Agreed, the new Fiesta is a good looking device. Lot of the new Mondeo to the front end look, (no bad thing IMO), but heaven only knows what a Sedan will look like at the rear. The Focus Saloon, (Sedan), is pretty fugly and not much of a seller here in UK/Europe and I doubt there'll be a Fiesta Saloon. Why do they do it to you guys ?
New Fiesta will have to be good as it's in a pretty crowded sector and the competition is getting better almost daily. Diesel option, of course. No diesel in the line-up is almost a kiss of death over here, (but Honda still manage to survive without a diesel Jazz, (Fit). Even Subaru now has a diesel, (or it's imminent); same flat four so should be interesting.
News today is that Bentley are talking of dropping the Audi V12 TDi into the Continental GT - same engine that now graces the R8.
Like I said - not to have a diesel in the line-up is not good news............but some folks are disgusted by the very idea of an oil-burning Bentley. Me ? I think it's a great idea and I'm just waiting for the first diesel Porsche, (Cayenne would be my bet).
Sorry to wander off-topic but that's the end of this letter from the small island that has Europe off its coast.
have you guys seen the new Kia cee'd over there with the 1.6L diesel engine option yet? Of course, America won't be getting the new pro_cee'd or cee'd with the diesel motors but, Kia promises a new Kia Spectra(codenamed TD) with a regular ICE that is in the works for 2009 that camouflaged peeks of look promising so far. Kia has that new factory in Slovakia that is key to everything Kia-Europe right now. The Kia Pro_ceed won out over 8 other cars as Car of the Year in Europe, according to Kia World's website. For economy but also looks and performance, and the U.S. will not be getting the cee'd.
But what's the word from the UK on Kia? Are they catching on over there? They're not the same beast they were when I bought my first Kia, a 1999 Kia Sephia sedan that I derive my glorious nickname on Edmunds from.
Oh, and just to be clear about this to everyone, I mean that for real, that I love my Sephia. That's not tonque-in-cheek. It's just that when I decided that I loved my Sephia about 2001(after I bought my baby some 70,000 mile Yokohama radials and some Konig Diva wheels in a set from Discount Tire in 2001...and experienced some greatly improved handling and performance out of the small imported sedan)I didn't have a lot of...umm...company, let's just say. Kia offers an improved product now with an unbeatable Warranty and still low prices. I feel that Kia's future is now so bright they best be wearing some Burton Cumming's shades. :shades:
I have always been a big fan of the Euro Version Ford Fiesta. However that said, after looking at the new upcoming model I do see one overwhelming problem......
Yes.... you guessed it, there IS NO PROBLEM.......
I was disappointed that it is rated at only 33/40 mpg - and on premium fuel to boot. That's really not much better than a Fit or Yaris which hold 4 people and are much more practical.
the Smart is about 20% better than the nearest non-hybrid competitor, the Yaris (IOW, the Yaris will use about 20% more gas than the Smart). The Smart has about the same FE rating as the old Civic HX, now discontinued (thanks Honda).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
where did you come up with 20%. just looking at hwy numbers, the yaris is at 36 mpg and smart is at 40, so thats an 11% improvement. if you factor in the premium gas, wheres the value?
looking at fueleconomy.gov, the yaris 5 speed drivers average 37+ mpg and thats not a even a pure hwy average.
we'll have to see what real world #s are for smart, but a large number of yaris drivers are easily exceeding the old epa numbers of 34/40. my lowest average, even in the michigan winter, has been 40.32 mpg, at about 70% hwy.
i dont see the value in the smart unless it come in at $10k.
Well, I just used my calculator, and it is actually 15%. Smart is automatic-only, so you should compare the Yaris automatic figure of 35.
Yaris uses 40/35 as much gas as Smart, or 115% as much (15% more, IOW).
If you use combined city-hwy figures, the math is going to be on the order of 36.5/31, which is 118%, so for most folks the Smart advantage is going to be more like 18%.
If you consider that the Smart is likely to be bought mainly for intraurban use and you consequently compare EPA city ratings, the gap widens, with Yaris (rated 27 mpg) using 23% more gas than the Smart (rated 33 mpg).
Too many numbers, my head is spinning! :-P
Of course, many people will easily exceed the 2008 EPA ratings (I know I would), which will change these equations. The EPA ratings provide a poor basis for comparison of small-engined cars these days, IMO.
