to be wider. I remember the small car invasion in the 70s and the prediction that the day of the sub compact had arrived. Yes they made some very small cars. The Accord was one of them, remember?
The debate we have had for some time is what makes the sub compacts grow? Even shifty said the xD is an improvement over the xA and mostly that is from more HP. The conclusion was, it is cyclical. We feel the pinch and they introduce a sub compact. The pain starts to go away and that sub compact gets more power. The economy improves and that sub compact gets bigger. Shoot the advance of SUV came right on the heals of the sub compacts of the 70s.
Do you remember compacts trucks? Do you see any that qualify today? Subaru tried to re-invent the compact truck and they sold about 6. Well more than that but they were trying to figure how to drop production on them before the first model change. A new Toyota Tacoma is close to as big as a 56 Ford 100, maybe bigger. The Dakota is as big as a 76 F-150.
I agree the compact segment could increase in market share if things turn south. But if the economy recovers sub compacts are pushed to the back of the line every time. History almost always repetes itself.
It seems the bigger change we're seeing now is away from full size SUVs, but those folks aren't typically buying Fits, etc. Still, there's bigger gas savings going from a Tahoe to an Accord than an Accord to a Fit. Subcompacts will slowly gain, and if that 35 mpg mandate becomes law they'll really take off.
That or Hybrids. Americans look for loop holes and a 35MPG Crossover Lexus or Acura SUV holds a lot more status than a Fit or Echo. Sorry Yaris. I don't see a great move to make 900 square foot houses to cut energy costs. In my area they are still building 2500-3500 Square foot new homes even as the market slides. Yes people are moving from full sized SUVs but I will agree those people aren't jumping to sub compacts. Nor are Accord drivers backing into Civics and Civic drivers backing into Fits. New buyers maybe but in three years they will be moving up. You can almost bet on it.
I think that for families of 4, a car such as the Honda Fit make the perfect 2nd car, so even if 1/2 the cars on the road were the smaller 2nd cars, that would really reduce fuel consumption.
We have a Ford Freestyle as our big vehicle for the summer road trips and when relatives visit, but I'm now thinking that when it comes time to replace it, it might be better just to buy another Honda Fit and just rent a minivan for the one or two times a year when I need it for a 2-3 long road trip. Or I'd get something like a Kia Rondo or Mazda 5 for the occasional 3rd row use. The problem with these two vehicles is that from what I've read, they're only getting mid to high 20s hwy mpg, which is what I get with our FS.
Yep, Edmunds is getting 18/25 city/hwy with their Rondo v6, so it's ok but not great on gas. Of course, they're managing only about 31mpg with their manual Fit - what a bunch of lead foots!
I think these folks provide a pretty good indication of Fit's real world fuel economy. Under my leadfoot, I can expect mid 30s from Fit in mixed driving and that would be a big improvement over even my midsizers that get impressive fuel economy (for the size/power and the way they are driven), both around 25-26 mpg in mixed driving.
That would be one big reason that I think the little Fit would be a fitting replacement to my old Accord.
Can you get two car seats in a Fit? I don't know because they look pretty narrow to me. I know for a family of five a Fit would be out of the question.
My problem with sub compacts is they are just a minimum of what you need. There is no where to go but up from there. I know I have been to Europe and have seen what their families make do with. Yes it can be done but the effort they put out to do anything as a family just hardly seems worth it. Have you ever seen a Echo sized vehicle with a Canoe on top? It may work but it sure doesn't look like it will make it.
I have read about how much Shifty can put in his xA. Once again it seems like a lot of work when you could just as easily toss all of that stuff in the back of a Compact truck with no pre planning.
The other thing is if you are a home owner most sub compacts will hardly even pull a small utility trailer. How do people get things home from home depot? Well I guess you could pay to have it delivered.
Even an "American midsize" is useless for a family of five but that also happens to be the best selling segment. So, clearly, that ability is not a must have.
