What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

kyfdx

One big advantage over the Civic, is the four-door hatchback configuration, which the Civic doesn't offer.. You can actually use it as a family car...

texases

Seems like the Fit is the reincarnation of the mid '80s Civic wagon - they're within a couple of inches in most dimensions, engine/economy about the same, etc...

oregonboy

Please, use the last generation civic wagon as your comparison. It's cuter! :shades:

1990 Civic AWD wagon

texases

I was always amazed I (6'5") fit (sorry) fine in the back seat of those Civic wagons.

boaz47

But don't you wonder why they dropped those Civic hatchbacks and wagons? No one was buying them. The sedan sold very well. They even kept the coupe. But the Hatchbacks and wagons faded away. The Fit is just another attempt to get the American consumer interested in a small wagon. And one has to wonder how much of a family car the Fit would feel like with two teenagers, two adults and a baby or pet in it. With 109 HP it might seem a bit sluggish? With fewer people a Civic would work better. And it already has proven to be a marketing success.

ateixeira

Interesting, is it really as big?

Didn't those have RT4WD, though?

lilengineerboy

Oh man...memories. My MIL had one of those when I first started dating my wife (eh..she wasn't my wife when we were dating, we were just dating, then she became my wife...eh you get the idea...how did this all happen..)...alas I digress.

Anyway, one of my first memories was going up the grade north of the tunnel on 101 headed to Nojoqui Falls for a picnic. That little Civic was in 3rd or 4th gear going about 40 up that hill getting passed by the trucks and RVs. The car was pretty tired at that point though.

texases

The RT4WD was on some, but not all, I think. And the '88 Civic was a 4 inches longer, but most of the other exterior interior dimensions were very close.

thegraduate

The Civic Wagon had optional 4WD. My granddad had a 1987 Wagon without the 4WD. Slow as Christmas, but ran reliably until 255k miles, when he sold it for $1000. He did so because to fix the A/C that finally died after 15 years would cost more than the car was worth.

Crank windows, AM/FM tape deck, manual steering, and a 12-Valve engine with its 4-speed automatic. I think he told me they gave around $10k for it back in December of 1986.

boaz47

Just about everyone I know that had a Honda wagon loved it and were broken hearted when they were dropped. Yet they were still dropped because the average consumer wasn't looking for a small wagon. Both Honda and Toyota Dropped their wagons and now they are trying to re-introduce a wagon/hatchback to see if it will fly. I have to wonder if it will this time.

guss

Everyone seems to cry out for hatches and wagons like they have in Europe , but I guess when it comes time to buy Americans just prefer their sedans. It seems that that is turning around a bit with the Fit,Versa and now the Astra and Smart.

But then Ford goes and drops the hatch and wagon from the Focus lineup. :confuse: A big mistake I feel on Ford part because the market seems to be turning.

Is there just a market for X number of small hatches and wagons to be sold in the U.S.?

andre1969

there was a guy here at work who had one of those things. It was a later model though. I rode in it once. It didn't seem too horrible. It was a stick shift, so no doubt it felt faster than it really was, since it was more direct and jerky. The body rigidity gave me an uneasy feeling though. That thing flexed and shook and oilcanned worse than just about any other car I've ever seen. Except maybe for the hood of a '76 Eldorado convertible. :surprise:

andre1969

But then Ford goes and drops the hatch and wagon from the Focus lineup. A big mistake I feel on Ford part because the market seems to be turning.

Yeah, that is kinda dumb. I think with smaller cars, the hatch often works better than the sedan/coupe, both style-wise and from a practicality standpoint.

Actually, I could have used a hatchback last nite. We got a new printer at work, and were just going to throw the box that it came in away. I think the box was about 24x24x30". I was originally going to wait until a day when I had my pickup, so I could just throw it in the back. But, I figured, my '79 New Yorker is big enough, so surely it would fit, even if I had to drive home with the trunk open. Unfortunately, no dice. It wouldn't fit in the back seat, because the door opening was too small. Same with up front. And the dang thing wouldn't fit in the trunk, either! I think ordinarily it would have, but I had a full-sized copcar spare tire back there. The compact spare would have fit upright, tucked in against the quarter panel, where the trunk floor drops off outside the subframe rails. But the full-size spare rests on its side up front, and takes up just enough room that I couldn't get that box in. Ended up having to flatten it. I imagine most hatches though, would have been able to swallow that box with no trouble at all.

podred

One of a few main reasons I chose to purchase my 2008 Yaris, was that it was available as a 2 Door Hatchback.