I wonder if Smart MUST have premium or is only hp-rated for premium and may actually use any grade of gas down to 87. The latter is the case with most cars these days except for sports cars and a few high-end luxury cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Fit is rates 34 Highway and the Yaris is 36 highway. So in city driving the Smart essentially meets the Fit and almost hit the Yaris highway figures. So we are talking about 20%+/- better fuel economy with the Smart.
Also as a second commuter car how often will more than 2 people be in it. FWIW as a commuter car mine has yet to see a second person in it, and I know I am not alone by a long shot.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But premium fuel costs 10% more, so half that advantage evaporates.
Where I am its only 20 cents more a gallon and that remains constant. Thats only like 6.5% and will grow smaller (percentage wise) as the price of gas increases.
So for about the same price, you give up 2 seats to gain 10% in fuel savings.
I would gladly give up the two seats that are never used for better gas mileage in my daily commuter car.
Also FWIW the Smart is less expensive than the Fit or Yaris.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you exceed EPA numbers in a Yaris why can't you in a Smart? I have beaten EPA numbers in every car I have had, I cannot think that the Smart will be any different.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
MINI - MSRP : $18,050 Specs: 118hp / 2546.lbs = 21.5 power to weight ratio.
Yaris - MSRP: $11,350 Specs: 106hp / 2295.lbs = 21.6 power to weight ratio.
That's a massive $ 6,700 more for choosing the MINI, which has no noticeable advantage in power. Not only that but you are NOT buying a Toyota, thus your maintenance and repair bills will be BMW in size, trust me I know of what I speak. Total cost of ownership will be significantly greater than the Yaris.
You had better want it badly to pay that kind of a premium.
Please don't get me wrong, as I am the original owner of a 2005 MINI - Cooper "S" I ordered this car to my specs with an MSRP of $26,490.
A whopping $15,140 more than the Yaris..... :surprise:
However as most of us know the Cooper S has 168 hp which really makes this MINI the fun to drive car that it is.
As a result I do not even compare the two as they are different cars for different target markets.
I purchased the Yaris for the same reason I purchased my new F430 Ferrari. Because I'm a very passionate auto enthusiast / ex racer / addict.
I love to buy cars of all sizes, types, and price points, to have the unique experience that the various models bring to the party.
The Mini is nearly half a ton heavier than the smart, despite its name. Not much fun in that, especially compared to a small-wheelbase car with the tightest turning circle that can be legally driven on US highways.
"The Mini is nearly half a ton heavier than the smart, despite its name. Not much fun in that, especially compared to a small-wheelbase car with the tightest turning circle that can be legally driven on US highways."
That might be the very first time I have ever heard anyone say the Mini Cooper S wasn't much fun to drive or that the Smart in any way would be as sporty.
I've seen premium cost 30 cents more than regular, but I was just tossing out a number.
Let me check on gasbuddy.com for my zip code...
OK, in my decidedly unscientific look at prices, I find 5 gas stations near me with gas under $3. For premium, I can only find 4 stations with premium gas for less than $3.30.
So in conclusion, my 10% claim is more than fair, at least around me.
Remember these cars have small gas tanks, so you don't want to drive all around town to find cheap gas. Not to mention the fuel wasted while driving to do that.
It seems that this thread has turned into a matter of parsing words, splitting hairs, and challenging the other persons method of calculating gas mileage. Therefore the thread is adrift in a sea of fuel economy numbers which vary so little that one wonders what happened to the discussion of the merits of each car?
What about the driving experience? About living with the car on a day to day basis? About the pros and cons of each cars capability to carry passengers and cargo according to each drivers needs? About total cost of ownership. Tire size and type for example can make quite a difference in the replacement costs. It seems that we have so many other fascinating and enjoyable topics to cover.
what would a base Mini Cooper be like to live with on a daily basis? I know it would give up a lot compared to the S model in terms of acceleration, but would it still be more fun to drive than something like a Yaris, Corolla, Fit, Versa, etc?
"Tire size and type for example can make quite a difference in the replacement costs"
This is a very good point. I was somewhat shocked when I priced out a set of the tiny 14" tires that the Echo uses, to discover that they would be $300 out the door including balancing. $300??? For those tiny tires?
Then I had a friend price out the 16" tires on his Accord and he was most of the way to $500 out the door. So there is a difference, definitely, in maintenance costs on a small car vs large ones, and especially vs vans and trucks/SUVs.
The new Highlander has 17" tires standard, with 18" ones optional. That will be a big YIKES! come replacement time.