Besides, I have long considered minivans to be the best option for families, over SUVs. But they aren't as "cool". And there goes "want" taking over "need".
Thanks, I had no clue. The Fit just looks narrow from the back and even worse from the front. The Mini looks square so it seems as if it might work. But as the owner said it was a backup family car.
Can you get two car seats in a Fit? I don't know because they look pretty narrow to me Easily
My problem with sub compacts is they are just a minimum of what you need hmmm easily seats 4 and 21CuFt of cargo space...doesn't sound minimum to me.
The other thing is if you are a home owner most sub compacts will hardly even pull a small utility trailer For $20 I can rent a truck at Lowes if I need to carry 4x8 sheets of plywood.
Really, too, we have to ask ourselves how many times in the last year, or the last five, did we actually GO out there and BUY 4x8 sheets of plywood? How often do we actually HAUL more than three adults besides ourselves? If once or twice or less, why have that big truck or oversize car? Rent it by the day from the local Enterprise or by the hour from the Home Depot and save yourself money!
In autos as in so many other aspects of American society, laziness and excess seem to dictate consumers' choices and behavior - why do we celebrate that and want to defend it so fiercely? Those aren't traits we usually celebrate outside the realm of commodities, so why celebrate them here (and in real estate, and in meal size, and in...)?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The other thing is if you are a home owner most sub compacts will hardly even pull a small utility trailer
For $20 I can rent a truck at Lowes if I need to carry 4x8 sheets of plywood.
It definitely matters how often you need to do this. When I am doing a lot of landscaping or such, I have no problem renting the truck for $20. The Contour brought home a new deck surface in 2 trips using the roof rack.
When I am craigslisting or eBaying furniture, then the Legacy can pull a uHaul trailer (2700#), but its not a compact. It does get mileage in the 30s though (not while pulling the trailer ).
My purchase decision wouldn't be affected by the 2-3x/year I need to do these activities.
I have an Elantra wagon and it has been put to use in aspects like that many times in the last 7+ years. Been in my current home for the last 4 years and it was new construction. So every year there is some new project, either landscaping, finishing the basement, putting in a deck or simply decorating that the wagon has been a godsend.
Its not overly big but what cannot be put in the back can easily be tied to the roof rack.
Now that doesn't even include hauling stuff for family picnics, camping and the like.
You get to small and its your only car it can be a hassle.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
sure we could. We could all take walks and we could all slow down our lives. But do we and will we? We could easily sit closer to a 22 inch TV rather than have a big screen but is that what we aspire to? What we seem to be bemoaning here is the American lifestyle as if it isn't the most desirable lifestyle in the world. Sure I could rent a truck, not for 20 bucks but I could rent one. I could rent my hand tools because I only use them maybe once a month. I could rent my drill press and my compressor because I use them maybe six times a year. I could rent my generator because the power most often only goes out in the winter or I could cook on our fireplace insert and read by oil or coleman lamp. But how many Americans are going to view that as a viable alternative? Isn't it nice to walk out to your driveway and have the tool you need right there? A car is just that a tool, nothing more. A sub compact is a small tool that can do most things a larger one does. But just because we might only use a quad or dirt bike a few times a year how many rent them to head out to the dirt? When I had a boat I didn't use it every weekend but I didn't rent one either. A sports car can only be used as a sports car a very few times a year. It is not used as a sports car commuting during the week but we don't rent sports cars.
We have the economy and culture that allows us to go beyond our basic needs and acquire some of our dreams or wants. For sub compacts to fill that slot in our culture something drastic has to happen, most of us will call that a disaster or at least a depression. We also live where people that wish to live the basic life can do so and we aren't the kind of people to object to that. But Americans will resist joining in the concept of a basic life as long as they can afford more.
I might agree that we would live longer and maybe even co-exist with out fellow man better if we simplified our lives. I just don't think that is going to happen. And if you look at the kids that are coming up to take the leadership role vacated by the boomers and their children I doesn't look like the game boy generation will be all the different. Some of them can text faster than I can type.
