What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

andre1969

Not really. If you look at Honda's IMA system, the electric motor simply replaces the fly wheel. The IPU takes a little space, and battery is probably the biggest culprit.

I think the biggest compromise with hybrids is trunk space. Doesn't the hybrid system usually take out 3-4 cubic feet from cars like the Accord, Camry, and Altima? The Prius still has something like 16-17 cubic feet of trunk space partly because it's a hatchback, so they can count storage area all the way up to the rear window, but also partly because the car was built to be a hybrid from the get-go, versus being converted from a gasoline-only model.

Mr_Shiftright

I agree with the article....continually improving gas-engine- only subcompacts are going to continue to dominate over hybrids and microcars because they are just as good when all is said and done. I don't think there is enough room in the "small, fuel-efficient" market to serve 3 solutions.

Complexity over simplicity is good when the results are clearly superior.

V8 engine over flathead 6

Fuel injection over carburetors

12 volt batteries over 6 volt

But such things as hybrids over gas engine only, for a few MPG?

Or run-flat tires to save some trunk space?

Or i-Drive to save some buttons on the dash?

Not so sure those will continue to fly...maybe, maybe not.

texases

One thing that hybrids have done is open the door for more-expensive alterations to the IC engine. If $3000 is OK for some to spend on a hybrid, then the automakers can look at alternative ways to spend that $3000 (or less), such as MB's DiesOtto, VW's Twincharger, emissions-controlled diesels, etc. That's fine with me, good to have options.

Mr_Shiftright

Absolutely. Believe me, I have crunched these numbers until my head spins, trying to figure out the absolute best economic advantage when buying a new car, and I still come up "MINI" when you factor in gas mileage, fun, fabulous resale value.

If I trade in a Scion xA at 34 mpg using regular gas @ $3.25 a gallon, for a MINI at 38 mpg using premium fuel at $4 a gallon, I'm still ahead at the end of the year even without factoring in resale value.

With resale value and BMWs full maintenance program (Scion makes you pay for every 5K service interval), I' still ahead withe the MINI over any subcompact, diesel, hybrid you name it.

Of course I mean NEW cars. I'm sure an old used VW TDI could beat my numbers, as long as it doesn't break...heh...heh...

robertsmx

When it comes to engineering, I prefer to leave the challenge to the engineers instead of taking the writers at NY Times (and others) too seriously. We don’t know what future holds. Hybrids do have the big challenge in energy storage, and while watching a program, couple of weeks ago, on proliferation of solar energy in Germany, the same issue was brought up.

I’m not sold on plug-in technology for that reason. It adds to the problem without much, if any, gain. Automakers are advertising relatively long distance driving solely on electric power, but I’ve a feeling they are about as credible as a store advertising sale at “up to 80%” discount when in fact most items are probably 25-30% off.

One of the technologies that started to promise a drastic change was around HCCI. And Honda was expected to showcase a prototype over a year ago. This technology, if it happens, might actually work better in a hybrid set up than as a standalone engine choice. We will see if, and when, it comes around. As of now, we’re only looking at what we have had around, and that isn’t enough to draw conclusions for the future.

Honda recently revealed CR-Z prototype, which is supposed to be a revival of the vaunted CR-X. It looked like it, but with a key difference. It had a hybrid power train. Honda had done this about ten years ago as well, 1997 Honda JV-X. Couple of years later, we saw the Insight. Honda is promising CR-Z shortly, and it might be gasoline powered, but Honda has also promised an economy hybrid, and this time in a more practical body style than Insight was. If Honda can deliver with the promised hybrid premium of about $1700, something like a Fit or slightly better could potentially cost only $17K-$18K.

As for mileage, we will just have to wait and see. Personally, I will be surprised if it didn’t get 50 mpg in real world mixed driving. And if it does, we might be talking 35-40% improvement over a Fit.

texases

If Honda can do a hybrid for $1700, they'll be in good shape. Going from, say, 34 mpg to, say, 51 mpg (a 50% improvement) will save about $2,200 over 75,000 miles at $3/gallon. It'll take about 58,000 miles to pay off the $1700.

thegraduate

And, if we are at $3 in winter months, I'd say its a safe bet we'll be solidly over the $3.50 mark nationally by next April.

I just filled up my car for $2.82 Saturday. By Saturday night, that same station had regular at $2.87.

This stinks.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh we're commonly at $3.50 already in California, for premium.

It'll punch through $4 at this rate long before next spring, a least in California metro areas, freeways, etc.