(And yes, I understand all these prices would be reduced if I shopped Discount Tire online or went to Costco - that's not my point. Even at those venues the price for small tires is a lot less than for bigger ones, especially since the bigger the vehicle and the tire, the more common it is for the tire also to carry a higher speed rating and consequently cost even more than the touring tires on my Echo)
Hey podred: what kind of price range would you be in to replace the tires on the F430? Just curious to know what kind of ballpark that is. Probably the kind of park you wear a tux to, eh?! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is a very good point. I was somewhat shocked when I priced out a set of the tiny 14" tires that the Echo uses, to discover that they would be $300 out the door including balancing. $300??? For those tiny tires?
Are those premium tires or something, though? I've had to buy two complete sets of tires for my Intrepid. First, around 30K miles, then around 76K. Each time, I just ordered them online, and had a local mechanic put them on. It was about $250 for the tires, and another $50-60 to mount and balance. First time around I got General Continentals, and the second time around it was Yokohama Avids. The size is 225/60/R16. I remember pricing the OEM tires, which were Eagle GAs, and they would've come out to about $500, out the door. And they probably would've been worn down to racing slicks in another 30K miles, just like the first set.
I did have to get another set of tires fairly recently, in a piecemeal sort of way. The Sunday before Columbus Day, 2006, someone stole a wheel off the car while it was in a parking garage in Annapolis, MD. I found a junkyard tire/wheel/hubcap/lugnuts (they took EVERYTHING when they jacked my wheel. :mad: ) for 80 bucks. The tire was another one of those danged Eagle GA's, so I'm sure it'll be the first to go. About 2-3 months later, I let my roommate borrow that car, and he hopped a curb, popping yet another tire. I think the replacement for that one was about 80 bucks. And then just this past summer, the two remaining Yokohamas were getting up there in age and mileage, so I had them replaced. I think that was about $180 for the two of them, at Sears.
I got new tires for my '85 Silverado a few years back. Oversized 255/70/R15's. Stock was 235/75/R15. I ordered them online and had my mechanic put them on. I think the tires were about $375, and another $70-80 to mount/balance them and dispose of the old ones.
Both prices were with local tire stores, NOT Costco, not online discounters (see, yours was the sort of comment I was kind of hoping to head off with my comment in parentheses). The 14" tires for the Echo were the same ones it has on it now which I consider to have done great service - 40K miles so far and will certainly do at least another 20K, warranted to last 65K for treadwear. I think they are Toyos but it has been a while so I forget exactly. The Accord tires were Michelin Energys, the same ones it came with from the factory. I think that is a 215/60/16 V-rated tire.
Point is, if you had priced the little 14" tires for the Echo at your online discounter, I bet they would have been substantially less than the ones you bought for your Intrepid...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Point is, if you had priced the little 14" tires for the Echo at your online discounter, I bet they would have been substantially less than the ones you bought for your Intrepid...
Hmmm, looks like tires have gone up a bit since I last priced them. I just searched discount tire for 225/60/R16's, and the cheapest tire was $79. In contrast, my old Yokohamas were about $62-63 apiece.
Cheapest Echo tire they have listed, in the stock 175/65/R14 size, is $48. So yeah, that's a savings of ~$30 per tire right there. That can add up. In a case such as with my Intrepid, which has now gone through three sets of tires (the Continentals, Yokohamas, and now the Mix & Match), that'd be like $360.
I thought $300 OTD was high at the local place, until I started hearing what others were paying for tires. Tires are just way expensive these days, and that can constitute a big difference in running costs between large vehicles and subcompacts over the course of 5 years or more.
Plus, the local tire shop includes free lifetime rotation and road hazard warranty for that price.
There are lots of little reasons I like that little Echo. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
what would a base Mini Cooper be like to live with on a daily basis? I know it would give up a lot compared to the S model in terms of acceleration, but would it still be more fun to drive than something like a Yaris, Corolla, Fit, Versa, etc?
When I brought home my new Mini Cooper S in 2005, my wife fell in love with it. She asked me to buy the regular Cooper for her as she is a very conservative driver, so I did. It was reasonably fun to drive but heavy. The lighter Yaris makes a big difference when it comes to acceleration off the line, steering response, and braking. It's amazing how the lighter Yaris really feels so zippy.