You know you're right...I'm going out this weekend and buy a sports car, 2 dirtbikes, a boat, camper, full-size pickup truck and while I'm at it an airplane because it's more convenient than booking a flight
Each of us chooses for themselves where to draw the line when it comes time to spend our money on conveniences. If you have all the money to buy everything above, then have fun. I only hope you're not working 10-12 hours a day or more just for more things...but again that's an individual choice. But I'm all for other folks spending lots of money on things because it's a real boost for the economy.
On the other hand, I'd rather work my 8 hours/day at a pretty relaxed job, allow my wife to stay home raising the kids and taking classes, over a month of vacation every year to travel the country, having a home in a nice neighborhood that's paid off, as well as two cars that will be paid off in a few months. The main reason I can do this is because I'm careful on how money is spent but at the same time we're not sitting around thinking about how much we miss not having a driveway full of giant vehicles and a garage full of dirt bikes and canoes!
And actually the American lifestyle isn't envied all over the world. True that some countries think that Hollywood represents America, but in many countries they look at the school shootings, number of folks on drugs, our long work hours, our little vacation time, the number getting killed on the highway, poverty, crime rate, poor quality of healtcare, etc and wonder how a county as rich as America have all of these problems unheard of in many parts of the world, especially in Europe.
"We could easily sit closer to a 22 inch TV rather than have a big screen but is that what we aspire to?" And it's a sad day when folks aspiration in life is to have a big screen TV...at least our children will have parents with different aspirations.
I think you are missing the point. Success in the market place doesn't come from what we should be doing, it comes from what we as a nation do. Sure there are those of us who long for a simpler life. As do I . But how simple are we talking? The real point is will these cars be a success because they meet our wants or will our nation change its wants to make them a success? I don't think we will change all that much.
Still more people are moving here that away from here so there must be something people are looking for they aren't getting in other places.
You seem to have found a compromise that works for you but are you simply living a life of basic needs? Do you have the smallest home you could afford? One might ask if your wife stays home why do you have two cars? Your answer more than likely will be an example of why we are not like the people in Europe or Asia.
It is the idea that we should only buy what we need and rent everything else that surprises me. We could and in Europe many people do. But we aren't in Europe and it is unlikely we will change our lifestyle to be more like Europe.
I am not attacking you choices they seem desirable to me. I am saying the fix is not as easy as some would indicate.
The good thing about America is that we have choices and freedom...and that's the bad thing too because a lot of folks suffer for the bad choices and freedoms of others. For every freedom and choice we restrict on certain things, guns, smoking, or huge cars, we would improve the overall society (no less deaths, lower health costs, less dependence on oil and safer roads). Like I said, people can buy with their money whatever they like, but I don't consider it a "sacrifice" to drive a small car anymore than I think it's a "sacrifice" to mow my own lawn versus hiring someone.
It sounds like you have a lot of tools and need a bigger vehicle for all of the runs to Home Depot or Lowes, so you don't want to have to rent their trucks everytime you bring something large home. On the other hand, some folks may look at your situation as "depressing" because the poor guy's house is so run-down that he needs to run to Lowes every month to patch it together. I'd rather drive the subcompact and use the money to buy a better house, so you won't need to drive to Lowes so often :P I'm just joking, but the idea of "sacrificing" by buying a small car so you can have a bigger one for all of the manual-labor activities seems strange to me. I'd rather have two inexpensive small cars in my 2-car garage and live in a house that doesn't require frequent trips to Lowes to keep the house from falling apart, or just hire someone for the remodeling project saving me time and using the $$ saved from buying small cars to pay for the construction project. Again, it's all on how you choose to spend your money and how much you value your time.
And most people moving into this country aren't doing so because they love America. They would much rather stay where they came from with their families and culture, but they simply need the money and America is a huge consuming and spending nation that does a great job of circulating money.