I haven't seen $2.82 anywhere, anytime in California, even in the most obscure places, not even as a cash price at the discount chains.

yparker

I am the proud owner of a 1995 Toyota Tercel. My daughter purchased it for me almost three years ago, and it was love at first sight! It is white, 2-door and very sporty looking. Although it is 12 years old, it looks brand new...and runs like it too! It had 98,000 miles on it then; it has 114,517 on it now....and runs fabuously! It has a Tweety Bird tag on front w/my name, "Yvonne," Black and Yellow Tweety Bird seatcovers, Tweety Bird steering wheel cover and Tweety Bird and Sylvester hanging from my rear-view mirror.

There is just one thing. The front driver's side speaker cover is missing. It fit loosely when I got the car, and fell off several times when I opened or shut the door. One day I noticed it missing, and was never able to find it. I have been trying to find a replacement, to no avail. If anyone knows how or where I could find one, I would be forever grateful!

Yvonne

british_rover

Yeah $3.50 for premium is about right in CT as well.

Until last week you could still find regular for under 3.00 bucks at some places but now they are all over 3.00.

oregonboy

Most stations in the Tacoma area seem to be about $3.219 for regular.

Yvonne, take your car to an auto stereo store. They probably have a huge pile of old speakers and grills in the back. They might be able to find something that works. Failing that, I'll bet that they would happily upgrade your speakers for a moderate amount, including brand-new grills!

james

texases

Failing that, I'll bet that they would happily upgrade your speakers for a moderate amount, including brand-new grills!

And if you like to listen to music, this could be the best money you could spend on that car's stereo. Stock speakers are almost always poor, especially what they'd put in a Tercel. No need to spend big money, either.

thegraduate

Yvonne,

First of all, when you told about your Tweety accessories, I could immediately hear tweety saying "I tought I taw a Toyota!" in his speech-impeded voice! Haha... neat little theme.

2nd of all, you might find a speaker cover you are looking for at a "pull-a-part" type junkyard. Just a thought, in case you haven't tried calling them.

snakeweasel

Trouble is that the Mini is awfully expensive for a paperweight.

oregonboy

Trouble is that the Mini is awfully expensive for a paperweight

non sequitur?

I must be missing something. :confuse:
james

snakeweasel

No not really just that the car is way to small for me to be in it. If I bought one it would sit unused some place simply because its to small.

Mr_Shiftright

too small how? It goes fast, it's well built, everybody loves it, good MPG, and a giant could fit in it. So what's not to like? Carrying sheets of plywood---yeah there's that.

snakeweasel

too small how?

To small as in to small, Can't fit in the thing. Close the door and the door handle is sticking in my side. Sure it has leg room and head room but no elbow room. Can hardly close the door when I get in side. Its too small.

alltorque

Not heard that complaint before. I think the correct phrase is - It's too small for me personally. If that's the case the car is not for you, end of topic, really.

andre1969

Does the new, redesigned Mini have the same problem? I seem to recall the previous model being tight in elbow room. Legroom was fine. Can't recall headroom, as it was a convertible with the top down.

I do remember noting that the back seat was utterly useless, but at least they went through the effort to give the thing some decent legroom.

Mr_Shiftright

I need a jpg of you guys. Are you all point guards for Dallas?

I am a big guy and I'm just swimming in room in a MINI.

Your elbow is SUPPOSED to touch the door, that's what arm rests are for.

So if you meant you want a car where your arm doesn't touch the door, I'd personally find that very tiring, having your elbows hanging there in outer space.

As for the right side, I'm fitting the optional arm rest.

The whole idea of a car with MINI's handling capabilities is to squeeze you in the seat. Not everyone likes that. But it's vital. If you have a typical squishy seat from a big touring car in there you'll be fighting the G forces all day as you whip around turns---very fatiguing.

So it's probably the seats that annoy you. They pinch your elbows forward a bit.

andre1969

Your elbow is SUPPOSED to touch the door, that's what arm rests are for.

Yeah, but there's a difference between resting your elbow on the armrest and having the armrest jam into your side.

It might just be a bad seating position more than anything else. I also noticed it with the Tacoma, a vehicle with much more shoulder room inside. Sometimes the seat itself is just jammed up against the door.

Mr_Shiftright

I think that's what's bugging you, the seats. You are not alone, I hear lots of complaints about 'sport seats' and too-severe bolsters on sporty cars/sporty sedans. They do not serve the larger person very well at all.

lilengineerboy

I think that's what's bugging you, the seats. You are not alone, I hear lots of complaints about 'sport seats' and too-severe bolsters on sporty cars/sporty sedans. They do not serve the larger person very well at all.