Now we have the 2008 Yaris "S" 2 door hatchback, which we both love and prefer over her MINI. So I have a deal working to sell her MINI and replace it with a Yaris S just like mine only in White, whereas mine is RED. I had no idea when I bought the Yaris that I would end up using it as a daily driver. It's just so much fun and because you sit up high, the view is ideal. Another fantastic aspect of this car is the comfort of the sport seats in the S model. Plenty of leg room, and a nice reach to the steering wheel as opposed to feeling as though it's too close to your chest. And I'm 6'2", which reminds me of another advantage. It's 60" tall compared to 55" for the MINI. The advantage of that is the door openings are taller and one can get in and out of the car without having to duck down, like on the MINI. The visibility is also much better than the MINI. It seems that the more I write about this car the more I remember about all of it's advantages. Speaking of the tall roof line, easy entry and comfort, one also has much better outward visibility because of the high "greenhouse" (windows).
It's so much fun to park as it hardly takes any space at all. The power is just perfect for in town and for those times when I feel a little competitive I can drive away from nearly anything from 0 to 50mph. The Variable Valve Timing with Intelligence that Toyota created is a brilliant system which produces plenty of power down low. That in combination with the "intelligent" automatic is a combination that is much nicer than I could have every imagined. Especially since I'm used to the Six Speed Manual in my MINI. The Yaris's auto trans is so efficient that there is no perceptible loss of horsepower.
Handling wise it's no sports car like My Mini Cooper S with Sports Suspension, however it's much better that the standard Mini Cooper that costs nearly $7,000 more than and identically equipped Yaris. I have a lot of fun in the twisty mountain roads that are just 10 miles from home. It's really an amazing car for such a low price. The more I drive the Yaris the more I like it and I've had it for four months, yet it continues to make me smile and feel happy when driving it. I'm sure part of it is how any of us feel, when we get a real bargain on a purchase. This car just feels like and drives like a much more expensive car. Believe me I know as I have a new 7 series BMW and I'm not suggesting it's that good but the point is, when driving around town it's not that far off from the BMW. What a shocker!
Another True Surprise... is the number of thumbs up I get from other drivers when on the road, as well as the people that come over to look at it when I'm getting gas. I think the bright red does help attract attention, and yet I had no idea that it would draw any attention at all. After all I certainly didn't buy it for that. I bought it after I test drove it because it really surprised me in the fun to drive category and still does. It's just one of those cars that puts a smile on my face every time I approach it and get in to drive away.
Thanks for the great description. Light weight makes so many things better. Have you given any thought to the TRD shocks/struts/springs/sway bar?
Your Welcome!
And....... you are a great mind reader....lol
Actually I just purchased another Yaris S hatchback, as I finally found one with a 5-speed. This is going to be the project car. A car to take out with the Mini S on track day, just for the fun of it and see what the differences are like once the Yaris is done.
I have an old racer friend that now works at TRD and he's going to get the suspension pieces and anything else that's available. I'm having the car transported to a shop that does most of my hop up work, as we are pulling the motor, trans, suspension, steering, etc and going to rework things. Dyno it when were done and see how close we can get to the power output of the my Mini Cooper S, if not more. It's also going out for paint as the only color I could find was white which is not bad but I might as well put a custom paint job on it as well.
It will be fun to see what the result is. One thing I know for sure, the gas mileage is going to plummet...... :P
Hey podred: what kind of price range would you be in to replace the tires on the F430? Just curious to know what kind of ballpark that is.
I have the F430 Coupe which is a tad bit heavier than the open car. I have purchased a set of 4 Pirelli PZero Rosso to have on hand. Pirelli sent them to me in sealed plastic bags, so as to store well. Since they are special order I like to have a spare set on hand. However, unless one of the tires on the car gets ruined, I will be unpacking them and mounting them as replacements for the originals in less than 6 to 8 months as they do not last long.
I will be driving this car a fair amount and expect around 750 to 1,500 miles (depending on type of driving) before replacement is required. This car will also see a fair amount of track time, which needless to say accelerates the wear significantly.
Fronts are 235/35-19 @ $300.00 each Rears are 285/35-19 @ $413.00 each
The set on my Ferrari F50 lasted just over 900 miles.
While I can't directly compare it to a Cooper (I have never, nor will I ever, drive a Cooper just to small) I have driven the Smart and it handles really good, its peppy and really fun to drive. I only wish I could have driven it more.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Oh I wouldn't say the range is to bad, that 250 miles is more than I drive in a typical week so stopping once a week is no issue for me (I usually fill up Sunday afternoon regardless).