But to go back on subject, I don't think it would depressing if every car I saw commuting to work tomorrow morning was a subcompact. By the way, what vehicles do you own and are they all parked in your garage?
Comments
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No, I just think of them in the same relationship to the other cars of their time. I also think of the Yaris as a slightly less attractive Corolla. (read looks a little like a frog.) Only you get more HP in the corolla. It is a bit like you said with the xA. The xD made it closer to perfect. The Yaris is in the same boat.
Oh, and the Dodge Colt with the 2 sticks for "power" and economy were a hoot too. We used to put McDonalds fast food trays under the back wheels, pull the e-brake, and then go sliding around the HS parking lot. Good times.
The late 80's Colt Turbo was actually competition for the Civic SI of the time (and I guess VW GTI, too) and was reasonably respectable excepting the on-boost/off-boost torque steer.
That shoots the legend of the invincible Toyotas with no repairs needed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The vaunted "old Volvos" ate camshafts like corn flakes but they still ran, sorta kinda, and is there an old Mercedes "rugged" diesel in the world with a working climate control?
So that's only one part of a whole car, as opposed to cars where most things break.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regarding the relationships, the original Scion xA and xB were both related to the Yaris that was being made at the time, and the Echo, which was also based on that earlier Yaris. The current xA appears to be related to the current Yaris, and the xB appears to be related to the current Matrix/Vibe (and Toyota considers the Matrix to be a Corolla). But Toyota is about to re--do the Matrix/Vibe.
I was behind a new xB in the way home last night. I thought it looked pretty decent from the rear and side. But once I got ahead of it, I decided that the front is still ugly. :P
I wonder if the xA still is, after the gross upsizing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I wonder if the xA still is, after the gross upsizing.
Wow...I just looked at the EPA's specs for the 2008 xB. That thing got HUGE inside! While the first-gen was rated at 90 cubic feet of passenger volume and 21 cubic feet of cargo area, the new one is 101 passenger/22 cargo. The EPA still classifies it as a "small wagon", though. I guess that relatively small cargo area (with the back seat up) keeps it out of midsized range. 101 cubic feet of passenger volume is definitely in range with most midsized sedans, though, but I think your typical midsized wagon (which may be extinct now, with the proliferation of minivans and crossovers?) had around 40 cubic feet of cargo area.
As for the xA, this grossly upsized one you're talking about, is that the xD? Or is there still an xA? I'm 'fused. :P Anyway, according to the EPA at least, the xD, while larger on the outside, actually has LESS interior volume than the xA did. It's still classified as a subcompact. Heck, it looks like Toyota's starting to pick up some of GM, Ford, and Chrysler's bad habits from the 70's by redesigning cars that are bigger on the outside, yet smaller on the inside, than their forebears!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Sedans_Coupes_and_Hatchbacks/We_- Drive_Mazdas_2.S180.A13496.html
It's got the same weight and power as my Echo, in a package which looks and handles better, and makes 47.9 mpg on the Euro cycle! If someone brought something like this to the U.S., then I would finally believe that automakers were getting serious about offering Americans real automotive choices. :mad:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is what we need here in the U.S. Not a huge market share but there is a need for more of these. Looks good, too. Great mpg...I thik Mazda needs to import it here as early as spring of 2008, man.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
boaz: you messin' with me?! ;-)
At least Honda still takes small cars seriously - in the next two years we will see the revised Fit, the new hybrid that is supposed to be smaller than the Civic, and the CRZ, spiritual successor to the CRX...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, but they had "lost it" for a bit, and are going straight from CRX to CRZ, skipping CRY in the process. :P
Seriously though, Honda seems to be in a great position to reap the benefits of market shift towards smaller cars, a trend that is very likely to gain momentum.
Hehe
It s the way you love me
Its a feeling like this
Its centrifugal motion
Its perpetual bliss
Its that pivotal moment
Its, ah, impossible
This kiss, this kiss
Unstoppable
Yeah, now who wants to cry?
