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Comments
Those people who are really complaining about their Hybrid mileage are often unclear on this concept as well. The Hybrids do better in city driving.
Also, the car's gearing is really going to affect EPA ratings. If a car is geared low for peppy performance, like the xA, it's going to suffer if the tachometer stays at 4000 rpm on an LA freeway. If it's geared high, like the '95 Corolla I'm driving, you'll get BETTER gas mileage at 75 mph in the Corolla (heavier, bigger engine, automatic transmission) than the xA. And if you drive a Prius all day at 75 mph, the Corolla might beat THAT one, too or just about match it.
So really, driving habits are a big part of this equation. I'd guess at least 20% of the equation.
How many times have we heard the praises of a new car that is about to come in to this country and stun us with great gas mileage? Once that vehicle gets here it most often proves to be far less than we expected. Also cars that seem to work well in the small crowded streets of Rome, Madrid or London almost fall apart before our eyes on the freeways of LA.
People have tried to manufacturer the City car for the US consumer for as about as long as I can remember. The problem is if we can drive the things in the city during the week we will most often try to use them on the weekends driving from LA to San Diego. And even if they weren't designed to to that well we will complain because they don't do that as well as an Accord or at least a Civic.
Then the question becomes, what about your wife? Does she also need to be picking up your kids?
Unless a new teleportation device has been invented to get them from home to pre-school or pre-school to soccer practice, etc, yes, my wife needs to transport children as well.
The point being is that a lot of families with two cars don't need a back seat and the cargo area of a pickup in both cars.
I'm not talking about 2 Expeditions, I am talking about a Legacy (30mpg) and an Accord (34 mpg).
Bad example because you are not dealing with two equal things of the same price. The Smart costs less than most of the cars it is being compared to and gets better gas mileage. So you are trading more utility (which you may never use) for less mileage.
The Smart doesn't cost appreciably less comparably equipped (AC, radio, etc), and the cost of that utility is so minuscule that I think there is a value to having it. I can think of 3 days in the last 2 weeks where I didn't need a back seat.
EPA estimates for the Aveo is 34 Highway, The Smart is supposed to come in more than 10 MPG more than that highway and is only about 1,500 less
Actually the SmartUSA website shows 40 mpg, and requires PREMIUM fuel. That more then negates a 6 mpg advantage in fuel economy.
Hmmm.
$3.23/ 40 mpg = 8.075 cents per mile
$2.99/ 34 mpg = 8.794 cents per mile
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well are you transporting your kids when your wife is?
My whole point is that for most families all the capacity can be utilized with one car. The second car wouldn't need it. When my kids were growing up we used a van. If I was picking up or dropping off the kids I used the van, If my wife was she used the van. The other car didn't need a back seat.
Most two car families don't need more than what a smart gives in the second car.
I can think of 3 days in the last 2 weeks where I didn't need a back seat.
I can think of at least 4,000 days in the last 11 years (since we were married) where if I needed a back seat I would have been no issue at all to grab the wifes car. In other words there really hasn't been a time when we needed a back seat in a second car.
Actually the SmartUSA website shows 40 mpg,
The SmartUSA website estimates that they will have a combined 40MPG which means it will get better than that on the highway.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
At any rate, if you have to haul around lumber or kids on a regular basis, the Smart isn't for you. It is for people who mostly drive alone and aren't scared to be on the road with bigger vehicles. Similarly equipped, it costs about the same and performs about the same as a decent subcompact, so it's a matter of trading the back seat and half the trunk for a 20-25% mileage boost.
I just couldn't see how it wouldn't drive a person nuts in a few months time, except for the Few, The Chosen, who live on Broadway & 42nd St. and commute to the Empire State Building.
The front passenger seat folds down like the seats in the XB and Fit, so you can manage to get a lot more in there than you'd probably believe possible at first. And the wider body and redesigned seats gives you a useable area behind the seats that's exactly the same size as the trunk in an Aveo or other small car.
See, most normal people, when they actually drive it, have the seats pretty close to the frontmost settings and there is a good 4-6 inches of open space of the "trunk" area's floor that opens up. The seats move at least a foot back and forth but I am 5'7" and had to put them really far forward. It's a larger trunk than in a Mini in any case. Or a Boxster or any number of other small vehicles. I measured a good two feet+ with the seats in a normal position..