I used to have a van that would go 500 miles on a tank, however it got about half of what the Smart would get per gallon.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"The power is just perfect for in town and for those times when I feel a little competitive I can drive away from nearly anything from 0 to 50mph."
I don't know you that well and I hope I don't offend you at all but I do spend more than a few summer afternoons at the 1/8 and 1/4 mile strips locally. I used to run my PT fairly stock and every now and then my Focus. I have lost more than one race to cars that would surprise me. But I can't remember even one time having a Yaris beat me through any gear let alone to 50. The Focus would catch me by second gear and nip me through the light. On a mountain or canyon road I simply couldn't catch the Focus but still had no problem with any Yaris or Echo.
Now I will fully admit I have not sat in the seat of the Yaris running against My PT or Focus to see if the driver had anything to do with it. But it is almost enough to get me to Pick up a car and driver to see what they did in the 1/4 with a Yaris.
I do like the Yaris better than the old Echo but not that much better.
well with 106 HP you would expect it would need something like a manual or at the very least a CVT.
Still a Yaris hardly seems like a car to compare to a Cooper S.
US news and world report said the acceleration on the Yaris was Sluggish and rated it 22 of 28 in Affordable small cars.
Technoride said the Yaris S had a lackluster drive train and spongy suspension.
Car and Driver said the Yaris S rolls and wallows and rated it Behind the Kia Reo in its tests of sub compacts.
It might make a very good commuter car and with a lot of work you might make a pretty good autocross car but you will be starting behind the curve and will still have to try and make a 106 HP motor perform like a much bigger motor. Does TRD make a turbo for the Yaris? So it will be a good idea to gut the little puppy and replace everything.
Comments
New Fiesta will have to be good as it's in a pretty crowded sector and the competition is getting better almost daily. Diesel option, of course. No diesel in the line-up is almost a kiss of death over here, (but Honda still manage to survive without a diesel Jazz, (Fit). Even Subaru now has a diesel, (or it's imminent); same flat four so should be interesting.
News today is that Bentley are talking of dropping the Audi V12 TDi into the Continental GT - same engine that now graces the R8.
Like I said - not to have a diesel in the line-up is not good news............but some folks are disgusted by the very idea of an oil-burning Bentley. Me ? I think it's a great idea and I'm just waiting for the first diesel Porsche, (Cayenne would be my bet).
Sorry to wander off-topic but that's the end of this letter from the small island that has Europe off its coast.
But what's the word from the UK on Kia? Are they catching on over there? They're not the same beast they were when I bought my first Kia, a 1999 Kia Sephia sedan that I derive my glorious nickname on Edmunds from.
Oh, and just to be clear about this to everyone, I mean that for real, that I love my Sephia. That's not tonque-in-cheek. It's just that when I decided that I loved my Sephia about 2001(after I bought my baby some 70,000 mile Yokohama radials and some Konig Diva wheels in a set from Discount Tire in 2001...and experienced some greatly improved handling and performance out of the small imported sedan)I didn't have a lot of...umm...company, let's just say. Kia offers an improved product now with an unbeatable Warranty and still low prices. I feel that Kia's future is now so bright they best be wearing some Burton Cumming's shades. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Yes.... you guessed it, there IS NO PROBLEM.......
Except we don't have it over hear NOW.......
Not just an economy car, but also a fun to drive car.
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28city 34hwy
Honda Fit 4 cyl, 1.5 L, Automatic 5-spd, Regular
27city 34hwy
Honda Fit 4 cyl, 1.5 L, Automatic (S5), Regular
27city 33hwy
From www.fueleconomy.gov
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So for about the same price, you give up 2 seats to gain 10% in fuel savings.
Won't be worth it to most people.
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looking at fueleconomy.gov, the yaris 5 speed drivers average 37+ mpg and thats not a even a pure hwy average.
we'll have to see what real world #s are for smart, but a large number of yaris drivers are easily exceeding the old epa numbers of 34/40. my lowest average, even in the michigan winter, has been 40.32 mpg, at about 70% hwy.
i dont see the value in the smart unless it come in at $10k.
Yaris uses 40/35 as much gas as Smart, or 115% as much (15% more, IOW).
If you use combined city-hwy figures, the math is going to be on the order of 36.5/31, which is 118%, so for most folks the Smart advantage is going to be more like 18%.
If you consider that the Smart is likely to be bought mainly for intraurban use and you consequently compare EPA city ratings, the gap widens, with Yaris (rated 27 mpg) using 23% more gas than the Smart (rated 33 mpg).