Even though my initial impression was that it was ugly and a bit odd looking , it was that very characteristic that made it appealing as I knew I would become accustomed to it and I have. Around my city one just does not see that many, and I like that. Conversely the four door Yaris sedans are everywhere here. A very popular model.

Another reason that the Yaris 2dr hatchback continues to add to the fun of driving is the incredibly small turning radius. It's simply a lot of fun to drive and to park.

If Honda offered the Fit as a 2 Door Hatchback, I would have taken a hard look at it. Especially since the Honda's I've owned in the past were all a lot of fun. However I did look at and drive a Fit just for comparison with the Yaris. But since I have absolutely no need for a four door the Fit was out. Styling was too generic, too everyday.

Just my personal opinion, but I think that any two door is much sportier looking than a four door. However I do understand the economics behind the manufacturers tendencies to only offer a 4 door model, as they are indeed a bit more practical. Especially for a family where there are kids.

At the end of the day, I'm glad the mfgs are taking another run at bringing in small economical cars. While we talk a lot about fuel economy here, these cars are also a lot less expensive when it comes time to replace tires, brakes and things like that.

I have always had at least one hatchback in my collection of cars. They are amazing when it comes to carrying large objects. Even the smallest hatchback can carry quite a load.

Finally as far as why they stopped selling them here years ago, I do believe that the manufacturers where interesting in selling larger, more profitable models. The same reason that (in my opinion) Ford leaves most of what I perceive as their best small cars in the UK. They would much rather sell the big, profitable, beast like SUV's backed by the cheers from Chevron, Shell, and Exxon.

bumpy

But don't you wonder why they dropped those Civic hatchbacks and wagons?

They sold well enough to import from Japan in the 1980s, but not well enough to set up a separate US production line once the appreciating yen pushed them out of their price segment in the early '90s.

explorerx4

take out the spare and put in the back seat.

boaz47

"They sold well enough to import from Japan in the 1980s, but not well enough to set up a separate US production line once the appreciating yen pushed them out of their price segment in the early '90s."

Well that will always be the question. Will they be profitable? The dollar isn't doing that well right now and they expect new car sales to continue to drop. These small cars are not like sports cars that can hold on with very few examples being offered. They have to win a spot in the consumers heart. I tend to like some of the small cars as a possible second car. Like most American consumers I am not a big fan of two doors. Unless they come with a drop top as a sports car or roadster.

I realize the car market is in flux right now. We don't know what we will be driving in 10 years. But the only small car I find the least bit tempting is the Mini. Well maybe the Versa because they have managed to get so much room in a car about the size of a Focus Sedan. But for the rest, they haven't delivered on fuel mileage compared to fifteen years ago and the prices aren't tempting enough to give up the comfort of a bit bigger vehicle. But I am not a city driver so my requirements are different.

andre1969

take out the spare and put in the back seat.

Oh no, not on my rrrrrich Corrrrinthian leather. Kahn would have a fit! :P

oregonboy

Kahn would have a fit!

And we all know about The Wrath of Khan! :P

podred

RE: take out the spare and put in the back seat.

Had some extra time on my hands last weekend, and all my tools were clean, so I set about this project:

I read (take out the spare and put in the back seat)
so many times that I was brainwashed.....ha...ha... so I followed your suggestion.....well almost all of it.

I removed the spare tire, _and_ the back seat! Buddy my dog loves it !

Wow! .... now I have lots of cargo room in my 08 Yaris Hatchback. The best part is that I will never use it for carrying more than 2 people and cargo, or me and my dog as he gets the front passenger seat.....heh!