But the point is the small car has to almost be something in addition to your regular car unless you are a died in the wool small car person. I don't mean small by compact standards because we all see what happens when you call something a compact truck. Look how big compact Toyotas have become.
As of now, yes. America has traditionally lagged behind the rest of the word in balancing needs and wants. And that is largely because things have come easy. See the gas prices go up, we will be talking needs. We would rather have 300 HP 6000 lb vehicles than 125 HP 2500 lb. vehicles.
There is a reason we're already seeing a lot more smaller cars being offered/considered now than was the case just a few years ago.
The debate we have had for some time is what makes the sub compacts grow? Even shifty said the xD is an improvement over the xA and mostly that is from more HP. The conclusion was, it is cyclical. We feel the pinch and they introduce a sub compact. The pain starts to go away and that sub compact gets more power. The economy improves and that sub compact gets bigger. Shoot the advance of SUV came right on the heals of the sub compacts of the 70s.
Do you remember compacts trucks? Do you see any that qualify today? Subaru tried to re-invent the compact truck and they sold about 6. Well more than that but they were trying to figure how to drop production on them before the first model change. A new Toyota Tacoma is close to as big as a 56 Ford 100, maybe bigger. The Dakota is as big as a 76 F-150.
I agree the compact segment could increase in market share if things turn south. But if the economy recovers sub compacts are pushed to the back of the line every time. History almost always repetes itself.
We have a Ford Freestyle as our big vehicle for the summer road trips and when relatives visit, but I'm now thinking that when it comes time to replace it, it might be better just to buy another Honda Fit and just rent a minivan for the one or two times a year when I need it for a 2-3 long road trip. Or I'd get something like a Kia Rondo or Mazda 5 for the occasional 3rd row use. The problem with these two vehicles is that from what I've read, they're only getting mid to high 20s hwy mpg, which is what I get with our FS.
That would be one big reason that I think the little Fit would be a fitting replacement to my old Accord.
My problem with sub compacts is they are just a minimum of what you need. There is no where to go but up from there.
I know I have been to Europe and have seen what their families make do with. Yes it can be done but the effort they put out to do anything as a family just hardly seems worth it. Have you ever seen a Echo sized vehicle with a Canoe on top? It may work but it sure doesn't look like it will make it.
I have read about how much Shifty can put in his xA. Once again it seems like a lot of work when you could just as easily toss all of that stuff in the back of a Compact truck with no pre planning.
The other thing is if you are a home owner most sub compacts will hardly even pull a small utility trailer. How do people get things home from home depot? Well I guess you could pay to have it delivered.
Two child seats
Besides, I have long considered minivans to be the best option for families, over SUVs. But they aren't as "cool". And there goes "want" taking over "need".
Easily
My problem with sub compacts is they are just a minimum of what you need
hmmm easily seats 4 and 21CuFt of cargo space...doesn't sound minimum to me.
The other thing is if you are a home owner most sub compacts will hardly even pull a small utility trailer
For $20 I can rent a truck at Lowes if I need to carry 4x8 sheets of plywood.
In autos as in so many other aspects of American society, laziness and excess seem to dictate consumers' choices and behavior - why do we celebrate that and want to defend it so fiercely? Those aren't traits we usually celebrate outside the realm of commodities, so why celebrate them here (and in real estate, and in meal size, and in...)?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
For $20 I can rent a truck at Lowes if I need to carry 4x8 sheets of plywood.
It definitely matters how often you need to do this. When I am doing a lot of landscaping or such, I have no problem renting the truck for $20. The Contour brought home a new deck surface in 2 trips using the roof rack.
When I am craigslisting or eBaying furniture, then the Legacy can pull a uHaul trailer (2700#), but its not a compact. It does get mileage in the 30s though (not while pulling the trailer
My purchase decision wouldn't be affected by the 2-3x/year I need to do these activities.