Too many numbers, my head is spinning! :-P
Of course, many people will easily exceed the 2008 EPA ratings (I know I would), which will change these equations. The EPA ratings provide a poor basis for comparison of small-engined cars these days, IMO.
I wonder if Smart MUST have premium or is only hp-rated for premium and may actually use any grade of gas down to 87. The latter is the case with most cars these days except for sports cars and a few high-end luxury cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also as a second commuter car how often will more than 2 people be in it. FWIW as a commuter car mine has yet to see a second person in it, and I know I am not alone by a long shot.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where I am its only 20 cents more a gallon and that remains constant. Thats only like 6.5% and will grow smaller (percentage wise) as the price of gas increases.
So for about the same price, you give up 2 seats to gain 10% in fuel savings.
I would gladly give up the two seats that are never used for better gas mileage in my daily commuter car.
Also FWIW the Smart is less expensive than the Fit or Yaris.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
28 city, 37 highway, 32 combined (EPA) and you'll actually enjoy driving it!
Get a Clubman, same mileage, and more space to boot!
To small.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Here's why:
MINI - MSRP : $18,050 Specs: 118hp / 2546.lbs = 21.5 power to weight ratio.
Yaris - MSRP: $11,350 Specs: 106hp / 2295.lbs = 21.6 power to weight ratio.
That's a massive $ 6,700 more for choosing the MINI, which has no noticeable advantage in power. Not only that but you are NOT buying a Toyota, thus your maintenance and repair bills will be BMW in size, trust me I know of what I speak. Total cost of ownership will be significantly greater than the Yaris.
You had better want it badly to pay that kind of a premium.
Please don't get me wrong, as I am the original owner of a 2005 MINI - Cooper "S"
I ordered this car to my specs with an MSRP of $26,490.
A whopping $15,140 more than the Yaris..... :surprise:
However as most of us know the Cooper S has 168 hp which really makes this
MINI the fun to drive car that it is.
As a result I do not even compare the two as they are different cars for different
target markets.
I purchased the Yaris for the same reason I purchased my new F430 Ferrari.
Because I'm a very passionate auto enthusiast / ex racer / addict.
I love to buy cars of all sizes, types, and price points, to have the unique experience that the various models bring to the party.
Cheers.....
That might be the very first time I have ever heard anyone say the Mini Cooper S wasn't much fun to drive or that the Smart in any way would be as sporty.
So for about the same price, you give up 2 seats to gain 10% in fuel savings.
Won't be worth it to most people.
Yes, that is basically my point.
Let me check on gasbuddy.com for my zip code...
OK, in my decidedly unscientific look at prices, I find 5 gas stations near me with gas under $3. For premium, I can only find 4 stations with premium gas for less than $3.30.
So in conclusion, my 10% claim is more than fair, at least around me.
Remember these cars have small gas tanks, so you don't want to drive all around town to find cheap gas. Not to mention the fuel wasted while driving to do that.
I'll stick with 10%, then.
B, you don't drive until the tank is completely empty, else you might overheat the fuel pump (which is cooled by the fuel).
So using 6-7 gallons you have a range of ~250 miles, about the same as my Miata.
Pathetic range, basically. I have to get gas way too often, IMO.
Compare that to my van - I get 400-500 miles per tank, and can fill up once every 3 weeks or so.
I'll take a 6.5-7% rate of return on my money just about anytime. And especially lately. :shades:
What about the driving experience? About living with the car on a day to day basis? About the pros and cons of each cars capability to carry passengers and cargo according to each drivers needs? About total cost of ownership. Tire size and type for example can make quite a difference in the replacement costs. It seems that we have so many other fascinating and enjoyable topics to cover.
Simply my observation for whatever it's worth....
Sorry... loads more fun than any of them..
IMHO, of course...
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This is a very good point. I was somewhat shocked when I priced out a set of the tiny 14" tires that the Echo uses, to discover that they would be $300 out the door including balancing. $300??? For those tiny tires?
Then I had a friend price out the 16" tires on his Accord and he was most of the way to $500 out the door. So there is a difference, definitely, in maintenance costs on a small car vs large ones, and especially vs vans and trucks/SUVs.
The new Highlander has 17" tires standard, with 18" ones optional. That will be a big YIKES! come replacement time.