I weighed the stuff I removed and it was a surprising 65lbs ! This will probably increase my gas mileage a whopping .002 mpg....

guss

Are you going to carry a can of Fix-O-Flat ?

podred

Yes, that's what I do in my 06 Mini Cooper S, I've used it once and it works really well.

boaz47

While you have configured it much like an old CRX I don't think it will capture the hearts of the young drivers like the little Honda did. But I have had my eye on a CRX. A guy that used to work for me is trying to put a Integra 1.8 in it. Wasn't the Integra a 1.8? I forget.

bumpy

Mostly, though the first-gen had a 1.6 and the '92-93 GS-R had a 1.7L.

boaz47

All I know is those old CRXs are gold to some of the car guys. They have turned into hot rods of another generation.

lilengineerboy

While you have configured it much like an old CRX I don't think it will capture the hearts of the young drivers like the little Honda did. But I have had my eye on a CRX. A guy that used to work for me is trying to put a Integra 1.8 in it. Wasn't the Integra a 1.8? I forget.

Dropping the B16a (the 1.6L vtec motor from the 92-93 Integra GSR and Del Sol SI) is easy-peazy. The B18c (the 1.8l 94+ Integra GSR motor) is a bit more challenging but still something I could do with 2 intoxicated apes in my parents garage.

Definitely good times and definitely in the spirit of true hot rodding...just in an updated computerized world.

andre1969

Didn't Honda do something in the later years, though, to keep people from engine swapping. Not sure exactly, but I thought it had something to do with keeping people from swapping the RSX engine into the Civic?

nippononly

Yeah, the RSX engine spins in the opposite direction from the Civic's engine. Pretty nifty, huh?

That and the new standard security system in the RSX caused RSX theft rates to be WAY lower than those of the Integra before it.

Took another look at the Yaris 'S' 3-door and the Fit last night. Either would be a nice replacement for my Echo...hmm....I would need to pay to have cruise installed in the Yaris, because even the 'S' with power package doesn't have it. I figure it would still be $1000 cheaper than the Fit Sport, which is the only trim I am interested in. But the Yaris wouldn't handle as well, although it would look better in my opinion.

And of course, every time I am at the Honda dealer, my eyes stray to that Civic SI. I don't want a bigger car, and I don't particularly care that much about the extra power, but I sure appreciate that handling package and the looks of the thing. I really wish they would do an 'SI' treatment of the Fit!

bumpy

Aside from making the newer engines rotate the same direction as everyone else's, they also swapped the intake and exhaust orientation on the K-series (intake at the front, exhaust at the back).

bumpy

I would need to pay to have cruise installed in the Yaris, because even the 'S' with power package doesn't have it.

I don't think a car that small needs it. I can understand cruise on some domestic battle barge with a heavy pedal spring, but pretty much every subcompact has a light pedal with good throttle graduation. I tried it once in the S2000, and the only comfortable place to rest my right foot was on the pedal itself, which kinda obviates the need for cruise. :confuse:

boaz47

Sometimes small car do have space problems. But still the Cruise control in my Focus was a welcome relief. That and the number of people we see on the highway with a bad case of slinky foot

ateixeira

I weighed the stuff I removed and it was a surprising 65lbs ! This will probably increase my gas mileage a whopping .002 mpg....

nippononly

Sure, I hear ya'. But for me it is a deal-killer without cruise, I use my cruise almost every day in the Echo.

And this is what sucks: the Yaris S sedan with power package HAS cruise. The Yaris S HATCH with power package doesn't, even though it is exactly the same powertrain. Toyota has become SO infuriating with the myriad of little decisions just like this it keeps making WRONG.

Overall the Fit is a slicker package, but I prefer the looks of the Yaris hatch (and I won't settle for the above-average LEV smog emissions of the Fit). Conundrum...

bumpy

I use my cruise almost every day in the Echo.

Why? Cruise in that car would be about as useful as a searchlight in the A-pillar.

kyfdx

You can get a 4-door Yaris hatchback... in Canada..

stever

Cruise is not only useful for resting your foot, but I use mine around town all the time to avoid inadvertent speeding. Most of the roads here are 35 mph and I'll blow ten mph over that without thinking.

ateixeira

That would help in DC, with speed cameras on some 25mph zones. The flow of traffic goes 40+, and you'll get a ticket every time.

boaz47

I use cruise control for some of the same reasons you do. When driving to our place in the desert I have to exit the freeway and drive through a canyon for about 10 miles before entering the town. That canyon road is 4 lanes wide and posted at 55. Most of it is down hill and there are any number of places where the CHP can rest and pick us off as we exceed that posted speed limit on the down hill portions. As soon as I enter the canyon the cruise control goes on and I drive the same speed up or down the hill. The road is even listed on speedtrap.org.

nippononly

"Why? Cruise in that car would be about as useful as a searchlight in the A-pillar."