I think that is definitely true. The 95-96 Contour SEs had very deeply contoured and heavily bolstered seats (more so then the SVTs even) and I found them to be fantastic, but I am not a big dude. Those seats were great, it felt like the car was giving you a hug every time you got in.
They got de-contented because 1. Nasser liked the rental-car feel, 2. bigger folks couldn't fit so well (of course the LX and base models both had regular seats so I don't understand what the big deal was...)

british_rover

I am a bit on the wide side and never had any problem with the MINI Seats.

Not exactly sure what my Jacket size is though since I haven't had a suit made since my wedding. I would have to look and see what it says when I get home.

alltorque

Having driven a couple of early Mercedes I found the opposite problem; seats so wide that there was no lateral support. My first car - 1956 Vauxhall Velox - had bench front seat, (and no seat belts, of course). The huge steering wheel served two purposes : steering and something to hang on to whilst cornering. Thankfully those days are gone but not forgetten.

british_rover

Having driven a couple of early Mercedes I found the opposite problem; seats so wide that there was no lateral support... Thankfully those days are gone but not forgetten.

Haven't driven a Lexus lately have you? With the exception of the IS most of the Lexus models I have driven have been that way. Its been a long time since I drove a GS so I don't remember how well the seats were bolstered.

oregonboy

Hey, they know their market: wide-load, too much junk-in-the-trunk! :sick:

james

alltorque

aven't driven a Lexus lately have you? With the exception of the IS most of the Lexus models I have driven have been that way. Its been a long time since I drove a GS so I don't remember how well the seats were bolstered.

Haven't been in a GS for some years but I do lust after an LS600H and could forgive it any seating quirks just to be in something that out-S-classes a Merc. We saw a GS460 President in Dublin recently - all black + blacked-out windows. Looked like it should have been the staff car for the Irish Mafia.

Mr_Shiftright

One should always have a suit in case one is arrested.

british_rover

I have three but I haven't worn any of them since my wedding. Don't have a clue as to the measurements but I always fit fine in the MINI.

tiff_c

I think that's what's bugging you, the seats. You are not alone, I hear lots of complaints about 'sport seats' and too-severe bolsters on sporty cars/sporty sedans. They do not serve the larger person very well at all.

Yeah aggressive seat bolsters don't work very well once you weigh over 120 kilos.
However I do know what he means I've been in cars that just do not fit me and I'm not that big a guy. They are uncomfortable no matter what I do. The Toyota Corolla is this way as are a few other cars. It's not the size it's how it fits you.

qbrozen

but in that case they give you one. a nice vibrant orange one.

stever

One should always have a suit in case one is arrested.

Oh oh - would a blazer count?

Not to be too morbid, but a suit may come in handy for funerals.

Deaths From Small Car Accidents On The Rise (CBS 5)

kyfdx

I'm getting bigger all the time...

But, when I sat in a MINI Cooper S-model, with the sport seats, it was the most comfortable I've ever been, behind the wheel.

On the other hand, I can't get my cheeks between the side bolsters in an Impreza... :surprise:

nippononly

Seriously, I was all set to buy a last-gen Impreza 2.5i. But the seat bottom had these huge ridges left and right - I guess they were supposed to be bolsters but the space in between was so narrow, I wasn't comfortable for any stretch longer than 15 minutes - my legs filled the space in between the bolsters. So that was out.

Bolsters are one thing, huge iron ridges like that car had are quite another. :sick:

kyfdx

Exactly my experience.. I first experienced it, in a WRX STI at the car show.. I thought maybe it was an over-bolstered seat on a performance model..

But, my co-worker did one of those $199/mo. leases on a base Impreza, and the seat felt exactly the same..

ateixeira

The seats for the Impreza and Subaru overall vary a lot.

Early WRX seats were excellent, the 2002 ones are actually sought after.

Later models got wider seats, probably to accomodate wider folks better.

My 98 Forester's seats were narrow and heavily bolstered, but I liked them. Our 02 Legacy is spongy and unsupportive in comparison.

We're all shaped differently, so I guess the lesson here is try before you buy.

boaz47

The reported increase in small car deaths in the last few years. If the NHTSA is reporting over all deaths and injuries are down and yet small cars now account for a larger percentage of deaths what is that telling us?

lilengineerboy

If the NHTSA is reporting over all deaths and injuries are down and yet small cars now account for a larger percentage of deaths what is that telling us?

That there are more on the road. That they tend to be cheaper and lack the safety equipment of larger, fancier vehicles. That they tend to be bought by younger, less experienced drivers.