(And yes, I understand all these prices would be reduced if I shopped Discount Tire online or went to Costco - that's not my point. Even at those venues the price for small tires is a lot less than for bigger ones, especially since the bigger the vehicle and the tire, the more common it is for the tire also to carry a higher speed rating and consequently cost even more than the touring tires on my Echo)
Hey podred: what kind of price range would you be in to replace the tires on the F430? Just curious to know what kind of ballpark that is. Probably the kind of park you wear a tux to, eh?! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Are those premium tires or something, though? I've had to buy two complete sets of tires for my Intrepid. First, around 30K miles, then around 76K. Each time, I just ordered them online, and had a local mechanic put them on. It was about $250 for the tires, and another $50-60 to mount and balance. First time around I got General Continentals, and the second time around it was Yokohama Avids. The size is 225/60/R16. I remember pricing the OEM tires, which were Eagle GAs, and they would've come out to about $500, out the door. And they probably would've been worn down to racing slicks in another 30K miles, just like the first set.
I did have to get another set of tires fairly recently, in a piecemeal sort of way. The Sunday before Columbus Day, 2006, someone stole a wheel off the car while it was in a parking garage in Annapolis, MD. I found a junkyard tire/wheel/hubcap/lugnuts (they took EVERYTHING when they jacked my wheel. :mad: ) for 80 bucks. The tire was another one of those danged Eagle GA's, so I'm sure it'll be the first to go. About 2-3 months later, I let my roommate borrow that car, and he hopped a curb, popping yet another tire. I think the replacement for that one was about 80 bucks. And then just this past summer, the two remaining Yokohamas were getting up there in age and mileage, so I had them replaced. I think that was about $180 for the two of them, at Sears.
I got new tires for my '85 Silverado a few years back. Oversized 255/70/R15's. Stock was 235/75/R15. I ordered them online and had my mechanic put them on. I think the tires were about $375, and another $70-80 to mount/balance them and dispose of the old ones.
The Accord tires were Michelin Energys, the same ones it came with from the factory. I think that is a 215/60/16 V-rated tire.
Point is, if you had priced the little 14" tires for the Echo at your online discounter, I bet they would have been substantially less than the ones you bought for your Intrepid...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
edit - the cheapest tires were less, but they were closeouts (Blizzaks and something they had 3 of... :surprise: )
Hmmm, looks like tires have gone up a bit since I last priced them. I just searched discount tire for 225/60/R16's, and the cheapest tire was $79. In contrast, my old Yokohamas were about $62-63 apiece.
Cheapest Echo tire they have listed, in the stock 175/65/R14 size, is $48. So yeah, that's a savings of ~$30 per tire right there. That can add up. In a case such as with my Intrepid, which has now gone through three sets of tires (the Continentals, Yokohamas, and now the Mix & Match), that'd be like $360.
Plus, the local tire shop includes free lifetime rotation and road hazard warranty for that price.
There are lots of little reasons I like that little Echo. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
When I brought home my new Mini Cooper S in 2005, my wife fell in love with it. She asked me to buy the regular Cooper for her as she is a very conservative driver, so I did. It was reasonably fun to drive but heavy. The lighter Yaris makes a big difference when it comes to acceleration off the line, steering response, and braking. It's amazing how the lighter Yaris really feels so zippy.
Now we have the 2008 Yaris "S" 2 door hatchback, which we both love and prefer over her MINI. So I have a deal working to sell her MINI and replace it with a Yaris S just like mine only in White, whereas mine is RED. I had no idea when I bought the Yaris that I would end up using it as a daily driver. It's just so much fun and because you sit up high, the view is ideal. Another fantastic aspect of this car is the comfort of the sport seats in the S model. Plenty of leg room, and a nice reach to the steering wheel as opposed to feeling as though it's too close to your chest. And I'm 6'2", which reminds me of another advantage. It's 60" tall compared to 55" for the MINI. The advantage of that is the door openings are taller and one can get in and out of the car without having to duck down, like on the MINI. The visibility is also much better than the MINI. It seems that the more I write about this car the more I remember about all of it's advantages. Speaking of the tall roof line, easy entry and comfort, one also has much better outward visibility because of the high "greenhouse" (windows).
It's so much fun to park as it hardly takes any space at all. The power is just perfect for in town and for those times when I feel a little competitive I can drive away from nearly anything from 0 to 50mph. The Variable Valve Timing with Intelligence that Toyota created is a brilliant system which produces plenty of power down low. That in combination with the "intelligent" automatic is a combination that is much nicer than I could have every imagined. Especially since I'm used to the Six Speed Manual in my MINI. The Yaris's auto trans is so efficient that there is no perceptible loss of horsepower.