And yet I have never yet found a use for my A-pillar searchlight, but I use my cruise almost every day! ;-)

That is partly for the reason stated by my good colleagues and co-posters above: it helps regulate speed so I don't inadvertently speed on the highway. I do a lot of driving on rural highways, some of it related to my job.

stever

The Secrets of the $2,500 Car (AutoObserver)

boaz47

I just can't see a 32 HP car that tops out at 50 MPH coming here. And with no safety equipment?

stever

Me neither; the Tata is a bit off-topic in here, but its manufacturing techniques make the Smart look even more over-priced at $13,590.

snakeweasel

but I use my cruise almost every day!

I use cruise control rarely, very impractical in city driving and not a safe thing to use in anything near congested traffic. Only a few times a month when I get out of the metro area where traffic is light and few stops.

nippononly

A revised subcompact model that not only did NOT grow bigger than the previous model, but also LOST WEIGHT in the revise! :-)

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080215/FREE/529027598/1528/- - newsletter01

Yes, that's right, it's the next-gen Ford Fiesta, which the Europeans will have in their hot little hands in a matter of months, and which we might receive in sedan form in two long years here in the U.S., with a name change perhaps to Verve?

Looks good, and I hope they DO bring the 3-door over as well - that is said to be under consideration.

And wouldn't it be extra-cool if they brought the 1.6L diesel engine to the States in addition to what I am sure will be the standard engine, the 1.6L gas.

snakeweasel

Ok my 6 foot 3 240 pound frame fit inside with more than enough room to spare. The car handled very well and was rather smooth (although it did seem to let you know about potholes) and the back cargo area seemed to accept the golf bag with a little bit of difficulty. It was pretty quick, a lot more that I would have expected, I don't think it would have much trouble keeping up with traffic or entering an expressway. The transmission in automatic mode did make it seem like it lagged before it shifted (almost like taking you foot completly off the gas just before it shifted), but using the transmission in manual mode eliminated that.

All in all I liked the car and this just confirms my belief that this would make the perfect second "Commuter" car.

iluvmysephia1

how's the stereo system in the SmartFor? Pathetic or almost competent would probably be the answers to that, I would think.

bumpy

You can thank Mazda for that, since the Fiesta is a reskinned Mazda2. They also held the line on weight for the forthcoming 6 while enlarging it, and reportedly are going to put the next 3 on a diet.

kyfdx

Just found out that a large dealership group in Cincinnati is going to open a Smart dealership.. Opens in July...

As of last month, they didn't have a dealership planned for here.

snakeweasel

Didn't play around with the stereo system to much and had it off for most of the time. But when It was on I would say it was more than adequate. It sounded good but fell short of some systems I have seen in cars. I would hazard to say that unless you were one of those audiophiles that needed everything top notch and thought you could hear the difference between a $350 stereo and a $3,000 one you would be satisfied with it,

iluvmysephia1

I gotta tell ya guys. I saw Russell Crowe in a movie called 'A Good Day' that was set in France and Great Britain. Russell is a stocktrader manager from London who goes to France to inherit a Chateau from his Uncle. Of course, there's romance and plenty of humour in the movie. One of the sources of that humour is the fact that Crowe has to rent a car to get to this Chateau-vineyard out in the country of France. He hates the SmartForTwo that he rents and there is an underlying laughter watching him drive it maniac-ly around. But the car has a certian appeal, one that would either grab ya or not. But after seeing such a good look at the car in that movie I wouldn't say I hated the car, just that my automotive interests require a larger car. Not that much larger, in fact, subcompact or compact are my favorites. The new Ford Fiesta based on the Mazda2 platform is about as small as I would want to go.

BTW-the new 2010 Ford Fiesta coming to a Ford dealer near you is the best looking car from Ford since the 1965 Ford Mustang. I bought myself one of them in October of 1978, for my first car. That new Fiesta is styled nicely and hopefully Ford will stick to their offer of a 5-speed stick being one of the tranny offerings. I'm thinking they will. That Ford is a real looker and I have been looking to the domestics for this kind of car for...ummm...decades.