As for the mileage, that's real-world COMBINED. EPA figures will be something like 35/50 or some nonsense, with 40mpg being what you get actually driving it around. That's Pruis MPG for half the cost.
I would go further and say if its your only car its not for you. However I do think it would be a perfect second (commuter) car for a family that has multiple cars.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Besides, one doesn't have to drive a car to project its utility. You just play with it and figure it out. I can tell I'm not getting a mountain bike in there like I do with a Scion xA.
Their Canadian website gives mileage estimates as using 5.9 Liters per 100Km city, 4.8 highway and 5.4 combined that comes to 40MPG city 49 Highway and 43.5 combined.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
At any rate, I bet the "real world" numbers will be closer than you think.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well are you transporting your kids when your wife is?
At the exact same time, no.
My whole point is that for most families all the capacity can be utilized with one car. The second car wouldn't need it. When my kids were growing up we used a van. If I was picking up or dropping off the kids I used the van, If my wife was she used the van. The other car didn't need a back seat.
Much of the utility is lost if I have to come all the way home and switch cars. If I have to drive all the way home and then turn around and pick up the kids, That is about 12 miles of additional driving, in addition to an extra half hour of driving around.
Most two car families don't need more than what a smart gives in the second car.
I disagree. I think in the 50's when everyone had a Country Squire and a VW bug and mom stayed home all the time, etc, it was fine (and the bug did have a back seat) but I think in the current time, young familes need two real cars. It might be great for retires or something, but it doesn't "Fit" in my life right now.
But I am biased in that where I live the Smart simply wouldn't cut it. If you ever drove it down to the flat lands you would need a sun dial to time it coming back up the mountain. Now if the Smart was 6 or 7K we might have something to consider.
Try 36, 13 less than what Smarts Canadian website states.
So I seriously doubt that Mini will come close to the Smart. Even if I get the city mileage I will still beat out the Minis mileage and for less money.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree that most families need two cars but disagree that a majority cannot do with one being a Smart. Most two car families can do with one car being a small commuter with no back seat.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So if it gets 40-something at 55mph, what does it get the way American drivers will actually use it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The official Smart website says:
"he vehicle is designed to achieve 40 plus mpg under normal driving conditions and current standards."
So I'd say we're in a dead heat!
But we'll see once we get some people reporting on each car, with one hand on a Bible.
I can't think of anyone of my friends or peers that would have a use for a vehicle with no back seat (or a seating capacity of less than 4) beyond a toy (ie Miata) and in that case, its the 3rd car for families with 2 drivers. We are all mid-20s to mid-40s with 1-3 kids ranging from newborn through 12 or 13. We have 20-30 minute each way commutes. In some families the mom is a full time home-maker in other families the mom works full time in a career. A few families have one "new" minivan and the dad drives the hand me down so she can drop off the carpool and he can pick up on the way home from work, etc. I am that demographic, and it ain't gonna work for me.
If I was a single college student or young professional, or a retiree, or even a DINK, it might be a possibility, but even in those situations, there would be some pretty substantial limitations.
Nope I checked the EPA website prior to posting its 36 (down from 40 the old reporting way) so I will use 36 and not 40. Sorry.
Maybe you were looking at the Cooper S with automatic?
Nope the EPA has that at 32 (or was it 33?)
The official Smart website says:
The Canadian website which gives actual figures for the 2008 Smart thats IIRC is the same one we are getting gets 49 Highway and 40 city so the Smart is way ahead.
But I will admit that all may change when the EPA gives its estiments.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know many people that don't need a second car with a back seat. Most people I have talked to admit that they could easily get away with never having anyone in the back seat of one of their cars.
Tell me how many cars on your regular commute have more than one person in it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And we have testimony from Carspace members who are hitting 40 mpg.
I'm gonna stick with my estimates. Think of the bright side. I might buy one and then have to eat crow online here. :P
I know many people that don't need a second car with a back seat. Most people I have talked to admit that they could easily get away with never having anyone in the back seat of one of their cars.
Good, it sounds like these empty nesters or single folk who don't need to go over 70 mph will be a great match for this vehicle.
Tell me how many cars on your regular commute have more than one person in it?