Handling wise it's no sports car like My Mini Cooper S with Sports Suspension, however it's much better that the standard Mini Cooper that costs nearly $7,000 more than and identically equipped Yaris. I have a lot of fun in the twisty mountain roads that are just 10 miles from home. It's really an amazing car for such a low price. The more I drive the Yaris the more I like it and I've had it for four months, yet it continues to make me smile and feel happy when driving it. I'm sure part of it is how any of us feel, when we get a real bargain on a purchase. This car just feels like and drives like a much more expensive car. Believe me I know as I have a new 7 series BMW and I'm not suggesting it's that good but the point is, when driving around town it's not that far off from the BMW. What a shocker!
Another True Surprise... is the number of thumbs up I get from other drivers when on the road, as well as the people that come over to look at it when I'm getting gas.
I think the bright red does help attract attention, and yet I had no idea that it would draw any attention at all. After all I certainly didn't buy it for that. I bought it after I test drove it because it really surprised me in the fun to drive category and still does. It's just one of those cars that puts a smile on my face every time I approach it and get in to drive away.
Who knew?............
Your Welcome!
And....... you are a great mind reader....lol
Actually I just purchased another Yaris S hatchback, as I finally found one with a 5-speed. This is going to be the project car. A car to take out with the Mini S on track day, just for the fun of it and see what the differences are like once the Yaris is done.
I have an old racer friend that now works at TRD and he's going to get the suspension pieces and anything else that's available. I'm having the car transported to a shop that does most of my hop up work, as we are pulling the motor, trans, suspension, steering, etc and going to rework things. Dyno it when were done and see how close we can get to the power output of the my Mini Cooper S, if not more. It's also going out for paint as the only color I could find was white which is not bad but I might as well put a custom paint job on it as well.
It will be fun to see what the result is. One thing I know for sure, the gas mileage is going to plummet...... :P
Wow! sounds serious..... tell us more....
I have the F430 Coupe which is a tad bit heavier than the open car.
I have purchased a set of 4 Pirelli PZero Rosso to have on hand.
Pirelli sent them to me in sealed plastic bags, so as to store well.
Since they are special order I like to have a spare set on hand.
However, unless one of the tires on the car gets ruined, I will be unpacking them and mounting them as replacements for the originals in less than 6 to 8 months as they do not last long.
I will be driving this car a fair amount and expect around 750 to 1,500 miles (depending on type of driving) before replacement is required. This car will also see a fair amount of track time, which needless to say accelerates the wear significantly.
Fronts are 235/35-19 @ $300.00 each
Rears are 285/35-19 @ $413.00 each
The set on my Ferrari F50 lasted just over 900 miles.
Cheers......
While I can't directly compare it to a Cooper (I have never, nor will I ever, drive a Cooper just to small) I have driven the Smart and it handles really good, its peppy and really fun to drive. I only wish I could have driven it more.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I used to have a van that would go 500 miles on a tank, however it got about half of what the Smart would get per gallon.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't know you that well and I hope I don't offend you at all but I do spend more than a few summer afternoons at the 1/8 and 1/4 mile strips locally. I used to run my PT fairly stock and every now and then my Focus. I have lost more than one race to cars that would surprise me. But I can't remember even one time having a Yaris beat me through any gear let alone to 50. The Focus would catch me by second gear and nip me through the light. On a mountain or canyon road I simply couldn't catch the Focus but still had no problem with any Yaris or Echo.
Now I will fully admit I have not sat in the seat of the Yaris running against My PT or Focus to see if the driver had anything to do with it. But it is almost enough to get me to Pick up a car and driver to see what they did in the 1/4 with a Yaris.
I do like the Yaris better than the old Echo but not that much better.
Still a Yaris hardly seems like a car to compare to a Cooper S.
US news and world report said the acceleration on the Yaris was Sluggish and rated it 22 of 28 in Affordable small cars.
Technoride said the Yaris S had a lackluster drive train and spongy suspension.
Car and Driver said the Yaris S rolls and wallows and rated it Behind the Kia Reo in its tests of sub compacts.
It might make a very good commuter car and with a lot of work you might make a pretty good autocross car but you will be starting behind the curve and will still have to try and make a 106 HP motor perform like a much bigger motor. Does TRD make a turbo for the Yaris? So it will be a good idea to gut the little puppy and replace everything.