Its not overly big but what cannot be put in the back can easily be tied to the roof rack.
Now that doesn't even include hauling stuff for family picnics, camping and the like.
You get to small and its your only car it can be a hassle.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We have the economy and culture that allows us to go beyond our basic needs and acquire some of our dreams or wants. For sub compacts to fill that slot in our culture something drastic has to happen, most of us will call that a disaster or at least a depression. We also live where people that wish to live the basic life can do so and we aren't the kind of people to object to that. But Americans will resist joining in the concept of a basic life as long as they can afford more.
I might agree that we would live longer and maybe even co-exist with out fellow man better if we simplified our lives. I just don't think that is going to happen. And if you look at the kids that are coming up to take the leadership role vacated by the boomers and their children I doesn't look like the game boy generation will be all the different. Some of them can text faster than I can type.
Each of us chooses for themselves where to draw the line when it comes time to spend our money on conveniences. If you have all the money to buy everything above, then have fun. I only hope you're not working 10-12 hours a day or more just for more things...but again that's an individual choice. But I'm all for other folks spending lots of money on things because it's a real boost for the economy.
On the other hand, I'd rather work my 8 hours/day at a pretty relaxed job, allow my wife to stay home raising the kids and taking classes, over a month of vacation every year to travel the country, having a home in a nice neighborhood that's paid off, as well as two cars that will be paid off in a few months. The main reason I can do this is because I'm careful on how money is spent but at the same time we're not sitting around thinking about how much we miss not having a driveway full of giant vehicles and a garage full of dirt bikes and canoes!
And actually the American lifestyle isn't envied all over the world. True that some countries think that Hollywood represents America, but in many countries they look at the school shootings, number of folks on drugs, our long work hours, our little vacation time, the number getting killed on the highway, poverty, crime rate, poor quality of healtcare, etc and wonder how a county as rich as America have all of these problems unheard of in many parts of the world, especially in Europe.
"We could easily sit closer to a 22 inch TV rather than have a big screen but is that what we aspire to?" And it's a sad day when folks aspiration in life is to have a big screen TV...at least our children will have parents with different aspirations.
Still more people are moving here that away from here so there must be something people are looking for they aren't getting in other places.
You seem to have found a compromise that works for you but are you simply living a life of basic needs? Do you have the smallest home you could afford? One might ask if your wife stays home why do you have two cars? Your answer more than likely will be an example of why we are not like the people in Europe or Asia.
It is the idea that we should only buy what we need and rent everything else that surprises me. We could and in Europe many people do. But we aren't in Europe and it is unlikely we will change our lifestyle to be more like Europe.
I am not attacking you choices they seem desirable to me. I am saying the fix is not as easy as some would indicate.
It sounds like you have a lot of tools and need a bigger vehicle for all of the runs to Home Depot or Lowes, so you don't want to have to rent their trucks everytime you bring something large home. On the other hand, some folks may look at your situation as "depressing" because the poor guy's house is so run-down that he needs to run to Lowes every month to patch it together. I'd rather drive the subcompact and use the money to buy a better house, so you won't need to drive to Lowes so often :P I'm just joking, but the idea of "sacrificing" by buying a small car so you can have a bigger one for all of the manual-labor activities seems strange to me. I'd rather have two inexpensive small cars in my 2-car garage and live in a house that doesn't require frequent trips to Lowes to keep the house from falling apart, or just hire someone for the remodeling project saving me time and using the $$ saved from buying small cars to pay for the construction project. Again, it's all on how you choose to spend your money and how much you value your time.
And most people moving into this country aren't doing so because they love America. They would much rather stay where they came from with their families and culture, but they simply need the money and America is a huge consuming and spending nation that does a great job of circulating money.
But to go back on subject, I don't think it would depressing if every car I saw commuting to work tomorrow morning was a subcompact. By the way, what vehicles do you own and are they all parked in your garage?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)