It depends where you look...on the expressway not too many, but that is because they dropped the kids off at school already. I'm not saying it won't work for anybody, I am just saying it has somewhat of a niche market.
Actually I am talking family people with kids.
It depends where you look...on the expressway not too many, but that is because they dropped the kids off at school already.
I do think that the majority of kids are taken to school in school buses. My commute through a couple of subdivisions seem to confirm that as there are a number of kids at each intersection.
I am just saying it has somewhat of a niche market.
Its a niche market simply because to many people think they need more than they really need.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The Cooper is rated like 27/36 in the new system, and the Smart will probably be about 35/45, it seems. There is a lot of gas to be saved by going with the Smart.
I finally saw a Smart up close and personal this weekend, and I am beginning to join the Shifty camp. I am used to driving small hatchbacks, and I am used to the dilemma of EITHER carrying four passengers OR carrying large/lots of gear. That has never entailed a limit on my lifestyle in 25 years of driving. But in the Smart you don't get that choice. 1 passenger and small packages are the limit (maybe you could use the passenger seat to carry stuff, but nothing large would fit anywhere in the vehicle). Mainly I think the tiny cargo space would be my biggest problem with it. The passenger limitation would be no big deal if it were just my commute car, and I had my Matrix at home for instance.
But whatever, it has no manual option, so it's off my radar now anyway. I am curious to see how well the SMT works in normal driving, but I wouldn't buy one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Since it is mainly a commuter car for city driving do you really want a manual? As much as I like them I would never and I mean NEVER drive a manual for my daily commute.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So the market advantage of a Smart is really SIZE, that's about it.
Is that enough to sell a $15K car, if other $15K cars can give you fun, space, gas mileage, beauty (??) and a lower price? Or at least most of these?
This sounds like a hard row to hoe IMO
The Smart does start under $12K which beats most cars and is supposed to have superior gas mileage and with a large percentage of cars being driven with only one person it in would fit the bill for a lot of people.
I will stand on my statement that it makes the perfect second commuter car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But you know, some people are easily amused and I don't wish to be a snob about that. Fun is subjective....I just don't see the potential staring me in the face here.
Pretty impressive chase scenes and the little Mini scooted down extended long steps fairly well. Charlize Theron enjoyed driving her Mini immensely and, incidently, did most all of her Mini's driving scenes. And I must say, the director pushes these people pretty hard in this flick in their Mini's.
One factoid I saw in the little extended clip they give you after the credits roll. To do the underground scenes with the Mini's going after the loot and the armored truck, the City of L.A. denied them doing those scenes with internal-combustion engined Mini's. So, they had to get to work making electrical-powered Mini's to complete the scene! The Jerry-rigging worked well and they got their underground shots.
Comparing the old Mini from 1969 to this new one really favors the new Mini-Cooper. It appears this car is very well put together and it handles many parts well.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Sans AC and radio
supposed to have superior gas mileage
And we will wait and see, but for something that is as fast as a VW Microbus, it should get good mileage.
I will stand on my statement that it makes the perfect second commuter car.
...for a limited sub-group of the population. Hopefully for Smart, its enough to support their business case.
How fast do you need to get to 60 in a normal commute?
How many times do you actually get to 60 in a normal commute?
I never read a review that called it fun.
I will take the word of someone who actually own the car thank you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sorry not a limited sub-group as many many cars out there rarely carry more than one person.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I guess I just don't know many of those. Or vehicles that have no need for cargo space. Or people that drive 70. Or people that don't need AC or a radio. Or people that don't see value in competing vehicles.
I think if someone wanted a 2 seater, the would be better off buying a Civic and taking the back seat out.
The new Mini's just seem so much more solid of a car than the 60's Mini's, even without any extra modifying.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Hmmm. RWD, 28.6 ft turning circle, manual steering. I think that can define a certain kind of fun, involving orange cones and timing boxes.
Hmmm. RWD, 28.6 ft turning circle, manual steering. I think that can define a certain kind of fun, involving orange cones and timing boxes.
2000lbs & 155/60R15s I don't know yet. Might be too floppy.
Not many compacts (or even mid-sizers, much less full size cars) outsell Corolla. Does that mean they have no real impact?
I was referring to 'fun to drive", btw, just to be clear, not "fun to own" or "fun to be seen in". That's more about "trendiness", which we've also touched on as a market force.