Correlation is easy to show, causation isn't.

boaz47

I agree but one still has to wonder if the increase in small cars has only risen 3 percent yet the death rate for small cars has increased 10 percent something else must be taking place. Unless we aren't accounting for more youthful drivers in used small cars.

lilengineerboy

Making "conclusions" based on aggregate statistics is good journalism but poor science.
I would also be curious as to what types of crashes account for those fatalities. Are Scions getting run over by Expeditions? Are they flying off the road in single vehicle off road crashes?
Other than basic physics which say things like getting hit by a truck in a Yugo is bad, I don't see inherent safety issues, other than the lack of side airbags in some models, etc.

ateixeira

small cars now account for a larger percentage of deaths what is that telling us?

They're being hit by Excursions.

boaz47

Thanks but I sort of figured that. As lilengineerboy has said it is hard to make direct connection but if the numbers don't add up in like percentages, 3 percent increase market share and 3 percent increase in deaths would be understandable. But a 3 percent increase in sales and a 10 percent increase in deaths is disturbing. And as your post pointed out with tongue in Cheek humor I do have a concern. My new tow vehicle is a 3/4 ton GMC 2500. It has great brakes and larger ones at that. But I do worry about hitting some sub compact that might decide to get out of their lane and off the freeway at the last minute, like last Saturday afternoon. It is bad enough to think about having to fix someone's vehicle but having to see them hauled away in a red and white van sounds like a real possibility.

nippononly

That's why we need to downsize you mondo-mega-truck drivers! ;-)

snakeweasel

Your elbow is SUPPOSED to touch the door, that's what arm rests are for.

Well your elbow should have enough room to be next to your body and not touch either the door or your side. In the case of the mini the door touches me side. My elbow has to be outside the window, not good.

snakeweasel

One should always have a suit in case one is arrested.

I thought one should always have a lawyer for that.

Or at the very least one of these

boaz47

Hahahaha. I figured someone might say that I should have guessed it would be you. I gave up big trucks for a while in 2001 and got another one in 2003 when I got the F-250 to pull the Jeep and then the 4runner. Sold the Truck in 2006 and figured I could live with just the Focus. But I couldn't and once I started thinking of something bigger I ended up in the GMC 2500. The wife has even agreed to a quad if I can fit it in the back. I can I am sure. I just forgot how much more room I have to allow just in case I have to make a quick stop. Saturday coming home in the Truck a small Civic decide at the last minute that they had almost missed their off ramp and came across two lanes to get off right in front of me. I saw him coming but I could feel the weight and if he had to stop suddenly it would have been all over. In the Focus it might have been bent sheet metal and maybe name calling but after reading the short NHTSA report I realized the truck more than likely would have ended the Civic's lane changing habits forever. I am not likely to give up my truck because someone else decides to risk their life in a sub compact anymore than I would if they decided to ride a motorcycle. The report did make me wonder what would happen if sub compacts were to become a marketing success to the same degree the Civic or Corolla has been.

My concern is if the market increase in small cars has increased the number of deaths to a greater percentage than the car increase itself could an even greater increase cause even more problems. In other words if a 3 percent increase in sub compact and compact sales has resulted in a 10 percent increase in small car deaths would a 6 percent increase cause a 20 percent increase in deaths? If the number one and number two best selling vehicles in the US are full sized trucks by such a large margin could we be looking at a traffic accident death rate increase for the first time in many years? That is assuming the cause is heavy SUVs and trucks and not mid sized car accidents verses sub compacts. This trend seems to mirror what happened during the small car invasion of the 70s.

The question is do sub compact drivers simply accept the risk as one of the drawbacks of owning a sub compact and that is the end of it? Isn't that the attitude of motorcycle riders? Or do they complain they are at an unfair risk because others haven't followed in their footsteps?

daysailer

To me, whatever risk the prospect of being struck by a larger vehicle may pose is offset by a more nimble/responsive vehicle that may allow me to AVOID large obstructions. Not to mention the greater pleasure of not driving a clumsy behemoth.

andre1969

That's why we need to downsize you mondo-mega-truck drivers!

That'll definitely help out by reducing instances where, say, an Excursion smears an xA or other little car. However, what about when the circumstances are reversed and, say, the little car whacks the big one?

Now an Excursion might be a bad example because it sits up high and that will cause more damage. However, let's say you're driving an xA and you hit a parked Crown Vic with it. Would the dynamics really be much different from hitting a parked Accent? I guess the Accent, being lighter, would budge more than the Crown Vic, but I'm sure the results on the xA would still be similar. Much more similar than if the xA were the hittee rather than the hitter!